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On August 27 2012 06:33 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 06:27 Jormundr wrote:On August 27 2012 06:22 Salazarz wrote:On August 27 2012 06:20 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 06:12 Salazarz wrote:On August 27 2012 06:05 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 05:50 Salazarz wrote:On August 27 2012 05:47 Sandermatt wrote:On August 27 2012 05:40 Salazarz wrote:
Btw, using the logic of eSF fanboys (sorry, I can't think of any other way to call it), eSF players are now being forced to go against their wishes with their boycott - after all, they have said multiple times in the past that playing in OSL and playing against KeSPA players in general is something they really look forward to doing, and want to do. But when eSF decides to boycott OSL despite players saying they want to play in it prior to these events, it's the players themselves deciding what's best for them in the long run. When the KeSPA players said they'd like to compete in GSL when possible and then KeSPA pulls out of GSL4, it's KeSPA forcing players to do shit they don't want to. Hmm!
Because Kespa represents the players employers and not the players. Kespa will ban the players if they join a tournament they do not agree. eSF has no sanction tool. And eSF have been fine in joining any other tournament than GSL. eSF is also fine with playing in OSL and Kespa playing in GSL. Something KeSPA cannot say. I'm pretty sure Coca, Byun, and Naniwa (to name a few) might disagree with you whether eSF / Gom have a 'sanction tool' or not. The thing about KeSPA 'refusing to play in GSL flat out' is bullshit. All they did was they won't play in season 4 - there is no real reason to read further into that. First of all, ESF and GOM are separate entities. Second of all, the players you listed were either "sanctioned" by their team, or by GOM. ESF had nothing to do with either. Also, stop comparing ESF to KeSPA as they are different kinds of representative bodies. One represents players, the other represents sponsors. Pretty EZ to understand. Apparently you need to read further into the consequences of 'not playing in season 4.' Yeah, just like OGN and KeSPA are separate entities. As for your second 'point', it doesn't really change anything. The point is players do what they are told by the people in charge; sure you could argue that eSF is managed by people who are closer to e-sports etcetc, but the fact remains that players do what they are told, just like under KeSPA. The different between the two organizations isn't nearly as big as you seem to believe - eSF is pretty much a baby KeSPA. I never argued OGN and KeSPA weren't separate, and I sympathize with OGN that they're the one losing in all of this. But I hold KeSPA responsible for it. ESF isn't remotely as powerful as KeSPA when it comes to how they can discipline their players. ESF doesn't hold the priorities of the sponsors above the players. ESF doesn't hold the licenses of their players which they can take away for disobeying a ban and completely pull the rug from their competitive career. ESF can't really force their players to do anything as the player could just leave and find greener grass. Theres a huge difference. What makes you think eSF doesn't hold priorities of the sponsors above the players? In fact, the most recent events at WCS prove the opposite. KeSPA can't force their players to do anything as the player could just leave and find greener grass, too - what makes you think otherwise? Wrong. As former KeSPA players they would need a progaming license to play in KeSPA events. If they leave they lose their license, and they never get to play in KeSPA events again (OS2L, this "big project", SC2 Proleague). Whereas players who leave eSF teams can still play in GSL and GSTL (Provided they move to a team that is in the GSTL or partnered with one which is). Can you stop making random shit up to try and support your stupid arguments? It's really pathetic. You say how a player leaving an eSF team can still play in GSTL if their new team is in GSTL - it's exactly the same with Proleague, what a surprise huh. And why are you saying someone leaving a KeSPA team would need a progaming license to play in OS2L. OGN made that tournament open to literally anyone. edit: of course, the fact remains that KeSPA teams at least currently are the best managed ones, give players the most secure source of income, and the best development potential... but of course, being FREE!!!! is more important. lol.
I would appreciate it if you would try one of the following:
1. Attempt to debunk my posts
2. Pretend to be civil
3. Leave
SC2 Proleague hasn't started yet. If you hadn't figured it out already I was talking about a KeSPA player leaving their KeSPA team in order to play in GSL. In your example of Proleague you are talking about someone leaving a KeSPA team to join another KeSPA team, which is entirely irrelevant to both of our arguments.
I concede the fact that if a KeSPA player left KeSPA right now and asked to play in the GSL, they would receive no sanction of any sort, and would definitely not be banned from playing in KeSPA events.
Also, would you quit making up random shit like:
"KeSPA teams at least currently are the best managed ones" - Explain how you qualify the excellence of managerial procedures and decision-making. I would argue that Startale is one of the best managed teams because they bought up a rival team, Zenex. In professional sports, being able to absorb some or all of the players from a competitor is seen as a managerial success.
"(KeSPA teams) give players the most secure source of income, and the best development potential" - Explain where you have found out that the average KeSPA player is paid better and in a more consistent manner than the average player on the teams who form the eSF (not to mention the major foreign teams and slayers). I know star players have received very luxurious salaries in the past from KeSPA, but I know little about what their other players typically earn. I am also very anxious to hear how you would qualify something as variable as development potential. Please do inform.
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On August 27 2012 07:00 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 06:48 achan1058 wrote:On August 27 2012 06:46 Salazarz wrote:
More tournaments like what, Zotac cup? It's not like a B-teamer is going to fly out to MLG or something.
