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On August 30 2013 02:26 nachtkap wrote:yeah sure lets just ignore post like mine that has actual dates attached to it. Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 21:49 nachtkap wrote:I was wondering about the documentary as well. IMO it required a bit more searching then it should. I dont think the producer Jeff Alejos is updating anything besides his twitter https://twitter.com/SonsofStarcraft. the picture his tweets paint isnt actually that bad: Jeff Alejos @SonsofStarcraft 29 Mar (2013):
Post production is well underway. One final shoot at the new Gangnam studio in April and the film is finished shooting! Jeff Alejos @SonsofStarcraft 3 Apr(2013)
On the way to the first day of Code S in the Gangnam Studio for the last day of filming! Get ready nerds~ this thing has been in editing for 9 month excluding that extra bit in the new gsl studios. IMO it only feels waaay to long if you dont consider the disparity between his required (18k) and actual (40k) funding. That's ~2.3 times the founding he wanted. It seems to me that this thing should have 2.3+ times more content then was originally planed. He planed to have thing take 12 month from start to finish with his original funding goal. 12 months x 2.3 times the funding = 27.6 months from start to finish. If he started started in October of 2011 then that would mean a release date in early 2014.
Is that math really how these kinds of filming and editing things scale though? I feel like throwing an arbitrary equation at the project and saying "See?" instead of quoting actual updates from the producer isn't as trustworthy.
Either way, I hope this documentary gets finished and put out for us to see; the TL and EG ones were amazing, and this SoS trailer is great too.
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On August 30 2013 02:26 nachtkap wrote:yeah sure lets just ignore post like mine that has actual dates attached to it. Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 21:49 nachtkap wrote:I was wondering about the documentary as well. IMO it required a bit more searching then it should. I dont think the producer Jeff Alejos is updating anything besides his twitter https://twitter.com/SonsofStarcraft. the picture his tweets paint isnt actually that bad: Jeff Alejos @SonsofStarcraft 29 Mar (2013):
Post production is well underway. One final shoot at the new Gangnam studio in April and the film is finished shooting! Jeff Alejos @SonsofStarcraft 3 Apr(2013)
On the way to the first day of Code S in the Gangnam Studio for the last day of filming! Get ready nerds~ this thing has been in editing for 9 month excluding that extra bit in the new gsl studios. IMO it only feels waaay to long if you dont consider the disparity between his required (18k) and actual (40k) funding. That's ~2.3 times the founding he wanted. It seems to me that this thing should have 2.3+ times more content then was originally planed. He planed to have thing take 12 month from start to finish with his original funding goal. 12 months x 2.3 times the funding = 27.6 months from start to finish. If he started started in October of 2011 then that would mean a release date in early 2014.
That's very crude maths. Your calculations are worthless I'm afraid
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On August 30 2013 02:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 02:26 nachtkap wrote:yeah sure lets just ignore post like mine that has actual dates attached to it. On August 29 2013 21:49 nachtkap wrote:I was wondering about the documentary as well. IMO it required a bit more searching then it should. I dont think the producer Jeff Alejos is updating anything besides his twitter https://twitter.com/SonsofStarcraft. the picture his tweets paint isnt actually that bad: Jeff Alejos @SonsofStarcraft 29 Mar (2013):
Post production is well underway. One final shoot at the new Gangnam studio in April and the film is finished shooting! Jeff Alejos @SonsofStarcraft 3 Apr(2013)
On the way to the first day of Code S in the Gangnam Studio for the last day of filming! Get ready nerds~ this thing has been in editing for 9 month excluding that extra bit in the new gsl studios. IMO it only feels waaay to long if you dont consider the disparity between his required (18k) and actual (40k) funding. That's ~2.3 times the founding he wanted. It seems to me that this thing should have 2.3+ times more content then was originally planed. He planed to have thing take 12 month from start to finish with his original funding goal. 12 months x 2.3 times the funding = 27.6 months from start to finish. If he started started in October of 2011 then that would mean a release date in early 2014. Is that math really how these kinds of filming and editing things scale though? I feel like throwing an arbitrary equation at the project and saying "See?" instead of quoting actual updates from the producer isn't as trustworthy. Either way, I hope this documentary gets finished and put out for us to see; the TL and EG ones were amazing, and this SoS trailer is great too.
