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On September 13 2012 13:26 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 13:15 StarStruck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:55 m0ck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. I don't really understand the appreciation for this post. You start out mentioning how you're not really up to speed on the situation, yet continue to lambast the people running MoW. Do you know what If charging for both rent, food and the attention of a coach AND taking a cut from streaming is necessary in order for MoW to run their business, how can you say that it is out of order? Should they charge more for living there? As far as I can tell, it is a way of keeping living expenses at a lower rate than they would be otherwise. Full board and the work of a coach for 600 euros a month is quite cheap from my perspective, even if living costs obviously differ regionally. But are you really in a position to make the judgment in any case? As for not improving while streaming - the former players seem to disagree. The same goes for the frat-house characterization. You are directly contradicting the former players in the house. People are forgetting that gaming-houses are a novelty in Europe and very rare. Most people practice at home. MoW has tried to make them work by making a business out of it and at least had the intention of helping players practice by providing some form of coaching. That is something we have not yet seen anywhere outside of Korea. Yes, mistakes have been made but this seems like a really glib dismissal from someone not very familiar with the situation. From the sound of it, he's very up to speed on the terms and no where did MoW's contradict Fuzer's points either. With that said, MoW's model and selection process to me simply won't help players improve. Ofc I don't know their secret tactics yet (Blackman/Ilnip secret tactics anyone?). Then again they did say it's void if they're participating in tournaments and what not. -__- Lol and by ilnp you mean whatever korean zerg that played on his account during wdt  ( i think chojja lollll)
lol that shit certainly goes waaaaaaaaaaay back.
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On September 13 2012 13:35 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 13:19 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2012 13:05 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 13:01 m0ck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:58 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 12:43 AlgeriaT wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. Given the posts by LgNkarmy and Snute who have both lived at the MoW house, it seems that - while what you say may be true - such a revamp is already underway, that MoW are learning from their mistakes and that they in fact are not malicious in their intent. Did you read these posts? I ask because I fear that your post (given your status in the community) may add significantly to a bonfire of hate based purely on hearsay from one evicted player and possibly lead to an undue mailbombing of sponsors, as already instigated by several trolls/overly aggressive posters in this thread. I disagree with you. In my opinion, it's only fair if we can hear both sides of the story and speculation. It doesn't even matter if revisions to the contract or whatever is underway. It does not change anything in Fuzer's situation, at all. In that regard, it does not concern this case in anyway. Oh, and to be honest, Snute's post isn't even remotely an insight. Every other line, he says, "I am not taking sides", and yet every other line he praises MoW/bashes Fuzer. He's a pro player, he benefited from the team house. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? So, posts from former players carry no value. Only rampant speculation from people outside the situation does. Makes sense. I am sorry, that's an over-generalization. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? And from what I've read from FXOBoss, I wouldn't denounce his speculation as rampant. Fuzer is significantly better than LgNKarmy or whatever his name is, who upon entering the MoW I'm not positive if he was even mid masters on NA. On September 13 2012 13:06 Inori wrote:On September 13 2012 08:23 MinistryOfWin wrote:
Streaming time - quote from the contract: 150 hours per month, unless having a series of training events or trips to StarCraft II tournaments. We are all humans, we are not forcing the players to stream 4 hours a day. I'm sure this was brought up before, but this is too good to pass. 168 hours/month is considered full time working hours. You're asking for relatively large monthly payment and on top of that make the guy work pretty much full time with no benefits like health insurance? How can anybody take this seriously? How could anybody agree to these bs terms? Few comments/questions. 1. If you don't like it, don't go? Don't agree to the terms? 2. Does Poland not have free healthcare, out of curiosity? 3. They aren't employees, they'd are simply "leasing" out the facilities in a contract and are paying a commission to the MoW for its use. This is not uncommon in many areas. In Europe (or Poland specifically), do companies typically offer benefits beyond pay for temporary workers, contractors, commission based agents, or for permissive use of leased equipment? They would not fall under the definition of an employee, which generally has an indefinite period of employment unless terminated by a party, has to report to a supervisor on how they perform the task (rather than simply being required to complete the task, which is a contractor). Although in this specific scenario I guess there are some arguments they could be considered employees (as MoW does provide equipment/tool). 4. Oh shit. The requirement included weekends? That's a major bust. How do the local labor laws in Poland (more of a question to anyone) respond to contract "work" that requires 7 days a week of work? I know in the U.S. if you're required to work 7 days, regardless of how many hours your work each individual day, it counts as overtime, IF you're an employee. To 1. : Didn't you read all the terms weren't revealed? And I'm not sure why you're okay with shit terms as long as no one goes there. That's like having every single tournament have no prizes and if you don't like it you don't play in them. The scene would die. Also I'm pretty sure that making people work 150 hours a month for free is illegal as well but...
That one "unbiased" MoW guy they only took a little bit of money and he got to keep... some of it? Though you have to take anything he said with a molecule of salt.
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I think this is tough because it seems like there is a MASSIVE bias in the MoW when its concerning big name pro players and other players who are paying out of their own pockets to live there. As in anything in the world the people with the least representation and notoriety seem to get walked over a lot. I am proud fuzer is standing up for himself because from everything I have seen so far the way this house treats pros such as Ret and Titan (in the videos) is different from a player such as Fuzer. Also they have said contracts vary from player to player. This also seems like another line of discrimination. How can you provide the same services to every person who stays in the house under the same conditions but have different contracts?
I am not saying MoW is a scam but I think it is absolute B.S. for not well represented/known players from the PR release/videos/and information out there so far. I am sure players of Ret's caliber/notoriety are treated much differently then someone such as Fuzer and I think they've made it pretty apparently by carefully selecting what interviews to release of players as well.
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On September 13 2012 13:35 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 13:19 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2012 13:05 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 13:01 m0ck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:58 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 12:43 AlgeriaT wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. Given the posts by LgNkarmy and Snute who have both lived at the MoW house, it seems that - while what you say may be true - such a revamp is already underway, that MoW are learning from their mistakes and that they in fact are not malicious in their intent. Did you read these posts? I ask because I fear that your post (given your status in the community) may add significantly to a bonfire of hate based purely on hearsay from one evicted player and possibly lead to an undue mailbombing of sponsors, as already instigated by several trolls/overly aggressive posters in this thread. I disagree with you. In my opinion, it's only fair if we can hear both sides of the story and speculation. It doesn't even matter if revisions to the contract or whatever is underway. It does not change anything in Fuzer's situation, at all. In that regard, it does not concern this case in anyway. Oh, and to be honest, Snute's post isn't even remotely an insight. Every other line, he says, "I am not taking sides", and yet every other line he praises MoW/bashes Fuzer. He's a pro player, he benefited from the team house. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? So, posts from former players carry no value. Only rampant speculation from people outside the situation does. Makes sense. I am sorry, that's an over-generalization. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? And from what I've read from FXOBoss, I wouldn't denounce his speculation as rampant. Fuzer is significantly better than LgNKarmy or whatever his name is, who upon entering the MoW I'm not positive if he was even mid masters on NA. On September 13 2012 13:06 Inori wrote:On September 13 2012 08:23 MinistryOfWin wrote:
Streaming time - quote from the contract: 150 hours per month, unless having a series of training events or trips to StarCraft II tournaments. We are all humans, we are not forcing the players to stream 4 hours a day. I'm sure this was brought up before, but this is too good to pass. 168 hours/month is considered full time working hours. You're asking for relatively large monthly payment and on top of that make the guy work pretty much full time with no benefits like health insurance? How can anybody take this seriously? How could anybody agree to these bs terms? Few comments/questions. 1. If you don't like it, don't go? Don't agree to the terms? 2. Does Poland not have free healthcare, out of curiosity? 3. They aren't employees, they'd are simply "leasing" out the facilities in a contract and are paying a commission to the MoW for its use. This is not uncommon in many areas. In Europe (or Poland specifically), do companies typically offer benefits beyond pay for temporary workers, contractors, commission based agents, or for permissive use of leased equipment? They would not fall under the definition of an employee, which generally has an indefinite period of employment unless terminated by a party, has to report to a supervisor on how they perform the task (rather than simply being required to complete the task, which is a contractor). Although in this specific scenario I guess there are some arguments they could be considered employees (as MoW does provide equipment/tool). 4. Oh shit. The requirement included weekends? That's a major bust. How do the local labor laws in Poland (more of a question to anyone) respond to contract "work" that requires 7 days a week of work? I know in the U.S. if you're required to work 7 days, regardless of how many hours your work each individual day, it counts as overtime, IF you're an employee. To 1. : Didn't you read all the terms weren't revealed? And I'm not sure why you're okay with shit terms as long as no one goes there. That's like having every single tournament have no prizes and if you don't like it you don't play in them. The scene would die. Also I'm pretty sure that making people work 150 hours a month for free is illegal as well but...
They did say that's only if they aren't doing anything else, so it's not really enforceable lol.
As BoSs put it, it's to show that they have power.
I do agree on the fact that I find streaming to be very counter-productive to one's development. MoW want lots of promotion from this project to gain more steam from endorsements and more players coming over.
