I am kind of disappointed NASL didn't give Scarlett a seed for season 4. She is basically 'THE' current North American champion (WCS Canada & North America) and is an up and coming developing talent. What could be better for a North American league than a player like this? I really like it the current format and allowing everyone around the world participate and the qualifiers are great, but when you give a Korean seed over something like this I think it is really missing out.
On August 30 2012 11:59 digmouse wrote: Why are they still using invites?
The real question is "Why are they NOT using invites?".
NASL has been a downright disappointment in terms of regular season attendance and production value. The only thing most people are excited about the NASL is (rightfully so) the Finals.
The major reason I believe they have such low viewing ratings it's because there are not enough top-notch players. We're already almost 3 years into Starcraft 2, thus people wanna watch the best facing the best. And lets be honest, you will not stay up late to watch a match like HwangSin vs. Targa. No disrespect to the players at all, it's just a fact they are not the kind of players that would make you stay up.
This being said, I completely agree with what NASL is doing. As a matter of fact, I think they should include more invites, gathering more of the top players in the world, thus increasing the amount of trully interesting games.
2 seasons ago called, they want their complaints back. NASL last season was great all season, had a very high view count for it being almost nightly. Not sure what you've been watching.
I'm sorry, but averaging less than 3k viewers during the regular season is pretty darn mediocre. There are certain players that get way more viewers on their personal stream than "one of the top StarCraft II leagues in NA". Also, your post does not counter mine in anyway shape or form. My argument is that the NASL, in order to actually capture a substantial amount of viewers, at least in comparison to other competitions like IPL or EGMC (i'm obviously not taking the Finals event into account here), you NEED to have a high percentage of top players. Besides Stephano, MC, Hero, Alicia and very few others, there were NOT a lot of top-tier talents in NASL since Season 1, right before most korean teams have withdrawn from participating. I might be wrong, but at the moment, there are not many people who turn on their PCs to watch NASL. It's more like a "Let me check what streams are on... Oh, there's NASL, that's pretty cool..."
This move is a step in the right direction. DRG, MMA, Taeja and Violet are amount the top-tier talents in SC2. This is exactly what people want to see. I even think they should go even further with the invites. Try an get players like MVP, NesTea, MarineKing, Leenock, Seed, etc.
We totally agree. At the very least, 10k~ views on a nightly basis would be considered the borderline of doing moderately alright. We hope provide that nightly competition is a MUST watch similar to how every GSL night there seems to be just that one match everyone is waiting for. There is still a healthy mix of foreigners and we recognize how important it is to keep them in. However, the fact that players who perform well across many tournaments means that the invites are always players who have a ton of exposure and respect. The faceless A-team Koreans won't ever qualify unless they get out to the major tournaments or win every primarily cup like TSL. Even then, that's some decent hype and exposure
On August 31 2012 03:29 Elem wrote: Cool. I think you need to admit you kinda bullshitted in MMA though. He's done fuck all this year.
Read Bitter's post. MMA has placed high in several tournaments this season and won two events. No one will argue that he hasn't shown dominating results recently, but even MVP went through a "slump" period as well when he was going through surgery recovery (and still is).
On August 31 2012 03:41 NuttyFudgesicle wrote: I am kind of disappointed NASL didn't give Scarlett a seed for season 4. She is basically 'THE' current North American champion (WCS Canada & North America) and is an up and coming developing talent. What could be better for a North American league than a player like this? I really like it the current format and allowing everyone around the world participate and the qualifiers are great, but when you give a Korean seed over something like this I think it is really missing out.
I LOVE Scarlett's play (and Gretorp loves it x1000 more). The problem is that we want to remove any kind of act that could be seen as "well they just like player x and show them favoritism." Giving out spots to Koreans may seem like we're just trying to inflate the numbers, but if Deezer or Troll31523 was rightfully #3 in the rankings, we would invite him despite anyone's personal feelings on the guy.