I don't really think anyone in this thread has an accurate idea of how long it takes to edit and create a great documentary or the number of man hours involved. It seems like everyone just says "Look he got $$$$ and its been a long time since I last saw this thread bumped. Why isn't it here yet?"
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On August 30 2013 02:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 02:26 nachtkap wrote:yeah sure lets just ignore post like mine that has actual dates attached to it. On August 29 2013 21:49 nachtkap wrote:I was wondering about the documentary as well. IMO it required a bit more searching then it should. I dont think the producer Jeff Alejos is updating anything besides his twitter https://twitter.com/SonsofStarcraft. the picture his tweets paint isnt actually that bad: Jeff Alejos @SonsofStarcraft 29 Mar (2013):
Post production is well underway. One final shoot at the new Gangnam studio in April and the film is finished shooting! Jeff Alejos @SonsofStarcraft 3 Apr(2013)
On the way to the first day of Code S in the Gangnam Studio for the last day of filming! Get ready nerds~ this thing has been in editing for 9 month excluding that extra bit in the new gsl studios. IMO it only feels waaay to long if you dont consider the disparity between his required (18k) and actual (40k) funding. That's ~2.3 times the founding he wanted. It seems to me that this thing should have 2.3+ times more content then was originally planed. He planed to have thing take 12 month from start to finish with his original funding goal. 12 months x 2.3 times the funding = 27.6 months from start to finish. If he started started in October of 2011 then that would mean a release date in early 2014. Is that math really how these kinds of filming and editing things scale though? I feel like throwing an arbitrary equation at the project and saying "See?" instead of quoting actual updates from the producer isn't as trustworthy. Either way, I hope this documentary gets finished and put out for us to see; the TL and EG ones were amazing, and this SoS trailer is great too.
What EG documentary? As far as I know it's another of the kickstarted docs that is behind schedule.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ninehourfilms/good-game-an-film-about-evil-geniuses
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On August 30 2013 02:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 02:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 30 2013 02:26 nachtkap wrote:yeah sure lets just ignore post like mine that has actual dates attached to it. On August 29 2013 21:49 nachtkap wrote:I was wondering about the documentary as well. IMO it required a bit more searching then it should. I dont think the producer Jeff Alejos is updating anything besides his twitter https://twitter.com/SonsofStarcraft. the picture his tweets paint isnt actually that bad: Jeff Alejos @SonsofStarcraft 29 Mar (2013):
Post production is well underway. One final shoot at the new Gangnam studio in April and the film is finished shooting! Jeff Alejos @SonsofStarcraft 3 Apr(2013)
On the way to the first day of Code S in the Gangnam Studio for the last day of filming! Get ready nerds~ this thing has been in editing for 9 month excluding that extra bit in the new gsl studios. IMO it only feels waaay to long if you dont consider the disparity between his required (18k) and actual (40k) funding. That's ~2.3 times the founding he wanted. It seems to me that this thing should have 2.3+ times more content then was originally planed. He planed to have thing take 12 month from start to finish with his original funding goal. 12 months x 2.3 times the funding = 27.6 months from start to finish. If he started started in October of 2011 then that would mean a release date in early 2014. Is that math really how these kinds of filming and editing things scale though? I feel like throwing an arbitrary equation at the project and saying "See?" instead of quoting actual updates from the producer isn't as trustworthy. Either way, I hope this documentary gets finished and put out for us to see; the TL and EG ones were amazing, and this SoS trailer is great too. I don't really think anyone in this thread has an accurate idea of how long it takes to edit and create a great documentary or the number of man hours involved. It seems like everyone just says "Look he got $$$$ and its been a long time since I last saw this thread bumped. Why isn't it here yet?"
Why do you consistently ignore the fact that the creators themselves gave expectations when they asked for people's money? You're right, none of us know exactly how long it takes to make a film, this is why we rely on the professionals creating the content to tell us. A little late, a little early, nothing is out of the ordinary but being over a year behind with little to no updates is pretty bad. I'll still watch them and be excited when they release but the constant apologetics and wishy-washy excuses are pretty annoying.
