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On August 23 2012 21:02 achan1058 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 21:01 Salazarz wrote:
It really boggles my mind how everyone keeps attacking KeSPA for being this evil corporation out to make money and destroy the scene with their atrocities. They are literally the most successful e-sports association ever created; they are the ones who made e-sports on TV (even if just in one country), and massive live e-sports events a norm. Starcraft 2 had nearly 3 years without their 'evil' and with plenty of opportunities to draw on their experiences before KeSPA was allowed to step in - and what do you see? There isn't a single team or organization that is anywhere remotely as influential or well-structured as the KeSPA leagues are. IF it comes down to a business competition between KeSPA and GOM and GOM ends up losing it, they have no one but themselves to blame - even though I don't believe that's what is happening.
At the end of the day, KeSPA know that the foreign market and external events are a huge opportunity for them, they have said so time and time again, and there really is no reason to question that. They are doing things their own way, in a fashion that some might not like - but there is no denying that it's KeSPA who created the most successful teams, the most talented players, and the most incredible games of Starcraft we have ever seen. For all the KeSPA anti-fans, there's no denying that current SC2 superstars were raised by KeSPA, and it's quite likely that it will be KeSPA players who will surpass them.
You can hate KeSPA all you want, but the fact is it's them who have created the most spectacular viewer experiences to date, and it's a little short-sighted to call them out like this just because they make a decision you disagree with (even though that decision actually makes perfect sense and you're just calling them out because OMG EVIL bandwagon).
Btw, do any of you seriously believe that IPL, MLG, Dreamhack, GOM or any other e-sports entity out there is doing what they do for their 'love of e-sports'? Please. They are all businesses, and they are in it for their own money, nothing else. At least KeSPA is directly related to the teams they nurture, and their success is directly correlated with the success of these teams. MLG couldn't care less about any of the players or teams that appear there, they'd ditch SC2 entirely as soon as it stopped being profitable, whereas KeSPA actually has a vested interest in keeping the scene and their teams alive. You can say the same about Microsoft. It did not changed the fact that they killed Netscape.
What's your point?
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On August 23 2012 20:58 Michaels wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 20:55 mrtomjones wrote:On August 23 2012 20:50 ChoiSulli wrote:On August 23 2012 20:34 Roggay wrote:On August 23 2012 20:32 xrapture wrote:On August 23 2012 20:25 TrainSamurai wrote:This is just ANOTHER CASE OF GOM wanting to make money off KeSPA player's image without paying jackshit in comparison. On August 23 2012 20:25 Dodgin wrote:On August 23 2012 20:23 TrainSamurai wrote:On August 23 2012 20:22 Dodgin wrote:On August 23 2012 20:21 TrainSamurai wrote:
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Don't give me that weak sauce argument. Morally speaking PAY the PLAYERS some SALARY. Er, they get paid for participating in GSL. Does that not count? Every single player in each GSL season gets paid. Every KeSPA player gets housing and food supplied. They don't always make it into the OSL but KeSPA still gives some pittance. GOM must pay ALL of them SOMETHING. GOM is just a tournament organizer though, it's not up to them to give players salary. That's what the teams are for. If you're talking about an appearance fee to play in GSL then that's a lot different than salary. Maybe Flash does deserve an appearance fee but as far as I know WCG never paid him to be in WCG and he did that willingly. BINGO. They all deserve a fee for even playing. We revolted under KeSPA to get those fees. Yea, I don't know why Gom expects Kespa players to play in their amateur league without compensation. That's like expecting Lebron James to make an appearance at a college practice for free. Except their "amateur" league is the equivalent of the NBA right now... right? Maybe its the NBA but its the NBA with replacement players. KESPA has the most talented RTS players and they also broadcast on TV with OGN. Everyone can see how GOM is getting shafted in this but this is business. Unless they merge their companies or come up with some kind of revenue sharing scheme they will always be competitors. Also while most of us dont like KESPA, we will still side with KESPA, its like having a family member thats a dick to everyone but we are still going to have his back. Thats how KESPA is to us BW fans and there is a lot of those in Korea. So while maybe foreigners are upset, I think the majority of people in Korea that arent exclusive SC2 fans are happy with this power play as am I. I can see its making a lot of SC2 fans upset because KESPA is coming in and basically trying to replace GOM. You guys have every right to be upset, we were to when SC2 came and replaced BW. Not even a good comparison dude. SC2 did not try to push BW out. Blizzard didn't make the game so that BW could die. Funny how you side with a company who treats you the viewer like crap over one who caters to people who watch them. You could be hoping for both leagues to do well and SC2 to flourish because of that but you hope for it to die? If Kespa gets their way SC2 will suffer. 240p stream isnt catering ppl
They have an HD stream and have gone out of their way to make many things viewable, often just for foreign fans. They have made shows specifically for us, invited our top players to play in their league, and provided us with good content and a very consistent product. The low quality stream is to encourage you to support them which is a business decision and not helpful to the scene perhaps but it does not hinder it either.
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On August 23 2012 21:03 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 21:02 achan1058 wrote:On August 23 2012 21:01 Salazarz wrote:
It really boggles my mind how everyone keeps attacking KeSPA for being this evil corporation out to make money and destroy the scene with their atrocities. They are literally the most successful e-sports association ever created; they are the ones who made e-sports on TV (even if just in one country), and massive live e-sports events a norm. Starcraft 2 had nearly 3 years without their 'evil' and with plenty of opportunities to draw on their experiences before KeSPA was allowed to step in - and what do you see? There isn't a single team or organization that is anywhere remotely as influential or well-structured as the KeSPA leagues are. IF it comes down to a business competition between KeSPA and GOM and GOM ends up losing it, they have no one but themselves to blame - even though I don't believe that's what is happening.
At the end of the day, KeSPA know that the foreign market and external events are a huge opportunity for them, they have said so time and time again, and there really is no reason to question that. They are doing things their own way, in a fashion that some might not like - but there is no denying that it's KeSPA who created the most successful teams, the most talented players, and the most incredible games of Starcraft we have ever seen. For all the KeSPA anti-fans, there's no denying that current SC2 superstars were raised by KeSPA, and it's quite likely that it will be KeSPA players who will surpass them.
You can hate KeSPA all you want, but the fact is it's them who have created the most spectacular viewer experiences to date, and it's a little short-sighted to call them out like this just because they make a decision you disagree with (even though that decision actually makes perfect sense and you're just calling them out because OMG EVIL bandwagon).
Btw, do any of you seriously believe that IPL, MLG, Dreamhack, GOM or any other e-sports entity out there is doing what they do for their 'love of e-sports'? Please. They are all businesses, and they are in it for their own money, nothing else. At least KeSPA is directly related to the teams they nurture, and their success is directly correlated with the success of these teams. MLG couldn't care less about any of the players or teams that appear there, they'd ditch SC2 entirely as soon as it stopped being profitable, whereas KeSPA actually has a vested interest in keeping the scene and their teams alive. You can say the same about Microsoft. It did not changed the fact that they killed Netscape. What's your point? They both engaged in anti-competitive practices, regardless of whatever good deeds they have done.
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Not surprised that the coaches made this decision. From what I know, this season of OSL could have been worse compared to what we have now.
Oh speaking of which, lets make things clear. KeSPA, in this case, pretty much refers to the coaches of the teams, not the organization called KeSPA. These coaches discuss and make their decisions, then report to the referee and others at a tournament (i.e. Preliminaries). I'm going to assume that similar thing happened here.
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On August 23 2012 21:04 achan1058 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 21:03 Salazarz wrote:On August 23 2012 21:02 achan1058 wrote:On August 23 2012 21:01 Salazarz wrote:
It really boggles my mind how everyone keeps attacking KeSPA for being this evil corporation out to make money and destroy the scene with their atrocities. They are literally the most successful e-sports association ever created; they are the ones who made e-sports on TV (even if just in one country), and massive live e-sports events a norm. Starcraft 2 had nearly 3 years without their 'evil' and with plenty of opportunities to draw on their experiences before KeSPA was allowed to step in - and what do you see? There isn't a single team or organization that is anywhere remotely as influential or well-structured as the KeSPA leagues are. IF it comes down to a business competition between KeSPA and GOM and GOM ends up losing it, they have no one but themselves to blame - even though I don't believe that's what is happening.
At the end of the day, KeSPA know that the foreign market and external events are a huge opportunity for them, they have said so time and time again, and there really is no reason to question that. They are doing things their own way, in a fashion that some might not like - but there is no denying that it's KeSPA who created the most successful teams, the most talented players, and the most incredible games of Starcraft we have ever seen. For all the KeSPA anti-fans, there's no denying that current SC2 superstars were raised by KeSPA, and it's quite likely that it will be KeSPA players who will surpass them.
