On August 24 2012 04:19 Zandar wrote: It's time the foreign scene organises a Kespa boycot.
They were the dictator of Broodwar, don't let them become that in SC2 too. They need to learn it's not just about them anymore.
I love watching Jaedong but I won't anymore until he either leaves Kespa or Kespa starts to behave in the best interest of SC2 and the players, instead of purely focus on what's best for Kespa. I can't be a fan of them or their players when they are like that.
No. What is the "best interest of SC2?" This is just some nebulous idea you conjured up to sound righteous. By best interest of SC2, do you mean lining Blizzard's pockets with cash? Or do you mean a sustainable e-sports scene based around the Starcraft franchise, which KeSPA has built up over 12 years leading to very respectable salaries via team sponsorship?
If they don't want to come to this GSL, big fucking deal? You can see them in other leagues for now.
Not like a boycott will change anything... The foreign scene hasn't ever given anything of substance to Kespa so what's a boycott gonna do. Why would KT or SKT ever consider sending Flash or Bisu aboard unless they had to? That's like asking the NFL to advertise in China or Europe.
I wonder if the companies that only operate in korea will drop the teams eventually? It seems like SC2 will never be as big as BW in korea and good will/commercial interest lies mostly with international brands and companies.
I doubt they will drop teams completely in the next few years. It's such a good system they got set up. I bet they might switch to LoL if SC2 really fails or some other game but I feel like they will at least try that before disbanding all the infrastructure.
Or they can just switch back to Brood War as Brood War servers can be hosted by other means than B.net.
I'm sure that many players still prefer that game.
How stupid would KeSPA look for going back to a game they've pronounced as "the past" though? BW was dying in Korea before OGN/KeSPA were involved with SC2, the business was not sustainable and they couldn't find sponsors for their teams and tournaments. I can't imagine it's going to be doing any better than it was before if they tried switching back to BW.
No, BW have many more viewers than SC2 in Korea. Last season's PL stadium was always filled to the max while this season, there are many empty seats. And the OSL have always been packed. Comparing to what Gom is getting, OGN have gotten way more viewers. And the Chinese have had 10 million views on the stream for the Jin Air OSL finals.
Then why is KeSPA/OGN switching from Brood War in the first place?
Mainly sponsors. They can't get any for the teams (look at how long Team 8 has been "Team 8" rather than a sponsored team.
At the end of the day it wouldn't matter if they could fill a 100k seat stadium for every finals, because the sport wouldn't be generating enough money to pay for the production, salaries, prizes, etc.
On August 24 2012 05:05 densha wrote: Does anyone know what kind of power Blizzard really has? Obviously they can just block IPs or accounts, but there's almost no chance that they'd even threaten to do that, right? I really hope they can actually force Kespa to reverse this decision because someone needs to police Kespa (ideally it should be a players union...).
I don't think Blizzard has power to do anything impactful. IPs are already granted. And they have been on losing side of the battle against Kespa for years.
Blizzard owns the rights to the game. They don't let tournaments over a certain size (I think $20,000 or something) take place without their say. So yeah they could stop Kespa running SC2. I doubt they will. But they clearly arent happy about it.
But isn't OGN already got 2 years contract or something, so if they want to shut OSL down, they need to wait for 2 years.
I obviously have no idea what contract OGN has or how it relates to GSL (which it may do). But there will also be some Terms & Conditions of all the various contracts to take into account. Having said that I am sure Kespa have paid some people a lot of money to write their contracts and I would be very surprised if Blizzard do anything other than say "Oh please play nice!"
I guess we just have to wait and see how it all plays out.
Actually also I've just remembered that this GSL will have the finals at IPL. And Kespa have an exclusivity agreement with MLG for international tournaments iirc. So that could be a part of it.
On August 24 2012 04:19 Zandar wrote: It's time the foreign scene organises a Kespa boycot.
They were the dictator of Broodwar, don't let them become that in SC2 too. They need to learn it's not just about them anymore.
I love watching Jaedong but I won't anymore until he either leaves Kespa or Kespa starts to behave in the best interest of SC2 and the players, instead of purely focus on what's best for Kespa. I can't be a fan of them or their players when they are like that.
No. What is the "best interest of SC2?" This is just some nebulous idea you conjured up to sound righteous. By best interest of SC2, do you mean lining Blizzard's pockets with cash? Or do you mean a sustainable e-sports scene based around the Starcraft franchise, which KeSPA has built up over 12 years leading to very respectable salaries via team sponsorship?