You can't take people's money give them estimations, fail to deliver and fail to update. I'm not sure in what area of life that would ever be acceptable.
I'm not saying we burn them at the stake and sharpen our pitchforks to run them out of town but there are legitimate reasons for backers to be upset or annoyed with the way these projects have been handled and to shrug it them off with flaccid excuses like 'guys it can take long time to make movizezz' is incredibly lame.
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i don't get why people are worried when tastosis talks time to time about their involvement with them
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On August 30 2013 03:00 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 02:52 Plansix wrote:On August 30 2013 02:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 30 2013 02:26 nachtkap wrote:yeah sure lets just ignore post like mine that has actual dates attached to it. On August 29 2013 21:49 nachtkap wrote:I was wondering about the documentary as well. IMO it required a bit more searching then it should. I dont think the producer Jeff Alejos is updating anything besides his twitter https://twitter.com/SonsofStarcraft. the picture his tweets paint isnt actually that bad: Jeff Alejos @SonsofStarcraft 29 Mar (2013):
Post production is well underway. One final shoot at the new Gangnam studio in April and the film is finished shooting! Jeff Alejos @SonsofStarcraft 3 Apr(2013)
On the way to the first day of Code S in the Gangnam Studio for the last day of filming! Get ready nerds~ this thing has been in editing for 9 month excluding that extra bit in the new gsl studios. IMO it only feels waaay to long if you dont consider the disparity between his required (18k) and actual (40k) funding. That's ~2.3 times the founding he wanted. It seems to me that this thing should have 2.3+ times more content then was originally planed. He planed to have thing take 12 month from start to finish with his original funding goal. 12 months x 2.3 times the funding = 27.6 months from start to finish. If he started started in October of 2011 then that would mean a release date in early 2014. Is that math really how these kinds of filming and editing things scale though? I feel like throwing an arbitrary equation at the project and saying "See?" instead of quoting actual updates from the producer isn't as trustworthy. Either way, I hope this documentary gets finished and put out for us to see; the TL and EG ones were amazing, and this SoS trailer is great too. I don't really think anyone in this thread has an accurate idea of how long it takes to edit and create a great documentary or the number of man hours involved. It seems like everyone just says "Look he got $$$$ and its been a long time since I last saw this thread bumped. Why isn't it here yet?" Why do you consistently ignore the fact that the creators themselves gave expectations when they asked for people's money? You're right, none of us know exactly how long it takes to make a film, this is why we rely on the professionals creating the content to tell us. A little late, a little early, nothing is out of the ordinary but being over a year behind with little to no updates is pretty bad. I'll still watch them and be excited when they release but the constant apologetics and wishy-washy excuses are pretty annoying. You can't take people's money give them estimations, fail to deliver and fail to update. I'm not sure in what area of life that would ever be acceptable. I'm not saying we burn them at the stake and sharpen our pitchforks to run them out of town but there are legitimate reasons for backers to be upset or annoyed with the way these projects have been handled and to shrug it them off with flaccid excuses like 'guys it can take long time to make movizezz' is incredibly lame.
Are any of those people in this thread? I mean if you funded the film directly, I could see it. But why wouldn't you contact the creator and ask what is going on?
My clients ask for updates all the time and we give them. But when random people who do not pay us ask for updates(other vendors, people involved with what we are working on), I ignore them. Movies take time and if people who provided funding want an update, they have a right to ask. However, this thread isn't really the place for them to be requesting that update.
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plansix is obviously in on the scam.
being almost a year late on production and not providing routine updates (via twitter or whatever) is incredibly unprofessional.
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On August 30 2013 03:08 dAPhREAk wrote:
plansix is obviously in on the scam.
being almost a year late on production and not providing routine updates (via twitter or whatever) is incredibly unprofessional.
Agreed, and if people who funded the project say they are not getting the updates they wanted, it would be very unprofessional and no good. I just think this thread is a poor place to determine if those updates are being provided and if the people who backed the project are happy.
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while we're at it, what happened to star nation?