You do realize that B-teamers on KeSPA teams practice with the stars, get far better coaching support, participate in OSL just like eSF guys play in GSL, and also usually get an opportunity to play in Proleague at least now and then? They also get a salary, which is more than can be said about most eSF players, and have better housing, as well as freebies from their sponsors and pretty nice vacations during offseason etc. Actually, someone in the know please fill me in on this. Is eSF teams nearly as poor as it has been described here nowadays? There's at least a few teams which have made decisions/actions that shows that they aren't broke. No not nearly as poor as some people talk about these days. Most of them picked up pretty decent sponsors and even have the cash to support LoL teams on the side. IM is obviously fine with LG, Startale just absorbed the entire Zenex lineup, MVP picked up hot6ix and added 3, yes 3 LoL teams. (15 players!) Prime is doing well with primezzang, TSL is still relatively safe, NSHS is the same as ever and FXO is FXO.
Yes, I know of the 3 MVP LoL teams and ST's actions. For teams who can barely pay their players these actions would have been ridiculous. That's why I was asking.
Kind of sad that oGs didn't make the cut though. There were one of the strongest teams way back. I guess losing MC was rather problematic.
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On August 27 2012 06:46 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +
There is no difference in that sense. The difference lies in the acceptance of playing for Kespa and also getting that hands on experience of the highest level of play. It is much like an intern at a major company.
More tournaments like what, Zotac cup? It's not like a B-teamer is going to fly out to MLG or something.You do realize that B-teamers on KeSPA teams practice with the stars, get far better coaching support, participate in OSL just like eSF guys play in GSL, and also usually get an opportunity to play in Proleague at least now and then? They also get a salary, which is more than can be said about most eSF players, and have better housing, as well as freebies from their sponsors and pretty nice vacations during offseason etc.
On August 27 2012 07:00 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 06:58 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 27 2012 06:54 Salazarz wrote:On August 27 2012 06:51 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 27 2012 06:46 Salazarz wrote:
There is no difference in that sense. The difference lies in the acceptance of playing for Kespa and also getting that hands on experience of the highest level of play. It is much like an intern at a major company.
More tournaments like what, Zotac cup? It's not like a B-teamer is going to fly out to MLG or something.You do realize that B-teamers on KeSPA teams practice with the stars, get far better coaching support, participate in OSL just like eSF guys play in GSL, and also usually get an opportunity to play in Proleague at least now and then? They also get a salary, which is more than can be said about most eSF players, and have better housing, as well as freebies from their sponsors and pretty nice vacations during offseason etc. You cannot confirm that. There is something called an "Open Bracket" in which B Teamers can join. Also, there are a whole bunch of online tournaments that these B Teamers can join. Also, I do realize (my second bolded quote) all of that especially because I summed it up in my post that you quoted above. Kespa is where it is at whereas ESF is not. Um, they 'can' join open brackets, but they really can't unless someone sponsors them, so that's irrelevant. I don't think there was a single case of an unknown player flying themselves out to an MLG or whatever, nevermind doing that and eventually winning enough money to cover their expenses.Even players like MKP (using MKP in particular because it's the most obvious example, but it's not just him) wouldn't go to a foreign tournament unless their team or someone else sponsors them to do so - and it's not like an unknown B-teamer is going to get that, so again, moot point. Ok, then how exactly did Scarlett become known? She was not sponsored prior to the open bracket she attended. Also, B Teamers can play in the GSL qualifiers, ESV, online cups etc. I didn't realize Scarlett was Korean...
I did not realize you did not specify which "race" of B Teamers.
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On August 27 2012 06:57 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 06:55 stangstang wrote:
DRG got picked up by MVP just by going to a qualifier. He didn't even qualify for code A for a while. Something like. That is nnot even a possibility under kespa. Again, you're making things up. How do you think KeSPA picked up their players?
You've stated before, there aren't many tournaments for these players to prove themselves, why not let them play in gsl qualifier to prove themselves.
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On August 27 2012 07:01 Sandermatt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 06:50 Salazarz wrote:On August 27 2012 06:44 Sandermatt wrote:On August 27 2012 06:38 Salazarz wrote:On August 27 2012 06:37 Sandermatt wrote:On August 27 2012 06:33 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 06:30 blade55555 wrote:On August 27 2012 06:27 Jormundr wrote:On August 27 2012 06:22 Salazarz wrote:On August 27 2012 06:20 rd wrote:
[quote]
I never argued OGN and KeSPA weren't separate, and I sympathize with OGN that they're the one losing in all of this. But I hold KeSPA responsible for it.
ESF isn't remotely as powerful as KeSPA when it comes to how they can discipline their players. ESF doesn't hold the priorities of the sponsors above the players. ESF doesn't hold the licenses of their players which they can take away for disobeying a ban and completely pull the rug from their competitive career. ESF can't really force their players to do anything as the player could just leave and find greener grass. Theres a huge difference. What makes you think eSF doesn't hold priorities of the sponsors above the players? In fact, the most recent events at WCS prove the opposite. KeSPA can't force their players to do anything as the player could just leave and find greener grass, too - what makes you think otherwise? Wrong. As former KeSPA players they would need a progaming license to play in KeSPA events. If they leave they lose their license, and they never get to play in KeSPA events again (OS2L, this "big project", SC2 Proleague). Whereas players who leave eSF teams can still play in GSL and GSTL (Provided they move to a team that is in the GSTL or partnered with one which is). Yup this, I am not sure why people don't realize that the players on the kespa teams can't really leave or they would be screwing themselves over. Not being able to play in anything kespa related and wouldn't get paid as much on a different team compared to their kespa teams. That, and they have much better salaries too. They have everything to lose and little to gain by leaving. This might be true for the BW stars. For the B-teamers the problem is nobody wants to hire them until they show promising skill or a fanbase, And how is that different for eSF B-teamers? Well, it was more to complete the facts than to critizize KeSPa in this last posting, I gues the only difference is that the eSF players can try to make a name for themselves in a ton of small tournaments, as well as trying to qualify for the GSL. While the BW b-teamers I assume get little chance for televised matches. Also, could the players in Kespa be part of a weaker team (like this shield,join,by tags imply) compete in the top leagues if they wanted? See, you're talking about something you have no idea about, so I really don't know why do you feel qualified to pass on judgements on the way KeSPA operates or which organization is better. Sure, eSF B-teamers can play in stuff like Zotac cups or Korean weeklies - but it's not like you make a name for yourself by winning these. GSL and GSTL are literally the only ways for eSF players to make a breakthrough. It is virtually the same for KeSPA B-teamers. They don't have online cups, but they do have salaries - even if they aren't very high. They do get to play in OSL, as well as get fielded in PL if they come up with a good strategy for a specific map, or coaches just feel like they can afford fielding a weaker player to give them some experience in the booth. What you call 'weaker teams' aren't real teams but rather amateurs. In BW, amateurs couldn't participate in major tournaments (although there minor leagues for these, we just don't really know much about it cus nobody cared about that lol), in SC2... well, most amateurs are now on eSF teams. Taeja for example made himself a name with the ESV tournaments. Hyun is mainly known for his pla in online tournaments too (I think largely european online tournaments). .I do not know how the saleries of each sides b-teamers compare I also doubt you knwo the numbers. B-teamers in the korean teams might also play in the GSTL, that is the same. What I meant are amatuer or semi-professional teams. Some might pay a ittle to get a, a little better player. (teams like Light, earlier also CheckSix). This might also be an option for a b-teamer.
Hyun's winnings from online tournaments are less than 3000$ over half a year. Hardly a massive amount, and he isn't exactly someone you'd call a random B-teamer. I don't know the exact numbers of salaries on the either side of course, but I do know that the amount of money people make from minor tournaments are, well, uninspiring.
I haven't heard of anyone on an amateur or semi-professional team in SC2 to actually make a splash (or a good amount of money), so again, this is hardly something to consider for a player serious about making a big career.
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In addition to the former x6 and LighT (who just picked up a former Kespa player!) there's also infinity 7, Acer, Empire, and others. Additionally, there's the option of personal sponsorships like Violet's. (His story is actually pretty incredible; check it out.) Violet, incidentally, participated in MLG Providence, making it through the open bracket into the championship bracket despite being teamless at the time.
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On August 27 2012 06:57 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 06:55 stangstang wrote:
DRG got picked up by MVP just by going to a qualifier. He didn't even qualify for code A for a while. Something like. That is nnot even a possibility under kespa. Again, you're making things up. How do you think KeSPA picked up their players?
Kespa picked their players by having them play in a tournament called "courage" in which the winner would be given a progamer license and have the opportunity of being a possible candidate to represent Kespa.
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On August 27 2012 07:06 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 07:01 Sandermatt wrote:On August 27 2012 06:50 Salazarz wrote:On August 27 2012 06:44 Sandermatt wrote:On August 27 2012 06:38 Salazarz wrote:On August 27 2012 06:37 Sandermatt wrote:On August 27 2012 06:33 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 06:30 blade55555 wrote:On August 27 2012 06:27 Jormundr wrote:On August 27 2012 06:22 Salazarz wrote:
[quote]
What makes you think eSF doesn't hold priorities of the sponsors above the players? In fact, the most recent events at WCS prove the opposite.
KeSPA can't force their players to do anything as the player could just leave and find greener grass, too - what makes you think otherwise? Wrong. As former KeSPA players they would need a progaming license to play in KeSPA events. If they leave they lose their license, and they never get to play in KeSPA events again (OS2L, this "big project", SC2 Proleague). Whereas players who leave eSF teams can still play in GSL and GSTL (Provided they move to a team that is in the GSTL or partnered with one which is). Yup this, I am not sure why people don't realize that the players on the kespa teams can't really leave or they would be screwing themselves over. Not being able to play in anything kespa related and wouldn't get paid as much on a different team compared to their kespa teams. That, and they have much better salaries too. They have everything to lose and little to gain by leaving. This might be true for the BW stars. For the B-teamers the problem is nobody wants to hire them until they show promising skill or a fanbase, And how is that different for eSF B-teamers? Well, it was more to complete the facts than to critizize KeSPa in this last posting, I gues the only difference is that the eSF players can try to make a name for themselves in a ton of small tournaments, as well as trying to qualify for the GSL. While the BW b-teamers I assume get little chance for televised matches. Also, could the players in Kespa be part of a weaker team (like this shield,join,by tags imply) compete in the top leagues if they wanted? See, you're talking about something you have no idea about, so I really don't know why do you feel qualified to pass on judgements on the way KeSPA operates or which organization is better. Sure, eSF B-teamers can play in stuff like Zotac cups or Korean weeklies - but it's not like you make a name for yourself by winning these. GSL and GSTL are literally the only ways for eSF players to make a breakthrough. It is virtually the same for KeSPA B-teamers. They don't have online cups, but they do have salaries - even if they aren't very high. They do get to play in OSL, as well as get fielded in PL if they come up with a good strategy for a specific map, or coaches just feel like they can afford fielding a weaker player to give them some experience in the booth. What you call 'weaker teams' aren't real teams but rather amateurs. In BW, amateurs couldn't participate in major tournaments (although there minor leagues for these, we just don't really know much about it cus nobody cared about that lol), in SC2... well, most amateurs are now on eSF teams. Taeja for example made himself a name with the ESV tournaments. Hyun is mainly known for his pla in online tournaments too (I think largely european online tournaments). .I do not know how the saleries of each sides b-teamers compare I also doubt you knwo the numbers. B-teamers in the korean teams might also play in the GSTL, that is the same. What I meant are amatuer or semi-professional teams. Some might pay a ittle to get a, a little better player. (teams like Light, earlier also CheckSix). This might also be an option for a b-teamer. I haven't heard of anyone on an amateur or semi-professional team in SC2 to actually make a splash (or a good amount of money), so again, this is hardly something to consider for a player serious about making a big career.
