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On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment.
This should go to the OP together with Snutes and Kanes posts  Great insight!
Edit: And the reddit Post about the Bosses past is really insightful, i suggest you check it out.
Link: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/zs2bh/drama_in_mow_house/c678kmj if i did this permalink stuff right
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Im pretty sure 600 euros a month for living in poland is very expensive. Boss showing whats up!
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Pretty disappointed with MoW right now, that statement was so lack luster..
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On September 13 2012 12:53 StorrZerg wrote:
Pretty disappointed with MoW right now, that statement was so lack luster..
Didn´t you like the interviews in the 2 videos?
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On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment.
I don't really understand the appreciation for this post. You start out mentioning how you're not really up to speed on the situation, yet continue to lambast the people running MoW.
Do you know what If charging for both rent, food and the attention of a coach AND taking a cut from streaming is necessary in order for MoW to run their business, how can you say that it is out of order? Should they charge more for living there? As far as I can tell, it is a way of keeping living expenses at a lower rate than they would be otherwise. Full board and the work of a coach for 600 euros a month is quite cheap from my perspective, even if living costs obviously differ regionally. But are you really in a position to make the judgment in any case?
As for not improving while streaming - the former players seem to disagree. The same goes for the frat-house characterization. You are directly contradicting the former players in the house.
People are forgetting that gaming-houses are a novelty in Europe and very rare. Most people practice at home. MoW has tried to make them work by making a business out of it and at least had the intention of helping players practice by providing some form of coaching. That is something we have not yet seen anywhere outside of Korea. Yes, mistakes have been made but this seems like a really glib dismissal from someone not very familiar with the situation.
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I don't agree on american law, american format etc... EU law would make much more sense. Otherwise that post is pretty good, yes.
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On September 13 2012 12:54 Gardel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 12:53 StorrZerg wrote:
Pretty disappointed with MoW right now, that statement was so lack luster.. Didn´t you like the interviews in the 2 videos?
Doesn't talk about the issue at hand, just throwing candy at us hoping this drama just goes away. I don't like it one bit.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On September 13 2012 12:43 AlgeriaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. Given the posts by LgNkarmy and Snute who have both lived at the MoW house, it seems that - while what you say may be true - such a revamp is already underway, that MoW are learning from their mistakes and that they in fact are not malicious in their intent. Did you read these posts? I ask because I fear that your post (given your status in the community) may add significantly to a bonfire of hate based purely on hearsay from one evicted player and possibly lead to an undue mailbombing of sponsors, as already instigated by several trolls/overly aggressive posters in this thread.
I disagree with you. In my opinion, it's only fair if we can hear both sides of the story and speculation. It doesn't even matter if revisions to the contract or whatever is underway. It does not change anything in Fuzer's situation, at all. In that regard, it does not concern this case in anyway.
Oh, and to be honest, Snute's post isn't even remotely an insight. Every other line, he says, "I am not taking sides", and yet every other line he praises MoW/bashes Fuzer. He's a pro player, he benefited from the MoW house. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player?
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On September 13 2012 12:43 AlgeriaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. Given the posts by LgNkarmy and Snute who have both lived at the MoW house, it seems that - while what you say may be true - such a revamp is already underway, that MoW are learning from their mistakes and that they in fact are not malicious in their intent. Did you read these posts? I ask because I fear that your post (given your status in the community) may add significantly to a bonfire of hate based purely on hearsay from one evicted player and possibly lead to an undue mailbombing of sponsors, as already instigated by several trolls/overly aggressive posters in this thread.
Under-going, does not mean done. I appreciate what they have said. I accept that. And I will be happy to hype MOW up when they are done and its seen. As I said, something needs to be done. If its being done. Fantastic. I wait for the results to cheer for it.