If they don't want to come to this GSL, big fucking deal? You can see them in other leagues for now.
Not like a boycott will change anything... The foreign scene hasn't ever given anything of substance to Kespa so what's a boycott gonna do. Why would KT or SKT ever consider sending Flash or Bisu aboard unless they had to? That's like asking the NFL to advertise in China or Europe.
I wonder if the companies that only operate in korea will drop the teams eventually? It seems like SC2 will never be as big as BW in korea and good will/commercial interest lies mostly with international brands and companies.
I doubt they will drop teams completely in the next few years. It's such a good system they got set up. I bet they might switch to LoL if SC2 really fails or some other game but I feel like they will at least try that before disbanding all the infrastructure.
Or they can just switch back to Brood War as Brood War servers can be hosted by other means than B.net.
I'm sure that many players still prefer that game.
How stupid would KeSPA look for going back to a game they've pronounced as "the past" though? BW was dying in Korea before OGN/KeSPA were involved with SC2, the business was not sustainable and they couldn't find sponsors for their teams and tournaments. I can't imagine it's going to be doing any better than it was before if they tried switching back to BW.
No, BW have many more viewers than SC2 in Korea. Last season's PL stadium was always filled to the max while this season, there are many empty seats. And the OSL have always been packed. Comparing to what Gom is getting, OGN have gotten way more viewers. And the Chinese have had 10 million views on the stream for the Jin Air OSL finals.
Then why is KeSPA/OGN switching from Brood War in the first place?
Because of Blizzard's intervention.
Mike M said "Well yeah we thanks Brood War and Kespa for their pioneering in the esport world but now it is time to switch to StarCraft 2."
On August 24 2012 04:10 ragz_gt wrote: Saying KeSPA have no control over who OGN invites is three layers beyond dumb. It's like saying "my wife have no control over what I spend money on".
maybe you can explain their relationship to me, as i've said i dont know what kind of relationship they have. so please do explain how they're tied and how kespa is obligated to act on behalf of ogn by giving gsl their players. your wife analogy doesn't help.
OGN is sitting at the Kespa board, theirfore infuincing their decisions. OGN owns the broadcasting rights to OSL, Kespa claimed the rights to Proleague a few years ago and then sold them to a third party. Kespa "owns" all BW players.
Kespa needs OGN to broadcast the OSL/Proleague. Kespa players needs Kespa's persmission to participate in the OSL/Proleague. Technically OGN could broadcast SC2 without Kespa involvement, but then they would wave goodbye to Flash etc. In practice, Kespa and OGN is in the same boat for now.
Could you please clarify the relationship between Kespa and the individual players? Do the players actually have some kind of a contract with Kespa or is it just that the teams have deals with Kespa?
Kespa (Korean e-Sports Association) is controlled by the BW team sponsors and a few other stakeholders (like OGN). All contracted players (some b-teamers might not be contracted) must get permission both from the team owners and Kespa to play in any BW/SC2 tournament. They are also obliged to play in a league if their team wants them to.
Note that this is a different setup from the west. Western teams are usually merely sponsored by a certain company, enjoying some kind of autonomy. In Korea the financial backer owns the team, therefore calling all the shots.
Nice, thanks that clears a lot of it. So in the West, the owners are usually not that interested in the decisions that their teams make (yet) but in Korea they have actually set up an association to control all of that. I would also imagine that it would be very difficult to set up a new professional team in Korea that is completely disconnected from Kespa because that would make it very difficult to gain any sponsors.
I guess that all that is left to the players if they wish to go against the Kespa decision of not participating in GSL is to go completely teamless and then participate in GSL (which is probably not a great idea for 95/100 players).
Not quite but close. Western teams are independent entities often having contracts with multiple sponsors. Sponsors gets advertising space/player endorsements in exchange for cash/hardware/gear. The team-player contracts in turn states that players need to wear team gear when attending tournaments etc, but they rarely stipulate that a player have to ask for permission before participating in a tournament.
Their are exceptions to the rule, FXO has a structure more similair to Kespa teams and some larger teams like EG have contracts that enable them to forbid players to attend certain events.
Yes, if they get released from their team they could probably attend the GSL or join a foreign team, might not be able to join a GSTL team.
On August 24 2012 04:55 Kilby wrote: Nice, thanks that clears a lot of it. So in the West, the owners are usually not that interested in the decisions that their teams make (yet) but in Korea they have actually set up an association to control all of that. I would also imagine that it would be very difficult to set up a new professional team in Korea that is completely disconnected from Kespa because that would make it very difficult to gain any sponsors.
I guess that all that is left to the players if they wish to go against the Kespa decision of not participating in GSL is to go completely teamless and then participate in GSL (which is probably not a great idea for 95/100 players).
Or if players take action and take some power back. For example, Flash and Jaedong to sign up for Code A. What KeSPA gonna do? Fire them? But it won't work without organization (player's union) and top players obviously.
Ezpz, Kespa/team owners simply cease salary payments and sues disobedient players for breach of contract.
I have seriously never seen anyone ever say anything good about Kespa. I don't know enough to form a real opinion, but from everything I've heard they sound kinda crappy.
On August 24 2012 05:26 itiswhatitis wrote: I have seriously never seen anyone ever say anything good about Kespa. I don't know enough to form a real opinion, but from everything I've heard they sound kinda crappy.
If it wasn't for them to be the sole organization for BW, I personally wouldn't exactly deal with them.
Really one of the reasons why BW is dead in the foreign world is attributed by them. At the original GSL leagues, the teams withdrew from the only english commentated BW league in S.Korea that features top level play.
For our previous GSL Season 3 Code A qualifiers, we had inquired to KeSPA if their players would be allowed to participate and at the time, as scheduling was very difficult, KeSPA was not able to accommodate us. We also felt that many teams and players were still unprepared and concluded that we would request participation for the upcoming GSL Season 4.
Today, we have received an official response from KeSPA, stating that their players will, once again, not participate in the GSL Season 4 Code A qualifiers.
We are deeply sorry to all fans who have looked forward to seeing the Korean eSports scene work together in harmony. Also, GOMTV would like to express their regret towards KeSPA’s reluctance to participate.
Well that sucks. I hope that they will come around for the next GSL. Does this affect how you watch the GSL at all? For me it does as I don't really care much about Code A so I will still watch Code S religiously. I really do hope to see them in here soon though. I like GOM's slightly nasty tone to the entire thing as well.
EDIT: Uh oh, big papa Blizzard might be stepping in here...
--A staff from Blizzard Korea also said “We are disconcerted by KeSPA’s sudden announcement. We will look over it and make an announcement by tomorrow”.--
Oh, that's interesting. Blizzard's getting involved. They've normally stayed out of this kind of drama.
Who didn't see this coming with how they acted throughout BroodWar. They killed the GOM tournament back then. They basically were content with most of the players being essentially slaves to team houses. Their rules about games that just seemed ridiculous (gg rules ect).
Also, I don't even think Blizzard can stop them, because they control the very best talent pool inside gaming and the richest teams. Even if Blizzard doesn't allow them to hold a tournament, I think KESPA could find a way to get around it (similar to BW).
Kinda funny too that they're teamed up with MLG as well =P
On August 23 2012 23:06 nokz88 wrote: Somehow, someway KeSPA gets more support and less flak in TeamLiquid, a foreign forum, than in Korea itself. Go figure.
It doesn't get shadier than this folks. Why are some of you defending this asshole move?
What's the reaction in the Korean community about this?
As of now:
PlayXP(pro-Gom forums): First 15 posts about the issue - 14 negative / 1 neutral Fomos(pro-KeSPA forums): First 10 posts - 8 negative / 2 neutral Pgr: 7 posts - 6 negative / 1 positive
Seems like in Korea even KeSPA fanboys recognize an asshole move when they see it. Please do the same will ya?
On August 23 2012 23:06 nokz88 wrote: Somehow, someway KeSPA gets more support and less flak in TeamLiquid, a foreign forum, than in Korea itself. Go figure.
It doesn't get shadier than this folks. Why are some of you defending this asshole move?
What's the reaction in the Korean community about this?
As of now:
PlayXP(pro-Gom forums): First 15 posts about the issue - 14 negative / 1 neutral Fomos(pro-KeSPA forums): First 10 posts - 8 negative / 2 neutral Pgr: 7 posts - 6 negative / 1 positive
Seems like in Korea even KeSPA fanboys recognize an asshole move when they see it. Please do the same will ya?
Fomos is rather pro-BW
Pretty much no one in korea ever likes kespa
Also pgr21 has exploded with major uproar
I think the players and teams know that GOM is an organization that protects and cares about it's people where as KESPA makes money and that is the end of the story. I wish KESPA would lighten up, and they both could cooperate, but I do see the business move from KESPA, they know based off WCS that their players will most likely be better in the end and they can get rid of GOM, and the few players they want to take from GSL teams they probably could.
On August 23 2012 23:06 nokz88 wrote: Somehow, someway KeSPA gets more support and less flak in TeamLiquid, a foreign forum, than in Korea itself. Go figure.
It doesn't get shadier than this folks. Why are some of you defending this asshole move?
What's the reaction in the Korean community about this?
As of now:
PlayXP(pro-Gom forums): First 15 posts about the issue - 14 negative / 1 neutral Fomos(pro-KeSPA forums): First 10 posts - 8 negative / 2 neutral Pgr: 7 posts - 6 negative / 1 positive
Seems like in Korea even KeSPA fanboys recognize an asshole move when they see it. Please do the same will ya?
Fomos is rather pro-BW
Pretty much no one in korea ever likes kespa
Also pgr21 has exploded with major uproar
Wouldn't it be something if the korean esports fans throw a shitstorm similar to our reddit ones, where the major kespa companies start getting mass complaints and losing mass customers because of kespas shenanigans? I would cry tears of joy.
Eddit: Not that shit storms are good, most of the ones and witch hunts have just been awful for the community, but something that hurts an organization like KESPA and shows them that they don't have the power, the people do, I think would be an amazing thing.
For our previous GSL Season 3 Code A qualifiers, we had inquired to KeSPA if their players would be allowed to participate and at the time, as scheduling was very difficult, KeSPA was not able to accommodate us. We also felt that many teams and players were still unprepared and concluded that we would request participation for the upcoming GSL Season 4.
Today, we have received an official response from KeSPA, stating that their players will, once again, not participate in the GSL Season 4 Code A qualifiers.
We are deeply sorry to all fans who have looked forward to seeing the Korean eSports scene work together in harmony. Also, GOMTV would like to express their regret towards KeSPA’s reluctance to participate.
Well that sucks. I hope that they will come around for the next GSL. Does this affect how you watch the GSL at all? For me it does as I don't really care much about Code A so I will still watch Code S religiously. I really do hope to see them in here soon though. I like GOM's slightly nasty tone to the entire thing as well.
EDIT: Uh oh, big papa Blizzard might be stepping in here...
--A staff from Blizzard Korea also said “We are disconcerted by KeSPA’s sudden announcement. We will look over it and make an announcement by tomorrow”.--
Oh, that's interesting. Blizzard's getting involved. They've normally stayed out of this kind of drama.
Who didn't see this coming with how they acted throughout BroodWar. They killed the GOM tournament back then. They basically were content with most of the players being essentially slaves to team houses. Their rules about games that just seemed ridiculous (gg rules ect).
Also, I don't even think Blizzard can stop them, because they control the very best talent pool inside gaming and the richest teams. Even if Blizzard doesn't allow them to hold a tournament, I think KESPA could find a way to get around it (similar to BW).
Kinda funny too that they're teamed up with MLG as well =P
I dont think they could get around it, they would be openly pirating a game as a major corporation.
Its the biggest retard move by kespa, when pretty much all there players stated a desire to play, roro was especially annoyed in his iview
hopefully blizzard intervene and let the kespa players play.
wouldn't actually surprise me if it was down to the fact gom wouldn't seed some players into code s or switch the format up to match osl or something, as 1 season code A is kinda meh when some of them are easily code S ro/16/32 quality.
On August 24 2012 05:57 Fleuria wrote: Its the biggest retard move by kespa, when pretty much all there players stated a desire to play, roro was especially annoyed in his iview
hopefully blizzard intervene and let the kespa players play.
wouldn't actually surprise me if it was down to the fact gom wouldn't seed some players into code s or switch the format up to match osl or something, as 1 season code A is kinda meh when some of them are easily code S ro/16/32 quality.
GOM supposedly offered two Code S seeds, two up-n-down seeds, and four Code A seeds. Kespa just doesn't want GOM to survive longterm and denying the Kespa v. GOM storyline is one way to start doing that.
EPT
