EPTEdit: You ninjaedit'ed, so I will as well. It's not about any kind of blind play, it's about random players having the luxury of choosing a build that suits the race they're playing against, and non-random players not having that luxury. I'm not arguing that all random players are bad, nor am I arguing that random turns diamonds into GM. What I am arguing is that a hidden race is a very real advantage. I never said it was an insurmountable or even a large advantage, just that it is there. A random player getting protoss can for instance go nexus first against a zerg and not scout for a sixpool and be far safer than a non-random protoss doing the same thing. Nexus first gives more money than forge first, no probe scout gives more money than probe scout. Can you please explain to me how these things are not advantages?
Why you shouldnt be playing random on ladder. - Page 16
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Catatafish
75 Posts
Edit: You ninjaedit'ed, so I will as well. It's not about any kind of blind play, it's about random players having the luxury of choosing a build that suits the race they're playing against, and non-random players not having that luxury. I'm not arguing that all random players are bad, nor am I arguing that random turns diamonds into GM. What I am arguing is that a hidden race is a very real advantage. I never said it was an insurmountable or even a large advantage, just that it is there. A random player getting protoss can for instance go nexus first against a zerg and not scout for a sixpool and be far safer than a non-random protoss doing the same thing. Nexus first gives more money than forge first, no probe scout gives more money than probe scout. Can you please explain to me how these things are not advantages? | ||
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Lorch
Germany3711 Posts
2. Don't get one of these guys who think you are mind gaming them. 3. Play pro random | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On August 25 2012 06:53 Catatafish wrote: Why is the BO advantage in quotation marks, and why would any such advantage not inflate your rank? Edit: You ninjaedit'ed, so I will as well. It's not about any kind of blind play, it's about random players having the luxury of choosing a build that suits the race they're playing against, and non-random players not having that luxury. I'm not arguing that all random players are bad, nor am I arguing that random turns diamonds into GM. What I am arguing is that a hidden race is a very real advantage. I never said it was an insurmountable or even a large advantage, just that it is there. A random player getting protoss can for instance go nexus first against a zerg and not scout for a sixpool and be far safer than a non-random protoss doing the same thing. Nexus first gives more money than forge first, no probe scout gives more money than probe scout. Can you please explain to me how these things are not advantages? The advantage has been acknowledged hundreds of times. No shit having your race is hidden is an advantage. Now can you acknowledge that the disadvantages are even bigger and random as a whole is generally disadvantaged? Like, what are you trying to imply? That random is imbalanced? You have nothing to gain by arguing this obvious point unless you're trying to make an entirely new one. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On August 25 2012 06:53 Catatafish wrote: Why is the BO advantage in quotation marks, and why would any such advantage not inflate your rank? Edit: You ninjaedit'ed, so I will as well. It's not about any kind of blind play, it's about random players having the luxury of choosing a build that suits the race they're playing against, and non-random players not having that luxury. I'm not arguing that all random players are bad, nor am I arguing that random turns diamonds into GM. What I am arguing is that a hidden race is a very real advantage. I never said it was an insurmountable or even a large advantage, just that it is there. A random player getting protoss can for instance go nexus first against a zerg and not scout for a sixpool and be far safer than a non-random protoss doing the same thing. Nexus first gives more money than forge first, no probe scout gives more money than probe scout. Can you please explain to me how these things are not advantages? goign nexus first is a risk no matter which way you look at it. you're saying opponent will expect cheese and therefore not think of nexus first. then the problem lies with the player automatically assuming the random will cheese, it has nothing to do with randomer being random. dont you worry about 6pool vZ? why is it more serious all of a sudden against a random player? scout and open safe and react to what opponent is doing. i really dont understand why people think the first 3 minutes decides the result of the game. if indeed it does, it has nothing to do with random but rather the player's choice on their build and their choice being naively chosen by ASSUMING what random will do. its ladder, the previous opponent is unrelated to next opponent. being 6pooled by zerg this game does not mean the next zerg will 6 pool. nor does it mean random will cheese all the time. stop assuming. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On August 25 2012 06:53 Catatafish wrote: Why is the BO advantage in quotation marks, and why would any such advantage not inflate your rank? Edit: You ninjaedit'ed, so I will as well. It's not about any kind of blind play, it's about random players having the luxury of choosing a build that suits the race they're playing against, and non-random players not having that luxury. I'm not arguing that all random players are bad, nor am I arguing that random turns diamonds into GM. What I am arguing is that a hidden race is a very real advantage. I never said it was an insurmountable or even a large advantage, just that it is there. A random player getting protoss can for instance go nexus first against a zerg and not scout for a sixpool and be far safer than a non-random protoss doing the same thing. Nexus first gives more money than forge first, no probe scout gives more money than probe scout. Can you please explain to me how these things are not advantages? Because you are assuming Random players play to that advantage. There are many Random players that simply play standard. People like you assume every Random is cheesing, so in the event they do cheese you should be the one with the BO advantage. Anyone relying heavily on such a miniscule advantage won't be anywhere near a high level player, making it hilarious that so many people here claim it ruins their practice. If you think it grants a significant advantage, then having to master many more races and matchups surely incurrs an equal if not greater disadvantage (you can't just ignore it because Random players have a choice). | ||
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Catatafish
75 Posts
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Dosey
United States4505 Posts
On August 25 2012 07:04 SupLilSon wrote: Because you are assuming Random players play to that advantage. There are many Random players that simply play standard. People like you assume every Random is cheesing, so in the event they do cheese you should be the one with the BO advantage. Anyone relying heavily on such a miniscule advantage won't be anywhere near a high level player, making it hilarious that so many people here claim it ruins their practice. If you think it grants a significant advantage, then having to master many more races and matchups surely incurrs an equal if not greater disadvantage (you can't just ignore it because Random players have a choice). Ironically, I've made it to Masters as Random simply by defending vs cheese for the most part. I rarely cheese as random and when I feel like cheesing I actually select a race so that it isn't as expected.  | ||
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Nightshade_
United States549 Posts
On August 25 2012 06:49 SupLilSon wrote: It's absurd and funny at the same time that you think the "BO advantage" of Random artificially inflates Random player's rank/skill. I honestly can't wrap my head around that. Like do you honestly believe that every Random player blindly plays the same builds specifically to counter the most common openers for each race? Like seriously. If you're actually half decent at SC2 you aren't even going to be playing many Random players in the first place. And chances are they aren't half bad players. Stop acting like Random turns diamonds into GMs or some shit. Because there aren't high master and GM random players, forgot about that. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On August 25 2012 07:06 Catatafish wrote: I'm saying that going nexus first in PvZ is less of a risk for the protoss player if he random'd protoss, than if he had picked it. I am not claiming the first 3 minutes decide the result of the game, but that they have an impact on it. I'm not at all talking about whether you assume the random player will cheese, but the fact that going 6pool as a zerg against a random player would be stupid, but going 6pool as a zerg against a non-random protoss is not necessarily stupid. Thus, non-random protosses have to worry about sixpools and random protosses don't (unless playing against people who play illogically) just like terran doesnt have to worry about 6pool. why would anyone 6pool against random for 1/3 of them being terran? as i've said, open safe as if you're playing a 4th race, a 1/3 chance of getting 6 pooled. scout and move on from the "unknown". | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On August 25 2012 07:10 Nightshade_ wrote: Because there aren't high master and GM random players, forgot about that. Why are you trying to be a smart ass? Of course there is an extremely small number of Random players in GM league. Do you honestly think they wouldn't be GM if they played a single race? Do you honestly think they got to GM by relying on these stupid hypothetical build order advantages that you guys are whining about? If your answer is yes, then there's nothing else to discuss. You are hopeless. | ||
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mostevil
United Kingdom611 Posts
On August 25 2012 06:58 Lorch wrote: 1. Tell your opponnent your race 2. Don't get one of these guys who think you are mind gaming them. 3. Play pro random 4. Get Panda decal | ||
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Catatafish
75 Posts