You can hate KeSPA all you want, but the fact is it's them who have created the most spectacular viewer experiences to date, and it's a little short-sighted to call them out like this just because they make a decision you disagree with (even though that decision actually makes perfect sense and you're just calling them out because OMG EVIL bandwagon).
Btw, do any of you seriously believe that IPL, MLG, Dreamhack, GOM or any other e-sports entity out there is doing what they do for their 'love of e-sports'? Please. They are all businesses, and they are in it for their own money, nothing else. At least KeSPA is directly related to the teams they nurture, and their success is directly correlated with the success of these teams. MLG couldn't care less about any of the players or teams that appear there, they'd ditch SC2 entirely as soon as it stopped being profitable, whereas KeSPA actually has a vested interest in keeping the scene and their teams alive. You can say the same about Microsoft. It did not changed the fact that they killed Netscape. What's your point? They both engaged in anti-competitive practices, regardless of whatever good deeds they have done.
Again, what's your point?
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On August 23 2012 20:46 Daray wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 20:43 Ragnarork wrote:
I'm a bit disappointed as a fan (though I don't pretend to know the very low-level implications of all of this), and especially because we do see GOM players in the OSL....
Why not have Kespa players in GSL then... ? Because KeSPA owns everything and are taking advantage of it and the players can't do anything especially now that they can't even leave teams (though they probably wouldn't anyway but still). On the other hand GOM doesn't own the players, the teams do and they obviously want to participate in as many tournaments as they can. GOM apparently gave up the exclusive rights to sc2 a year early so that sc2 and esports would move forward in Korea and KeSPA is shitting on them big time (AGAIN!)
That is the PROBLEM."GOM doesn't own the players, the teams do and they obviously want to participate in as many tournaments as they can".
GOM unable to manage gsl players,they participate too many tournaments.No one wants to watch his nation's players raped a gain and again and again by korean players.Nations needs their own tournaments,own hero,not another "korean got all money ".it's the only way sc2 how to become a real international sports like soccer or basketball.
Maybe some fans feel bad now,but kespa is creating the future of sc2.
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On August 23 2012 21:04 supernovamaniac wrote:
Not surprised that the coaches made this decision. From what I know, this season of OSL could have been worse compared to what we have now.
Oh speaking of which, lets make things clear. KeSPA, in this case, pretty much refers to the coaches of the teams, not the organization called KeSPA. These coaches discuss and make their decisions, then report to the referee and others at a tournament (i.e. Preliminaries). I'm going to assume that similar thing happened here.
I'd be pretty disappointed if BoxeR, Clide, Ryu Won etc played any role in this.
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On August 23 2012 21:01 Salazarz wrote:
It really boggles my mind how everyone keeps attacking KeSPA for being this evil corporation out to make money and destroy the scene with their atrocities. They are literally the most successful e-sports association ever created; they are the ones who made e-sports on TV (even if just in one country), and massive live e-sports events a norm. Starcraft 2 had nearly 3 years without their 'evil' and with plenty of opportunities to draw on their experiences before KeSPA was allowed to step in - and what do you see? There isn't a single team or organization that is anywhere remotely as influential or well-structured as the KeSPA leagues are. IF it comes down to a business competition between KeSPA and GOM and GOM ends up losing it, they have no one but themselves to blame - even though I don't believe that's what is happening.
BW over 10 years history while being on TV and SC2 2 years and only being streamed.
KeSPA runs a monopoly while GOM doesn't so there's really no competition, in that you are right.
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On August 23 2012 20:58 TrainSamurai wrote:
Figure of speech idiot. We as in the BW pro scene.
lol you can't say "we" and take credit for something you had absolutely no part in. You weren't part of the "fight" in any practical sense.
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On August 23 2012 21:06 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 21:04 supernovamaniac wrote:
Not surprised that the coaches made this decision. From what I know, this season of OSL could have been worse compared to what we have now.
Oh speaking of which, lets make things clear. KeSPA, in this case, pretty much refers to the coaches of the teams, not the organization called KeSPA. These coaches discuss and make their decisions, then report to the referee and others at a tournament (i.e. Preliminaries). I'm going to assume that similar thing happened here. I'd be pretty disappointed if BoxeR, Clide, Ryu Won etc played any role in this.