The system tries to remove as much bias as possible and I think it's pretty damn comprehensive (no bias in that statement )
On August 31 2012 03:41 NuttyFudgesicle wrote: I am kind of disappointed NASL didn't give Scarlett a seed for season 4. She is basically 'THE' current North American champion (WCS Canada & North America) and is an up and coming developing talent. What could be better for a North American league than a player like this? I really like it the current format and allowing everyone around the world participate and the qualifiers are great, but when you give a Korean seed over something like this I think it is really missing out.
I LOVE Scarlett's play (and Gretorp loves it x1000 more). The problem is that we want to remove any kind of act that could be seen as "well they just like player x and show them favoritism." Giving out spots to Koreans may seem like we're just trying to inflate the numbers, but if Deezer or Troll31523 was rightfully #3 in the rankings, we would invite him despite anyone's personal feelings on the guy.
The system tries to remove as much bias as possible and I think it's pretty damn comprehensive (no bias in that statement )
That makes sense and I know why you are doing it. The players who were seeded all deserve a ton of respect for their accomplishments this year. I guess I just felt a little disappointed that I won't have the opportunity to see a recent rising North American talent play against more of the established players (same foreigner vs korean concept).. Unless she wins the last qualifier that is. Overall I think you guys are doing a great job.
On August 31 2012 03:29 Elem wrote: Cool. I think you need to admit you kinda bullshitted in MMA though. He's done fuck all this year.
Won Iron Squid, Won IEM Kiev, 3/4 IEM Cebit, 3/4 IPL 4, 5/8 GSL S1, Top 32 GSL S2, Top 32 Spring Arena #2
On August 31 2012 03:41 NuttyFudgesicle wrote: I am kind of disappointed NASL didn't give Scarlett a seed for season 4. She is basically 'THE' current North American champion (WCS Canada & North America) and is an up and coming developing talent. What could be better for a North American league than a player like this? I really like it the current format and allowing everyone around the world participate and the qualifiers are great, but when you give a Korean seed over something like this I think it is really missing out.
Our goal was not to hand out seeds to players we want in our tournament. Our goal was to develop another method of qualification for the NASL that guarantees us four of the best players on the planet.
Think of this as another method of qualifying. You can count on the top 4 players on this list to receive invites at the beginning of season 5 too.
i just hope it doesn't turn into another korean dominated league. i know nasl got a lot of flack in season 2 when all those koreans left. but i think it was a good thing. a mostly foreigner league with a sprinkle of *beatable* koreans turned out pretty good for them these past few seasons. the good news is, those invites (with the exception of taeja) are beatable by top foreigners. lets hope stephano can repeat and kick another model in the face. GG
On August 31 2012 03:41 NuttyFudgesicle wrote: I am kind of disappointed NASL didn't give Scarlett a seed for season 4. She is basically 'THE' current North American champion (WCS Canada & North America) and is an up and coming developing talent. What could be better for a North American league than a player like this? I really like it the current format and allowing everyone around the world participate and the qualifiers are great, but when you give a Korean seed over something like this I think it is really missing out.
Our goal was not to hand out seeds to players we want in our tournament. Our goal was to develop another method of qualification for the NASL that guarantees us four of the best players on the planet.
Think of this as another method of qualifying. You can count on the top 4 players on this list to receive invites at the beginning of season 5 too.
I agree. This is a good "hard numbers" approach, and it's clear that an unbiased method was used. The 4 highst-ranked players got invites, and this is both fair and represents the current good players in the foreign scene. They happen to be korean, yes, but the point is that NASL is supplementing its largely open system with a small number of merit-based invites.
I can only see this being good. Also, what a great four invites. This will definitely make things more exciting.
On August 30 2012 11:59 digmouse wrote: Why are they still using invites?
The real question is "Why are they NOT using invites?".
NASL has been a downright disappointment in terms of regular season attendance and production value. The only thing most people are excited about the NASL is (rightfully so) the Finals.
The major reason I believe they have such low viewing ratings it's because there are not enough top-notch players. We're already almost 3 years into Starcraft 2, thus people wanna watch the best facing the best. And lets be honest, you will not stay up late to watch a match like HwangSin vs. Targa. No disrespect to the players at all, it's just a fact they are not the kind of players that would make you stay up.
This being said, I completely agree with what NASL is doing. As a matter of fact, I think they should include more invites, gathering more of the top players in the world, thus increasing the amount of trully interesting games.
2 seasons ago called, they want their complaints back. NASL last season was great all season, had a very high view count for it being almost nightly. Not sure what you've been watching.
I'm sorry, but averaging less than 3k viewers during the regular season is pretty darn mediocre. There are certain players that get way more viewers on their personal stream than "one of the top StarCraft II leagues in NA". Also, your post does not counter mine in anyway shape or form. My argument is that the NASL, in order to actually capture a substantial amount of viewers, at least in comparison to other competitions like IPL or EGMC (i'm obviously not taking the Finals event into account here), you NEED to have a high percentage of top players. Besides Stephano, MC, Hero, Alicia and very few others, there were NOT a lot of top-tier talents in NASL since Season 1, right before most korean teams have withdrawn from participating. I might be wrong, but at the moment, there are not many people who turn on their PCs to watch NASL. It's more like a "Let me check what streams are on... Oh, there's NASL, that's pretty cool..."
This move is a step in the right direction. DRG, MMA, Taeja and Violet are amount the top-tier talents in SC2. This is exactly what people want to see. I even think they should go even further with the invites. Try an get players like MVP, NesTea, MarineKing, Leenock, Seed, etc.
We totally agree. At the very least, 10k~ views on a nightly basis would be considered the borderline of doing moderately alright. We hope provide that nightly competition is a MUST watch similar to how every GSL night there seems to be just that one match everyone is waiting for. There is still a healthy mix of foreigners and we recognize how important it is to keep them in. However, the fact that players who perform well across many tournaments means that the invites are always players who have a ton of exposure and respect. The faceless A-team Koreans won't ever qualify unless they get out to the major tournaments or win every primarily cup like TSL. Even then, that's some decent hype and exposure
On August 31 2012 03:29 Elem wrote: Cool. I think you need to admit you kinda bullshitted in MMA though. He's done fuck all this year.
Read Bitter's post. MMA has placed high in several tournaments this season and won two events. No one will argue that he hasn't shown dominating results recently, but even MVP went through a "slump" period as well when he was going through surgery recovery (and still is).
On August 31 2012 03:41 NuttyFudgesicle wrote: I am kind of disappointed NASL didn't give Scarlett a seed for season 4. She is basically 'THE' current North American champion (WCS Canada & North America) and is an up and coming developing talent. What could be better for a North American league than a player like this? I really like it the current format and allowing everyone around the world participate and the qualifiers are great, but when you give a Korean seed over something like this I think it is really missing out.
I LOVE Scarlett's play (and Gretorp loves it x1000 more). The problem is that we want to remove any kind of act that could be seen as "well they just like player x and show them favoritism." Giving out spots to Koreans may seem like we're just trying to inflate the numbers, but if Deezer or Troll31523 was rightfully #3 in the rankings, we would invite him despite anyone's personal feelings on the guy.
The system tries to remove as much bias as possible and I think it's pretty damn comprehensive (no bias in that statement )
I think it's your format. Seven to eight weeks of round-robin groups where placing highly doesn't really affect your chances of actually winning NASL. Plus the week of preparation players are given before each matchup in the Regular Season is a complete contradiction of your Finals format where you just crap out game after game in a three day timeframe.
Here's an idea, separate the NASL into divisions (Division A, B and C in order of prestige), have 16 players (separated into 2 groups of 8) per Division and play each group out. By the end, only the top 3 players per group should make it to the playoffs, with the 1st place finisher needing to win only one Bo5 series to reach the finals. Then... make the finals a huge bigged up Best of 9 showmatch between the Division A victors in the playoffs. Give each player 2 weeks to prepare and put $30,000 on the line. Suddenly.... you are gonna see shit that is GSL Finals good.