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On September 13 2012 09:48 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 09:47 wozzot wrote:
So all of this drama is going on over less than $600? Because MoW wouldn't give the guy his rent money back after he refused to agree to the terms of a contract that wasn't even shown to him until after he arrived in the gaming house?
what It's over 600 EUROS.If you've been living in a cave for the last, idk, 20 years (?) you might not know this, but the Euro is worth about 1.5x the amount of the US dollar.
not quite
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On September 13 2012 13:42 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 13:35 Shikyo wrote:On September 13 2012 13:19 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2012 13:05 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 13:01 m0ck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:58 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 12:43 AlgeriaT wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. Given the posts by LgNkarmy and Snute who have both lived at the MoW house, it seems that - while what you say may be true - such a revamp is already underway, that MoW are learning from their mistakes and that they in fact are not malicious in their intent. Did you read these posts? I ask because I fear that your post (given your status in the community) may add significantly to a bonfire of hate based purely on hearsay from one evicted player and possibly lead to an undue mailbombing of sponsors, as already instigated by several trolls/overly aggressive posters in this thread. I disagree with you. In my opinion, it's only fair if we can hear both sides of the story and speculation. It doesn't even matter if revisions to the contract or whatever is underway. It does not change anything in Fuzer's situation, at all. In that regard, it does not concern this case in anyway. Oh, and to be honest, Snute's post isn't even remotely an insight. Every other line, he says, "I am not taking sides", and yet every other line he praises MoW/bashes Fuzer. He's a pro player, he benefited from the team house. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? So, posts from former players carry no value. Only rampant speculation from people outside the situation does. Makes sense. I am sorry, that's an over-generalization. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? And from what I've read from FXOBoss, I wouldn't denounce his speculation as rampant. Fuzer is significantly better than LgNKarmy or whatever his name is, who upon entering the MoW I'm not positive if he was even mid masters on NA. On September 13 2012 13:06 Inori wrote:On September 13 2012 08:23 MinistryOfWin wrote:
Streaming time - quote from the contract: 150 hours per month, unless having a series of training events or trips to StarCraft II tournaments. We are all humans, we are not forcing the players to stream 4 hours a day. I'm sure this was brought up before, but this is too good to pass. 168 hours/month is considered full time working hours. You're asking for relatively large monthly payment and on top of that make the guy work pretty much full time with no benefits like health insurance? How can anybody take this seriously? How could anybody agree to these bs terms? Few comments/questions. 1. If you don't like it, don't go? Don't agree to the terms? 2. Does Poland not have free healthcare, out of curiosity? 3. They aren't employees, they'd are simply "leasing" out the facilities in a contract and are paying a commission to the MoW for its use. This is not uncommon in many areas. In Europe (or Poland specifically), do companies typically offer benefits beyond pay for temporary workers, contractors, commission based agents, or for permissive use of leased equipment? They would not fall under the definition of an employee, which generally has an indefinite period of employment unless terminated by a party, has to report to a supervisor on how they perform the task (rather than simply being required to complete the task, which is a contractor). Although in this specific scenario I guess there are some arguments they could be considered employees (as MoW does provide equipment/tool). 4. Oh shit. The requirement included weekends? That's a major bust. How do the local labor laws in Poland (more of a question to anyone) respond to contract "work" that requires 7 days a week of work? I know in the U.S. if you're required to work 7 days, regardless of how many hours your work each individual day, it counts as overtime, IF you're an employee. To 1. : Didn't you read all the terms weren't revealed? And I'm not sure why you're okay with shit terms as long as no one goes there. That's like having every single tournament have no prizes and if you don't like it you don't play in them. The scene would die. Also I'm pretty sure that making people work 150 hours a month for free is illegal as well but... They did say that's only if they aren't doing anything else, so it's not really enforceable lol. As BoSs put it, it's to show that they have power.
But every minute of good practice counts even if the next tournament they enter won't be until 6 months from now. That's why they are there so by the time they enter a tournament their skill have been raised from good practice?
