EPT[Resolved] Kespa, GOM, ESF dispute - Page 22
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Prplppleatr
United States1518 Posts
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Sandermatt
Switzerland1365 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:36 Drowsy wrote: Wouldn't it be awesome if Kespa and ESF were just dismantled and there was no retarded governing body which controls whether or not players can participate in any given leagues and was at the discretion of each individual player and his team? We can only dream... Like seriously, can't the leagues just set to rules as far as pausing/chatting/disqualification? There's like no reason for a governing body. Well, esf has not done anything before that. Their only purpose seems to be exactly that: No control over the players. If an esf player would join OSL anyway, nobody would punish him. | ||
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Quarz
448 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:19 Femari wrote: So what? That doesn't mean they should be able to waltz in and dictate everything in the scene. Hell they shouldn't even be dictating what their players can play in. Your employer should dictate what you work for. He simply should send you their money. Anyway if Kespa Player has problems is up to them to build up an player union. The ESF doesn't represent their interests. If Stork talks about he should maybe talk with other big famous player and do the player union. It like if CR7 says to RM, hey i wanna play in the premier legue next week, screw you RM. | ||
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achan1058
1091 Posts
ESF is necessary. In fact I hope KeSPA teams will join ESF and form a united player's union. They need to fight for their conditions. | ||
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Frankon
3054 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:33 ChrysaliS_ wrote: It's not about this one OSL. It's a much bigger issue. If KeSPA is allowed to develop a stranglehold on the SC2 scene the way they did in BW, nobody wins, except for KeSPA. It is in both the players' and viewers' best interest for ESF to stand strong here, even if it means sacrificing one tournament. You could argue that sponsors would prefer the KeSPA-Reich model of BW, but GOM and foreign teams have both demonstrated that E-sports sponsorships can be successful without autocracy. Sadly the position of "strangleholder" is already occupied by Blizzard. Kespa will never have the same powers in SC2 as it had in BW. Blizzard can forget to lift a automatic IP ban on too many connections (or use 24h to respond to a request) rendering all the legendary Kespa power useless. Or emergency service maintenance 10 minutes before a tournament start. PS. So you prefer a ESF-Communism model of SC2 (one doesnt suffer alone - we all suffer) to a KeSPA-Reich one ^^ | ||
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:26 Salazarz wrote: I hope people will at least glance through this post before posting further nonsensical arguments. There's really a lot more to it than KeSPA trying to push eSF/Gom around and eSF/Gom 'protecting their freedom'. I not only glanced through you post, I actually read all of it  And judging by the way you were arguing against GomTV Classic, that they intruded a healthy established scene and tried to rob it, you should actually side with eSF right now, because, you know, Kespa/OGN did shit for SC2 up until the switch, and the scene is perfectly healthy without them. Same train of thought - they are the intruders here that want a piece of the pie. (Disclaimer: I know it is not exactly the same situation and that SC2 scene in Korea would profit greatly from it, yet it is still similar enough to echo this kind of argumentation). Oh and the same that goes for Kespa and OGN not being the same thing goes for eSF and GOM as well, they are not the same thing. So you shouldn't blame GOM/Mr.Chae for anything here... I still hope that they settle it peacefully, but Kespa needs to realize that they do not have the same kind of leverage that they used to have in BW and that they cannot establish a monopoly again like they seem to be trying. | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:42 Frankon wrote: Sadly the position of "strangleholder" is already occupied by Blizzard. Kespa will never have the same powers in SC2 as it had in BW. Blizzard can forget to lift a automatic IP ban on too many connections (or use 24h to respond to a request) rendering all the legendary Kespa power useless. Or emergency service maintenance 10 minutes before a tournament start. PS. So you prefer a ESF-Communism model of SC2 (one doesnt suffer alone - we all suffer) to a KeSPA-Reich one ^^ Those analogies... was that necessary... | ||
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attackmoveftw
45 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:33 ChrysaliS_ wrote: It's not about this one OSL. It's a much bigger issue. If KeSPA is allowed to develop a stranglehold on the SC2 scene the way they did in BW, nobody wins, except for KeSPA. It is in both the players' and viewers' best interest for ESF to stand strong here, even if it means sacrificing one tournament. You could argue that sponsors would prefer the KeSPA-Reich model of BW, but GOM and foreign teams have both demonstrated that E-sports sponsorships can be successful without autocracy. You mean like the once vibrant COD4 scene that died once Activision started cranking out endless iterations of COD, each more dumbed down and casual than the previous? Yeah, I think an Blizzard-Activision-Reich model will be great for Starcraft. Btw, I think we just hit the Goddard point. | ||
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xBillehx
United States1289 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:36 Salazarz wrote: What reason do you have to think otherwise? Idk, maybe the completely empty schedule loads of players have for the next 3 months. I mean really, if Flash were to fall from the Ro16 (assuming ESF players play) what in the world would he, or rather the entire KT team, do for the next few months? They've got nothing. No PL, no OSL, nothing. Maybe some supposed MLG online matches? | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:38 MrCon wrote: Your 2nd paragraph of the spoilered section is a good description of what is currently happening with reversed roles xD That's true kespa never officially said they'd participate in GSL4. But they made everything to pretend they'd do it, without saying it. What I don't understand is the "but kespa made sports possible !" argument. Yeah, big thanks to them. That doesn't give them the right to do everything they want. Yeah, which makes Chae bringing up 'past insults' and how he sees KeSPA as a 'threat' even more ironic now, doesn't it? Anyway, if eSF players said we will not play in any further OSLs unless KeSPA players also participate in GSL, that'd be a reasonable demand despite the transitions and what-have-you, but the point is they joined OSL way back, and are pulling out of it in the middle of the tournament, even though KeSPA really hasn't done anything blatantly wrong. The accusation of them 'boycotting' GSL is based on assumptions alone, and is in really bad taste. | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:40 Sandermatt wrote: Well, esf has not done anything before that. Their only purpose seems to be exactly that: No control over the players. If an esf player would join OSL anyway, nobody would punish him. And yet they're banning all their players from playing in OSL | ||