I'm pretty sure BoxeR, as well as other coaches, weren't involved in it since their job is to coach the players, not to lead the team. I was merely referring to the head coaches, and I'm pretty sure everyone had different thoughts on the matter before making the decision.
At this point, I'm just going to wait to see what KeSPA is going to say. No need for me to get into some shit-storm until I know what's happening from both sides.
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On August 23 2012 20:50 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 20:48 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 23 2012 20:42 imMUTAble787 wrote:
Maybe someone could clue me in, but what exactly have the KeSPA players accomplished in SC2 that warrants any sort of appearance fee ? This. As of now, there's not a single reason kespa or kespa players should receive any more money than regular Code A participants. It would be unfair to non-kespa Code A players if Gom did so. Yea, let's ignore the fact that Gom will get a lot more subscriptions if Kespa players were in the GSL or that their ratings would be higher than any other "Code A participant" could make them.
Code A is a tournament. Prizes should be distributed on a scale of tournament placement, not on a scale of popularity. If including Kespa players will add to Gom's viewership, this should reflect in the tournament prizes, not in any direct payment to popular players/team/whatever Kespa is (in other words, more popularity=prizes go up, not more popularity=popularity gets rewarded with direct payment). If Idra (or any popular foreigner) got seeded into Code A, do you think it would be fair for him to receive more money from Gom than the Code S player who placed 4th (for example)?
Kespa is exercising control over their players to, I believe, wipe out Gom in the coming months/year. Exercising control over their players is horrible for us viewers because we want to see everyone playing together. We want all Gom players playing in the Kespa tournament and we want all Kespa players playing in the Gom tournament, not this manipulative bullshit.
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I´d like a statement from KESPA before concluding anything..
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On August 23 2012 21:07 Daray wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 21:01 Salazarz wrote:
It really boggles my mind how everyone keeps attacking KeSPA for being this evil corporation out to make money and destroy the scene with their atrocities. They are literally the most successful e-sports association ever created; they are the ones who made e-sports on TV (even if just in one country), and massive live e-sports events a norm. Starcraft 2 had nearly 3 years without their 'evil' and with plenty of opportunities to draw on their experiences before KeSPA was allowed to step in - and what do you see? There isn't a single team or organization that is anywhere remotely as influential or well-structured as the KeSPA leagues are. IF it comes down to a business competition between KeSPA and GOM and GOM ends up losing it, they have no one but themselves to blame - even though I don't believe that's what is happening.
BW over 10 years history while being on TV and SC2 2 years and only being streamed. KeSPA runs a monopoly while GOM doesn't so there's really no competition, in that you are right.
KeSPA didn't "run a monopoly" - they built EVERYTHING from grounds up and did something no one else managed to do, before them nor after them. Considering the success of KeSPA, you'd think someone would go and replicate their success with SC2 - but nobody even really tried, either for the lack of effort, or the lack of interest in it. Regardless of the reasons, KeSPA are the ones with the experience and savvy to make something like that happen. Why is it a bad thing?
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The good thing? If Korean esport scene shits up, the foreign will get a boost, eliminating the huge competition for tournaments prise money, and we will get more exposure to Europe, instead of Korea.
The bad thing? We will not see BW stars, 90% of foreigner audience doesn`t care about anyways.
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When I first saw the title, I thought that the GSL wouldn't allow Kespa players seeded. But then I thought, wait, isn't this what Kespa would initiate?
I was correct.
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On August 23 2012 21:09 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 21:07 Daray wrote:On August 23 2012 21:01 Salazarz wrote:
It really boggles my mind how everyone keeps attacking KeSPA for being this evil corporation out to make money and destroy the scene with their atrocities. They are literally the most successful e-sports association ever created; they are the ones who made e-sports on TV (even if just in one country), and massive live e-sports events a norm. Starcraft 2 had nearly 3 years without their 'evil' and with plenty of opportunities to draw on their experiences before KeSPA was allowed to step in - and what do you see? There isn't a single team or organization that is anywhere remotely as influential or well-structured as the KeSPA leagues are. IF it comes down to a business competition between KeSPA and GOM and GOM ends up losing it, they have no one but themselves to blame - even though I don't believe that's what is happening.