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On September 13 2012 10:30 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 10:29 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2012 10:23 ragz_gt wrote:On September 13 2012 10:15 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2012 09:53 ragz_gt wrote:On September 13 2012 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2012 09:43 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:On September 13 2012 09:37 Noispaxen wrote:On September 13 2012 09:19 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:On September 13 2012 09:15 Noispaxen wrote:
[quote]
You don't get it, do you? If they stream 8hours of day, it means they have 11days a month to not stream at all!
And frankly, when all you do is playing Starcraft all day long, its not troublesome at all. I have streamed myself around 8hours in 1day a few times and it wasn't annoying at all, despite doing it with 20-40viewers avg. I'm sure if I actually had a reasonable number of viewers (like ~100 and more) I would love to do that.
And try to understand the fact, that people like Fuzer would never get any money at all from Twitch, cause they would never get a partnership without MoW, so in fact he still was getting more money than the $0 he would normally get. Lol, the whole point is to get better. 1.) People do not get better when they stream their practice. Numerous pro players have said that streaming their practice games hinders their play and does not help them in any way. 2.) 8 hours straight 3 or 4 days in a row? Do you realize how tiring that is? You can stream that maybe one or two times a week, but doing that every week? Even the highest amount of streamers have to take breaks and can't do that. TLO had 142.5 hours, a ridiculous amount and had to take long breaks during his streaming. 3.) If they really want money from their streaming, fine whatever. Why not just include that cost in the contract and allow them to take whatever money they make from streaming? It's not really fair to tell them after the fact that they have to stream 5 hours a day (at least) and then tell them they don't even get to keep all of the money. If you're not even getting adequate amounts of food, why should you be giving them ADDITIONAL money to WORK? You clearly have no idea what you are writing about. 1.) Yes, I can agree with you about this point, it's probably not good to stream your practice, strategies etc. for the competitive reasons, however, that pretty much applies for the real top pros, inventing new strategies etc. 2.) It's not tiring at all... Streaming doesn't equal having a webcam and microphone on and talking 24/7 while playing. All you have to do is having x-split on in the background while you play, if you don't feel like it you don't have to talk, you don't even need to check the chat. Also, they know about it before coming, they aren't getting told after the fact that they don't keep all the money. Please, don't even mention the food because it's just silly point. Fuzer saying they get only 1hot meal a day is just hard to consider serious. Yes, believe it or not, but in Poland we have breakfast, which is usually sandwiches/fruits/cereals, dinner which is the biggest meal of the day and is hot, and then supper which is usually sandwiches again (altough of course you can have some hot stuff like sausages, eggs and what not). 3.) Please, realise that if not for MoW, Fuzer would get literally ZERO money whatsoever from streaming! Check the requirements Twitch.tv actually has before they can give you partnership and share the ad revenue with you. The truth is Fuzer would pretty much never get it and he should be glad that MoW with their partnership actually gives him the opportunity to get some money from it. LOL Ok so you agree with #1, your argument for #2 is that it's "not tiring at all," yet you keep ignoring my point. You can't take a break if you're streaming without losing revenue (no one to run ads), you can't really take a break to go get a meal, and you can't really go to the bathroom without losing revenue. That is indeed tiring. You also can't really just go workout (something ideal to playing and practicing well) if you're streaming. #3, I already acknowledged this, but if he's going to be making money from the streaming, why the fuck would they not just include it in his contract to begin with (maybe 50 euros more) and then just tell him keep the money from streaming. Instead, they're making him stream a shit ton and he basically gets no money from it. Wtf. That's just screwed up and not fair to Fuzer. Also, your whole claim that in Poland you have breakfast is absolute bs. In America, it's common not to eat breakfast for many people. Does that mean everyone doesn't eat breakfast? Karmy already said that the meals was an issue at MoW, so why are you arguing that they weren't? Your entire post just shows how you are blindly defending MoW for stuff that is absolutely unacceptable by today's standards. I don't understand your second point. Then you just lose revenue if you don't run the ads. Whatever. How is that an issue, compared to if you weren't making any revenue regardless if you weren't streaming in the first place? Go to the fucking bathroom and take a "revenue hit" that you suspect would happen.... who cares.... Streaming itself is not an issue. But why would stream be mandatory for people who pays to get better, when streaming have not shown to actually help people getting better? It people want stream, then they can stream, if people practice better not streaming, it should be their choice since they paid to stay there to get better. Because it's part of the damn contract? Honestly... Exactly, that's WHY he is asking his lawyer to check out the contract. And Fuzer claim they didn't tell him BEFORE he got there, which MoW or anyone else have not refuted. Irrelevant to what you stated. You asked why streaming would be mandatory for people who paid to be there and are trying to get better. THAT point can be answered simply with because it's MoW's choice to do so as terms in their contract. That argument seems to be very circular. One could ask, "why is it in the contract?"