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if MoW did nothing wrong then they should come clean and show us the contract, right now all they got to show is 600 euro a month and that is shady as fuck
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On September 13 2012 13:13 FXOBoSs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 12:55 m0ck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. I don't really understand the appreciation for this post. You start out mentioning how you're not really up to speed on the situation, yet continue to lambast the people running MoW. Do you know what If charging for both rent, food and the attention of a coach AND taking a cut from streaming is necessary in order for MoW to run their business, how can you say that it is out of order? Should they charge more for living there? As far as I can tell, it is a way of keeping living expenses at a lower rate than they would be otherwise. Full board and the work of a coach for 600 euros a month is quite cheap from my perspective, even if living costs obviously differ regionally. But are you really in a position to make the judgment in any case? As for not improving while streaming - the former players seem to disagree. The same goes for the frat-house characterization. You are directly contradicting the former players in the house. People are forgetting that gaming-houses are a novelty in Europe and very rare. Most people practice at home. MoW has tried to make them work by making a business out of it and at least had the intention of helping players practice by providing some form of coaching. That is something we have not yet seen anywhere outside of Korea. Yes, mistakes have been made but this seems like a really glib dismissal from someone not very familiar with the situation. You are welcome to argue. I like a good debate. So, I have a team house in Korea, 15 players, they have heating, electric, maid, food etc all covered for them. Cost of living table can be found here: http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jspNote South Korea is significantly more expensive than Poland. Whilst, there is no Jaccuzzi in our team house, theres plenty of space, and its comfortable, I stay there regularly. If 15 people were to pay me 600 euro a month to live there. I could have 2 team houses with no money upfront. After 1 month of income from the first house, I could literally go out and rent the next one and the current one. Arguing about costs in e-sports is not really good. You can do things incredibly high quality and cheap in the best environment. Oh, and I didn't even mention taking stream income. There is no possible way you could prepare for a match in GSL, GSTL, IPTL, IPL finals, NASL finals on a stream. No way no how unless you are playing super standard. Which up until recently worked. But you will find it is not a long term strategy in sc2. Now, you are probably asking where I get my feedback from? I get it from Korea. I have lost a lot of touch with the foreign community, usually because of the difference in opinion, but the true reason is because I see them falling off (yes yes, I know stephano and mana and naniwa). The Koreans will tell you that streaming is far worse than practicing. To get my players to stream (to increase their exposure) has been a complete nightmare because they could be practicing far more constructively. And streaming official practice is 100% out of the question. I also know that if my players are playing someone who streams regularly they will watch their stream more than practice for the match, because it makes the other player predictable and therefore they know exactly what to do to win. Its sad drama has flooded into a house like this which could help players, but long term the players who go there need to find a team with a team house and leave MOW. MOW is much like the GOM house, and you can ask Naniwa or any others how much better it is to be in a team house than the GOM house. Trust me people got better in the GOM house as well, but no where near as much as they would with a normal team house environment.
Are the houses themselves operating for profit, however? How are they funded? Sponsorship? That is a huge factor. For smaller businesses, the tax rate will also be higher for Polish companies (19%) compared to Korean companies (initially only 10%, then when a certain limit is reached, not sure what, it increases to 22%). But if they aren't even operating for-profit, they don't have to even pay any taxes (so there goes a massive 19% swing).
From what I used to recall about the KeSPA houses, pretty much all the gamers are shoved into a few rooms. It wasn't unusual in a video for me to see 3-4 people (bunk beds) living in the same room. It was only used as an area for sleep, not personal space. Bedroom space is a massive factor for rent. Did they have the psychiatrists/mental help people? Does the house have gym equipment to work out? A massive backyard to move around in?
The streaming part might not be conducive for a top player, but that's more of a player's choice than anything to accept the terms or not. If you don't agree with the streaming terms, then don't go to the house, but it doesn't mean you don't have to support it for what they are trying to accomplish. Not agreeing with their business model doesn't mean you should be against them by any means - it merely means you would run it differently.
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Dear MoW,
Thank you for the most useless 'Press Release' of all time. I'm also underwhelmed at the quality of response, given the amount of time you took to come up with this 'answer'. Very interesting how slow you are and how you failed to address any of the issues raised. Feels like the American government all over again.
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I wonder what is the point of having pros from western countries to work for polish gaming house? After all, Poland is a poor and cheap country, if 600 euros is seriously not enough, why couldn't the gaming house have a proper fee to cover the costs.
GDP per capita in poland: 13.5k, finland: 49.5k, usa: 48.5k (source: wikipedia pages of poland, finland, usa)
OECD purchasing power index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity):
Finland: 127 , Poland: 60. So Poland is twice as cheap as finland. In finland you would have a very good pro house, if every player would pay 1200 euros a month.