BW over 10 years history while being on TV and SC2 2 years and only being streamed. KeSPA runs a monopoly while GOM doesn't so there's really no competition, in that you are right. KeSPA didn't "run a monopoly" - they built EVERYTHING from grounds up and did something no one else managed to do, before them nor after them. Considering the success of KeSPA, you'd think someone would go and replicate their success with SC2 - but nobody even really tried, either for the lack of effort, or the lack of interest in it. Regardless of the reasons, KeSPA are the ones with the experience and savvy to make something like that happen. Why is it a bad thing? That is still a monopoly, regardless on what happened in history. The law should not care about what good deeds they did in the past.
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On August 23 2012 21:11 achan1058 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 21:09 Salazarz wrote:On August 23 2012 21:07 Daray wrote:On August 23 2012 21:01 Salazarz wrote:
It really boggles my mind how everyone keeps attacking KeSPA for being this evil corporation out to make money and destroy the scene with their atrocities. They are literally the most successful e-sports association ever created; they are the ones who made e-sports on TV (even if just in one country), and massive live e-sports events a norm. Starcraft 2 had nearly 3 years without their 'evil' and with plenty of opportunities to draw on their experiences before KeSPA was allowed to step in - and what do you see? There isn't a single team or organization that is anywhere remotely as influential or well-structured as the KeSPA leagues are. IF it comes down to a business competition between KeSPA and GOM and GOM ends up losing it, they have no one but themselves to blame - even though I don't believe that's what is happening.
BW over 10 years history while being on TV and SC2 2 years and only being streamed. KeSPA runs a monopoly while GOM doesn't so there's really no competition, in that you are right. KeSPA didn't "run a monopoly" - they built EVERYTHING from grounds up and did something no one else managed to do, before them nor after them. Considering the success of KeSPA, you'd think someone would go and replicate their success with SC2 - but nobody even really tried, either for the lack of effort, or the lack of interest in it. Regardless of the reasons, KeSPA are the ones with the experience and savvy to make something like that happen. Why is it a bad thing? That is still a monopoly, regardless on what happened in history. The law should not care about what good deeds they did in the past.
I'm sorry, I am not versed enough in international or Korean laws to discuss whether an organization like KeSPA is legitimate or not. I'm pretty sure you aren't, either - so what the hell is your point?
edit: although, considering the way global sports federations operate (lol FIFA), I'm pretty sure you're way off.
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On August 23 2012 21:09 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 21:07 Daray wrote:On August 23 2012 21:01 Salazarz wrote:
It really boggles my mind how everyone keeps attacking KeSPA for being this evil corporation out to make money and destroy the scene with their atrocities. They are literally the most successful e-sports association ever created; they are the ones who made e-sports on TV (even if just in one country), and massive live e-sports events a norm. Starcraft 2 had nearly 3 years without their 'evil' and with plenty of opportunities to draw on their experiences before KeSPA was allowed to step in - and what do you see? There isn't a single team or organization that is anywhere remotely as influential or well-structured as the KeSPA leagues are. IF it comes down to a business competition between KeSPA and GOM and GOM ends up losing it, they have no one but themselves to blame - even though I don't believe that's what is happening.
BW over 10 years history while being on TV and SC2 2 years and only being streamed. KeSPA runs a monopoly while GOM doesn't so there's really no competition, in that you are right. KeSPA didn't "run a monopoly" - they built EVERYTHING from grounds up and did something no one else managed to do, before them nor after them. Considering the success of KeSPA, you'd think someone would go and replicate their success with SC2 - but nobody even really tried, either for the lack of effort, or the lack of interest in it. Regardless of the reasons, KeSPA are the ones with the experience and savvy to make something like that happen. Why is it a bad thing?
They did run a monopoly in BW, did they not? They had complete control of the factors needed to make BW tournaments work. Namely the players, and eliminated all the competition by making access to them impossible. It seems they are trying to do the same again, and I think that would be a very bad thing.
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Well if Kespa thinks I am going to keep putting up with their Korean language only streams they have something else coming. Sticking it to the GSL and those of us who appreciate its efforts to support the non-Korean audience is not the best step towards popularity. If they intend on sitting around competing with each other repeatedly instead of integrating into the community everyone else has built for SC2 then I hope noone watches. Living off their past fame from Brood War and avoiding the actual competitive scene is bad enough, but pulling out of events with no explaination and hurting them in the process is blatently disrespectful.
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EPT