No, it's actually not. The business gets to set the ground rules. It's a one way starting point. It's YOUR (whoever they are pursuing as a client/customer) choice whether not to accept their terms. You vote with your wallet. If they have shitty terms, they will go out of business. But it is their prerogative (holy fuck JUST learned it's not perogative?!) that can ultimately choose what can happen (assuming it's legal). If they want to say they receive 95% of the streaming revenue for 7 hours per day, that's fine. Just no one will go to them.
On September 13 2012 10:34 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 10:29 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2012 10:23 ragz_gt wrote:On September 13 2012 10:15 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2012 09:53 ragz_gt wrote:On September 13 2012 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2012 09:43 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:On September 13 2012 09:37 Noispaxen wrote:On September 13 2012 09:19 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:On September 13 2012 09:15 Noispaxen wrote:
[quote]
You don't get it, do you? If they stream 8hours of day, it means they have 11days a month to not stream at all!
And frankly, when all you do is playing Starcraft all day long, its not troublesome at all. I have streamed myself around 8hours in 1day a few times and it wasn't annoying at all, despite doing it with 20-40viewers avg. I'm sure if I actually had a reasonable number of viewers (like ~100 and more) I would love to do that.
And try to understand the fact, that people like Fuzer would never get any money at all from Twitch, cause they would never get a partnership without MoW, so in fact he still was getting more money than the $0 he would normally get. Lol, the whole point is to get better. 1.) People do not get better when they stream their practice. Numerous pro players have said that streaming their practice games hinders their play and does not help them in any way. 2.) 8 hours straight 3 or 4 days in a row? Do you realize how tiring that is? You can stream that maybe one or two times a week, but doing that every week? Even the highest amount of streamers have to take breaks and can't do that. TLO had 142.5 hours, a ridiculous amount and had to take long breaks during his streaming. 3.) If they really want money from their streaming, fine whatever. Why not just include that cost in the contract and allow them to take whatever money they make from streaming? It's not really fair to tell them after the fact that they have to stream 5 hours a day (at least) and then tell them they don't even get to keep all of the money. If you're not even getting adequate amounts of food, why should you be giving them ADDITIONAL money to WORK? You clearly have no idea what you are writing about. 1.) Yes, I can agree with you about this point, it's probably not good to stream your practice, strategies etc. for the competitive reasons, however, that pretty much applies for the real top pros, inventing new strategies etc. 2.) It's not tiring at all... Streaming doesn't equal having a webcam and microphone on and talking 24/7 while playing. All you have to do is having x-split on in the background while you play, if you don't feel like it you don't have to talk, you don't even need to check the chat. Also, they know about it before coming, they aren't getting told after the fact that they don't keep all the money. Please, don't even mention the food because it's just silly point. Fuzer saying they get only 1hot meal a day is just hard to consider serious. Yes, believe it or not, but in Poland we have breakfast, which is usually sandwiches/fruits/cereals, dinner which is the biggest meal of the day and is hot, and then supper which is usually sandwiches again (altough of course you can have some hot stuff like sausages, eggs and what not). 