Violet, obviously. Sleep. ReaL. Just a few players who've done pretty well on smaller teams.
Edit: Obviously Scarlett as well, duh. ViBE. HuK started on VT. Stephano started on an amateur team called ToY-gaming.
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On August 27 2012 04:20 BgSBendeR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 04:15 Sandermatt wrote:On August 27 2012 03:59 BgSBendeR wrote:On August 27 2012 03:57 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 03:56 BgSBendeR wrote:On August 27 2012 03:50 Myrddraal wrote:On August 27 2012 03:36 BgSBendeR wrote:
The reason eSF and GOM wants KeSPA to participate in the GSL so badly is actually quite simple. They want to beat the KeSPA players now while they're still catching and declare themselves as the best in sc2...
If KeSPA delays entry to GSL until Season 5, Kespa players will have fully transitioned to sc2 by then would be a lot better than the current sc2 pros since kespa players actually practice >.>
At the moment, it's not an even playing field. People will watch the league with the best players. GOM wants to secure that spot which is why they're being dicks and bribing eSF to pull out of OSL.
KeSPA is doing what any business would do. Protecting their brand. What' wrong with that. It's only wrong because in doing it they are hurting another brand in the process. I really don't think they have anything to lose by participating in the GSL, if they did do poorly nobody would fault them since their transition is so recent. They don't even have to send all their "extremely busy" top quality players, they just have to allow the teams the freedom to choose and maybe put a few players into the GSL preliminaries or accept any seeds that GOM is willing to give. There is no shame in losing in the preliminaries either, as they have been traditionally difficult to break through. Your argument really has no merit, as if ESF really just wanted to beat the KeSPA players they would just stay in OSL and beat them there. You really underestimate the value of an organization's image. if they send the Weaker b-teamer players in the GSL, It will make it look like Kespa players are bad. Which is not what they want. If they send their popular top players, more people will watch GSL and it might make the OSL look bad. which again is bad for business. The correct thing to do is delay entry until the full transition (by season 5) which is what they're doing but GOM and eSF are being dicks about it. How does sending flash to the gsl make the osl look bad? If anything, the performances at wcs made kespa players look fantastic. Business... It will make it look like GOMTV is where the competition is at.. Which will hurt image of OSL which has been established as the top league since the BW days. It was the top league in the BW days. If they want to be it in SC2 they will need to have the best production value/player treatment and the best sponsor exposure. They should achieve this by quality, not by banning their players from the competition. You honestly don't get it. Right now its not even a fair playing field. eSF players are above KeSPA players. There's no denying that. KeSPA wants their players to actually be competitive which is why they're delaying entry to GSL until season 5 which is when the proleague will be a sc2 only league and will be equal if not better than current eSF/GOM pros.
If they want their players to be competitive, why have an OSL competition that would have pitted eSF players vs. KeSPA? Their OWN Tournament would not have protected their players as you seem to imply.
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On August 27 2012 06:50 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 06:44 Sandermatt wrote:On August 27 2012 06:38 Salazarz wrote:On August 27 2012 06:37 Sandermatt wrote:On August 27 2012 06:33 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 06:30 blade55555 wrote:On August 27 2012 06:27 Jormundr wrote:On August 27 2012 06:22 Salazarz wrote:On August 27 2012 06:20 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 06:12 Salazarz wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, just like OGN and KeSPA are separate entities.
As for your second 'point', it doesn't really change anything. The point is players do what they are told by the people in charge; sure you could argue that eSF is managed by people who are closer to e-sports etcetc, but the fact remains that players do what they are told, just like under KeSPA. The different between the two organizations isn't nearly as big as you seem to believe - eSF is pretty much a baby KeSPA.