As for other divisions, make the bottom 3 spot a relegation zone and the top 3 spot a promotion zone, so if you get bottom 3 of Division C, you're out. Suddenly, NASL means a whole bloody lot more. Or if you like, make the best and the worst player in a group face instant promotion/relegation and the next two in order compete for promotion/relegation.
On August 30 2012 11:59 digmouse wrote: Why are they still using invites?
The real question is "Why are they NOT using invites?".
NASL has been a downright disappointment in terms of regular season attendance and production value. The only thing most people are excited about the NASL is (rightfully so) the Finals.
The major reason I believe they have such low viewing ratings it's because there are not enough top-notch players. We're already almost 3 years into Starcraft 2, thus people wanna watch the best facing the best. And lets be honest, you will not stay up late to watch a match like HwangSin vs. Targa. No disrespect to the players at all, it's just a fact they are not the kind of players that would make you stay up.
This being said, I completely agree with what NASL is doing. As a matter of fact, I think they should include more invites, gathering more of the top players in the world, thus increasing the amount of trully interesting games.
2 seasons ago called, they want their complaints back. NASL last season was great all season, had a very high view count for it being almost nightly. Not sure what you've been watching.
I'm sorry, but averaging less than 3k viewers during the regular season is pretty darn mediocre. There are certain players that get way more viewers on their personal stream than "one of the top StarCraft II leagues in NA". Also, your post does not counter mine in anyway shape or form. My argument is that the NASL, in order to actually capture a substantial amount of viewers, at least in comparison to other competitions like IPL or EGMC (i'm obviously not taking the Finals event into account here), you NEED to have a high percentage of top players. Besides Stephano, MC, Hero, Alicia and very few others, there were NOT a lot of top-tier talents in NASL since Season 1, right before most korean teams have withdrawn from participating. I might be wrong, but at the moment, there are not many people who turn on their PCs to watch NASL. It's more like a "Let me check what streams are on... Oh, there's NASL, that's pretty cool..."
This move is a step in the right direction. DRG, MMA, Taeja and Violet are amount the top-tier talents in SC2. This is exactly what people want to see. I even think they should go even further with the invites. Try an get players like MVP, NesTea, MarineKing, Leenock, Seed, etc.
We totally agree. At the very least, 10k~ views on a nightly basis would be considered the borderline of doing moderately alright. We hope provide that nightly competition is a MUST watch similar to how every GSL night there seems to be just that one match everyone is waiting for. There is still a healthy mix of foreigners and we recognize how important it is to keep them in. However, the fact that players who perform well across many tournaments means that the invites are always players who have a ton of exposure and respect. The faceless A-team Koreans won't ever qualify unless they get out to the major tournaments or win every primarily cup like TSL. Even then, that's some decent hype and exposure
On August 31 2012 03:29 Elem wrote: Cool. I think you need to admit you kinda bullshitted in MMA though. He's done fuck all this year.
Read Bitter's post. MMA has placed high in several tournaments this season and won two events. No one will argue that he hasn't shown dominating results recently, but even MVP went through a "slump" period as well when he was going through surgery recovery (and still is).
On August 31 2012 03:41 NuttyFudgesicle wrote: I am kind of disappointed NASL didn't give Scarlett a seed for season 4. She is basically 'THE' current North American champion (WCS Canada & North America) and is an up and coming developing talent. What could be better for a North American league than a player like this? I really like it the current format and allowing everyone around the world participate and the qualifiers are great, but when you give a Korean seed over something like this I think it is really missing out.
I LOVE Scarlett's play (and Gretorp loves it x1000 more). The problem is that we want to remove any kind of act that could be seen as "well they just like player x and show them favoritism." Giving out spots to Koreans may seem like we're just trying to inflate the numbers, but if Deezer or Troll31523 was rightfully #3 in the rankings, we would invite him despite anyone's personal feelings on the guy.
