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On September 13 2012 13:07 Gardel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 13:03 StorrZerg wrote:On September 13 2012 13:01 m0ck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:58 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 12:43 AlgeriaT wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. Given the posts by LgNkarmy and Snute who have both lived at the MoW house, it seems that - while what you say may be true - such a revamp is already underway, that MoW are learning from their mistakes and that they in fact are not malicious in their intent. Did you read these posts? I ask because I fear that your post (given your status in the community) may add significantly to a bonfire of hate based purely on hearsay from one evicted player and possibly lead to an undue mailbombing of sponsors, as already instigated by several trolls/overly aggressive posters in this thread. I disagree with you. In my opinion, it's only fair if we can hear both sides of the story and speculation. It doesn't even matter if revisions to the contract or whatever is underway. It does not change anything in Fuzer's situation, at all. In that regard, it does not concern this case in anyway. Oh, and to be honest, Snute's post isn't even remotely an insight. Every other line, he says, "I am not taking sides", and yet every other line he praises MoW/bashes Fuzer. He's a pro player, he benefited from the team house. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? So, posts from former players carry no value. Only rampant speculation from people outside the situation does. Makes sense. hardly, hes trying to point out the possible discrimination. Honestly the only 2 parties i want to hear from at this time is MoW and Fuzer. WHen than people blindly defends 1 side, do you find it as a 100% reliable source?
Sorry i don't understand your question/statement.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On September 13 2012 13:07 Gardel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 13:03 StorrZerg wrote:On September 13 2012 13:01 m0ck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:58 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 12:43 AlgeriaT wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. Given the posts by LgNkarmy and Snute who have both lived at the MoW house, it seems that - while what you say may be true - such a revamp is already underway, that MoW are learning from their mistakes and that they in fact are not malicious in their intent. Did you read these posts? I ask because I fear that your post (given your status in the community) may add significantly to a bonfire of hate based purely on hearsay from one evicted player and possibly lead to an undue mailbombing of sponsors, as already instigated by several trolls/overly aggressive posters in this thread. I disagree with you. In my opinion, it's only fair if we can hear both sides of the story and speculation. It doesn't even matter if revisions to the contract or whatever is underway. It does not change anything in Fuzer's situation, at all. In that regard, it does not concern this case in anyway. Oh, and to be honest, Snute's post isn't even remotely an insight. Every other line, he says, "I am not taking sides", and yet every other line he praises MoW/bashes Fuzer. He's a pro player, he benefited from the team house. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? So, posts from former players carry no value. Only rampant speculation from people outside the situation does. Makes sense. hardly, hes trying to point out the possible discrimination. Honestly the only 2 parties i want to hear from at this time is MoW and Fuzer. WHen than people blindly defends 1 side, do you find it as a 100% reliable source?
*ahem* Snute's post? - repeatedly says he's trying to be constructive and neutral, then proceeds to praise MoW and bash Fuzer and how he shouldn't even be there in the first place without even addressing the problems claimed by Fuzer. On the other hand, FXOBoss points out and analyzes what he sees from the contract. Yeah..
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On September 13 2012 12:55 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. I don't really understand the appreciation for this post. You start out mentioning how you're not really up to speed on the situation, yet continue to lambast the people running MoW. Do you know what If charging for both rent, food and the attention of a coach AND taking a cut from streaming is necessary in order for MoW to run their business, how can you say that it is out of order? Should they charge more for living there? As far as I can tell, it is a way of keeping living expenses at a lower rate than they would be otherwise. Full board and the work of a coach for 600 euros a month is quite cheap from my perspective, even if living costs obviously differ regionally. But are you really in a position to make the judgment in any case? As for not improving while streaming - the former players seem to disagree. The same goes for the frat-house characterization. You are directly contradicting the former players in the house. People are forgetting that gaming-houses are a novelty in Europe and very rare. Most people practice at home. MoW has tried to make them work by making a business out of it and at least had the intention of helping players practice by providing some form of coaching. That is something we have not yet seen anywhere outside of Korea. Yes, mistakes have been made but this seems like a really glib dismissal from someone not very familiar with the situation.
You are welcome to argue.
I like a good debate. So, I have a team house in Korea, 15 players, they have heating, electric, maid, food etc all covered for them. Cost of living table can be found here: http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jsp
Note South Korea is significantly more expensive than Poland.
Whilst, there is no Jaccuzzi in our team house, theres plenty of space, and its comfortable, I stay there regularly.
If 15 people were to pay me 600 euro a month to live there. I could have 2 team houses with no money upfront. After 1 month of income from the first house, I could literally go out and rent the next one and the current one.
Arguing about costs in e-sports is not really good. You can do things incredibly high quality and cheap in the best environment. Oh, and I didn't even mention taking stream income.
There is no possible way you could prepare for a match in GSL, GSTL, IPTL, IPL finals, NASL finals on a stream. No way no how unless you are playing super standard. Which up until recently worked. But you will find it is not a long term strategy in sc2.
Now, you are probably asking where I get my feedback from? I get it from Korea. I have lost a lot of touch with the foreign community, usually because of the difference in opinion, but the true reason is because I see them falling off (yes yes, I know stephano and mana and naniwa). The Koreans will tell you that streaming is far worse than practicing. To get my players to stream (to increase their exposure) has been a complete nightmare because they could be practicing far more constructively. And streaming official practice is 100% out of the question. I also know that if my players are playing someone who streams regularly they will watch their stream more than practice for the match, because it makes the other player predictable and therefore they know exactly what to do to win.
Its sad drama has flooded into a house like this which could help players, but long term the players who go there need to find a team with a team house and leave MOW. MOW is much like the GOM house, and you can ask Naniwa or any others how much better it is to be in a team house than the GOM house. Trust me people got better in the GOM house as well, but no where near as much as they would with a normal team house environment.
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On September 13 2012 12:55 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. I don't really understand the appreciation for this post. You start out mentioning how you're not really up to speed on the situation, yet continue to lambast the people running MoW. Do you know what If charging for both rent, food and the attention of a coach AND taking a cut from streaming is necessary in order for MoW to run their business, how can you say that it is out of order? Should they charge more for living there? As far as I can tell, it is a way of keeping living expenses at a lower rate than they would be otherwise. Full board and the work of a coach for 600 euros a month is quite cheap from my perspective, even if living costs obviously differ regionally. But are you really in a position to make the judgment in any case? As for not improving while streaming - the former players seem to disagree. The same goes for the frat-house characterization. You are directly contradicting the former players in the house. People are forgetting that gaming-houses are a novelty in Europe and very rare. Most people practice at home. MoW has tried to make them work by making a business out of it and at least had the intention of helping players practice by providing some form of coaching. That is something we have not yet seen anywhere outside of Korea. Yes, mistakes have been made but this seems like a really glib dismissal from someone not very familiar with the situation.
From the sound of it, he's very up to speed on the terms and no where did MoW's contradict Fuzer's points either.
With that said, MoW's model and selection process to me simply won't help players improve. Ofc I don't know their secret tactics yet (Blackman/Ilnip secret tactics anyone?).
Then again they did say it's void if they're participating in tournaments and what not. -__-
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The whole idea just seems rubbish to me; forcing gamers to stream x hours, and taking % of their revenue, all while charging them rent. Maybe if it was Hawaii I could understand, but Poland?
LOL to Fuzer tho, as you have no excuse for being there. I understand that travelling long distances to stay in a house with gamers will always be tough. But if you don't hammer out those details before you book a flight, shame on you for being so foolish. However, the 10year rule contract is really dumb.
MoW admitting that the contract was wrong, and they "fixed it" makes them deserve all the flame they got.
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On September 13 2012 13:06 Inori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 08:23 MinistryOfWin wrote:
Streaming time - quote from the contract: 150 hours per month, unless having a series of training events or trips to StarCraft II tournaments. We are all humans, we are not forcing the players to stream 4 hours a day. I'm sure this was brought up before, but this is too good to pass. 168 hours/month is considered full time working hours. You're asking for relatively large monthly payment and on top of that make the guy work pretty much full time with no benefits like health insurance? How can anybody take this seriously? How could anybody agree to these bs terms?
It is where "esports" and competitive gaming is at and has been at it since the early 2000s. Things only marginally improved from the late 90s where pro gamers won a giant bottle of a coke and a gamepad/mouse for their troubles.
I wish people would understand that this is not some strange exception to the rule, it is quite common, unfulfilled promises, betrayal, shady "contracts", pressure are all a huge part of the esport underground. Where young, naive players are often taken advantage off any way possible because there is nobody looking over this shit. The idea that you can play a game and live of it is a dream that is too enticing for too many, even if it means almost living in poverty and spending your youth in front of a computer screen.
If things do hopefully improve one day, it will be in the distant future, and the hard working players of today wont be the ones benefiting from it, they will be trailblazers, the ones who paved the way for the next generation.
We are still at "its still better to get a job at McD than be a progamer financially, mentally and even physically!"
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On September 13 2012 13:05 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 13:01 m0ck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:58 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 12:43 AlgeriaT wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. Given the posts by LgNkarmy and Snute who have both lived at the MoW house, it seems that - while what you say may be true - such a revamp is already underway, that MoW are learning from their mistakes and that they in fact are not malicious in their intent. Did you read these posts? I ask because I fear that your post (given your status in the community) may add significantly to a bonfire of hate based purely on hearsay from one evicted player and possibly lead to an undue mailbombing of sponsors, as already instigated by several trolls/overly aggressive posters in this thread. I disagree with you. In my opinion, it's only fair if we can hear both sides of the story and speculation. It doesn't even matter if revisions to the contract or whatever is underway. It does not change anything in Fuzer's situation, at all. In that regard, it does not concern this case in anyway. Oh, and to be honest, Snute's post isn't even remotely an insight. Every other line, he says, "I am not taking sides", and yet every other line he praises MoW/bashes Fuzer. He's a pro player, he benefited from the team house. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? So, posts from former players carry no value. Only rampant speculation from people outside the situation does. Makes sense. I am sorry, that's an over-generalization. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? And from what I've read from FXOBoss, I wouldn't denounce his speculation as rampant.
Fuzer is significantly better than LgNKarmy or whatever his name is, who upon entering the MoW I'm not positive if he was even mid masters on NA.
On September 13 2012 13:06 Inori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 08:23 MinistryOfWin wrote:
Streaming time - quote from the contract: 150 hours per month, unless having a series of training events or trips to StarCraft II tournaments. We are all humans, we are not forcing the players to stream 4 hours a day. I'm sure this was brought up before, but this is too good to pass. 168 hours/month is considered full time working hours. You're asking for relatively large monthly payment and on top of that make the guy work pretty much full time with no benefits like health insurance? How can anybody take this seriously? How could anybody agree to these bs terms?
Few comments/questions.
1. If you don't like it, don't go? Don't agree to the terms?
2. Does Poland not have free healthcare, out of curiosity?
3. They aren't employees, they'd are simply "leasing" out the facilities in a contract and are paying a commission to the MoW for its use. This is not uncommon in many areas. In Europe (or Poland specifically), do companies typically offer benefits beyond pay for temporary workers, contractors, commission based agents, or for permissive use of leased equipment? They would not fall under the definition of an employee, which generally has an indefinite period of employment unless terminated by a party, has to report to a supervisor on how they perform the task (rather than simply being required to complete the task, which is a contractor). Although in this specific scenario I guess there are some arguments they could be considered employees (as MoW does provide equipment/tool).
4. Oh shit. The requirement included weekends? That's a major bust. How do the local labor laws in Poland (more of a question to anyone) respond to contract "work" that requires 7 days a week of work? I know in the U.S. if you're required to work 7 days, regardless of how many hours your work each individual day, it counts as overtime, IF you're an employee.
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On September 13 2012 12:55 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. I don't really understand the appreciation for this post. You start out mentioning how you're not really up to speed on the situation, yet continue to lambast the people running MoW. Do you know what If charging for both rent, food and the attention of a coach AND taking a cut from streaming is necessary in order for MoW to run their business, how can you say that it is out of order? Should they charge more for living there? As far as I can tell, it is a way of keeping living expenses at a lower rate than they would be otherwise. Full board and the work of a coach for 600 euros a month is quite cheap from my perspective, even if living costs obviously differ regionally. But are you really in a position to make the judgment in any case? As for not improving while streaming - the former players seem to disagree. The same goes for the frat-house characterization. You are directly contradicting the former players in the house. People are forgetting that gaming-houses are a novelty in Europe and very rare. Most people practice at home. MoW has tried to make them work by making a business out of it and at least had the intention of helping players practice by providing some form of coaching. That is something we have not yet seen anywhere outside of Korea. Yes, mistakes have been made but this seems like a really glib dismissal from someone not very familiar with the situation.
you didn't get the point. if the team house was made with the ideal that players can get a confortable environment where they could focus on practicing to get better, they are failing miserably. if you think streaming doesn't affect players development and practice you really don't know what you're talking about.