I never argued OGN and KeSPA weren't separate, and I sympathize with OGN that they're the one losing in all of this. But I hold KeSPA responsible for it. ESF isn't remotely as powerful as KeSPA when it comes to how they can discipline their players. ESF doesn't hold the priorities of the sponsors above the players. ESF doesn't hold the licenses of their players which they can take away for disobeying a ban and completely pull the rug from their competitive career. ESF can't really force their players to do anything as the player could just leave and find greener grass. Theres a huge difference. What makes you think eSF doesn't hold priorities of the sponsors above the players? In fact, the most recent events at WCS prove the opposite. KeSPA can't force their players to do anything as the player could just leave and find greener grass, too - what makes you think otherwise? Wrong. As former KeSPA players they would need a progaming license to play in KeSPA events. If they leave they lose their license, and they never get to play in KeSPA events again (OS2L, this "big project", SC2 Proleague). Whereas players who leave eSF teams can still play in GSL and GSTL (Provided they move to a team that is in the GSTL or partnered with one which is). Yup this, I am not sure why people don't realize that the players on the kespa teams can't really leave or they would be screwing themselves over. Not being able to play in anything kespa related and wouldn't get paid as much on a different team compared to their kespa teams. That, and they have much better salaries too. They have everything to lose and little to gain by leaving. This might be true for the BW stars. For the B-teamers the problem is nobody wants to hire them until they show promising skill or a fanbase, And how is that different for eSF B-teamers? Well, it was more to complete the facts than to critizize KeSPa in this last posting, I gues the only difference is that the eSF players can try to make a name for themselves in a ton of small tournaments, as well as trying to qualify for the GSL. While the BW b-teamers I assume get little chance for televised matches. Also, could the players in Kespa be part of a weaker team (like this shield,join,by tags imply) compete in the top leagues if they wanted? See, you're talking about something you have no idea about, so I really don't know why do you feel qualified to pass on judgements on the way KeSPA operates or which organization is better. Sure, eSF B-teamers can play in stuff like Zotac cups or Korean weeklies - but it's not like you make a name for yourself Liquid Taejaby winning these. GSL and GSTL and streaming, and the ESV Korean Weekly, Playhem Dailies, and ONOG tournaments, NASL qualifiers, and I got bored are literally the only ways for eSF players to make a breakthrough. It is virtually the same for KeSPA B-teamers. They don't have online cups, but they do have salaries - even if they aren't very high. They do get to play in OSL, as well as get fielded in PL if they come up with a good strategy for a specific map, or coaches just feel like they can afford fielding a weaker player to give them some experience in the booth. What you call 'weaker teams' aren't real teams but rather amateurs. In BW, amateurs couldn't participate in major tournaments (although there minor leagues for these, we just don't really know much about it cus nobody cared about that lol), in SC2... well, most amateurs are now on eSF teams.
Edited for you.
Also I assume you don't want amateurs to play in major tournaments by your statement that weaker teams are just amateurs.
How will we get new professionals if the amateurs don't ever get to play against decent players? I will not accept Bnet ladder as an answer, because that not even close to the pressure / mindgames that go on in a online Bo3, let alone a broadcast lan match.
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These threads are just getting out of hand. I am going back to bed until there is some kind of update. =) I hope that things will get resolved for the good of players and the leagues.
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On August 27 2012 07:01 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 06:33 Salazarz wrote:On August 27 2012 06:27 Jormundr wrote:On August 27 2012 06:22 Salazarz wrote:On August 27 2012 06:20 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 06:12 Salazarz wrote:On August 27 2012 06:05 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 05:50 Salazarz wrote:On August 27 2012 05:47 Sandermatt wrote:On August 27 2012 05:40 Salazarz wrote:
Btw, using the logic of eSF fanboys (sorry, I can't think of any other way to call it), eSF players are now being forced to go against their wishes with their boycott - after all, they have said multiple times in the past that playing in OSL and playing against KeSPA players in general is something they really look forward to doing, and want to do. But when eSF decides to boycott OSL despite players saying they want to play in it prior to these events, it's the players themselves deciding what's best for them in the long run. When the KeSPA players said they'd like to compete in GSL when possible and then KeSPA pulls out of GSL4, it's KeSPA forcing players to do shit they don't want to. Hmm!
Because Kespa represents the players employers and not the players. Kespa will ban the players if they join a tournament they do not agree. eSF has no sanction tool. And eSF have been fine in joining any other tournament than GSL. eSF is also fine with playing in OSL and Kespa playing in GSL. Something KeSPA cannot say. I'm pretty sure Coca, Byun, and Naniwa (to name a few) might disagree with you whether eSF / Gom have a 'sanction tool' or not. The thing about KeSPA 'refusing to play in GSL flat out' is bullshit. All they did was they won't play in season 4 - there is no real reason to read further into that. First of all, ESF and GOM are separate entities. Second of all, the players you listed were either "sanctioned" by their team, or by GOM. ESF had nothing to do with either. Also, stop comparing ESF to KeSPA as they are different kinds of representative bodies. One represents players, the other represents sponsors. Pretty EZ to understand. Apparently you need to read further into the consequences of 'not playing in season 4.' Yeah, just like OGN and KeSPA are separate entities. As for your second 'point', it doesn't really change anything. The point is players do what they are told by the people in charge; sure you could argue that eSF is managed by people who are closer to e-sports etcetc, but the fact remains that players do what they are told, just like under KeSPA. The different between the two organizations isn't nearly as big as you seem to believe - eSF is pretty