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On August 30 2013 02:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 02:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 30 2013 02:26 nachtkap wrote:yeah sure lets just ignore post like mine that has actual dates attached to it. On August 29 2013 21:49 nachtkap wrote:I was wondering about the documentary as well. IMO it required a bit more searching then it should. I dont think the producer Jeff Alejos is updating anything besides his twitter https://twitter.com/SonsofStarcraft. the picture his tweets paint isnt actually that bad: Jeff Alejos @SonsofStarcraft 29 Mar (2013):
Post production is well underway. One final shoot at the new Gangnam studio in April and the film is finished shooting! Jeff Alejos @SonsofStarcraft 3 Apr(2013)
On the way to the first day of Code S in the Gangnam Studio for the last day of filming! Get ready nerds~ this thing has been in editing for 9 month excluding that extra bit in the new gsl studios. IMO it only feels waaay to long if you dont consider the disparity between his required (18k) and actual (40k) funding. That's ~2.3 times the founding he wanted. It seems to me that this thing should have 2.3+ times more content then was originally planed. He planed to have thing take 12 month from start to finish with his original funding goal. 12 months x 2.3 times the funding = 27.6 months from start to finish. If he started started in October of 2011 then that would mean a release date in early 2014. Is that math really how these kinds of filming and editing things scale though? I feel like throwing an arbitrary equation at the project and saying "See?" instead of quoting actual updates from the producer isn't as trustworthy. Either way, I hope this documentary gets finished and put out for us to see; the TL and EG ones were amazing, and this SoS trailer is great too. I don't really think anyone in this thread has an accurate idea of how long it takes to edit and create a great documentary or the number of man hours involved. It seems like everyone just says "Look he got $$$$ and its been a long time since I last saw this thread bumped. Why isn't it here yet?"
Assuming it's an hour and a half long, 1 dude maybe 6 months full time. With considerably more post production (crazy graphics, audio editing, etc) maybe another 3 or so months if that one dude was still the only one doing it.
My only experience is the creation of a 5 minute demo reel taking about 2-3 weeks piecing together multiple render sequences in 3d, adding basic graphical enhancements, and setting to music. Considerably more intense than the piecing together of filmed footage.
Unless all of the footage was shit or lost and needs to be fixed or re-shot, it's simply taking too long.
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The moral of the story appears to be that nobody who said they wanted to make a documentary really had any clue as to what they were doing. And is anyone really surprised?
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Star nation got a 6k grant last week, apparently much needed to finish up the film.
They seem a little more responsive lately.
Still no response to my email about my address. wtb my signed tastosis poster :<
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On August 30 2013 03:52 Bashnek wrote:
Star nation got a 6k grant last week, apparently much needed to finish up the film.
They seem a little more responsive lately.
Still no response to my email about my address. wtb my signed tastosis poster :<
How long ago were you supposed to get this poster?
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On August 30 2013 04:27 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 03:52 Bashnek wrote:
Star nation got a 6k grant last week, apparently much needed to finish up the film.
They seem a little more responsive lately.
Still no response to my email about my address. wtb my signed tastosis poster :< How long ago were you supposed to get this poster?
Estimated delivery: Oct 2012 (from the kickstarter page, delays are akways expected on ks rewards i guess)
Wasnt really expecting it until the movie releases, but he asked for a mailing address & money for postage to au december last year (nothing yet)
I get that doco's take time etc, but the last update on the website (http://sonsofstarcraft.tumblr.com/) was october last year lol.
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On August 30 2013 04:54 Bashnek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 04:27 Dodgin wrote:On August 30 2013 03:52 Bashnek wrote:
Star nation got a 6k grant last week, apparently much needed to finish up the film.
They seem a little more responsive lately.
Still no response to my email about my address. wtb my signed tastosis poster :< How long ago were you supposed to get this poster? Estimated delivery: Oct 2012 (from the kickstarter page, delays are akways expected on ks rewards i guess) Wasnt really expecting it until the movie releases, but he asked for a mailing address & money for postage to au december last year (nothing yet) I get that doco's take time etc, but the last update on the website (http://sonsofstarcraft.tumblr.com/) was october last year lol.
He seems to be focusing his updates on twitter more and more. I would not expect the poster until release of the firm, but keep bothering him until he confirms to have your new address. If he doesn't respond, I would bother Artosis or Tasteless about it through twitter. I know they responded to that in the past.
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On August 30 2013 04:58 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 04:54 Bashnek wrote:On August 30 2013 04:27 Dodgin wrote:On August 30 2013 03:52 Bashnek wrote:
Star nation got a 6k grant last week, apparently much needed to finish up the film.
They seem a little more responsive lately.
Still no response to my email about my address. wtb my signed tastosis poster :< How long ago were you supposed to get this poster? Estimated delivery: Oct 2012 (from the kickstarter page, delays are akways expected on ks rewards i guess) Wasnt really expecting it until the movie releases, but he asked for a mailing address & money for postage to au december last year (nothing yet) I get that doco's take time etc, but the last update on the website (http://sonsofstarcraft.tumblr.com/) was october last year lol. He seems to be focusing his updates on twitter more and more. I would not expect the poster until release of the firm, but keep bothering him until he confirms to have your new address. If he doesn't respond, I would bother Artosis or Tasteless about it through twitter. I know they responded to that in the past.
have they? i'll give it a go, thanks!
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On August 30 2013 05:00 Bashnek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 04:58 Plansix wrote:On August 30 2013 04:54 Bashnek wrote:On August 30 2013 04:27 Dodgin wrote:On August 30 2013 03:52 Bashnek wrote:
Star nation got a 6k grant last week, apparently much needed to finish up the film.
They seem a little more responsive lately.
Still no response to my email about my address. wtb my signed tastosis poster :< How long ago were you supposed to get this poster? Estimated delivery: Oct 2012 (from the kickstarter page, delays are akways expected on ks rewards i guess) Wasnt really expecting it until the movie releases, but he asked for a mailing address & money for postage to au december last year (nothing yet) I get that doco's take time etc, but the last update on the website (http://sonsofstarcraft.tumblr.com/) was october last year lol. He seems to be focusing his updates on twitter more and more. I would not expect the poster until release of the firm, but keep bothering him until he confirms to have your new address. If he doesn't respond, I would bother Artosis or Tasteless about it through twitter. I know they responded to that in the past. have they? i'll give it a go, thanks!
I know Tasteless has responded to questions via twitter and through his stream chat about the film. It can't hurt.
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On August 30 2013 02:50 ProxyKnoxy wrote:That's very crude maths. Your calculations are worthless I'm afraid
I'm open to suggestions on how to avoid TL;DR when math involved in it isn't crude simple. Or why solid math should be involved in giving a(ny) comparative value where non previously existed (lack of updates).
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On August 30 2013 02:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 02:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 30 2013 02:26 nachtkap wrote:yeah sure lets just ignore post like mine that has actual dates attached to it. On August 29 2013 21:49 nachtkap wrote:I was wondering about the documentary as well. IMO it required a bit more searching then it should. I dont think the producer Jeff Alejos is updating anything besides his twitter https://twitter.com/SonsofStarcraft. the picture his tweets paint isnt actually that bad: Jeff Alejos @SonsofStarcraft 29 Mar (2013):
Post production is well underway. One final shoot at the new Gangnam studio in April and the film is finished shooting! Jeff Alejos @SonsofStarcraft 3 Apr(2013)
On the way to the first day of Code S in the Gangnam Studio for the last day of filming! Get ready nerds~ this thing has been in editing for 9 month excluding that extra bit in the new gsl studios. IMO it only feels waaay to long if you dont consider the disparity between his required (18k) and actual (40k) funding. That's ~2.3 times the founding he wanted. It seems to me that this thing should have 2.3+ times more content then was originally planed. He planed to have thing take 12 month from start to finish with his original funding goal. 12 months x 2.3 times the funding = 27.6 months from start to finish. If he started started in October of 2011 then that would mean a release date in early 2014. Is that math really how these kinds of filming and editing things scale though? I feel like throwing an arbitrary equation at the project and saying "See?" instead of quoting actual updates from the producer isn't as trustworthy. Either way, I hope this documentary gets finished and put out for us to see; the TL and EG ones were amazing, and this SoS trailer is great too. I don't really think anyone in this thread has an accurate idea of how long it takes to edit and create a great documentary or the number of man hours involved. It seems like everyone just says "Look he got $$$$ and its been a long time since I last saw this thread bumped. Why isn't it here yet?"