The system tries to remove as much bias as possible and I think it's pretty damn comprehensive (no bias in that statement )
I think it's your format. Seven to eight weeks of round-robin groups where placing highly doesn't really affect your chances of actually winning NASL. Plus the week of preparation players are given before each matchup in the Regular Season is a complete contradiction of your Finals format where you just crap out game after game in a three day timeframe.
Here's an idea, separate the NASL into divisions (Division A, B and C in order of prestige), have 16 players (separated into 2 groups of 8) per Division and play each group out. By the end, only the top 3 players per group should make it to the playoffs, with the 1st place finisher needing to win only one Bo5 series to reach the finals. Then... make the finals a huge bigged up Best of 9 showmatch between the Division A victors in the playoffs. Give each player 2 weeks to prepare and put $30,000 on the line. Suddenly.... you are gonna see shit that is GSL Finals good.
As for other divisions, make the bottom 3 spot a relegation zone and the top 3 spot a promotion zone, so if you get bottom 3 of Division C, you're out. Suddenly, NASL means a whole bloody lot more. Or if you like, make the best and the worst player in a group face instant promotion/relegation and the next two in order compete for promotion/relegation.
Our offline final for season 3 only included of the league's top 8 players.
That gave players three days (or was it 2? lol) to prepare and play a grand total of three matches.
While the format you describe would certainly be exciting, it's not really our vision for the league.
Perhaps a 9 week season is too long - and this is something we've considered, and may tamper with in the future - but we do not want to deny players like Lowely the awesome opportunity to put together impressive runs like the one he made in season 3.
On August 30 2012 11:59 digmouse wrote: Why are they still using invites?
The real question is "Why are they NOT using invites?".
NASL has been a downright disappointment in terms of regular season attendance and production value. The only thing most people are excited about the NASL is (rightfully so) the Finals.
The major reason I believe they have such low viewing ratings it's because there are not enough top-notch players. We're already almost 3 years into Starcraft 2, thus people wanna watch the best facing the best. And lets be honest, you will not stay up late to watch a match like HwangSin vs. Targa. No disrespect to the players at all, it's just a fact they are not the kind of players that would make you stay up.
This being said, I completely agree with what NASL is doing. As a matter of fact, I think they should include more invites, gathering more of the top players in the world, thus increasing the amount of trully interesting games.
2 seasons ago called, they want their complaints back. NASL last season was great all season, had a very high view count for it being almost nightly. Not sure what you've been watching.
I think it's also worth distinguishing Leagues like NASL, IPL, and GSL from Tournaments like Dreamhack and MLG. NASL takes place over a larger timeframe because it's not just a tournament (though it is a tournament), but because it is a league. You get longer and more interesting stories of what players do, more time to prepare and strategize between matches, and the ability to grow real stories. I'm sorry, but averaging less than 3k viewers during the regular season is pretty darn mediocre. There are certain players that get way more viewers on their personal stream than "one of the top StarCraft II leagues in NA". Also, your post does not counter mine in anyway shape or form. My argument is that the NASL, in order to actually capture a substantial amount of viewers, at least in comparison to other competitions like IPL or EGMC (i'm obviously not taking the Finals event into account here), you NEED to have a high percentage of top players. Besides Stephano, MC, Hero, Alicia and very few others, there were NOT a lot of top-tier talents in NASL since Season 1, right before most korean teams have withdrawn from participating. I might be wrong, but at the moment, there are not many people who turn on their PCs to watch NASL. It's more like a "Let me check what streams are on... Oh, there's NASL, that's pretty cool..."
This move is a step in the right direction. DRG, MMA, Taeja and Violet are amount the top-tier talents in SC2. This is exactly what people want to see. I even think they should go even further with the invites. Try an get players like MVP, NesTea, MarineKing, Leenock, Seed, etc.