much a baby KeSPA. I never argued OGN and KeSPA weren't separate, and I sympathize with OGN that they're the one losing in all of this. But I hold KeSPA responsible for it. ESF isn't remotely as powerful as KeSPA when it comes to how they can discipline their players. ESF doesn't hold the priorities of the sponsors above the players. ESF doesn't hold the licenses of their players which they can take away for disobeying a ban and completely pull the rug from their competitive career. ESF can't really force their players to do anything as the player could just leave and find greener grass. Theres a huge difference. What makes you think eSF doesn't hold priorities of the sponsors above the players? In fact, the most recent events at WCS prove the opposite. KeSPA can't force their players to do anything as the player could just leave and find greener grass, too - what makes you think otherwise? Wrong. As former KeSPA players they would need a progaming license to play in KeSPA events. If they leave they lose their license, and they never get to play in KeSPA events again (OS2L, this "big project", SC2 Proleague). Whereas players who leave eSF teams can still play in GSL and GSTL (Provided they move to a team that is in the GSTL or partnered with one which is). Can you stop making random shit up to try and support your stupid arguments? It's really pathetic. You say how a player leaving an eSF team can still play in GSTL if their new team is in GSTL - it's exactly the same with Proleague, what a surprise huh. And why are you saying someone leaving a KeSPA team would need a progaming license to play in OS2L. OGN made that tournament open to literally anyone. edit: of course, the fact remains that KeSPA teams at least currently are the best managed ones, give players the most secure source of income, and the best development potential... but of course, being FREE!!!! is more important. lol. I would appreciate it if you would try one of the following: 1. Attempt to debunk my posts 2. Pretend to be civil 3. Leave SC2 Proleague hasn't started yet. If you hadn't figured it out already I was talking about a KeSPA player leaving their KeSPA team in order to play in GSL. In your example of Proleague you are talking about someone leaving a KeSPA team to join another KeSPA team, which is entirely irrelevant to both of our arguments. I concede the fact that if a KeSPA player left KeSPA right now and asked to play in the GSL, they would receive no sanction of any sort, and would definitely not be banned from playing in KeSPA events. Also, would you quit making up random shit like: "KeSPA teams at least currently are the best managed ones" - Explain how you qualify the excellence of managerial procedures and decision-making. I would argue that Startale is one of the best managed teams because they bought up a rival team, Zenex. In professional sports, being able to absorb some or all of the players from a competitor is seen as a managerial success. "(KeSPA teams) give players the most secure source of income, and the best development potential" - Explain where you have found out that the average KeSPA player is paid better and in a more consistent manner than the average player on the teams who form the eSF (not to mention the major foreign teams and slayers). I know star players have received very luxurious salaries in the past from KeSPA, but I know little about what their other players typically earn. I am also very anxious to hear how you would qualify something as variable as development potential. Please do inform.
I would appreciate if you would try one of the following:
1. Not state baseless opinions as facts
2. Reply with blatantly wrong information presented as truth
3. Leave
I don't know what's the first part of your post supposed to mean so I'm just going to ignore it.
KeSPA teams have much stronger infrastructure and budgets than eSF teams. They have more supporting staff in terms of coaches (granted, with the switch it's probably going to take a little while to bring that back up to their BW levels). They practice much harder, and they practice and develop strategies with each other rather than their random friends. That is a very important point. The fact that Startale was able to buy up a rival team doesn't say much about how 'good' management of Startale is, merely proves how shaky positions of at least some (in this example, Zenex) eSF teams were. It's also a pretty nice show of their lack of confidence in their own roster. :l
B-teamers on KeSPA don't get paid very much - but it's been mentioned plenty of times that majority of players on eSF teams aren't paid at all. Like, even the star players didn't have salaries until recently (and who knows if they even have salaries now). Granted, the payment thing is mostly guesswork on my part, but seeing as in previous NASL season eSF teams said they can't afford flying out their players to the finals even with some incentive payments from NASL, I don't know, doesn't seem like a big stretch to me.
As for the comment about development potential, simple. They practice more, and practice harder. It's a tougher work environment for sure, but it's one that gives the best results. I'm sure you can see that for yourself soon enough, if you don't already.
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Empire is now an amateur team?
ReaL is somehow a 'relevant' player?
I don't know how can you say an NA player going to MLG is the same as a Korean who doesn't even speak English doing that.
Anyway, this conversation isn't going anywhere so good day to you.
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On August 27 2012 07:10 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 06:57 Salazarz wrote:On August 27 2012 06:55 stangstang wrote:
DRG got picked up by MVP just by going to a qualifier. He didn't even qualify for code A for a while. Something like. That is nnot even a possibility under kespa. Again, you're making things up. How do you think KeSPA picked up their players? Kespa picked their players by having them play in a tournament called "courage" in which the winner would be given a progamer license and have the opportunity of being a possible candidate to represent Kespa.
The draft was one way to pick up a player, they also just invited promising amateurs into the B-team from which they could compete in Courage. And in the old days, you could get licensed by tournament performances alone.
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On August 27 2012 07:21 Salazarz wrote:
Anyway, this conversation isn't going anywhere so good day to you.
Good day and good riddance.
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This thread have gone down the gutter. Seriously wtf have been going on in the last few pages. Its headache inducing.