On August 25 2012 07:04 SupLilSon wrote: Because you are assuming Random players play to that advantage. There are many Random players that simply play standard. People like you assume every Random is cheesing, so in the event they do cheese you should be the one with the BO advantage. Anyone relying heavily on such a miniscule advantage won't be anywhere near a high level player, making it hilarious that so many people here claim it ruins their practice. If you think it grants a significant advantage, then having to master many more races and matchups surely incurrs an equal if not greater disadvantage (you can't just ignore it because Random players have a choice). The problem is that the hidden random does not allow the opposing player to play standard. A zerg player playing against a random rolling terran, for instance, has to go pool first instead of the standard hatch first, while the terran gets to do a more optimal build. Again, I'm not saying it's a huge advantage, but it does limit my options and force me down a non-optimal build that I don't want to be pracitising, and it decreases the level of diversity of play. Your second point that the advantage given (which you now, sort of, seem to recognize, even though you found it borderline retarded before) by random is outweighed by the disadvantage of learning 9 match-ups is self-evidently true, otherwise the pro scene would be dominated by randoms and it would be a really huge issue (which I never argued, it was. I was just trying to give a well-argued reason for why I don't like it, in response to your provocative earlier post). But it is also irrelevant, which goes back to my earlier point about the analagous unit health buff. You could remove the hidden random and instead give all random players a +5% (the exact number is not important to the argument) hit point handicap, and still probably argue that playing random was not overpowered because the advantaged is outweighed by the difficulty of learning three times as many match ups. I would still argue, however, that you should, insofar as it is possible, win a game solely based on the strength of the match up you are playing, and not due to a buff that is a kind of pat on the back for you because you are so awesome you can play 9 matchups. If I get beaten by a random player, and a lucky early game situation for him had any major part to play in it, I find it really infuriating. (This is not as inconcievable as you make it sound. Less economy, sub-optimal overlord locations, etc. can all have major impacts on the game. Starcraft is in the details, which is why it's awesome.) | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On August 25 2012 07:17 Catatafish wrote: The problem is that the hidden random does not allow the opposing player to play random. A zerg player playing against a random rolling terran, for instance, has to go pool first instead of the standard hatch first, while the terran gets to do a more optimal build. Again, I'm not saying it's a huge advantage, but it does limit my options and force me down a non-optimal build that I don't want to be pracitising, and it decreases the level of diversity of play. Your second point that the advantage given (which you now, sort of, seem to recognize, even though you found it borderline retarded before) by random is outweighed by the disadvantage of learning 9 match-ups is self-evidently true, otherwise the pro scene would be dominated by randoms and it would be a really huge issue (which I never argued, it was. I was just trying to give a well-argued reason for why I don't like it, in response to your provocative earlier post). But it is also irrelevant, which goes back to my earlier point about the analagous unit health buff. You could remove the hidden random and instead give all random players a +5% (the exact number is not important to the argument) hit point handicap, and still probably argue that playing random was not overpowered because the advantaged is outweighed by the difficulty of learning three times as many match ups. I would still argue, however, that you should, insofar as it is possible, win a game solely based on the strength of the match up you are playing, and not due to a buff that is a kind of pat on the back for you because you are so awesome you can play 9 matchups. If I get beaten by a random player, and a lucky early game situation for him had any major part to play in it, I find it really infuriating. (This is not as inconcievable as you make it sound. Less economy, sub-optimal overlord locations, etc. can all have major impacts on the game. Starcraft is in the details, which is why it's awesome.) Are you even reading what I, jinorazi and others are saying? In order for a Random player to play a "more optimal" build they would have to taking big risks based on assumptions as well, unless they scout.. | ||
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Dosey
United States4505 Posts
On August 25 2012 07:17 Catatafish wrote: The problem is that the hidden random does not allow the opposing player to play random. A zerg player playing against a random rolling terran, for instance, has to go pool first instead of the standard hatch first, while the terran gets to do a more optimal build. Again, I'm not saying it's a huge advantage, but it does limit my options and force me down a non-optimal build that I don't want to be pracitising, and it decreases the level of diversity of play. "I can't do the ONE build that puts me at an advantage, so that detracts from the diversity" