EPT[Resolved] Kespa, GOM, ESF dispute - Page 21
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
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Pzar
New Zealand46 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:15 amazingoopah wrote: ESF is running the risk of looking worse than KESPA on this issue... kespa isn't the best actor in the pro SC scene but they have given the appearance of relenting and now ESF risks looking like the bad guy by potentially holding the very first SC2 OSL hostage.. Sort of. You also have to factor in that without KeSPA's history, we likely wouldn't be in the same situation either. | ||
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Sandermatt
Switzerland1365 Posts
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rebdomine
6040 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:18 NHY wrote: KeSPA is trying to screw GSL after ESF joined OSL. This is on KeSPA. How is the GSL screwed? The tournament is still going to proceed well even without the KeSPA players. And at this point, if any of them do qualify, it'd probably be what 3 or 4 players. ESF is ruining a whole tournament by pulling out half the players in it. That seems more like screwing a tournament to me than not letting players play in qualifiers. | ||
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mango_destroyer
Canada3914 Posts
On August 25 2012 23:37 Tsubbi wrote: how blind/brainwashed do you have to be to side with kespa on this matter!? funnily enough esf also represents the interests of the kespa players atm Exactly. The ones defending kespa don`t care about the interests of the players of both orgs. It may seem extreme to pull out of OSL now but it isn`t so black and white and they can`t afford to let Kespa walk over them. | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
About KeSPA "killing off" GomTV during Broodwar: That side of the story is basically completely made up by GomTV who were upset they couldn't get in on the revenues created by KeSPA, and the foreign fans hated on KeSPA over it because Gom did have English casters - something KeSPA did not. + Show Spoiler + During the period of time leading up to last Gom Classic season, the competition between KeSPA teams was at it's peak, it was definitely the era of biggest storylines and rivalries, and the pressure on every single player of KeSPA teams was ridiculous. That was also the time where individual players and coaches (NOT "evil men in suits from KeSPA") continually complained about having to play too many games every week, and not having enough prep time for the key leagues. It was also the time where coaches of several teams (again, NOT "evil men in suits from KeSPA") decided to prohibit their players from entering both MSL and OSL at the same time. In fact, quite a few players were not allowed to even participate in the preliminaries of individual leagues as they were needed to help the stars practice for their PL matches. It was not tyranny - it was what allowed KeSPA teams to show us the greatest games of Broodwar ever played. It's what made them so good. Enter Gom Classic league. You have players struggling with their already existing work-load, suddenly a new league attempts to enter the scene. Is it reasonable to expect players who already struggle with their schedule to be excited about it? Bear in mind that for the most likely candidates to win the top prizes, the tournament prizes aren't even the main part of their paycheck - their salaries are much higher than what winning a first place in the tournament is. It was a very bad time for GomTV to push their league in; also, they were basically trying to make money off a scene KeSPA had created from scratch, with no involvement of GomTV prior to that. It was Proleague, OSL and MSL who popularized the teams and players; it was KeSPA who created the fanbase and the infrastructure to support it. Gom literally just walked in and expected a slice of the pie, then got mad because it didn't work out that way. The complaints from Mr. Chae or anyone else on GomTV staff about "KeSPA having done this before" is 100% bitter nonsense, and you really shouldn't take them for granted. About KeSPA not entering GSL4 etc: It was never announced anywhere that KeSPA players will participate in the upcoming GSL season. Players did say in their interviews that they'd like to participate as soon as it's possible, KeSPA themselves said more than once that they are looking forward to integrating with the existing SC2 scene - but there were no concrete dates or tournaments named. Time and time again they have stated that Proleague is the most important thing for them, that the teams are still in transitional period and aren't feeling very confident about their abilities in SC2, that they need more time to adjust. WCS is a very special tournament created by Blizzard. It was planned for quite a long time, and KeSPA were aware from the get-go that they are expected to participate both in the open qualifier for it, and through KeSPA seeded invites. They play in this tournament. OSL is a tournament ran by OnGameNet (NOT KeSPA, it is a long-time partner of KeSPA but it's NOT the same thing, and it's NOT ran by the same people - their relationship is at most as close as that of GomTV and eSF, and they had their conflicts in the past). It was announced a veeeeeery long time in advance, back in April if I remember correctly? and both KeSPA and eSF players were invited to participate in it. Back then, there was very little (if any at all) communication between KeSPA and GomTV as to KeSPA's participation in GSL; eSF players accepted the invitation to participate in OSL unconditionally. Most recently, GSL season 4 Code A qualifiers are announced. Literally a day after that announcement, KeSPA comes forward saying they are not feeling ready and their schedule can't accommodate participation in GSL due to PL and OSL commitments, as well as the whole transition thing. TL explodes with 'omg KeSPA powerplaying!' nonsense. We all know what happened next. I hope people will at least glance through this post before posting further nonsensical arguments. There's really a lot more to it than KeSPA trying to push eSF/Gom around and eSF/Gom 'protecting their freedom'. Also, to people saying KeSPA always 'fucked' with international esports - please check out earlier posts in this thread. That's really not true at all, if anything, it was Blizzard and ineptness of other tournament organizers who made sure foreign scene remained stagnant and virtually inexistant in the past. Also, the only reason KeSPA didn't do anything for SC2 so far, and didn't bring that game on board on launch was due to Blizzard's refusal to cooperate with them. edit: if anyone here thinks I'm a blind fanboy or whatever, it's easy enough to find TL posts, interviews, articles that will fully confirm what I said here. The truth is, the whole 'evil treacherous past of KeSPA' is massively exaggerated, and there really isn't much reason to believe that KeSPA is 'out to fuck with everyone' - not any more so than to believe that GomTV and eSF is trying to do the same, anyway. | ||