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On September 13 2012 13:47 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 13:13 FXOBoSs wrote:On September 13 2012 12:55 m0ck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
I know for Kespa houses, exercise is very important, they have soccer (football) games all the time. Sometimes a tournament between the teams too
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. I don't really understand the appreciation for this post. You start out mentioning how you're not really up to speed on the situation, yet continue to lambast the people running MoW. Do you know what If charging for both rent, food and the attention of a coach AND taking a cut from streaming is necessary in order for MoW to run their business, how can you say that it is out of order? Should they charge more for living there? As far as I can tell, it is a way of keeping living expenses at a lower rate than they would be otherwise. Full board and the work of a coach for 600 euros a month is quite cheap from my perspective, even if living costs obviously differ regionally. But are you really in a position to make the judgment in any case? As for not improving while streaming - the former players seem to disagree. The same goes for the frat-house characterization. You are directly contradicting the former players in the house. People are forgetting that gaming-houses are a novelty in Europe and very rare. Most people practice at home. MoW has tried to make them work by making a business out of it and at least had the intention of helping players practice by providing some form of coaching. That is something we have not yet seen anywhere outside of Korea. Yes, mistakes have been made but this seems like a really glib dismissal from someone not very familiar with the situation. You are welcome to argue. I like a good debate. So, I have a team house in Korea, 15 players, they have heating, electric, maid, food etc all covered for them. Cost of living table can be found here: http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jspNote South Korea is significantly more expensive than Poland. Whilst, there is no Jaccuzzi in our team house, theres plenty of space, and its comfortable, I stay there regularly. If 15 people were to pay me 600 euro a month to live there. I could have 2 team houses with no money upfront. After 1 month of income from the first house, I could literally go out and rent the next one and the current one. Arguing about costs in e-sports is not really good. You can do things incredibly high quality and cheap in the best environment. Oh, and I didn't even mention taking stream income. There is no possible way you could prepare for a match in GSL, GSTL, IPTL, IPL finals, NASL finals on a stream. No way no how unless you are playing super standard. Which up until recently worked. But you will find it is not a long term strategy in sc2. Now, you are probably asking where I get my feedback from? I get it from Korea. I have lost a lot of touch with the foreign community, usually because of the difference in opinion, but the true reason is because I see them falling off (yes yes, I know stephano and mana and naniwa). The Koreans will tell you that streaming is far worse than practicing. To get my players to stream (to increase their exposure) has been a complete nightmare because they could be practicing far more constructively. And streaming official practice is 100% out of the question. I also know that if my players are playing someone who streams regularly they will watch their stream more than practice for the match, because it makes the other player predictable and therefore they know exactly what to do to win. Its sad drama has flooded into a house like this which could help players, but long term the players who go there need to find a team with a team house and leave MOW. MOW is much like the GOM house, and you can ask Naniwa or any others how much better it is to be in a team house than the GOM house. Trust me people got better in the GOM house as well, but no where near as much as they would with a normal team house environment. Are the houses themselves operating for profit, however? How are they funded? Sponsorship? That is a huge factor. For smaller businesses, the tax rate will also be higher for Polish companies (19%) compared to Korean companies (initially only 10%, then when a certain limit is reached, not sure what, it increases to 22%). But if they aren't even operating for-profit, they don't have to even pay any taxes (so there goes a massive 19% swing). From what I used to recall about the KeSPA houses, pretty much all the gamers are shoved into a few rooms. It wasn't unusual in a video for me to see 3-4 people (bunk beds) living in the same room. It was only used as an area for sleep, not personal space. Bedroom space is a massive factor for rent. Did they have the psychiatrists/mental help people? Does the house have gym equipment to work out? A massive backyard to move around in? The streaming part might not be conducive for a top player, but that's more of a player's choice than anything to accept the terms or not. If you don't agree with the streaming terms, then don't go to the house, but it doesn't mean you don't have to support it for what they are trying to accomplish. Not agreeing with their business model doesn't mean you should be against them by any means - it merely means you would run it differently.