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setzer
United States3284 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:36 Salazarz wrote: What reason do you have to think otherwise? So you actually believe their reasons for not entering are 100% because of scheduling conflicts? That they would be privy to scheduling information so far in advance they could say there are conflicts with GSL S5 (which apparently now there schedule doesn't conflict with, hmm)? I've posted reasoning behind why their claim of scheduling conflicts is completely bullshit, you can go through my posts to see the lack of logic on KeSPAs part. Fact is, KeSPA players used to operate under a busier Proleague and two individual leagues, very much different from now. With playoffs coming up, many players have nothing to do other than practice or go on vacation. I think it is very naive to believe there is absolutely no political motivation behind the decisions towards GOMTV. | ||
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Femari
United States2900 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:40 Quarz wrote: Your employer should dictate what you work for. He simply should send you their money. Anyway if Kespa Player has problems is up to them to build up an player union. The ESF doesn't represent their interests. If Stork talks about he should maybe talk with other big famous player and do the player union. It like if CR7 says to RM, hey i wanna play in the premier legue next week, screw you RM. CR7 is under contract. The players are not under a labor contract. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126075 | ||
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Sandermatt
Switzerland1365 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:46 floor exercise wrote: And yet they're banning all their players from playing in OSL No, the players are choosing not to join the OSL. It is a decision made by the players. | ||
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ff7legend
United States213 Posts
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:43 ACrow wrote: I not only glanced through you post, I actually read all of it And judging by the way you were arguing against GomTV Classic, that they intruded a healthy established scene and tried to rob it, you should actually side with eSF right now, because, you know, Kespa/OGN did shit for SC2 up until the switch, and the scene is perfectly healthy without them. Same train of thought - they are the intruders here that want a piece of the pie. (Disclaimer: I know it is not exactly the same situation and that SC2 scene in Korea would profit greatly from it, yet it is still similar enough to echo this kind of argumentation). Oh and the same that goes for Kespa and OGN not being the same thing goes for eSF and GOM as well, they are not the same thing. So you shouldn't blame GOM/Mr.Chae for anything here... I still hope that they settle it peacefully, but Kespa needs to realize that they do not have the same kind of leverage that they used to have in BW and that they cannot establish a monopoly again like they seem to be trying. But, KeSPA aren't intruding the scene!!! So far they are perfectly happy to play in their own leagues, practice, and get their SC2 skills up to scratch. The only reason OSL even had eSF players in it is because the said eSF players were super excited to participate in it. It's true that KeSPA/OGN did nothing for SC2 before their switch - but that was because Blizzard wouldn't let them. Now, they are transitioning late (thanks to Blizzard), they are taking it slow - which is absolutely the right thing to do in their situation, but now are blamed for being patient and cautious rather than diving in head-first. It's not like they demand seeds in GSL "or else", it's not like they demand eSF players in their leagues "or else" - they just want to have plenty of time before they commit to anything 'big', which is how things always worked for them. | ||
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Femari
United States2900 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:46 floor exercise wrote: And yet they're banning all their players from playing in OSL MC is a member of SK, which isn't a member of the ESF. He pulled out as well. | ||
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Arceus
Vietnam8333 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:34 Greenei wrote: nice try kespa employee. do you really think kespas reasons to not join gsl are 100% legit? like really? at least they provided reasons, not acting a dick and pulling out in the middle of the league which is set to commerce in two days? dont get me wrong kids, I dont side with anyone. In this market share battle, GOM/ESF has been showing loopholes, KeSPA capitalized on that, so GOM/ESF gone apeshit. Imo this move is too provocative and it would end up with KeSPA doing something just as crazy. Who will bite the dust in the end? Who would Blizz stick with? An online broadcaster who failed to capture the domestic audience in two years, or , a ministry-tied organization with ten years in the business and a national cable channel? You choose. and ffs dont include those "foreigner" or "esport" nonsense yo. Whoever gets more Korean viewership wins. Think any of the two parties give a fuck about these terms? | ||
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sc14s
United States5052 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:44 attackmoveftw wrote: You mean like the once vibrant COD4 scene that died once Activision started cranking out endless iterations of COD, each more dumbed down and casual than the previous? Yeah, I think an Blizzard-Activision-Reich model will be great for Starcraft. Btw, I think we just hit the Goddard point. rofl, as if the CoD ripoff was ever as good as the other shooters it stole all of its ideas from (primarily DoD).. | ||
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Sandermatt
Switzerland1365 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:48 Salazarz wrote: But, KeSPA aren't intruding the scene!!! So far they are perfectly happy to play in their own leagues, practice, and get their SC2 skills up to scratch. The only reason OSL even had eSF players in it is because the said eSF players were super excited to participate in it. It's true that KeSPA/OGN did nothing for SC2 before their switch - but that was because Blizzard wouldn't let them. Now, they are transitioning late (thanks to Blizzard), they are taking it slow - which is absolutely the right thing to do in their situation, but now are blamed for being patient and cautious rather than diving in head-first. It's not like they demand seeds in GSL "or else", it's not like they demand eSF players in their leagues "or else" - they just want to have plenty of time before they commit to anything 'big', which is how things always worked for them. And the esf players give them even more time to prepare. | ||
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