I do actually and i can give a qualified estimate. Documentaries are all about planning to get everything to "click", you enter a situation with a planned out idea of what you want because when you start a documentary you will need to decide which angle you are going to view the subject from and how you are going to approach it. Documentaries are actually very scripted and biased, something most people don´t realize or want to believe. Michael Moore for example gets a lot of flack for his methods but they are in no way unique, he just does a poor job of hiding it or simply doesn't care. A documentary is an argument of the filmmaker about a certain subject, hence you have to choose what you want to portray and how you want to portray it. To get this right, and to keep the red thread going you need to have a clear vision and planned out path - otherwise you are asking for trouble.
The first thing they would've had to do is sitt down and discuss 'What do we want to show, how to we want to portray these people and how do we do it'. This should have been 100% done before the kickstarter.
After they recieve their kickstarter money i would assume they can properly start planning and scheduling interviews. Now i do not know how many people are featured but bar main characters like tastosis, interviewing a person should not take more then a day. So let's say they have ten people to interview whom they also have to return to for second takes due to fuck ups(shit happens) so that's twenty days for interviews. Let's make it twenty five to include random traveling.
So i'd say to plan out the entire thing in detail, a 1,5 hour long movie i would say takes two weeks worth of planning. Scheduling, booking interviews, tickets, hotels, research etc but let's say three weeks.
Then there's korea, i have no idea how long they were there but i would spend a month there if possible, following tastosis around, grabbing filler footage, interviewing them, living with them etc - truly get to know them. So korea - four weeks
Now they are returning to korea for some extra stuff i heard, i'd give that two weeks and you have plenty of time covering the event in question, filling in any gaps with tastosis and fix any lacking interviews and add some extra shots.
That's it for filming, you´re done shooting and now starts the actual job. You will have scripts for every interview where you try to get your subjects to answer the questions in the manner you want them to answer and you have to look them over and see how well everything fits. To do this you need to transcode everything that is ever said, including possible voice overs, in your shots. And for a 1,5 hour movie i'd assume they have 15 - 20 hours worth of footage, with atleast two thirds of it being with people talking. So let´s say it takes them a week to transcode and log it but give it two weeks for good measure since it is extremely boring.
Now you have the actual makings of the content - it is time to choose scenes and paste everything together on a huge wall, i prefer to do it hands on and not digital since it simply gives you a better overview. A large amount of post it´s and photos and a bunch of markers are needed. Here they should/would go through all the logs and mark passages that are either A. must have B. Very good C. Good but not relevent and D. In case we need it. This would take a long time since a lot of tough decisions are to be made and a lot of "kill your darlings". Here the actual shape and form of the documentary takes place. I'd say this takes them eight weeks but let´s make it ten weeks. You can´t be stuck here forever since you have to make a decision instead of just wailing about, things have to be cut and it might feel bad but it has to be done if the movie is ever to take of.
Now you have actual editing and post. Here your previous work gets put to the test and you will do a raw cut of the wall you built earlier to simply try it out and see how it works. The general idea is usually good but a lot of things will have to be swapped around and replaced. Say one week to tamper with the raw cut and then another two weeks of adjustments until things are where you want them to be in general in the movie. This will be shown to trusted individuals for feedback and things will most certainly change again so another two weeks for a re cut and another showing. Lets take another recut of two weeks to get it sorted and then one more week for simply tampering with sound levels and other small details.
Post for a movie like this, i assume they can fit some nice stuff in there in forms of graphics and such since it is a movie about starcraft. You shouldn't color a documentary tbh but hey if they do it that's another two weeks. Then say three weeks or make it four weeks for the rest of post production if they feel the need to go heavy on it.
We now have an estimate time of 270 days of fulltime work. Normal people also have four weeks of vacation in a year so that gives us 298 days or 9,9 months of fulltime work. Someone said they don´t do this fulltime either so if it's 50% it gives us 596 days or 19,8 months. I'd give myself perhaps a month's margin for error here because they might visit say tastotis parents which would require more traveling and such. It's an estimate but a qualified one since things never actually work out exactly how you planned it.
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EPT