I know for Kespa houses, exercise is very important, they have soccer (football) games all the time. Sometimes a tournament between the teams too
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On September 13 2012 13:47 zimz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 13:42 StarStruck wrote:On September 13 2012 13:35 Shikyo wrote:On September 13 2012 13:19 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2012 13:05 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 13:01 m0ck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:58 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 12:43 AlgeriaT wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. Given the posts by LgNkarmy and Snute who have both lived at the MoW house, it seems that - while what you say may be true - such a revamp is already underway, that MoW are learning from their mistakes and that they in fact are not malicious in their intent. Did you read these posts? I ask because I fear that your post (given your status in the community) may add significantly to a bonfire of hate based purely on hearsay from one evicted player and possibly lead to an undue mailbombing of sponsors, as already instigated by several trolls/overly aggressive posters in this thread. I disagree with you. In my opinion, it's only fair if we can hear both sides of the story and speculation. It doesn't even matter if revisions to the contract or whatever is underway. It does not change anything in Fuzer's situation, at all. In that regard, it does not concern this case in anyway. Oh, and to be honest, Snute's post isn't even remotely an insight. Every other line, he says, "I am not taking sides", and yet every other line he praises MoW/bashes Fuzer. He's a pro player, he benefited from the team house. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? So, posts from former players carry no value. Only rampant speculation from people outside the situation does. Makes sense. I am sorry, that's an over-generalization. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? And from what I've read from FXOBoss, I wouldn't denounce his speculation as rampant. Fuzer is significantly better than LgNKarmy or whatever his name is, who upon entering the MoW I'm not positive if he was even mid masters on NA. On September 13 2012 13:06 Inori wrote:On September 13 2012 08:23 MinistryOfWin wrote:
Streaming time - quote from the contract: 150 hours per month, unless having a series of training events or trips to StarCraft II tournaments. We are all humans, we are not forcing the players to stream 4 hours a day. I'm sure this was brought up before, but this is too good to pass. 168 hours/month is considered full time working hours. You're asking for relatively large monthly payment and on top of that make the guy work pretty much full time with no benefits like health insurance? How can anybody take this seriously? How could anybody agree to these bs terms? Few comments/questions. 1. If you don't like it, don't go? Don't agree to the terms? 2. Does Poland not have free healthcare, out of curiosity? 3. They aren't employees, they'd are simply "leasing" out the facilities in a contract and are paying a commission to the MoW for its use. This is not uncommon in many areas. In Europe (or Poland specifically), do companies typically offer benefits beyond pay for temporary workers, contractors, commission based agents, or for permissive use of leased equipment? They would not fall under the definition of an employee, which generally has an indefinite period of employment unless terminated by a party, has to report to a supervisor on how they perform the task (rather than simply being required to complete the task, which is a contractor). Although in this specific scenario I guess there are some arguments they could be considered employees (as MoW does provide equipment/tool). 4. Oh shit. The requirement included weekends? That's a major bust. How do the local labor laws in Poland (more of a question to anyone) respond to contract "work" that requires 7 days a week of work? I know in the U.S. if you're required to work 7 days, regardless of how many hours your work each individual day, it counts as overtime, IF you're an employee. To 1. : Didn't you read all the terms weren't revealed? And I'm not sure why you're okay with shit terms as long as no one goes there. That's like having every single tournament have no prizes and if you don't like it you don't play in them. The scene would die. Also I'm pretty sure that making people work 150 hours a month for free is illegal as well but... They did say that's only if they aren't doing anything else, so it's not really enforceable lol. As BoSs put it, it's to show that they have power. But every minute of good practice counts even if the next tournament they enter won't be until 6 months from now. That's why they are there so by the time they enter a tournament their skill have been raised from good practice?
If it is in fact good practice. Like I said, I'm very against the idea of streaming a whole lot.
If a player really wants to capitalize on streaming they would set-up a short schedule for every week that way your fanatics know well beforehand when they can tune in.
That way you do short hours of streaming and watch your viewer count go waaaay up. For top level players this is a good strategy and makes yourself look more marketable. Lower your supply and create more demand for people to tune in.
This way you are getting those hours you need for ample practice time and still pleasing your fans at the same time.
This only works for established players with a fanbase already.
For the other guys sure they will want to get all the exposure they can get. My message to them is simply the following: practice your asses off and get results to build your fanbase and followers. It's out of necessity to get results and that means not only putting the time in but getting the repetitions and precision practice required.
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On September 13 2012 13:26 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 13:15 StarStruck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:55 m0ck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. I don't really understand the appreciation for this post. You start out mentioning how you're not really up to speed on the situation, yet continue to lambast the people running MoW. Do you know what If charging for both rent, food and the attention of a coach AND taking a cut from streaming is necessary in order for MoW to run their business, how can you say that it is out of order? Should they charge more for living there? As far as I can tell, it is a way of keeping living expenses at a lower rate than they would be otherwise. Full board and the work of a coach for 600 euros a month is quite cheap from my perspective, even if living costs obviously differ regionally. But are you really in a position to make the judgment in any case? As for not improving while streaming - the former players seem to disagree. The same goes for the frat-house characterization. You are directly contradicting the former players in the house. People are forgetting that gaming-houses are a novelty in Europe and very rare. Most people practice at home. MoW has tried to make them work by making a business out of it and at least had the intention of helping players practice by providing some form of coaching. That is something we have not yet seen anywhere outside of Korea. Yes, mistakes have been made but this seems like a really glib dismissal from someone not very familiar with the situation. From the sound of it, he's very up to speed on the terms and no where did MoW's contradict Fuzer's points either. With that said, MoW's model and selection process to me simply won't help players improve. Ofc I don't know their secret tactics yet (Blackman/Ilnip secret tactics anyone?). Then again they did say it's void if they're participating in tournaments and what not. -__- Lol and by ilnp you mean whatever korean zerg that played on his account during wdt ( i think chojja lollll)
oversky iirc
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On September 13 2012 13:46 Inori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 13:19 FabledIntegral wrote:
Few comments/questions.