We totally agree. At the very least, 10k~ views on a nightly basis would be considered the borderline of doing moderately alright. We hope provide that nightly competition is a MUST watch similar to how every GSL night there seems to be just that one match everyone is waiting for. There is still a healthy mix of foreigners and we recognize how important it is to keep them in. However, the fact that players who perform well across many tournaments means that the invites are always players who have a ton of exposure and respect. The faceless A-team Koreans won't ever qualify unless they get out to the major tournaments or win every primarily cup like TSL. Even then, that's some decent hype and exposure
On August 31 2012 03:29 Elem wrote: Cool. I think you need to admit you kinda bullshitted in MMA though. He's done fuck all this year.
Read Bitter's post. MMA has placed high in several tournaments this season and won two events. No one will argue that he hasn't shown dominating results recently, but even MVP went through a "slump" period as well when he was going through surgery recovery (and still is).
On August 31 2012 03:41 NuttyFudgesicle wrote: I am kind of disappointed NASL didn't give Scarlett a seed for season 4. She is basically 'THE' current North American champion (WCS Canada & North America) and is an up and coming developing talent. What could be better for a North American league than a player like this? I really like it the current format and allowing everyone around the world participate and the qualifiers are great, but when you give a Korean seed over something like this I think it is really missing out.
I LOVE Scarlett's play (and Gretorp loves it x1000 more). The problem is that we want to remove any kind of act that could be seen as "well they just like player x and show them favoritism." Giving out spots to Koreans may seem like we're just trying to inflate the numbers, but if Deezer or Troll31523 was rightfully #3 in the rankings, we would invite him despite anyone's personal feelings on the guy.
The system tries to remove as much bias as possible and I think it's pretty damn comprehensive (no bias in that statement )
I think it's your format. Seven to eight weeks of round-robin groups where placing highly doesn't really affect your chances of actually winning NASL. Plus the week of preparation players are given before each matchup in the Regular Season is a complete contradiction of your Finals format where you just crap out game after game in a three day timeframe.
Here's an idea, separate the NASL into divisions (Division A, B and C in order of prestige), have 16 players (separated into 2 groups of 8) per Division and play each group out. By the end, only the top 3 players per group should make it to the playoffs, with the 1st place finisher needing to win only one Bo5 series to reach the finals. Then... make the finals a huge bigged up Best of 9 showmatch between the Division A victors in the playoffs. Give each player 2 weeks to prepare and put $30,000 on the line. Suddenly.... you are gonna see shit that is GSL Finals good.
As for other divisions, make the bottom 3 spot a relegation zone and the top 3 spot a promotion zone, so if you get bottom 3 of Division C, you're out. Suddenly, NASL means a whole bloody lot more. Or if you like, make the best and the worst player in a group face instant promotion/relegation and the next two in order compete for promotion/relegation.
Our offline final for season 3 only included of the league's top 8 players.
That gave players three days (or was it 2? lol) to prepare and play a grand total of three matches.
While the format you describe would certainly be exciting, it's not really our vision for the league.
Perhaps a 9 week season is too long - and this is something we've considered, and may tamper with in the future - but we do not want to deny players like Lowely the awesome opportunity to put together impressive runs like the one he made in season 3.
I think it's also worth distinguishing Leagues like NASL, IPL, and GSL from Tournaments like Dreamhack and MLG. NASL takes place over a larger timeframe because it's not just a tournament (though it is a tournament), but because it is a league. You get longer and more interesting stories of what players do, more time to prepare and strategize between matches, and the ability to grow real stories.
On August 31 2012 05:25 Dexington wrote: Some people complain about the long format, I for one absolutely love it. NASL is the only league I will watch every single broadcast and enjoy it.
I may be the only person that thinks this, but I'd love the league to be longer and the chance to play more people. What NASL provides beautifully is play over time. Losing a couple Bo3 doesn't mean you're done.
Even dividing up the league into two leagues, having lots of interleague play and all-star weekend, like NFL or MLB is stuff we heavily discuss. It may not be viable now, but who knows what the futures holds?
EPT
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