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On September 13 2012 09:32 pallad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 09:23 ragz_gt wrote:On September 13 2012 09:17 pallad wrote:On September 13 2012 08:57 btx0 wrote:
This is ridiculous. 150h / month streaming, 10 year non compete, pressuring people into signing a contract without legal council, paying back money only after bad publicity and a very weak press release not addressing the issue at all.
Unless these things get cleared up I'd be surprised to see anyone joining MoW. LOL when you live in gaming house and you play only one game , why you DONT stream ? Its good for player fans to see them stream.. , people that are biching around that players stream to much lol.. its good for players also , they can make more fans by streams. 10 year non compete ? you dont even read this OP good. You can compete where you wanna. You just cant make your own gaming house and take ideas from MoW house , this is in document. On September 13 2012 09:17 Ikuu wrote:
MoW sounds shady as fuck. 10 year non-compete, forcing people to stream a certain number of hours and then taking a cut, and for some reason they need to sign an NDA. another one.. read up. Because Stream is NOT good for training. Polt suffered greatly when he non stop streamed, same with ForGG. And all the top streamer on TL is not getting any better. Going by your logic...let pro gamers DONT STREAM , then what with us fans..? how to support players ? how to cheer for them.. ? Players wanna stream because of fans , and they make money from streaming. They have closed pratcice sesions in MoW house first 5 h of day , when they play custom games.. and there is time for stream for fans.. money.. and ladder. I ask once agine ... you wanna players stop streams..? really ? I dont get you. Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 09:31 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
What kind of fucking "press release" was that? What amateurs.... That was absolutely ridiculous just give the guy back his 2000 and piss off...
The actual "press release" as they call it states nothing it gives 2 interviews and... one paragraph? Ministry of Win is quickly turning into the Ministry of Shit And you must be blind to miss that...or what ? http://esfiworld.com/news/ministry-win-respond-fuzers-claims OPEN YOUR EYES MAN
Thats why the players didnt really improve in MoW
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On September 13 2012 09:34 saksy2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 09:33 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:On September 13 2012 09:28 LgNkarmy wrote:
It wasn't 8 hours a day, What do you do while living in a pro gaming house? You play video games. I would play SC2 hours past our scheduled practice just because we were all there because we loved the game, we wanted to improve, and really it was the only thing to do at night until you went to bed. It was very easy to find time to get in a few hours of streaming. It wasn't 8 hours a day... How many times do we have to go over this argument: In the contract, it says 150 hours. That is 5 hours a day (assuming that it's an average 30/31 day month). If you're going to take 2 days off of streaming (which is being generous, most people only stream 2 or 3 days a week), you need to stream 7 hours for 5 days a week. Let's say that you're being somewhat realistic and allowing time to eat, get a good night's rest (8 hours), exercise, and socialize. That's about 10 hours left of the day (assuming 8 for sleeping, an hour per meal, an hour to exercise, 2 hours for socializing/relaxing). If you're streaming 7 hours, that only leaves you 3 hours of private practice. That's really not a lot to make new builds, practice with different people, and do custom games. That's about 12 private games (average 10-15 minute games) and then a little bit of time to go over replays. That's a pretty underwhelming practice regime, all things considered. Streaming really isn't great practice for those top tier pros that need to perfect builds for tournaments. Karmy said 100 hours was the correct number
Fuzer's "contract" (don't even know how to properly word it) said 150. MoW is able to sign people to different contracts, and Karmy was there relatively early on in MoW.
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The MoW statement is an atrocious piece of junk. It doesn't actually deal with any of the accusation or say anything about their side of the story and business practices, it just says, hey here's some guys who liked it. -_-
You can do better than that. Release a real statement.
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On September 13 2012 09:32 pallad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 09:23 ragz_gt wrote:On September 13 2012 09:17 pallad wrote:On September 13 2012 08:57 btx0 wrote:
This is ridiculous. 150h / month streaming, 10 year non compete, pressuring people into signing a contract without legal council, paying back money only after bad publicity and a very weak press release not addressing the issue at all.
Unless these things get cleared up I'd be surprised to see anyone joining MoW. LOL when you live in gaming house and you play only one game , why you DONT stream ? Its good for player fans to see them stream.. , people that are biching around that players stream to much lol.. its good for players also , they can make more fans by streams. 10 year non compete ? you dont even read this OP good. You can compete where you wanna. You just cant make your own gaming house and take ideas from MoW house , this is in document. On September 13 2012 09:17 Ikuu wrote:
MoW sounds shady as fuck. 10 year non-compete, forcing people to stream a certain number of hours and then taking a cut, and for some reason they need to sign an NDA. another one.. read up. Because Stream is NOT good for training. Polt suffered greatly when he non stop streamed, same with ForGG. And all the top streamer on TL is not getting any better. Going by your logic...let pro gamers DONT STREAM , then what with us fans..? how to support players ? how to cheer for them.. ? Players wanna stream because of fans , and they make money from streaming. They have closed pratcice sesions in MoW house first 5 h of day , when they play custom games.. and there is time for stream for fans.. money.. and ladder. I ask once agine ... you wanna players stop streams..? really ? I dont get you.