1. If you don't like it, don't go? Don't agree to the terms?
2. Does Poland not have free healthcare, out of curiosity?
3. They aren't employees, they'd are simply "leasing" out the facilities in a contract and are paying a commission to the MoW for its use. This is not uncommon in many areas. In Europe (or Poland specifically), do companies typically offer benefits beyond pay for temporary workers, contractors, commission based agents, or for permissive use of leased equipment? They would not fall under the definition of an employee, which generally has an indefinite period of employment unless terminated by a party, has to report to a supervisor on how they perform the task (rather than simply being required to complete the task, which is a contractor). Although in this specific scenario I guess there are some arguments they could be considered employees (as MoW does provide equipment/tool).
4. Oh shit. The requirement included weekends? That's a major bust. How do the local labor laws in Poland (more of a question to anyone) respond to contract "work" that requires 7 days a week of work? I know in the U.S. if you're required to work 7 days, regardless of how many hours your work each individual day, it counts as overtime, IF you're an employee. 1.) I'm amazed anybody actually liked/agreed. 2.) It's never free, it's usually only available if you're either working (then it's deducted from salary as a tax) or registered as unemployed. And even if it was free, it would've been only for registered residents, not outside visitors. 3.) Contractors don't get health benefits, yes. But with these terms they can probably be considered employees even if contract states otherwise. They provide an ongoing service for a fixed amount of time per month for a salary that is devised as a percentage of income (doesn't matter if it's called a cut from ad revenue. McD salary could be called a cut from burger sales). Honestly, I'd probably report MoW to local IRS.
A fixed amount of time (in terms of a 3 month duration or how long) is much less likely to be considered an employee.
The three main things you look for in distinction are behavior, finances, and type of relationship.
For behavior, if the MoW were to dictate what hours the players could stream, you'd have a better argument. But if it's up to the players themselves to decide how to do it, and that they simply must meet a 5 hour quota, then it's much more similar to a contractor. Thus in terms of behavior, it's more allusive to a contractor.
For finances, the MoW pretty much provides all the equipment and services to the members, which is pretty much slam dunk for employee. Sure people bring their own gaming equipment, but I'm sure the MoW has stock items that they could use instead.
For type of relationship, main things to consider are if the employee/contractor is working for a fixed period or indefinite period of time. This is typically a fixed period - the players are not expected to stay indefinitely and provide ongoing services. If a contract needs to be renewed every X amount of years, this is even more evidence of a contractor. If it's a one time contract that is signed concerning terms and does not need to be renewed every 6 months or year or so, then it's more like an employee, but I doubt this is the case in MoW. The other thing to consider is whether the employer provides certain benefits or not (ironically what was being discussed, which they don't) - if paid time off, vacation, amount of sick days, pension plan, stock options, healthcare, insurance, or really anything along those lines, then it signifies an employee. Lack of these items signifies a contractor.
With this common law, it's majority that determines the outcome, GENERALLY speaking. With behavior and finances leaning towards contractor and only finances leaning towards employee, I'd say there's a strong case, by U.S. standards (fuck if I know how Poland interprets it, which unfortunately is absolutely crucial in this case), that they are not employees.