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United States10328 Posts
On August 27 2012 06:46 Salazarz wrote:
More tournaments like what, Zotac cup? It's not like a B-teamer is going to fly out to MLG or something.
lol, KT_Anyppi (KT's 3rd 4th string Protoss, behind Stats, Violet [RIP], and Tempest) left KT, went to IM, and is now + Show Spoiler +
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On August 27 2012 07:18 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 07:01 Jormundr wrote:On August 27 2012 06:33 Salazarz wrote:On August 27 2012 06:27 Jormundr wrote:On August 27 2012 06:22 Salazarz wrote:On August 27 2012 06:20 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 06:12 Salazarz wrote:On August 27 2012 06:05 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 05:50 Salazarz wrote:On August 27 2012 05:47 Sandermatt wrote:
[quote]
Because Kespa represents the players employers and not the players. Kespa will ban the players if they join a tournament they do not agree. eSF has no sanction tool. And eSF have been fine in joining any other tournament than GSL.
eSF is also fine with playing in OSL and Kespa playing in GSL. Something KeSPA cannot say. I'm pretty sure Coca, Byun, and Naniwa (to name a few) might disagree with you whether eSF / Gom have a 'sanction tool' or not. The thing about KeSPA 'refusing to play in GSL flat out' is bullshit. All they did was they won't play in season 4 - there is no real reason to read further into that. First of all, ESF and GOM are separate entities. Second of all, the players you listed were either "sanctioned" by their team, or by GOM. ESF had nothing to do with either. Also, stop comparing ESF to KeSPA as they are different kinds of representative bodies. One represents players, the other represents sponsors. Pretty EZ to understand. Apparently you need to read further into the consequences of 'not playing in season 4.' Yeah, just like OGN and KeSPA are separate entities. As for your second 'point', it doesn't really change anything. The point is players do what they are told by the people in charge; sure you could argue that eSF is managed by people who are closer to e-sports etcetc, but the fact remains that players do what they are told, just like under KeSPA. The different between the two organizations isn't nearly as big as you seem to believe - eSF is pretty much a baby KeSPA. I never argued OGN and KeSPA weren't separate, and I sympathize with OGN that they're the one losing in all of this. But I hold KeSPA responsible for it. ESF isn't remotely as powerful as KeSPA when it comes to how they can discipline their players. ESF doesn't hold the priorities of the sponsors above the players. ESF doesn't hold the licenses of their players which they can take away for disobeying a ban and completely pull the rug from their competitive career. ESF can't really force their players to do anything as the player could just leave and find greener grass. Theres a huge difference. What makes you think eSF doesn't hold priorities of the sponsors above the players? In fact, the most recent events at WCS prove the opposite. KeSPA can't force their players to do anything as the player could just leave and find greener grass, too - what makes you think otherwise? Wrong. As former KeSPA players they would need a progaming license to play in KeSPA events. If they leave they lose their license, and they never get to play in KeSPA events again (OS2L, this "big project", SC2 Proleague). Whereas players who leave eSF teams can still play in GSL and GSTL (Provided they move to a team that is in the GSTL or partnered with one which is). Can you stop making random shit up to try and support your stupid arguments? It's really pathetic. You say how a player leaving an eSF team can still play in GSTL if their new team is in GSTL - it's exactly the same with Proleague, what a surprise huh. And why are you saying someone leaving a KeSPA team would need a progaming license to play in OS2L. OGN made that tournament open to literally anyone. edit: of course, the fact remains that KeSPA teams at least currently are the best managed ones, give players the most secure source of income, and the best development potential... but of course, being FREE!!!! is more important. lol. I would appreciate it if you would try one of the following: 1. Attempt to debunk my posts 2. Pretend to be civil 3. Leave SC2 Proleague hasn't started yet. If you hadn't figured it out already I was talking about a KeSPA player leaving their KeSPA team in order to play in GSL. In your example of Proleague you are talking about someone leaving a KeSPA team to join another KeSPA team, which is entirely irrelevant to both of our arguments. I concede the fact that if a KeSPA player left KeSPA right now and asked to play in the GSL, they would receive no sanction of any sort, and would definitely not be banned from playing in KeSPA events. Also, would you quit making up random shit like: "KeSPA teams at least currently are the best managed ones" - Explain how you qualify the excellence of managerial procedures and decision-making. I would argue that Startale is one of the best managed teams because they bought up a rival team, Zenex. In professional sports, being able to absorb some or all of the players from a competitor is seen as a managerial success. "(KeSPA teams) give players the most secure source of income, and the best development potential" - Explain where you have found out that the average KeSPA player is paid better and in a more consistent manner than the average player on the teams who form the eSF (not to mention the major foreign teams and slayers). I know star players have received very luxurious salaries in the past from KeSPA, but I know little about what their other players typically earn. I am also very anxious to hear how you would qualify something as variable as development potential. Please do inform. I would appreciate if you would try one of the following: 1. Not state baseless opinions as facts 2. Reply with blatantly wrong information presented as truth 3. Leave I don't know what's the first part of your post supposed to mean so I'm just going to ignore it. KeSPA teams have much stronger infrastructure and budgets than eSF teams. They have more supporting staff in terms of coaches (granted, with the switch it's probably going to take a little while to bring that back up to their BW levels). They practice much harder, and they practice and develop strategies with each other rather than their random friends. That is a very important point. The fact that Startale was able to buy up a rival team doesn't say much about how 'good' management of Startale is, merely proves how shaky positions of at least some (in this example, Zenex) eSF teams were. It's also a pretty nice show of their lack of confidence in their own roster. :l B-teamers on KeSPA don't get paid very much - but it's been mentioned plenty of times that majority of players on eSF teams aren't paid at all. Like, even the star players didn't have salaries until recently (and who knows if they even have salaries now). Granted, the payment thing is mostly guesswork on my part, but seeing as in previous NASL season eSF teams said they can't afford flying out their players to the finals even with some incentive payments from NASL, I don't know, doesn't seem like a big stretch to me. As for the comment about development potential, simple. They practice more, and practice harder. It's a tougher work environment for sure, but it's one that gives the best results. I'm sure you can see that for yourself soon enough, if you don't already.