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Denying a lawyer before signing a contract in my country is illegal, and u cant ask about licenses and shit, even if the other person is not a lawyer and just a student or w/e, its his right and u cant do anything about it specially if the contract is not in his mother language. If you want to see if hes a real lawyer you go to the registry and check it yourself in your free time douchebag.
He already confirmed by himself the streaming obligation (lol), desrow talked about food, so yeah, im pretty sure OP is not lying.
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On September 13 2012 13:19 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 13:05 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 13:01 m0ck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:58 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 12:43 AlgeriaT wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. Given the posts by LgNkarmy and Snute who have both lived at the MoW house, it seems that - while what you say may be true - such a revamp is already underway, that MoW are learning from their mistakes and that they in fact are not malicious in their intent. Did you read these posts? I ask because I fear that your post (given your status in the community) may add significantly to a bonfire of hate based purely on hearsay from one evicted player and possibly lead to an undue mailbombing of sponsors, as already instigated by several trolls/overly aggressive posters in this thread. I disagree with you. In my opinion, it's only fair if we can hear both sides of the story and speculation. It doesn't even matter if revisions to the contract or whatever is underway. It does not change anything in Fuzer's situation, at all. In that regard, it does not concern this case in anyway. Oh, and to be honest, Snute's post isn't even remotely an insight. Every other line, he says, "I am not taking sides", and yet every other line he praises MoW/bashes Fuzer. He's a pro player, he benefited from the team house. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? So, posts from former players carry no value. Only rampant speculation from people outside the situation does. Makes sense. I am sorry, that's an over-generalization. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? And from what I've read from FXOBoss, I wouldn't denounce his speculation as rampant. Fuzer is significantly better than LgNKarmy or whatever his name is, who upon entering the MoW I'm not positive if he was even mid masters on NA.
A training facility such as MoW's should be geared for up-and-comers. I use that word loosely. Not emerging stars or players who are already established. Although judging from Jos' games today he most certainly could use some work.
I don't mind having a few established players visiting the guest rooms. They have more to offer, anyway if you are trying to build the house up you really want to show what kind of results a player can have from participating in the house and that means showing a huge increase in improvement to help sell other players to apply to stay.
I would have arranged it a little differently.
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I have a serious beef with the ministry of win press release being at the top of the post now. It's not like they shouldn't get a say here, but couldn't the counter-point come after the point? Like it or not, giving those dudes the say first shapes the way people are going to take this whole debacle and since this is Fuzer's complaint post he should get the first say. Let's advocate for our guy instead of directly publicizing MoW's indirect sanitation effort. Besides--this post doesn't even look like rebuttal--they don't even address Fuzer's (very serious, very plausible) charges.
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On September 13 2012 13:15 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 12:55 m0ck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. I don't really understand the appreciation for this post. You start out mentioning how you're not really up to speed on the situation, yet continue to lambast the people running MoW. Do you know what If charging for both rent, food and the attention of a coach AND taking a cut from streaming is necessary in order for MoW to run their business, how can you say that it is out of order? Should they charge more for living there? As far as I can tell, it is a way of keeping living expenses at a lower rate than they would be otherwise. Full board and the work of a coach for 600 euros a month is quite cheap from my perspective, even if living costs obviously differ regionally. But are you really in a position to make the judgment in any case? As for not improving while streaming - the former players seem to disagree. The same goes for the frat-house characterization. You are directly contradicting the former players in the house. People are forgetting that gaming-houses are a novelty in Europe and very rare. Most people practice at home. MoW has tried to make them work by making a business out of it and at least had the intention of helping players practice by providing some form of coaching. That is something we have not yet seen anywhere outside of Korea. Yes, mistakes have been made but this seems like a really glib dismissal from someone not very familiar with the situation. From the sound of it, he's very up to speed on the terms and no where did MoW's contradict Fuzer's points either. With that said, MoW's model and selection process to me simply won't help players improve. Ofc I don't know their secret tactics yet (Blackman/Ilnip secret tactics anyone?). Then again they did say it's void if they're participating in tournaments and what not. -__-
Lol and by ilnp you mean whatever korean zerg that played on his account during wdt  ( i think chojja lollll)
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On September 13 2012 13:19 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 13:05 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 13:01 m0ck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:58 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 12:43 AlgeriaT wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. Given the posts by LgNkarmy and Snute who have both lived at the MoW house, it seems that - while what you say may be true - such a revamp is already underway, that MoW are learning from their mistakes and that they in fact are not malicious in their intent. Did you read these posts? I ask because I fear that your post (given your status in the community) may add significantly to a bonfire of hate based purely on hearsay from one evicted player and possibly lead to an undue mailbombing of sponsors, as already instigated by several trolls/overly aggressive posters in this thread. I disagree with you. In my opinion, it's only fair if we can hear both sides of the story and speculation. It doesn't even matter if revisions to the contract or whatever is underway. It does not change anything in Fuzer's situation, at all. In that regard, it does not concern this case in anyway. Oh, and to be honest, Snute's post isn't even remotely an insight. Every other line, he says, "I am not taking sides", and yet every other line he praises MoW/bashes Fuzer. He's a pro player, he benefited from the team house. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? So, posts from former players carry no value. Only rampant speculation from people outside the situation does. Makes sense. I am sorry, that's an over-generalization. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? And from what I've read from FXOBoss, I wouldn't denounce his speculation as rampant. Fuzer is significantly better than LgNKarmy or whatever his name is, who upon entering the MoW I'm not positive if he was even mid masters on NA.
