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On October 17 2012 17:11 Akhee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:09 dynwar7 wrote:
Destiny can think/say what he wants....but only time will tell if SC2 is truly going to die or not...
So pessimistic... it already started to die, viewer number has never been so bad, no real way to come back from that even when kespa + hots is coming.... why dont you believe its dying?
Define so bad. I don't see a big tournament with number less than 30k recently. And please don't compare the number to that of LoL or DotA2. That's different genre.
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On October 17 2012 16:58 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 16:52 Jerubaal wrote:
So you're saying the reason BW was so big is because people were playing BGH a lot? Ok... I started playing Starcraft in 1998. I didn't start playing low money 1v1 games until around 2008.
Even Idra state multiple time that he started by playing a lot of money maps in broodwar before starting "real" competitive 1v1. Blizzard seriously understimated the importance of the map making community and its support, I think that now it's too late to do anything since most of the map makers are extremely disillusioned about this game.
I tried to see if the arcade system improved things, but honestly it's still shit.
An example of what map makers still have to deal with (Maverck, the guy who made the sc2bw mod):
game modes (1v1,2v2,etc, observer slots) are beyond broken. they have been for a long time, i've tried so many different ways and none of them work.
Im tired of waiting for Blizzard to fix this stuff. it takes them years.
I'll have another look at it however.
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Blizzard fucked up so hard in their new generation of games in SC2 and D3.
A far cry from the communal enjoyment one could experience via BW and D2. BW was actually just as much a fun, easily-accessible team game as LoL back in the day. Even easier, you could just hop on LAN and play 3v3 BGH at a net cafe. You can't do anything REMOTELY close to that on sc2 anymore. The experience isn't the same. Sigh... this fucking company Blizzard has to learn to not try to fix what's not broken.
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On October 17 2012 16:47 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 16:42 larse wrote:To address one of the problems that Destiny pointed out in his post, I propose a new ladder system that presumably will be fun for the more casual players and still good for the hardcores and pros. If you have more better ideas, please help to develop this. Also, sorry about the poor English. As Destiny said, one thing that prevents more people from playing SC2 is that the ladder is most a place of frustration for the casuals and there are no progressive rewards for the players. To address this, the new system tries to make playing ladder games to have a feeling of progression and reward even when you lost. The new system is as the following: 1. Add "Ladder Experience" and "Ladder Credits" in addition to the existing "Ladder Points" 2. "Ladder Points" is the same as the current one with MMR and Bonus points and all that, so hardcores and pros are not effected at all. 3. You earn "Ladder Experience" and can level up by playing ladder games. You will get the same amount of "Ladder Experience" and progress to higher levels regardless of win or loss. 4. You earn "Ladder Credits" regardless of win or loss. You earn more credits when winning and earn less when losing. But you don't lose credits (you lose them by purchasing in-game goods) 5. Add 5 tiers of in-game goods 6. Some of the essential goods of each tier are unlocked automatically when you are up to certain level. Other more good-looking goods can be purchased by using Ladder Credits 7. The 5 tiers of in-game goods that rank from lower to higher-tier are: ----(1) Color change of the skins for units and structures ----(2) Special skins for units and structures ----(3) New models for units and structures (such as NOVA as ghost or Zeratual as DT) ----(4) New visual effects of attack projectiles and spells ----(5) New dance animation ----(6) New in-game unit portraits (or something funny that can be added to the existing unit portraits like Zealot with a !@#$ing HAT  8. Higher-tier goods and better-looking goods require higher "Ladder Experience" or more "Ladder Credits" than lower-tier ones. 9. Add more New portraits that are animated that can be unlocked by using Ladder Experience or Ladder Credits 10. "Ladder Experience" and "Ladder Credits" are a prominent part in your profile that people can show off like the ladder leagues. 11. Though controversial, maybe add a system of AH and RMAH that can trade Credits like D3 Gold. (I know it could be bad) Would anyone actually think of this as fun? I for one would HATE alt-skins on units, it would mess up so much.
I would like it because i actually agree it may keep people playing and it would be a way to maybe very maybe go free2play and still make money so i think i like the idea
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On October 17 2012 17:11 Akhee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:09 dynwar7 wrote:
Destiny can think/say what he wants....but only time will tell if SC2 is truly going to die or not...
So pessimistic... it already started to die, viewer number has never been so bad, no real way to come back from that even when kespa + hots is coming.... why dont you believe its dying?
HDH invational had 35 000 live viewers + ALL of the 300 VoDs it was divided to have 100 000 - 400 000 views. 2000$price pool.
TSL4 finals had what, 25 000 liver viewers? The VoDs have 15 000 -20 000 viewers. This is tournament of 35 500$ price pool.
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meh. HotS isn't even out yet. i only watched a few games of the beta and then went back to WoL not because i'm not excited for HotS, but because i don't get much entertainment from watching a game i've never played, and therefore don't understand. plus it's not even out yet. then again i very rarely watch player streams to begin with but what i'm saying is just because there aren't hundreds of thousands of people watching the beta streams doesn't mean HotS is boring.