Ok, I've bolded your bullshit.
I also italicized your assumptions.
For your (bolded) bullshit:
1. "They(KeSPA players) practice harder (than non KeSPA players), and they develop strategies with their teammates(unlike other sc2 teams)"
Do you have any idea how many terran strategies have come out of the slayers house, who until recently had the strongest overall terran lineup of any team? I can personally attest to slayers dragon (a b-teamer if you will) leaving his stream to learn 'secret strategies' from his teammate. Second of all, show me where they practice harder than non-KeSPA players.
2. It's a pretty nice show of a lack of confidence? So if the german football team managed to hire Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Wayne Rooney, and Andres Iniesta, they lack confidence? So that's a bad idea for them to do? Bullshit. Teams generally flourish when they have a deeper pool of player skill to draw from.
3. So you're guessing on how much KeSPA players are paid and how much non KeSPA players are paid. I'm glad you base your opinions in something like your own baseless opinion because it really helps convince me to agree with you. Oh, wait, it doesn't. Bullshit.
4. Same as 3
5. Same as 1
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Why do I get the feeling that this shit is not even close to being resolved?
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On August 27 2012 06:33 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 06:27 Jormundr wrote:On August 27 2012 06:22 Salazarz wrote:On August 27 2012 06:20 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 06:12 Salazarz wrote:On August 27 2012 06:05 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 05:50 Salazarz wrote:On August 27 2012 05:47 Sandermatt wrote:On August 27 2012 05:40 Salazarz wrote:
Btw, using the logic of eSF fanboys (sorry, I can't think of any other way to call it), eSF players are now being forced to go against their wishes with their boycott - after all, they have said multiple times in the past that playing in OSL and playing against KeSPA players in general is something they really look forward to doing, and want to do. But when eSF decides to boycott OSL despite players saying they want to play in it prior to these events, it's the players themselves deciding what's best for them in the long run. When the KeSPA players said they'd like to compete in GSL when possible and then KeSPA pulls out of GSL4, it's KeSPA forcing players to do shit they don't want to. Hmm!
Because Kespa represents the players employers and not the players. Kespa will ban the players if they join a tournament they do not agree. eSF has no sanction tool. And eSF have been fine in joining any other tournament than GSL. eSF is also fine with playing in OSL and Kespa playing in GSL. Something KeSPA cannot say. I'm pretty sure Coca, Byun, and Naniwa (to name a few) might disagree with you whether eSF / Gom have a 'sanction tool' or not. The thing about KeSPA 'refusing to play in GSL flat out' is bullshit. All they did was they won't play in season 4 - there is no real reason to read further into that. First of all, ESF and GOM are separate entities. Second of all, the players you listed were either "sanctioned" by their team, or by GOM. ESF had nothing to do with either. Also, stop comparing ESF to KeSPA as they are different kinds of representative bodies. One represents players, the other represents sponsors. Pretty EZ to understand. Apparently you need to read further into the consequences of 'not playing in season 4.' Yeah, just like OGN and KeSPA are separate entities. As for your second 'point', it doesn't really change anything. The point is players do what they are told by the people in charge; sure you could argue that eSF is managed by people who are closer to e-sports etcetc, but the fact remains that players do what they are told, just like under KeSPA. The different between the two organizations isn't nearly as big as you seem to believe - eSF is pretty much a baby KeSPA. I never argued OGN and KeSPA weren't separate, and I sympathize with OGN that they're the one losing in all of this. But I hold KeSPA responsible for it. ESF isn't remotely as powerful as KeSPA when it comes to how they can discipline their players. ESF doesn't hold the priorities of the sponsors above the players. ESF doesn't hold the licenses of their players which they can take away for disobeying a ban and completely pull the rug from their competitive career. ESF can't really force their players to do anything as the player could just leave and find greener grass. Theres a huge difference. What makes you think eSF doesn't hold priorities of the sponsors above the players? In fact, the most recent events at WCS prove the opposite. KeSPA can't force their players to do anything as the player could just leave and find greener grass, too - what makes you think otherwise? Wrong. As former KeSPA players they would need a progaming license to play in KeSPA events. If they leave they lose their license, and they never get to play in KeSPA events again (OS2L, this "big project", SC2 Proleague). Whereas players who leave eSF teams can still play in GSL and GSTL (Provided they move to a team that is in the GSTL or partnered with one which is). Can you stop making random shit up to try and support your stupid arguments? It's really pathetic. You say how a player leaving an eSF team can still play in GSTL if their new team is in GSTL - it's exactly the same with Proleague, what a surprise huh. And why are you saying someone leaving a KeSPA team would need a progaming license to play in OS2L. OGN made that tournament open to literally anyone. edit: of course, the fact remains that KeSPA teams at least currently are the best managed ones, give players the most secure source of income, and the best development potential... but of course, being FREE!!!! is more important. lol.
MC isn't in a eSF Team and is still allowed to play in the GSTL. SlayerS has nothing to do with the eSF and still participates... There are more examples, but these two are the most obvious ones.
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EPT