iirc, he said in his blogs that he was diamond/masters when he went
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On September 13 2012 13:19 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 13:05 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 13:01 m0ck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:58 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 12:43 AlgeriaT wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. Given the posts by LgNkarmy and Snute who have both lived at the MoW house, it seems that - while what you say may be true - such a revamp is already underway, that MoW are learning from their mistakes and that they in fact are not malicious in their intent. Did you read these posts? I ask because I fear that your post (given your status in the community) may add significantly to a bonfire of hate based purely on hearsay from one evicted player and possibly lead to an undue mailbombing of sponsors, as already instigated by several trolls/overly aggressive posters in this thread. I disagree with you. In my opinion, it's only fair if we can hear both sides of the story and speculation. It doesn't even matter if revisions to the contract or whatever is underway. It does not change anything in Fuzer's situation, at all. In that regard, it does not concern this case in anyway. Oh, and to be honest, Snute's post isn't even remotely an insight. Every other line, he says, "I am not taking sides", and yet every other line he praises MoW/bashes Fuzer. He's a pro player, he benefited from the team house. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? So, posts from former players carry no value. Only rampant speculation from people outside the situation does. Makes sense. I am sorry, that's an over-generalization. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? And from what I've read from FXOBoss, I wouldn't denounce his speculation as rampant. Fuzer is significantly better than LgNKarmy or whatever his name is, who upon entering the MoW I'm not positive if he was even mid masters on NA.
Is that even a counter-argument? Did you even read LgNKarmy's twitter? He started defending MoW blah blah blah, then he stated that MoW agreed to change a bunch of the details within the contract between them, and that MoW complied.
Now, here's a simple logic test. If there's no issues whatsoever like he previously claimed, why was there a sudden urge to modify the contract at all?
If there's no problems like LgNKarmy claimed, he should have been satisfied with the contract he previously signed and just stuck to it. Oh wait.. That makes too much sense.
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On September 13 2012 13:23 ilbh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 12:55 m0ck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. I don't really understand the appreciation for this post. You start out mentioning how you're not really up to speed on the situation, yet continue to lambast the people running MoW. Do you know what If charging for both rent, food and the attention of a coach AND taking a cut from streaming is necessary in order for MoW to run their business, how can you say that it is out of order? Should they charge more for living there? As far as I can tell, it is a way of keeping living expenses at a lower rate than they would be otherwise. Full board and the work of a coach for 600 euros a month is quite cheap from my perspective, even if living costs obviously differ regionally. But are you really in a position to make the judgment in any case? As for not improving while streaming - the former players seem to disagree. The same goes for the frat-house characterization. You are directly contradicting the former players in the house. People are forgetting that gaming-houses are a novelty in Europe and very rare. Most people practice at home. MoW has tried to make them work by making a business out of it and at least had the intention of helping players practice by providing some form of coaching. That is something we have not yet seen anywhere outside of Korea. Yes, mistakes have been made but this seems like a really glib dismissal from someone not very familiar with the situation. you didn't get the point. if the team house was made with the ideal that players can get a confortable environment where they could focus on practicing to get better, they are failing miserably. if you think streaming doesn't affect players development and practice you really don't know what you're talking about.