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sc2 was flawed from the beginning.
hots looks like its more of the same.
if LoL is the future, welp time to give up on esports.
just gonna have to wait another 5 years for some developers to step up.
tho it doesn't look too good as most developers prefer to just shit out casual games to keep the masses entertained for a few weeks/month's.
thank god for kickstarters or I might be worried about pc gaming.
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On October 17 2012 17:21 soullogik wrote:
sc2 was flawed from the beginning.
hots looks like its more of the same.
if LoL is the future of esports, welp time to give up.
just gonna have to wait another 5 years for some developers to step up.
tho it doesn't look too good as most developers prefer to just shit out casual games to keep the masses entertained for a few weeks/month's.
If anything, LOL is more casual than SC2.
+ Show Spoiler +Not trying to bash LOL, but it's relative.
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On October 17 2012 17:23 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:21 soullogik wrote:
sc2 was flawed from the beginning.
hots looks like its more of the same.
if LoL is the future of esports, welp time to give up.
just gonna have to wait another 5 years for some developers to step up.
tho it doesn't look too good as most developers prefer to just shit out casual games to keep the masses entertained for a few weeks/month's.
If anything, LOL is more casual than SC2. + Show Spoiler +Not trying to bash LOL, but it's relative.
i meant it in a bad way.
LoL is garbage casual ish.
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On October 17 2012 17:17 Sea_Food wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:11 Akhee wrote:On October 17 2012 17:09 dynwar7 wrote:
Destiny can think/say what he wants....but only time will tell if SC2 is truly going to die or not...
So pessimistic... it already started to die, viewer number has never been so bad, no real way to come back from that even when kespa + hots is coming.... why dont you believe its dying? HDH invational had 35 000 live viewers + ALL of the 300 VoDs it was divided to have 100 000 - 400 000 live viewers. 2000$price pool. TSL4 finals had what, 25 000 liver viewers? The VoDs have 15 000 -20 000 viewers. This is tournament of 35 500$ price pool.
Well that is mostly because ( atleast for me ) completly unknown koreans got in.
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On October 17 2012 17:21 soullogik wrote:
sc2 was flawed from the beginning.
hots looks like its more of the same.
if LoL is the future of esports, welp time to give up.
just gonna have to wait another 5 years for some developers to step up.
tho it doesn't look too good as most developers prefer to just shit out casual games to keep the masses entertained for a few weeks/month's.
This is why we need to put our faith in Dota 2.
Amazing game? Check.
Far from casual? Check.
Good company supporting it? Check.
Potential to get a lot of viewers? Check.
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Don't care anymore.Made the exact same post 2 times a while back no one cared or noticed.
It's already too late for HotS at this point,just let it slowly die out and hope people in charge learn some humility and that they can't reinvent the wheel twice.Than you will maybe see some meaningful changes in the last expansion.
I have been with this game through the 1 roach supply shit,the "lets stim up the ramp maybe he won't react in time",5 rax reapers,retarded maps,"colossus is good unit design for starcraft,trust me bros",etc.
Every time I said to myself,hey,it will get better,the game is still young.No it didn't and no it won't.
When you have such an elementary thing done wrong in the game such as unit design and interaction than I don't know what to tell you.Protoss is a broken race that needs a redesign from ground up and what does blizzard do?
"K we love force fields but we thing the sentry is a little bit too hard to use so we fixing that"
I don't even know what to say.
The astounding ignorance and unwillingness to learn from a game that was made by the same company is mind boggling.There is no amounts of tweets that will replace the rocks in Browders head with common sense.
Just let the game go up in flames and hope they will turn to each other and say"Maybe we actually fucked up guys".
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United States23455 Posts
On October 17 2012 17:11 Akhee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:09 dynwar7 wrote:
Destiny can think/say what he wants....but only time will tell if SC2 is truly going to die or not...
So pessimistic... it already started to die, viewer number has never been so bad, no real way to come back from that even when kespa + hots is coming.... why dont you believe its dying?
...It had ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND VIEWERS TWO WEEKS AGO.
People are so pessimistic and act like the sky is falling just because LoL is bigger.
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We need valve to make an RTS game, give some real competition to Blizz. I'm sick of Blizz ignoring the community.
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SC2 is just super boring to watch. When I watch SC2 I follow the game for 2-3 minutes, then do other stuff for 10-15minutes and then death balls collide and the game is over.
I agree with everybody saying that SC2 just is not a good RTS and I feel the same way. Only reason why SC2 is still alive is because of the popularity from BW and the cash prizes that followed with that at the launch of SC2.
But I think this time will end soon, depending on how fast viewer numbers decline.
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On October 17 2012 17:15 Jetaap wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 16:58 GolemMadness wrote:On October 17 2012 16:52 Jerubaal wrote:
So you're saying the reason BW was so big is because people were playing BGH a lot? Ok... I started playing Starcraft in 1998. I didn't start playing low money 1v1 games until around 2008. Even Idra state multiple time that he started by playing a lot of money maps in broodwar before starting "real" competitive 1v1. Blizzard seriously understimated the importance of the map making community and its support, I think that now it's too late to do anything since most of the map makers are extremely disillusioned about this game. I tried to see if the arcade system improved things, but honestly it's still shit.