No, but I don't feel it should be mandatory. It should be player's choice. When they pay to get better, it is a pretty raw deal to be forced to do something that have shown to not help players getting better as much as a full time job.
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On September 13 2012 09:34 saksy2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 09:33 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:On September 13 2012 09:28 LgNkarmy wrote:
It wasn't 8 hours a day, What do you do while living in a pro gaming house? You play video games. I would play SC2 hours past our scheduled practice just because we were all there because we loved the game, we wanted to improve, and really it was the only thing to do at night until you went to bed. It was very easy to find time to get in a few hours of streaming. It wasn't 8 hours a day... How many times do we have to go over this argument: In the contract, it says 150 hours. That is 5 hours a day (assuming that it's an average 30/31 day month). If you're going to take 2 days off of streaming (which is being generous, most people only stream 2 or 3 days a week), you need to stream 7 hours for 5 days a week. Let's say that you're being somewhat realistic and allowing time to eat, get a good night's rest (8 hours), exercise, and socialize. That's about 10 hours left of the day (assuming 8 for sleeping, an hour per meal, an hour to exercise, 2 hours for socializing/relaxing). If you're streaming 7 hours, that only leaves you 3 hours of private practice. That's really not a lot to make new builds, practice with different people, and do custom games. That's about 12 private games (average 10-15 minute games) and then a little bit of time to go over replays. That's a pretty underwhelming practice regime, all things considered. Streaming really isn't great practice for those top tier pros that need to perfect builds for tournaments. Karmy said 100 hours was the correct number
wrong he said it was the Number WHEN HE STAYED THERE. I think we can assume 150 is currently correct as both MoW and desRow did not correct Fuzer on this, and its causing a high amount of uproar
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On September 13 2012 09:32 pallad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 09:23 ragz_gt wrote:On September 13 2012 09:17 pallad wrote:On September 13 2012 08:57 btx0 wrote:
This is ridiculous. 150h / month streaming, 10 year non compete, pressuring people into signing a contract without legal council, paying back money only after bad publicity and a very weak press release not addressing the issue at all.
Unless these things get cleared up I'd be surprised to see anyone joining MoW. LOL when you live in gaming house and you play only one game , why you DONT stream ? Its good for player fans to see them stream.. , people that are biching around that players stream to much lol.. its good for players also , they can make more fans by streams. 10 year non compete ? you dont even read this OP good. You can compete where you wanna. You just cant make your own gaming house and take ideas from MoW house , this is in document. On September 13 2012 09:17 Ikuu wrote:
MoW sounds shady as fuck. 10 year non-compete, forcing people to stream a certain number of hours and then taking a cut, and for some reason they need to sign an NDA. another one.. read up. Because Stream is NOT good for training. Polt suffered greatly when he non stop streamed, same with ForGG. And all the top streamer on TL is not getting any better. Going by your logic...let pro gamers DONT STREAM , then what with us fans..? how to support players ? how to cheer for them.. ? Players wanna stream because of fans , and they make money from streaming. They have closed pratcice sesions in MoW house first 5 h of day , when they play custom games.. and there is time for stream for fans.. money.. and ladder. I ask once agine ... you wanna players stop streams..? really ? I dont get you. Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 09:31 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
What kind of fucking "press release" was that? What amateurs.... That was absolutely ridiculous just give the guy back his 2000 and piss off...
The actual "press release" as they call it states nothing it gives 2 interviews and... one paragraph? Ministry of Win is quickly turning into the Ministry of Shit And you must be blind to miss that...or what ? http://esfiworld.com/news/ministry-win-respond-fuzers-claims OPEN YOUR EYES MAN
Just out of curiosity, are you in any way affliciated with MoW?
I for my part don't like the press release, the press release is not related to the article on esfiworld and thus should be read independent from the article.
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On September 13 2012 09:35 LgNkarmy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 09:34 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On September 13 2012 09:32 LgNkarmy wrote:On September 13 2012 09:29 MountainDewJunkie wrote:On September 13 2012 09:24 LgNkarmy wrote:On September 13 2012 09:21 Jarree wrote:On September 13 2012 09:03 LgNkarmy wrote:
As for them owing Fuzer money, It does state that we are to pay for the entire month even if we leave half way through. What if I have a contract in my desk stating you must pay me 100$ every month? Yes it states that. You didn't sign it? Too bad. Now the money please.  As I have said, Mistakes were made. Fuzer shouldn't have even though about moving without a contract first while paying so much a month, At the same time MoW already stated they will never allow a player to move in without the contract signed. Why can't we just agree that mistakes were made but it's nothing to blow up about... Well that's a dismissive attitude, and with this story being less than a day old, it seems too soon to try to bury it and "put these things behind us and get on with our lives."  (Pretend like they didn't happen as well). Fear not, unless other players chime in, I see no long term damage to MoW. Fuzer aired his grievances and I think that's fine. MoW has responded, so whatever will be, will be. The future's not ours to see. ... I agree, Just from my point of view. I lived in the house, I was able to read the contract and NDA indepth, I know what was expected from us. All other players agreed to this. I'm not saying blow it under the rug, When it's brought up it's good to get both sides of the story, But everyone has both sides, Mistakes were admitted too. Everyone is pitch forking MoW for something they admitted was a mistake and won't happen in the future. Most people are upset that he is losing 2000 (from a 2600 investment) for a 6 day stay all because they wouldn't let the lawyer read over the fine print... It's one thing to have a contract and have someone disagree but to get a contract written in a foreign language that the participant doesn't understand fully and negate any legal aid is ridiculous. MoW Offered to give him his money back and they go their seperate ways. He declined because he wanted to "shit on MoW" to the community.
We can shrug this guy off as biased now..
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On September 13 2012 09:35 LgNkarmy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 09:34 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On September 13 2012 09:32 LgNkarmy wrote:On September 13 2012 09:29 MountainDewJunkie wrote:On September 13 2012 09:24 LgNkarmy wrote:On September 13 2012 09:21 Jarree wrote:On September 13 2012 09:03 LgNkarmy wrote:
As for them owing Fuzer money, It does state that we are to pay for the entire month even if we leave half way through. What if I have a contract in my desk stating you must pay me 100$ every month? Yes it states that. You didn't sign it? Too bad. Now the money please. As I have said, Mistakes were made. Fuzer shouldn't have even though about moving without a contract first while paying so much a month, At the same time MoW already stated they will never allow a player to move in without the contract signed. Why can't we just agree that mistakes were made but it's nothing to blow up about... Well that's a dismissive attitude, and with this story being less than a day old, it seems too soon to try to bury it and "put these things behind us and get on with our lives." (Pretend like they didn't happen as well). Fear not, unless other players chime in, I see no long term damage to MoW. Fuzer aired his grievances and I think that's fine. MoW has responded, so whatever will be, will be. The future's not ours to see. ... I agree, Just from my point of view. I lived in the house, I was able to read the contract and NDA indepth, I know what was expected from us. All other players agreed to this. I'm not saying blow it under the rug, When it's brought up it's good to get both sides of the story, But everyone has both sides, Mistakes were admitted too. Everyone is pitch forking MoW for something they admitted was a mistake and won't happen in the future. Most people are upset that he is losing 2000 (from a 2600 investment) for a 6 day stay all because they wouldn't let the lawyer read over the fine print... It's one thing to have a contract and have someone disagree but to get a contract written in a foreign language that the participant doesn't understand fully and negate any legal aid is ridiculous. MoW Offered to give him his money back and they go their seperate ways. He declined because he wanted to "shit on MoW" to the community.
Pretty impressive if you ask me. Most people would take the cash and hang their heads and the slink back home. There's nothing wrong with someone standing up and saying, "This particular entity done pissed me off."
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On September 13 2012 09:35 scares wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 09:32 LgNkarmy wrote:On September 13 2012 09:29 MountainDewJunkie wrote:On September 13 2012 09:24 LgNkarmy wrote:On September 13 2012 09:21 Jarree wrote:On September 13 2012 09:03 LgNkarmy wrote:
As for them owing Fuzer money, It does state that we are to pay for the entire month even if we leave half way through. What if I have a contract in my desk stating you must pay me 100$ every month? Yes it states that. You didn't sign it? Too bad. Now the money please. As I have said, Mistakes were made. Fuzer shouldn't have even though about moving without a contract first while paying so much a month, At the same time MoW already stated they will never allow a player to move in without the contract signed. Why can't we just agree that mistakes were made but it's nothing to blow up about... Well that's a dismissive attitude, and with this story being less than a day old, it seems too soon to try to bury it and "put these things behind us and get on with our lives." (Pretend like they didn't happen as well). Fear not, unless other players chime in, I see no long term damage to MoW. Fuzer aired his grievances and I think that's fine. MoW has responded, so whatever will be, will be. The future's not ours to see. ... I agree, Just from my point of view. I lived in the house, I was able to read the contract and NDA indepth, I know what was expected from us. All other players agreed to this. I'm not saying blow it under the rug, When it's brought up it's good to get both sides of the story, But everyone has both sides, Mistakes were admitted too. Everyone is pitch forking MoW for something they admitted was a mistake and won't happen in the future. The very final problem i see is: Why did you have to step in and bring this to light? Why couldn't the Ministry of Win account use your words, instead of having to call Fuzer childish? (not saying they are wrong but you know, not the best way to handle it maybe?)
I don't know, I'm not MoW lol. I'm just saying this from an outside point of view, Looking at both sides. I'm unbiased just trying to give people facts from living in the house at the time. Everyone is throwing around rumours that aren't true.
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On September 13 2012 09:32 pallad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 09:23 ragz_gt wrote:On September 13 2012 09:17 pallad wrote:On September 13 2012 08:57 btx0 wrote:
This is ridiculous. 150h / month streaming, 10 year non compete, pressuring people into signing a contract without legal council, paying back money only after bad publicity and a very weak press release not addressing the issue at all.
Unless these things get cleared up I'd be surprised to see anyone joining MoW. LOL when you live in gaming house and you play only one game , why you DONT stream ? Its good for player fans to see them stream.. , people that are biching around that players stream to much lol.. its good for players also , they can make more fans by streams. 10 year non compete ? you dont even read this OP good. You can compete where you wanna. You just cant make your own gaming house and take ideas from MoW house , this is in document. On September 13 2012 09:17 Ikuu wrote:
MoW sounds shady as fuck. 10 year non-compete, forcing people to stream a certain number of hours and then taking a cut, and for some reason they need to sign an NDA. another one.. read up. Because Stream is NOT good for training. Polt suffered greatly when he non stop streamed, same with ForGG. And all the top streamer on TL is not getting any better. Going by your logic...let pro gamers DONT STREAM , then what with us fans..? how to support players ? how to cheer for them.. ? Players wanna stream because of fans , and they make money from streaming. They have closed pratcice sesions in MoW house first 5 h of day , when they play custom games.. and there is time for stream for fans.. money.. and ladder. I ask once agine ... you wanna players stop streams..? really ? I dont get you.
No? He's saying that streaming is not good practise. Sure streaming for the fans is all well and good, nothing wrong with that, but it has to be balanced out with proper practise. Streaming 150 hours a month far too excessive to be considered good in a practise environment.
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OMG stop this stupid drama.
Fuzer is a troll, any1 who watched his stream must be aware of. this. He wanted a war and he made one.
MoW Boss was stupid enough to start any discussions with an kid. They never should let kid live in MoW without a signed contract.
Statements by Destiny and LgNkarmy are more important for me then Fuzer.
Discussion about streaming, food, price etc. is not critical...
If you dont like terms you dont have to sign, or you can negotiate (Karmy statement), this is not the main topic! Stop whining!
On September 13 2012 09:29 Leijona wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 09:26 Monochromatic wrote:
To all this defending Fuzer about not signing the contract: It was MoW making a bad decision since they assumed that he would sign the contract. He paid for another month, they were just waiting for him. MoW wanted to defend their ideas, so they wanted to make sure the lawer was Legit, fuzer failed to provide that infomation. Did you read the OP? They didnt give him time to receive the lawyers info. They gave him a deadline the same day that they asked for it.
Do you read? Are you a troll or what?
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On September 13 2012 09:17 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 09:15 LgNkarmy wrote:On September 13 2012 09:13 Leijona wrote:On September 13 2012 09:11 LgNkarmy wrote:On September 13 2012 09:10 Leijona wrote:On September 13 2012 09:03 LgNkarmy wrote:
Okay guys I want to clear a few things. As some of you know I also lived in Ministry of Win. I was one of the first players to move into the house, roughly a week after they opened their doors to the public. I want to just add my opinion and my experience. While living in the MoW house there were obvious errors due to inexperience, It happens. The house is still new, the whole concept of the house is new, They're doing everything on their own. They don't have another pro house to get tips from, They have to trial and error everything themselves. Mistakes are going to happen.
With that said, The contract was a bit confusing at first but they gave everyone in the house a full day to sit down together and point out what we didn't like and what we wanted to change. They were very receptive to our changes. Everything we weren't comfortable with they changed, and if we didn't understand something they clarified it. I had no problems with the contract after we all re-worked it. Players saying the NDA are keeping them from not saying anything isn't true. The NDA never said anything about not talking badly about MoW or talking about what happened within the house. They just want to make sure that we don't tell out company secrets to competitors since they were the first of this type of gaming house, It was just to cover themselves. It was all understood, It was to keep company secrets since everyone living in the house had exposure to how the entire house ran.
The food was an issue, At the time I was living there I thought we were eating quiet healthy, but at the same time it was only 9 people total to cook for. You have to realise that cooking for 12+ players and staff, It's hard to prepare fish and salads for every meal, and it's nearly impossible to have "perfect amount" of food. If they cook to much then they lose money from throwing it out, If they don't cook enough players complain. It's a really rough balance. Even when the meals weren't that big, We had access to pieces of bread with various spreads, bowls of cereal at any time of the day, and other left overs if there are any. Once again the project and house is still new so give them time to work out the kinks.
As for them owing Fuzer money, It does state that we are to pay for the entire month even if we leave half way through. They have to plan and buy/prepare for an entire month so to get a refund after they already spent the money planning on you living in the house, isn't really fair to ask for. It sucks Fuzer couldn't get a refund, especially since he didn't sign the contract yet, but at the same time MoW is a business and they have to plan around having the proper income to sustain the house. This was poorly handled all over, Mistakes were clearly made. Once again the project is new, I doubt they'll ever allow a player to move in before signing a contract.
Overall my time in MoW was fantastic. We had a very well set schedule as far as eating/practising. We would eat the same time every day, and practice the same time every day. Matiz was a amazing coach, He was very helpful to help find us new builds and then finding us players to practice it with. The practice was regulated, It was up to the players to make sure it was efficient. He was there for assistance, He asked on a daily basis if anyone wanted help, And he would go out of his way to make sure we were taken care of. Same with the work out schedule, Me snute and Cyto were the only players who used the gym while we lived there, We didn't need a work out schedule. If you want to work out do it, If not practice. They can't hold your hand for everything. Even in a korean team house, The coach does what he can to guide you and make sure you're on track with practice, but if you're not playing efficiently then it's your own fault.
So please lower your pitch forks. Once again the project is still new, Mistakes will be made and mistakes have been made. Was my entire experience perfect? No I had a few times of drama, but it was cleared up. Just try to see it from both sides, and remember this is still a business.
Thanks
~~LgNkarmy What about the part where Fuzer wasnt allowed to show the contract to his lawyer? He was aloud, It was stated they agreed to that but they wanted to see the lawyers license. They never got that and needed it to be signed. Like I said it should have been done before he moved it, but mistakes were made. And then they forced him out not giving Fuzer time to get those papers? And why the fuck would they even require something like that. Because it's a contract and NDA that they would like to keep confidential from eyes that don't have to see it. A lawyer has to keep it confidential. That should be in the OP as well so that topic stops coming up. =P
You know, I am trying very very hard to keep my temper, but it has become increasingly obvious that you two are Pro-GAMERS not lawyers... Please stop spreading nonsense.... If you have doubts wether someone is truly a lawyer of a hack you do not ask for his registration, you look him up in the register (nowadays available online). Anything else is a stalling tactic and nothing else.
Second of all, a NDA can be many things, but a NDA forbidding you from getting legal advice regarding a contract would be illegal by itself ("Sittenwidrig").
Honestly I have my doubts if MoW is truly as bad as Fuzer claims, but the basic situation is very clear. They (and I mean specifically THEY) should have crossed their ts and dotted the is regarding the legal situation (meaning made damn sure they had a signed contract) before Fuzer moved in. That they did not was unproffesional at best and led to this drama. The earlier skypelog claiming they did not have his money and don't owe him anything was flat out illegal.
I hope they can clean up their act and become successfull, but this mess is their own fault.
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On September 13 2012 09:19 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 09:15 Noispaxen wrote:On September 13 2012 09:07 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:On September 13 2012 09:03 Noispaxen wrote:On September 13 2012 09:01 Leijona wrote:On September 13 2012 08:55 Irave wrote:On September 13 2012 08:46 CeriseCherries wrote:On September 13 2012 08:42 nakedsurfer wrote:On September 13 2012 08:24 Welmu wrote:On September 13 2012 08:23 MinistryOfWin wrote:
We didn't wanted to start the flame war but to complete this in civilized manner. Fuzer was reprimanded more than 10 times, about cleaning his room, keeping the gaming room clean, nothing helped. We have decided that we will sign the contract as soon as possible so we can enforce the house rules on him, but he declined. He declined second time.
Streaming time - quote from the contract: 150 hours per month, unless having a series of training events or trips to StarCraft II tournaments. We are all humans, we are not forcing the players to stream 4 hours a day.
Streaming ad-revenue: Thanks to strategic partnership with Twitch, players living in the house still can earn more money from ad-revenue than they normally could, Fuzer didn't even had any partnership before that. 150 hours per month is 5 hours a day.... Welmu dropping them facts like a boss!! ♥ so they are right that it isn't 4 hours a day  idk i just feel like it takes two to make a mess I applaud Welmu's ability to do math. Though if the agreement was for 5 hours a day minimum it would say that. However you have the obligation to stream for 150 hours a month. I don't imagine its much of a stretch to think of the players playing the game for 8 hours a day. So if you turn the stream on during that time, you finish with over 11 days in the month, to do whatever. They partnered with twitch, so even previously non featured streamers would become featured. Which would enable them to profit off of commercials, while giving a % to MoW. Lol, just stop with the ridiculous 8hours a day streaming thing. Thats funny Did you even read what he wrote? Do you know how annoying it must be to stream for 8 hours straight? I mean, we're not just talking about taking a short break. You're not making any revenue when you take a break from streaming, so streaming 8 hours straight is basically just taking short breaks to eat maybe a small bag of pretzels or something, going to the bathroom, getting a glass of water. 5 hours a day is a bit unreasonable for streaming, especially when you consider the fact that most people don't want to stream every single day. Even if you only take 2 days off, you're still going to have to make up 10 hours over 5 days (7 hours a day!). TLO, the #1 streamer in terms of hours, only had 142.5 hours. It's a ridiculous thing for MoW to want their players to do, and if they're charging that much for them to go there in the first place, they should have just included that amount (or some of it) in the contract instead of forcing them to stream that much. You don't get it, do you? If they stream 8hours of day, it means they have 11days a month to not stream at all! And frankly, when all you do is playing Starcraft all day long, its not troublesome at all. I have streamed myself around 8hours in 1day a few times and it wasn't annoying at all, despite doing it with 20-40viewers avg. I'm sure if I actually had a reasonable number of viewers (like ~100 and more) I would love to do that. And try to understand the fact, that people like Fuzer would never get any money at all from Twitch, cause they would never get a partnership without MoW, so in fact he still was getting more money than the $0 he would normally get. Lol, the whole point is to get better. 1.) People do not get better when they stream their practice. Numerous pro players have said that streaming their practice games hinders their play and does not help them in any way. 2.) 8 hours straight 3 or 4 days in a row? Do you realize how tiring that is? You can stream that maybe one or two times a week, but doing that every week? Even the highest amount of streamers have to take breaks and can't do that. TLO had 142.5 hours, a ridiculous amount and had to take long breaks during his streaming. 3.) If they really want money from their streaming, fine whatever. Why not just include that cost in the contract and allow them to take whatever money they make from streaming? It's not really fair to tell them after the fact that they have to stream 5 hours a day (at least) and then tell them they don't even get to keep all of the money. If you're not even getting adequate amounts of food, why should you be giving them ADDITIONAL money to WORK?
You clearly have no idea what you are writing about.
1.) Yes, I can agree with you about this point, it's probably not good to stream your practice, strategies etc. for the competitive reasons, however, that pretty much applies for the real top pros, inventing new strategies etc.
2.) It's not tiring at all... Streaming doesn't equal having a webcam and microphone on and talking 24/7 while playing. All you have to do is having x-split on in the background while you play, if you don't feel like it you don't have to talk, you don't even need to check the chat. Also, they know about it before coming, they aren't getting told after the fact that they don't keep all the money. Please, don't even mention the food because it's just silly point. Fuzer saying they get only 1hot meal a day is just hard to consider serious. Yes, believe it or not, but in Poland we have breakfast, which is usually sandwiches/fruits/cereals, dinner which is the biggest meal of the day and is hot, and then supper which is usually sandwiches again (altough of course you can have some hot stuff like sausages, eggs and what not).
3.) Please, realise that if not for MoW, Fuzer would get literally ZERO money whatsoever from streaming! Check the requirements Twitch.tv actually has before they can give you partnership and share the ad revenue with you. The truth is Fuzer would pretty much never get it and he should be glad that MoW with their partnership actually gives him the opportunity to get some money from it.
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On September 13 2012 09:14 Solarsail wrote:Show nested quote +
As for them owing Fuzer money, It does state that we are to pay for the entire month even if we leave half way through.
But he didn't SIGN that contract.
And this is the crux of the situation. MoW shouldn't have ever let any player in their house without the contract being signed, but I guessing they've learned this lesson.
As far as if the contract is void or not, that varies by state and also by country. Given that Fuzer is Finnish and MoW is Polish, I suspect the legal proceeding will get very complicated.
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Norway839 Posts
It's funny. I remember my only words to Fuzer during my stay at the whole Battle at Ministry of Win tournament were these:
"You need to take this seriously, you know." after 3-1. Somewhere inside I was cheering for him.
Now this.
Let's just say there's a reason some people get caught up into trouble and some people don't.
Chill is a wise man, he said it like this:
"Guess what? If you don't like it, then don't live there. This is a privately-run house."
The thing is... You can complain a lot. The house is not perfect and now this. But you cannot take away the fact that they had the balls to try set up a gaming house in Europe, and they are still going at it, gathering some of Europe's finest players. I love that place. Not necessarily because it's a good house with all its fancy features, but because it's a place where people gather with the same dreams, hopes and goals - to improve. And not many people in Europe have the balls to do such a thing. The people make the place unique. People that leave everything behind for one simple purpose - self-improvement. Do you even know what it's like? This is currently the ONLY place in Europe that allows SC2-players to gather like this.