Excuse me? Despite once again me having to reiterate no one is forcing people to attend, pretty much ALL the testimonials of members have clearly stated otherwise. In fact, the members have pretty much all stated management has taken a proactive approach in fixing problems. Should they have partied their asses off and woken up everyone at 4AM? Of course not, it's not conducive at all to what they're trying to achieve; it was a clear fuckup BUT they damn well addressed it and made sure it did not happen again.
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Just a small thing I noticed. I may be ignorant, but are high costs perhaps due to what Ministry of Win trying to do?
The Ministry of Win was firstly announced as International Gaming House in December 2011; however, a few months later Ministry of Win was redefined as the first professional training facility for pro-gamers, and in May 2012 MoW house had its official opening in Warsaw, Poland. First two players who decided to visit were Cytoplasm and Wilko. What makes Ministry of Win so much different from other gaming facilities is players constant access to psychologists, motivators which has never been done before. On top of that MoW provides gym, well-designed diet for every gamer in the house, and more.
Psychologists, motivators, a supposedly well designed diet, a gym, etc. That all sounds relatively expensive. Someone said before they were getting like fish and salads for meals before more people showed up.
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On September 13 2012 13:31 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 13:19 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2012 13:05 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 13:01 m0ck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:58 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 12:43 AlgeriaT wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. Given the posts by LgNkarmy and Snute who have both lived at the MoW house, it seems that - while what you say may be true - such a revamp is already underway, that MoW are learning from their mistakes and that they in fact are not malicious in their intent. Did you read these posts? I ask because I fear that your post (given your status in the community) may add significantly to a bonfire of hate based purely on hearsay from one evicted player and possibly lead to an undue mailbombing of sponsors, as already instigated by several trolls/overly aggressive posters in this thread. I disagree with you. In my opinion, it's only fair if we can hear both sides of the story and speculation. It doesn't even matter if revisions to the contract or whatever is underway. It does not change anything in Fuzer's situation, at all. In that regard, it does not concern this case in anyway. Oh, and to be honest, Snute's post isn't even remotely an insight. Every other line, he says, "I am not taking sides", and yet every other line he praises MoW/bashes Fuzer. He's a pro player, he benefited from the team house. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? So, posts from former players carry no value. Only rampant speculation from people outside the situation does. Makes sense. I am sorry, that's an over-generalization. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? And from what I've read from FXOBoss, I wouldn't denounce his speculation as rampant. Fuzer is significantly better than LgNKarmy or whatever his name is, who upon entering the MoW I'm not positive if he was even mid masters on NA. Is that even a counter-argument? Did you even read LgNKarmy's twitter? He started defending MoW blah blah blah, then he stated that MoW agreed to change a bunch of the details within the contract between them, and that MoW complied. Now, here's a simple logic test. If there's no issues whatsoever like he previously claimed, why was there a sudden urge to modify the contract at all? If there's no problems like LgNKarmy claimed, he should have been satisfied with the contract he previously signed and just stuck to it. Oh wait.. That makes too much sense.
Of course it's a counter argument. You were saying they wouldn't treat such a casual with as much leniency. Clearly Karmy was very happy with his experience.
And are you insinuating negotiations over contract terms isn't the standard in nearly every industry in existence?
On September 13 2012 13:26 ajxPurpleRain wrote:
I have a serious beef with the ministry of win press release being at the top of the post now. It's not like they shouldn't get a say here, but couldn't the counter-point come after the point? Like it or not, giving those dudes the say first shapes the way people are going to take this whole debacle and since this is Fuzer's complaint post he should get the first say. Let's advocate for our guy instead of directly publicizing MoW's indirect sanitation effort. Besides--this post doesn't even look like rebuttal--they don't even address Fuzer's (very serious, very plausible) charges.
To be honest, who's going to read a rebuttal statement without first reading the thread? I don't think it's much of an issue, and simply brings attention that the MoW has responded (well not really, I think it was a fucking awful press release) to Fuzer's post.