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Sandermatt
Switzerland1365 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:25 rebdomine wrote: How is the GSL screwed? The tournament is still going to proceed well even without the KeSPA players. And at this point, if any of them do qualify, it'd probably be what 3 or 4 players. ESF is ruining a whole tournament by pulling out half the players in it. That seems more like screwing a tournament to me than not letting players play in qualifiers. They are screwing it because Kespa is trying to make the OSL the only league where all of korea competes, while GSL would be a not fully complete league. | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:27 Sandermatt wrote: They are screwing it because Kespa is trying to make the OSL the only league where all of korea competes, while GSL would be a not fully complete league. Come and be a part of our show! But we're not going to be part of yours. Until next season. Because of uhh... scheduling conflicts. | ||
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Teddyman
Finland362 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:25 rebdomine wrote: How is the GSL screwed? The tournament is still going to proceed well even without the KeSPA players. And at this point, if any of them do qualify, it'd probably be what 3 or 4 players. ESF is ruining a whole tournament by pulling out half the players in it. That seems more like screwing a tournament to me than not letting players play in qualifiers. If Kespa had announced that they won't attend GSL the day the preliminary date was announced, we wouldn't have this problem. OSL was still in dual tournament phase and ESF players could have withdrawn before the league itself started. Kespa waited a week before announcing this and here we are. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5540 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: You have to look at the business standpoint to understand what Blizzard's actual intentions are. Try putting yourself in their shoes. Look at their previous history and then it becomes a little clearer. Not agreeing with it but I do understand it. Well, you tried to be clever, but looking at blizzard's history, they have been acting completely unlike blizzard for the past two years. | ||
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ChrysaliS_
United States261 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:25 rebdomine wrote: How is the GSL screwed? The tournament is still going to proceed well even without the KeSPA players. And at this point, if any of them do qualify, it'd probably be what 3 or 4 players. ESF is ruining a whole tournament by pulling out half the players in it. That seems more like screwing a tournament to me than not letting players play in qualifiers. It's not about this one OSL. It's a much bigger issue. If KeSPA is allowed to develop a stranglehold on the SC2 scene the way they did in BW, nobody wins, except for KeSPA. It is in both the players' and viewers' best interest for ESF to stand strong here, even if it means sacrificing one tournament. You could argue that sponsors would prefer the KeSPA-Reich model of BW, but GOM and foreign teams have both demonstrated that E-sports sponsorships can be successful without autocracy. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
Also, I won't be buying a GSL ticket if Kespa players aren't participating. WCS is the first GOM ticket I've purchased in many months. | ||
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Greenei
Germany1754 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:26 Salazarz wrote:bla nice try kespa employee. do you really think kespas reasons to not join gsl are 100% legit? like really? | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:34 Greenei wrote: nice try kespa employee. do you really think kespas reasons to not join gsl are 100% legit? like really? What reason do you have to think otherwise? | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
We can only dream... Like seriously, can't the leagues just set to rules as far as pausing/chatting/disqualification? There's like no reason for a governing body. | ||
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Femari
United States2900 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:36 Drowsy wrote: Wouldn't it be awesome if Kespa and ESF were just dismantled and there was no retarded governing body which controls whether or not players can participate in any given leagues and was at the discretion of each individual player and his team? We can only dream... ESF doesn't dictate where players go, it's a players union. | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:33 maybenexttime wrote: Well, you tried to be clever, but looking at blizzard's history, they have been acting completely unlike blizzard for the past two years. At least I have Starstruck on my side. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:26 Salazarz wrote: Here's a few major points people in this debate seem to be missing. About KeSPA "killing off" GomTV during Broodwar: That side of the story is basically completely made up by GomTV who were upset they couldn't get in on the revenues created by KeSPA, and the foreign fans hated on KeSPA over it because Gom did have English casters - something KeSPA did not. + Show Spoiler + During the period of time leading up to last Gom Classic season, the competition between KeSPA teams was at it's peak, it was definitely the era of biggest storylines and rivalries, and the pressure on every single player of KeSPA teams was ridiculous. That was also the time where individual players and coaches (NOT "evil men in suits from KeSPA") continually complained about having to play too many games every week, and not having enough prep time for the key leagues. It was also the time where coaches of several teams (again, NOT "evil men in suits from KeSPA") decided to prohibit their players from entering both MSL and OSL at the same time. In fact, quite a few players were not allowed to even participate in the preliminaries of individual leagues as they were needed to help the stars practice for their PL matches. It was not tyranny - it was what allowed KeSPA teams to show us the greatest games of Broodwar ever played. It's what made them so good. Enter Gom Classic league. You have players struggling with their already existing work-load, suddenly a new league attempts to enter the scene. Is it reasonable to expect players who already struggle with their schedule to be excited about it? Bear in mind that for the most likely candidates to win the top prizes, the tournament prizes aren't even the main part of their paycheck - their salaries are much higher than what winning a first place in the tournament is. It was a very bad time for GomTV to push their league in; also, they were basically trying to make money off a scene KeSPA had created from scratch, with no involvement of GomTV prior to that. It was Proleague, OSL and MSL who popularized the teams and players; it was KeSPA who created the fanbase and the infrastructure to support it. Gom literally just walked in and expected a slice of the pie, then got mad because it didn't work out that way. The complaints from Mr. Chae or anyone else on GomTV staff about "KeSPA having done this before" is 100% bitter nonsense, and you really shouldn't take them for granted. About KeSPA not entering GSL4 etc: It was never announced anywhere that KeSPA players will participate in the upcoming GSL season. Players did say in their interviews that they'd like to participate as soon as it's possible, KeSPA themselves said more than once that they are looking forward to integrating with the existing SC2 scene - but there were no concrete dates or tournaments named. Time and time again they have stated that Proleague is the most important thing for them, that the teams are still in transitional period and aren't feeling very confident about their abilities in SC2, that they need more time to adjust. WCS is a very special tournament created by Blizzard. It was planned for quite a long time, and KeSPA were aware from the get-go that they are expected to participate both in the open qualifier for it, and through KeSPA seeded invites. They play in this tournament. OSL is a tournament ran by OnGameNet (NOT KeSPA, it is a long-time partner of KeSPA but it's NOT the same thing, and it's NOT ran by the same people - their relationship is at most as close as that of GomTV and eSF, and they had their conflicts in the past). It was announced a veeeeeery long time in advance, back in April if I remember correctly? and both KeSPA and eSF players were invited to participate in it. Back then, there was very little (if any at all) communication between KeSPA and GomTV as to KeSPA's participation in GSL; eSF players accepted the invitation to participate in OSL unconditionally. Most recently, GSL season 4 Code A qualifiers are announced. Literally a day after that announcement, KeSPA comes forward saying they are not feeling ready and their schedule can't accommodate participation in GSL due to PL and OSL commitments, as well as the whole transition thing. TL explodes with 'omg KeSPA powerplaying!' nonsense. We all know what happened next. I hope people will at least glance through this post before posting further nonsensical arguments. There's really a lot more to it than KeSPA trying to push eSF/Gom around and eSF/Gom 'protecting their freedom'. Also, to people saying KeSPA always 'fucked' with international esports - please check out earlier posts in this thread. That's really not true at all, if anything, it was Blizzard and ineptness of other tournament organizers who made sure foreign scene remained stagnant and virtually inexistant in the past. Also, the only reason KeSPA didn't do anything for SC2 so far, and didn't bring that game on board on launch was due to Blizzard's refusal to cooperate with them. edit: if anyone here thinks I'm a blind fanboy or whatever, it's easy enough to find TL posts, interviews, articles that will fully confirm what I said here. The truth is, the whole 'evil treacherous past of KeSPA' is massively exaggerated, and there really isn't much reason to believe that KeSPA is 'out to fuck with everyone' - not any more so than to believe that GomTV and eSF is trying to do the same, anyway. Your 2nd paragraph of the spoilered section is a good description of what is currently happening with reversed roles xD That's true kespa never officially said they'd participate in GSL4. But they made everything to pretend they'd do it, without saying it. What I don't understand is the "but kespa made sports possible !" argument. Yeah, big thanks to them. That doesn't give them the right to do everything they want. | ||
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attackmoveftw
45 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:36 Drowsy wrote: Wouldn't it be awesome if Kespa and ESF were just dismantled and there was no retarded governing body which controls whether or not players can participate in any given leagues and was at the discretion of each individual player and his team? We can only dream... Like seriously, can't the leagues just set to rules as far as pausing/chatting/disqualification? There's like no reason for a governing body. Yea and let Blizzard run amok. | ||
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pencil_ethics
Australia174 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:36 Drowsy wrote: Wouldn't it be awesome if Kespa and ESF were just dismantled and there was no retarded governing body which controls whether or not players can participate in any given leagues and was at the discretion of each individual player and his team? We can only dream... You do realise this decision to boycott the OSL was made by the players participating in it, right? In fact it was supported by the majority of all players and staff on all the eSF teams. On the other hand, KeSPA players have no say in this at all. | ||
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