People were talking shit about how an European house would not help any of the players even before I got there! How it wouldn't make a difference. I can tell you, it did make a difference for me. At the very least I'm glad I didn't have to share house with skeptic people like those not even giving an European pro-house a chance to begin with. Those of you who don't believe in a combined fighting spirit are the ones who are contributing to us getting our asses kicked every time we meet a Korean. They are a bit closer to each other than we are, you know? They don't rest on their laurels after a loss. They are not the ones who say "Give up, it's impossible. Why even try."
Not taking sides here, but to be constructive regarding the gaming house situation in Europe ... Maybe some of you guys should put together a gaming house and show how us all how it's done? We are all united through the Internet after all. Let us create something beautiful. Set up your own house, I'll be happy to visit you. Or maybe you can apply for a job at a gaming house? Do something.
I lived in the Ministry of Win for months. I am that quiet kid in the back of the class, the 'good guy above all this shit'. What I have to say? I paid for the months, got what I wanted, told the managers whenever something was wrong, told them whatever was unacceptable, helped improve shit. If I needed something, I told them and they would fix it, although being short on manpower they fixed it as fast as they could. If I was to go back there now, I'd have zero troubles. Their setup is really good now. The Battle tournament was amazing. The current players are awesome. I would tell them if I was not happy with food. I would tell them to fix their stuff if something was wrong.
If there was any issue I'd just tell them straight up.
They never bitched about me not streaming as much. In the beginning there were some net issues that are fixed now. I was travelling a lot too. They were understanding. I'm sure if someone were smurfing/preparing for something truly important they would be understanding of that too. This is something you as a player can ASK about before you go there, if you so desire. If you don't like the response then negotiate more or don't go.
I went into this house with high ideals. Ideals I still hold. And I got what I came for. Good months of hard practice. Even though I'm still shit compared to the powerhouses you look up to, the people I look up to - stepha, nerchio, scarlett, etc - I've improved. I improved lots, made friends and experienced a new country, new impressions. I got what I wanted and I'm happy with the time I spent. I had the balls to go there and have no regrets.
If you don't want bad things to happen in your life then stop getting yourself into crappy situations, it's that simple. Why do you allow yourself to get into such spots in the first place? Check stuff out BEFORE you get on those planes and come prepared. Cooperate and don't be lazy when issues arise. If it takes less than five minutes to do just )$(!)#( do it !!
I'm not taking sides. I'm just here to be constructive, get some of my own experience out there while I work on my badass rocket ride to Korea.
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Since I just got back and took time to look up actual statistics and my edit is now pages back, I'm going to repost this...
On September 13 2012 05:54 wklbishop wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:40 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2012 05:27 wklbishop wrote:On September 13 2012 05:24 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2012 05:20 wklbishop wrote:On September 13 2012 05:12 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2012 03:52 seanisgrand wrote:
12 players. 7200 euro/mo for rent PLUS a cut of a minimum of 60 hours of their streaming profits DAILY.
Better be feeding them hella good...
oh wait You're from the U.S. That rent, by U.S. standards, would be atrociously insufficient. Of course, it may be in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, I don't know, but considering the services provided, I would say they could not come even close to covering their costs with 7200 euros per month. It's simply not realistic. Also, streaming revenue is highly dependent on the player. If you're one of the people with 120 viewers, your streaming revenue is negligible anyways. MoW is meant to be a business. While I think the 10-year thing is ridiculous if true concerning joining another team, it is completely reasonable in terms of opening a house of their own (assuming it's for-profit). I would assume streaming revenue couldn't be taken on their "days off" like weekends or whatever as well. The fact food is even supplied at 600 Euros a month, with gas/water, Internet/utilities, and the actual amount of equipment and services provided, is once again, in my eyes, a fucking steal. I'd bet if they disclosed their financial statements you'd find they'd be operating on a very marginal profit margin. I'd be surprised if they've been able to even recoup their initial total investment, which is most likely leveraged in the first place and thus they'll also have to pay interest. People that think the costs to the players are ridiculous are people that have absolutely no concept of finances. Where the hell do you live? Hi, I'm from NYC and have also lived in Buffalo. Rent with utilities and living expenses are $900 and $500 respectively if you cook. You must be wealthy or... idk. The numbers you're giving out sounds ridiculous really. SOme of the numbers you give make sense, but if you really search around then it's more than possible. Anyways, if what you say is true for yourself then come here to Buffalo or NYC (which is apparently buttfuck nowhere). haha. I'm confused. So you calculated them to be around $1,400, and that's most likely for an area without all the amenities that the MoW provides. Also, it many places come unfurnished. MoW comes furnished with a