SC2 has the best custom map maker program of any game ever made. If you think otherwise, you dont know enough.
The top custom map makers of WC3 and BW did come to SC2, and they did even use thousands of dollars to make the best custom maps ever.
None of these maps are released because:
bnet 2.0 is ass
blizzard promised that they would make Sc2 custom map market place so the map makers could make money.
ALL of the top map makers constantly messaged blizzard asking for further details when this comes. None of them have got a respond yet.
Someone even created a 3rd party program that was basically a Sc2 custom map market place. However 3rd party programs are against the ToS, so they had to ask blizzard are they allowed to use this. Blizzard has not responded to these messages yet.
Long story short, the best mappers got butt-devastatedmad and you wont see good custom maps in sc2.
+ Show Spoiler [source] +
Such a shame. So much potential lost because bnet
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On October 17 2012 17:24 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:21 soullogik wrote:
sc2 was flawed from the beginning.
hots looks like its more of the same.
if LoL is the future of esports, welp time to give up.
just gonna have to wait another 5 years for some developers to step up.
tho it doesn't look too good as most developers prefer to just shit out casual games to keep the masses entertained for a few weeks/month's.
This is why we need to put our faith in Dota 2. Amazing game? Check. Far from casual? Check. Good company supporting it? Check. Potential to get a lot of viewers? Check.
/agree
tho i tend to prefer rts over mobas.
vote gabe for president
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On October 17 2012 17:15 Veldril wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:11 Akhee wrote:On October 17 2012 17:09 dynwar7 wrote:
Destiny can think/say what he wants....but only time will tell if SC2 is truly going to die or not...
So pessimistic... it already started to die, viewer number has never been so bad, no real way to come back from that even when kespa + hots is coming.... why dont you believe its dying? Define so bad. I don't see a big tournament with number less than 30k recently. And please don't compare the number to that of LoL or DotA2. That's different genre.
i keep seeing this genre argument pop up, sponsors dont care about what genre of game theyre sponsoring. they allocate their budget depending on the popularity of the game. im sure they dont give 2 fucks about what game theyre sponsoring as long as they they have the biggest bang for their buck, meaning the most eyes on their product
the real issue here is blizzards lack of commitment towards helping the growth of sc2, wcs was an excellent start but theyre still a far ways off from what riot managed to do with LoL. HoN arguably had a better product in terms of gameplay in comparison to LoL, yet theyre pretty much dead now, whereas LoL is currently the biggest esport
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On October 17 2012 16:53 Myrkskog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 16:52 Jerubaal wrote:
So you're saying the reason BW was so big is because people were playing BGH a lot? Ok... That's pretty much what I did for 10 years in BW. I didnt play a ton of customs and didn't get into Iccup until season 7.
You misunderstand me. I'm asking if the reason for the success of OSL/MSL etc was that people were playing BGH. That makes no sense to me. It certainly didn't contribute to the creation of the talent necessary to run those tournaments successfully.
I think some people see the numerical success of LoL and feel the need to lash out at something. It certainly isn't game design. So you want to casualify the game to increase its popularity (this is going on meanwhile at the same an overlapping group is calling the game too easy). This sounds to me like the NBA promoting big dunks and no defense so that every 14 year old can become a Miami Heat fan while appreciation for real basketball is few and far between. You may be popularizing your sport, but you ruin it in the process.
If you said that we needed chat channels so that we could get more people interested that way then I'd be more convinced, but a) you're not and b) I've been on TL, twitch chat and IRC channels and not that many people are interested in playing 1v1 seriously. Chat channels are not the problem.
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On October 17 2012 17:17 Sea_Food wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:11 Akhee wrote:On October 17 2012 17:09 dynwar7 wrote:
Destiny can think/say what he wants....but only time will tell if SC2 is truly going to die or not...
So pessimistic... it already started to die, viewer number has never been so bad, no real way to come back from that even when kespa + hots is coming.... why dont you believe its dying? HDH invational had 35 000 live viewers + ALL of the 300 VoDs it was divided to have 100 000 - 400 000 live viewers. 2000$price pool. TSL4 finals had what, 25 000 liver viewers? The VoDs have 15 000 -20 000 viewers. This is tournament of 35 500$ price pool.
Using TSL4 finals is really a bad example, especially comparing with HDH.
Back in the beta, the only big (and the biggest) tournament at that time was HDH. TSL4 comes when there are tons of online tournaments/people streaming going on. In fact, many people consider TSL4 a failure production wise comparing to TSL3.
Viewers are declining, that's for sure. But it's natural because not everyone like to play or watch the same game over 2 years. Also, the decline is not in the collapsing rate if we goes by the big LAN events like MLG Championship or Dreamhack or even GSL.
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EPT