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On September 13 2012 13:13 FXOBoSs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 12:55 m0ck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. I don't really understand the appreciation for this post. You start out mentioning how you're not really up to speed on the situation, yet continue to lambast the people running MoW. Do you know what If charging for both rent, food and the attention of a coach AND taking a cut from streaming is necessary in order for MoW to run their business, how can you say that it is out of order? Should they charge more for living there? As far as I can tell, it is a way of keeping living expenses at a lower rate than they would be otherwise. Full board and the work of a coach for 600 euros a month is quite cheap from my perspective, even if living costs obviously differ regionally. But are you really in a position to make the judgment in any case? As for not improving while streaming - the former players seem to disagree. The same goes for the frat-house characterization. You are directly contradicting the former players in the house. People are forgetting that gaming-houses are a novelty in Europe and very rare. Most people practice at home. MoW has tried to make them work by making a business out of it and at least had the intention of helping players practice by providing some form of coaching. That is something we have not yet seen anywhere outside of Korea. Yes, mistakes have been made but this seems like a really glib dismissal from someone not very familiar with the situation. You are welcome to argue. I like a good debate. So, I have a team house in Korea, 15 players, they have heating, electric, maid, food etc all covered for them. Cost of living table can be found here: http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jspNote South Korea is significantly more expensive than Poland. Whilst, there is no Jaccuzzi in our team house, theres plenty of space, and its comfortable, I stay there regularly. If 15 people were to pay me 600 euro a month to live there. I could have 2 team houses with no money upfront. After 1 month of income from the first house, I could literally go out and rent the next one and the current one. Arguing about costs in e-sports is not really good. You can do things incredibly high quality and cheap in the best environment. Oh, and I didn't even mention taking stream income. There is no possible way you could prepare for a match in GSL, GSTL, IPTL, IPL finals, NASL finals on a stream. No way no how unless you are playing super standard. Which up until recently worked. But you will find it is not a long term strategy in sc2. Now, you are probably asking where I get my feedback from? I get it from Korea. I have lost a lot of touch with the foreign community, usually because of the difference in opinion, but the true reason is because I see them falling off (yes yes, I know stephano and mana and naniwa). The Koreans will tell you that streaming is far worse than practicing. To get my players to stream (to increase their exposure) has been a complete nightmare because they could be practicing far more constructively. And streaming official practice is 100% out of the question. I also know that if my players are playing someone who streams regularly they will watch their stream more than practice for the match, because it makes the other player predictable and therefore they know exactly what to do to win. Its sad drama has flooded into a house like this which could help players, but long term the players who go there need to find a team with a team house and leave MOW. MOW is much like the GOM house, and you can ask Naniwa or any others how much better it is to be in a team house than the GOM house. Trust me people got better in the GOM house as well, but no where near as much as they would with a normal team house environment.
People need to read this.
Ministry of Streaming. 150 hours a month? ....
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On September 13 2012 13:19 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 13:05 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 13:01 m0ck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:58 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 12:43 AlgeriaT wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. Given the posts by LgNkarmy and Snute who have both lived at the MoW house, it seems that - while what you say may be true - such a revamp is already underway, that MoW are learning from their mistakes and that they in fact are not malicious in their intent. Did you read these posts? I ask because I fear that your post (given your status in the community) may add significantly to a bonfire of hate based purely on hearsay from one evicted player and possibly lead to an undue mailbombing of sponsors, as already instigated by several trolls/overly aggressive posters in this thread. I disagree with you. In my opinion, it's only fair if we can hear both sides of the story and speculation. It doesn't even matter if revisions to the contract or whatever is underway. It does not change anything in Fuzer's situation, at all. In that regard, it does not concern this case in anyway. Oh, and to be honest, Snute's post isn't even remotely an insight. Every other line, he says, "I am not taking sides", and yet every other line he praises MoW/bashes Fuzer. He's a pro player, he benefited from the team house. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? So, posts from former players carry no value. Only rampant speculation from people outside the situation does. Makes sense. I am sorry, that's an over-generalization. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? And from what I've read from FXOBoss, I wouldn't denounce his speculation as rampant. Fuzer is significantly better than LgNKarmy or whatever his name is, who upon entering the MoW I'm not positive if he was even mid masters on NA. Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 13:06 Inori wrote:On September 13 2012 08:23 MinistryOfWin wrote:
Streaming time - quote from the contract: 150 hours per month, unless having a series of training events or trips to StarCraft II tournaments. We are all humans, we are not forcing the players to stream 4 hours a day. I'm sure this was brought up before, but this is too good to pass. 168 hours/month is considered full time working hours. You're asking for relatively large monthly payment and on top of that make the guy work pretty much full time with no benefits like health insurance? How can anybody take this seriously? How could anybody agree to these bs terms? Few comments/questions. 1. If you don't like it, don't go? Don't agree to the terms? 2. Does Poland not have free healthcare, out of curiosity? 3. They aren't employees, they'd are simply "leasing" out the facilities in a contract and are paying a commission to the MoW for its use. This is not uncommon in many areas. In Europe (or Poland specifically), do companies typically offer benefits beyond pay for temporary workers, contractors, commission based agents, or for permissive use of leased equipment? They would not fall under the definition of an employee, which generally has an indefinite period of employment unless terminated by a party, has to report to a supervisor on how they perform the task (rather than simply being required to complete the task, which is a contractor). Although in this specific scenario I guess there are some arguments they could be considered employees (as MoW does provide equipment/tool). 4. Oh shit. The requirement included weekends? That's a major bust. How do the local labor laws in Poland (more of a question to anyone) respond to contract "work" that requires 7 days a week of work? I know in the U.S. if you're required to work 7 days, regardless of how many hours your work each individual day, it counts as overtime, IF you're an employee.