ridiculous amount of assets. So you're comparing $1,400 at a place you're talking about (and that's WITHOUT the food being prepared for you, mind you) to a measely 600 Euros per month? What are you even talking about? Dude... I currently am living in Buffalo for $500. LOLs. $300 for rent (furnished too) and $50 for utilities and $150 for food/living expenses (I cook). I live in Chinatown in Manhattan. I pay rent for about $700 and the food there is cheap actually. Clear? Sorry if I confused you. But I really have no idea where you got your numbers from. If that's your life then come to Buffalo or something. $300 for rent in a furnished place would be very low for a city, but I have no idea what type of city Buffalo is, or if you're located in a decently crime free area. You're telling me that $50 will cover your Internet, cable, water, electric + gas bill, garbage fee? If so, then yes, I have highly underestimated these costs. Your $150 assessment is entirely irrelevant because they are providing a food service, and because they chose to do so, must be included in the cost assessment. Whether or not the people staying in the MoW utilize it is irrelevant if the service is provided. I have personally lived in a wide variety of situations, from spending $375 per month to split a room with 2 other people, to living in a makeshift room sectioned of by bookshelves with another person for $250 a month where my bed didn't even fit in the room completely and had to tucked under the other bed, to $540 a month for my own room in a much less populated area, to now spending $922 per month for a master bedroom of my own. Of course, I am aware that $922 is far more than most people spend, that was more so to just respond to your question of "where do you live." Well, to be fair, it's not just Buffalo (admittedly certain parts are crime-ridden, though not where I live), it's also Amherst (safest town in NY), Orchard Park, and the Niagara region in general if you look for a 4 bedroom apartment and split it with people. (SPECIFICALLY at least 4 bedroom). Which most single people here do. And besides, even if I'm wrong about the $150 assessment, listen to the Europeans telling you you're wrong at least... I don't know what else to say. And I guess you feel obligated to say you've had a wide range of living arrangements as well. So I'll say this, I've done all of that (minus the bed because you should just have bought a sleeping bag) for cheaper plus a few days of sleeping in a campus library.
Despite me once again in my original post talking about cost of living in the U.S., cost of living in Europe (overall, not Poland) is still higher than the U.S.
NYC is also has the highest cost of living in the entire United States, so if you were truly living off $900, it was probably in a living situation not even remotely comparable to the one described, or you were living in a sketchy ass area.
Average rent in Manhattan is over $3,000 per month. Average rent in NYC is $1,100. People always use their personal anecdotes instead of averages. Like the guy who said "oh I live in a big city in Sweden and rent is like 350 Euros." Well according to http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Sweden it's 638 Euros in a city and 437 if you don't live in the city. Almost twice the price he stated. Using the same website, it states the average cost of rent in Poland is 342 Euros per month. Assuming you eat a minimum of 100 Euros per month in food, they have an average of 83 Euros per month in utilities, and 14 euros per month in Internet, we're at 539 Euros per month! And wait, there's gym equipment? Housecleaning services? Top quality computers capable of streaming?
Their terms don't sound remotely outrageous at all.
For the last time, I'm very surprised to find Poland's wages are like less than ~20% of Denmarks wages according to someone else in this thread (stated it was just about 12,000 Euros per year), so yes, I did underestimate that, but considering the costs itself still aren't exorbitant as a shit ton of people in this thread have stated for a more average place, I don't understand the backlash against the MoW.
However, their official statement I just read was utterly retarded and didn't address anything. I'm confused.
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The whole situation could've been handled better from both sides. What I do not get though, is the crowd grabbing the pitchforks so eagerly and quickly. It's not like new business is going to be run flawlessly and I personally, after reading this whole batch of hate and witch-hunting, still believe that MoW has a lot to offer to the eSports and to the players & to the community.
Blaming only MoW for this whole mess is biased; as frankly, who goes to another country, pays us a big sum of money and is not interested in the details, such as what the requirements would be, what the contract would be like?
PS: Normally, the contract & details are sent to you prior moving in or even paying up. So claims that this is a normal way of doing things by MoW management are false; I'm thinking that the whole thing with Fuzer was an individual incident, for which I hope MoW will not repeat.
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Heh i bet korean progaming houses can be way worse
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1. we don't know what esports will be like in 10 years but hopefully for the best.
2. no food is ridiculous. can't focus on game when half the time your mind is focused on food.
3. again, 10 years? no offence but you are not a house that shelters the top pro gamers. i don't thnk even established teams like LG-IM or KT Rolster have these clauses stated in their contracts. 1 year is fine and that's perfectly acceptable and legal in business environments, 2 to 3 years is pushing it but 10 years? to phrase this the nicest way possible: get your head out of your ass "boss".
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EPT