3.) Please, realise that if not for MoW, Fuzer would get literally ZERO money whatsoever from streaming! Check the requirements Twitch.tv actually has before they can give you partnership and share the ad revenue with you. The truth is Fuzer would pretty much never get it and he should be glad that MoW with their partnership actually gives him the opportunity to get some money from it. LOL Ok so you agree with #1, your argument for #2 is that it's "not tiring at all," yet you keep ignoring my point. You can't take a break if you're streaming without losing revenue (no one to run ads), you can't really take a break to go get a meal, and you can't really go to the bathroom without losing revenue. That is indeed tiring. You also can't really just go workout (something ideal to playing and practicing well) if you're streaming. #3, I already acknowledged this, but if he's going to be making money from the streaming, why the fuck would they not just include it in his contract to begin with (maybe 50 euros more) and then just tell him keep the money from streaming. Instead, they're making him stream a shit ton and he basically gets no money from it. Wtf. That's just screwed up and not fair to Fuzer. Also, your whole claim that in Poland you have breakfast is absolute bs. In America, it's common not to eat breakfast for many people. Does that mean everyone doesn't eat breakfast? Karmy already said that the meals was an issue at MoW, so why are you arguing that they weren't? Your entire post just shows how you are blindly defending MoW for stuff that is absolutely unacceptable by today's standards. I don't understand your second point. Then you just lose revenue if you don't run the ads. Whatever. How is that an issue, compared to if you weren't making any revenue regardless if you weren't streaming in the first place? Go to the fucking bathroom and take a "revenue hit" that you suspect would happen.... who cares.... Streaming itself is not an issue. But why would stream be mandatory for people who pays to get better, when streaming have not shown to actually help people getting better? It people want stream, then they can stream, if people practice better not streaming, it should be their choice since they paid to stay there to get better. Because it's part of the damn contract? Honestly... Exactly, that's WHY he is asking his lawyer to check out the contract. And Fuzer claim they didn't tell him BEFORE he got there, which MoW or anyone else have not refuted. Irrelevant to what you stated. You asked why streaming would be mandatory for people who paid to be there and are trying to get better. THAT point can be answered simply with because it's MoW's choice to do so as terms in their contract. Besides the point that if people not tell you important information such as this before hand, you'd get upset / suspicious too, I was responding to claim that Stream 150 hour a month was totally expected / normal for people who pay to train, and your claim about contract have absolutely nothing to do with that conversation.
Just to get this out of the way, I agree with the first part wholeheartedly - that's super sketchy not to tell them, but at the same time, it is YOUR responsibility to ask for the contract ahead of time. For example, if you travel all the way out there only to find you don't agree to the terms in the contract, you don't have to sign it. Of course, it'd be a massive fucking waste of your time and travel expenses, and would also give the MoW a reputation of operating under bad faith, whether or not it was intentional by them. Not to mention that MoW could also say "ok, we'll take no cut, but you don't get to be included in our twitch.tv model we have set up, and you can keep all your own revenue yourself." If they did this, chances are they'd be even worse off, so it's highly dependent on what was disclosed and what wasn't. But yes, very shady.
I'm the type of person to give the entrepreneurs, which is exactly what MoW is in the European market (and really global market since it's operating on a different model than the Korean houses), a ton of slack, so maybe it's my bias as a business economics major who sees a ton of value in that line. Of course they aren't going to have everything perfect right off, they don't even have a good model to base what they should be doing off of. And many companies that DO have one still fuck up.
Paying to train once again is irrelevant because it's simply part of terms negotiated in a contract, which stems to asking for a contract first. I think it's completely legitimate to ask for streaming revenue. Fuck, MoW made this huge ass investment (very risky), set up all the details for the streaming revenue, worked out getting funds/sponsorship for all the computer equipment needed to stream at the highest of quality (not cheap, and I doubt electronic prices are very cheap in Poland since there's free trade in the EU and its' the same currency), the bandwidth, all the other amenities, etc. It can be viewed as a friggin' commission for utilization of their resources/streaming plan, while the 600 euro rent could be attributed more towards shelter.
The way I see it, is that they have to operate at a profit. And for a venture like this, they'll need a decent profit to pay off their investments, etc. So they can get their revenue from a number of sources. If they didn't take a commission, maybe they would charge 750 or 800 Euros for rent. Is there really a bit difference? Or if they took in something like 85% of the streaming revenue, but let everyone stay rent free and still eat free food and take advantage of their amenities? In my eyes, it's the net result of how much money flows out of their client base and into their pockets, and I still see this as far from exploitative.
tl;dr: Agreed not mentioning taking partial streaming revenues is shady. It's an individual's responsibility to ask for the contract ahead of time. MoW was a risky venture but is an amazing entrepreneurship, should be given slack for not having anything worked out already, and should be praised for attempting to fix their mistakes. Their business model is their own choice to set up, and if you don't like it, don't go. Just because they may have fucked up with Fuzer does not mean we should burn them; rather we should be supportive when they decide to try to make amends (even if strongarmed by the community).
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On September 13 2012 12:58 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 12:43 AlgeriaT wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. Given the posts by LgNkarmy and Snute who have both lived at the MoW house, it seems that - while what you say may be true - such a revamp is already underway, that MoW are learning from their mistakes and that they in fact are not malicious in their intent. Did you read these posts? I ask because I fear that your post (given your status in the community) may add significantly to a bonfire of hate based purely on hearsay from one evicted player and possibly lead to an undue mailbombing of sponsors, as already instigated by several trolls/overly aggressive posters in this thread. I disagree with you. In my opinion, it's only fair if we can hear both sides of the story and speculation. It doesn't even matter if revisions to the contract or whatever is underway. It does not change anything in Fuzer's situation, at all. In that regard, it does not concern this case in anyway. Oh, and to be honest, Snute's post isn't even remotely an insight. Every other line, he says, "I am not taking sides", and yet every other line he praises MoW/bashes Fuzer. He's a pro player, he benefited from the team house. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player?
So, posts from former players carry no value. Only rampant speculation from people outside the situation does. Makes sense.
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On September 13 2012 10:16 Noispaxen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 10:13 Shikyo wrote:
Many people missing the point....
The main issue is them not letting him consult his lawyer about the contract(and not paying back immediately). Everything else, like the things with the house, are secondary. They did let him consult his lawyer and he was consulting him. He might have not seen the contract, but that's because MoW requested his license(which is completely normal), and Fuzer didn't provide it.
That's bullshit. If english is not my 1st language i want someone to read it and maybe it is not my lawyer but my friend who studies that shit, speaks english since hes 2 yrs old and can give me a good yes or no on the question.
I have no idea why the hell this "Boss" would use such a short deadline as well as the "license" thing.
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On September 13 2012 13:01 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 12:58 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 12:43 AlgeriaT wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. Given the posts by LgNkarmy and Snute who have both lived at the MoW house, it seems that - while what you say may be true - such a revamp is already underway, that MoW are learning from their mistakes and that they in fact are not malicious in their intent. Did you read these posts? I ask because I fear that your post (given your status in the community) may add significantly to a bonfire of hate based purely on hearsay from one evicted player and possibly lead to an undue mailbombing of sponsors, as already instigated by several trolls/overly aggressive posters in this thread. I disagree with you. In my opinion, it's only fair if we can hear both sides of the story and speculation. It doesn't even matter if revisions to the contract or whatever is underway. It does not change anything in Fuzer's situation, at all. In that regard, it does not concern this case in anyway. Oh, and to be honest, Snute's post isn't even remotely an insight. Every other line, he says, "I am not taking sides", and yet every other line he praises MoW/bashes Fuzer. He's a pro player, he benefited from the team house. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? So, posts from former players carry no value. Only rampant speculation from people outside the situation does. Makes sense.
hardly, hes trying to point out the possible discrimination. Honestly the only 2 parties i want to hear from at this time is MoW and Fuzer.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On September 13 2012 13:01 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 12:58 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 12:43 AlgeriaT wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. Given the posts by LgNkarmy and Snute who have both lived at the MoW house, it seems that - while what you say may be true - such a revamp is already underway, that MoW are learning from their mistakes and that they in fact are not malicious in their intent. Did you read these posts? I ask because I fear that your post (given your status in the community) may add significantly to a bonfire of hate based purely on hearsay from one evicted player and possibly lead to an undue mailbombing of sponsors, as already instigated by several trolls/overly aggressive posters in this thread. I disagree with you. In my opinion, it's only fair if we can hear both sides of the story and speculation. It doesn't even matter if revisions to the contract or whatever is underway. It does not change anything in Fuzer's situation, at all. In that regard, it does not concern this case in anyway. Oh, and to be honest, Snute's post isn't even remotely an insight. Every other line, he says, "I am not taking sides", and yet every other line he praises MoW/bashes Fuzer. He's a pro player, he benefited from the team house. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? So, posts from former players carry no value. Only rampant speculation from people outside the situation does. Makes sense.
I am sorry, that's an over-generalization. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? And from what I've read from FXOBoss, I wouldn't denounce his speculation as rampant.
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On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment.
w00t, FXOBoss being uber boss. Glad to hear people in the industry acknowledging how silly a decade long ncc is. It's really funny to imagine Koreans sueing them for thinking to put gamers in the same house to train, and hiring cooks and maids for them, because they own those ideas and no one else is allowed to have them xD.
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On September 13 2012 13:03 StorrZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 13:01 m0ck wrote:On September 13 2012 12:58 dacimvrl wrote:On September 13 2012 12:43 AlgeriaT wrote:On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote:
I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients.
Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project.
The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment. Given the posts by LgNkarmy and Snute who have both lived at the MoW house, it seems that - while what you say may be true - such a revamp is already underway, that MoW are learning from their mistakes and that they in fact are not malicious in their intent. Did you read these posts? I ask because I fear that your post (given your status in the community) may add significantly to a bonfire of hate based purely on hearsay from one evicted player and possibly lead to an undue mailbombing of sponsors, as already instigated by several trolls/overly aggressive posters in this thread. I disagree with you. In my opinion, it's only fair if we can hear both sides of the story and speculation. It doesn't even matter if revisions to the contract or whatever is underway. It does not change anything in Fuzer's situation, at all. In that regard, it does not concern this case in anyway. Oh, and to be honest, Snute's post isn't even remotely an insight. Every other line, he says, "I am not taking sides", and yet every other line he praises MoW/bashes Fuzer. He's a pro player, he benefited from the team house. Do you naively believe MoW would treat a random guy with the same leniency and respect as a pro player? So, posts from former players carry no value. Only rampant speculation from people outside the situation does. Makes sense. hardly, hes trying to point out the possible discrimination. Honestly the only 2 parties i want to hear from at this time is MoW and Fuzer.
WHen than people blindly defends 1 side, do you find it as a 100% reliable source?
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Small claims court are for these exact reasons 
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On September 13 2012 11:56 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 11:43 Yuen_pl wrote:On September 13 2012 11:39 WilDMousE wrote:
Feels kinda shady to find some low post people from the exact same country trying to "save" MoW. LOL man, i'm in this forum for something like 8 years. Don't try to make assumptions, really. I've never even spoken to any of MoW guys. you totally convinced me dude. 8 years of not posting at all, then all of a sudden, some drama that doesn't even remotely concern you, you just hop in and defend a random side for no reason.
Actually to be fair, I remember several instances of Polish pride on the line where they end up coming out in droves.
So, I'm not really baffled at all the support coming from a lot of these guys.
Reminds me of old times.
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Jesus. What scumbags. The second i read the fine print on some of those ridiculous stipulations, i would've been out of there.
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EPT