To 1. : Didn't you read all the terms weren't revealed? And I'm not sure why you're okay with shit terms as long as no one goes there. That's like having every single tournament have no prizes and if you don't like it you don't play in them. The scene would die.
Also I'm pretty sure that making people work 150 hours a month for free is illegal as well but...
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On September 13 2012 13:32 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 13:31 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 13:19 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2012 13:05 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 13:01 m0ck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:58 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 12:43 AlgeriaT wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. Given the posts by LgNkarmy and Snute who have both lived at the MoW house, it seems that - while what you say may be true - such a revamp is already underway, that MoW are learning from their mistakes and that they in fact are not malicious in their intent. Did you read these posts? I ask because I fear that your post (given your status in the community) may add significantly to a bonfire of hate based purely on hearsay from one evicted player and possibly lead to an undue mailbombing of sponsors, as already instigated by several trolls/overly aggressive posters in this thread. I disagree with you. In my opinion, it's only fair if we can hear both sides of the story and speculation. It doesn't even matter if revisions to the contract or whatever is underway. It does not change anything in Fuzer's situation, at all. In that regard, it does not concern this case in anyway. Oh, and to be honest, Snute's post isn't even remotely an insight. Every other line, he says, "I am not taking sides", and yet every other line he praises MoW/bashes Fuzer. He's a pro player, he benefited from the team house. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? So, posts from former players carry no value. Only rampant speculation from people outside the situation does. Makes sense. I am sorry, that's an over-generalization. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? And from what I've read from FXOBoss, I wouldn't denounce his speculation as rampant. Fuzer is significantly better than LgNKarmy or whatever his name is, who upon entering the MoW I'm not positive if he was even mid masters on NA. Is that even a counter-argument? Did you even read LgNKarmy's twitter? He started defending MoW blah blah blah, then he stated that MoW agreed to change a bunch of the details within the contract between them, and that MoW complied. Now, here's a simple logic test. If there's no issues whatsoever like he previously claimed, why was there a sudden urge to modify the contract at all? If there's no problems like LgNKarmy claimed, he should have been satisfied with the contract he previously signed and just stuck to it. Oh wait.. That makes too much sense. Of course it's a counter argument. You were saying they wouldn't treat such a casual with as much leniency. Clearly Karmy was very happy with his experience. And are you insinuating negotiations over contract terms isn't the standard in nearly every industry in existence? Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 13:26 ajxPurpleRain wrote:
I have a serious beef with the ministry of win press release being at the top of the post now. It's not like they shouldn't get a say here, but couldn't the counter-point come after the point? Like it or not, giving those dudes the say first shapes the way people are going to take this whole debacle and since this is Fuzer's complaint post he should get the first say. Let's advocate for our guy instead of directly publicizing MoW's indirect sanitation effort. Besides--this post doesn't even look like rebuttal--they don't even address Fuzer's (very serious, very plausible) charges. To be honest, who's going to read a rebuttal statement without first reading the thread? I don't think it's much of an issue, and simply brings attention that the MoW has responded (well not really, I think it was a fucking awful press release) to Fuzer's post.
Lol, reading is fundamental. You can make it out to be what you want, but that's nowhere close to what I said, at all. Suit yourself. I am glad others read my words for what they are and even tried to explain it to you. You can disagree or w/e all you want, but I'd like to see logical counter-arguments for a change. Nice try with the straw man fallacy though. Peace.
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