On September 13 2012 13:53 StorrZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 13:47 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2012 13:13 FXOBoSs wrote:On September 13 2012 12:55 m0ck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
I know for Kespa houses, exercise is very important, they have soccer (football) games all the time. Sometimes a tournament between the teams too
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. I don't really understand the appreciation for this post. You start out mentioning how you're not really up to speed on the situation, yet continue to lambast the people running MoW. Do you know what If charging for both rent, food and the attention of a coach AND taking a cut from streaming is necessary in order for MoW to run their business, how can you say that it is out of order? Should they charge more for living there? As far as I can tell, it is a way of keeping living expenses at a lower rate than they would be otherwise. Full board and the work of a coach for 600 euros a month is quite cheap from my perspective, even if living costs obviously differ regionally. But are you really in a position to make the judgment in any case? As for not improving while streaming - the former players seem to disagree. The same goes for the frat-house characterization. You are directly contradicting the former players in the house. People are forgetting that gaming-houses are a novelty in Europe and very rare. Most people practice at home. MoW has tried to make them work by making a business out of it and at least had the intention of helping players practice by providing some form of coaching. That is something we have not yet seen anywhere outside of Korea. Yes, mistakes have been made but this seems like a really glib dismissal from someone not very familiar with the situation. You are welcome to argue. I like a good debate. So, I have a team house in Korea, 15 players, they have heating, electric, maid, food etc all covered for them. Cost of living table can be found here: http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jspNote South Korea is significantly more expensive than Poland. Whilst, there is no Jaccuzzi in our team house, theres plenty of space, and its comfortable, I stay there regularly. If 15 people were to pay me 600 euro a month to live there. I could have 2 team houses with no money upfront. After 1 month of income from the first house, I could literally go out and rent the next one and the current one. Arguing about costs in e-sports is not really good. You can do things incredibly high quality and cheap in the best environment. Oh, and I didn't even mention taking stream income. There is no possible way you could prepare for a match in GSL, GSTL, IPTL, IPL finals, NASL finals on a stream. No way no how unless you are playing super standard. Which up until recently worked. But you will find it is not a long term strategy in sc2. Now, you are probably asking where I get my feedback from? I get it from Korea. I have lost a lot of touch with the foreign community, usually because of the difference in opinion, but the true reason is because I see them falling off (yes yes, I know stephano and mana and naniwa). The Koreans will tell you that streaming is far worse than practicing. To get my players to stream (to increase their exposure) has been a complete nightmare because they could be practicing far more constructively. And streaming official practice is 100% out of the question. I also know that if my players are playing someone who streams regularly they will watch their stream more than practice for the match, because it makes the other player predictable and therefore they know exactly what to do to win. Its sad drama has flooded into a house like this which could help players, but long term the players who go there need to find a team with a team house and leave MOW. MOW is much like the GOM house, and you can ask Naniwa or any others how much better it is to be in a team house than the GOM house. Trust me people got better in the GOM house as well, but no where near as much as they would with a normal team house environment. Are the houses themselves operating for profit, however? How are they funded? Sponsorship? That is a huge factor. For smaller businesses, the tax rate will also be higher for Polish companies (19%) compared to Korean companies (initially only 10%, then when a certain limit is reached, not sure what, it increases to 22%). But if they aren't even operating for-profit, they don't have to even pay any taxes (so there goes a massive 19% swing). From what I used to recall about the KeSPA houses, pretty much all the gamers are shoved into a few rooms. It wasn't unusual in a video for me to see 3-4 people (bunk beds) living in the same room. It was only used as an area for sleep, not personal space. Bedroom space is a massive factor for rent. Did they have the psychiatrists/mental help people? Does the house have gym equipment to work out? A massive backyard to move around in? The streaming part might not be conducive for a top player, but that's more of a player's choice than anything to accept the terms or not. If you don't agree with the streaming terms, then don't go to the house, but it doesn't mean you don't have to support it for what they are trying to accomplish. Not agreeing with their business model doesn't mean you should be against them by any means - it merely means you would run it differently. I know for Kespa houses, exercise is very important, they have soccer (football) games all the time. Sometimes a tournament between the teams too
Yep, I remember reading about that. Was it effort that was badass at soccer, or best? Regardless, it's not on premises. And the cost of going to the park or a field is much cheaper than costly assets such as purchasing workout equipment. Assuming you can find a field easily in SK.
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I needed to bring this up MOW said: "Most of the players receive the contract before they arrive. For some players, we are offering different conditions in the contract. We hadn’t signed the contract with Fuzer before he arrived, and this is undoubtedly a mistake that can't be repeated again.”
So what, depending on the player, thats the contract you make? If you see him young and naive, you take advantage of that and if a known player comes then give him "good treat"? . What is this?!!!
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So they players stream to make money for the house right? Why not have the players choose themselves how to make the money? They could just pay little more (say 100 euros), so they didnt need to stream. Okay, then the players can stream as much as they like to cover the 100 euros for themselves. Or not do it, if they dont like it.
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they should pay him back the money they owe. total bs trying to force him to stay quiet by using that as leverage! mow going on my personal boycott list until they settle this in a respectable manner. take that stupid house!
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as an american that has done a lot of business with eastern europe (software industry) their contracts are scary as hell/VERY 'power' emphasized...i think other countries are far worse than poland usually. totally vouch for boss' position.
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I think we need an expert in polish business law and possibly international(at least EU business law) in order to actually understand what the heck is going on here at least in relation to where this discussion has gone. 
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EPT
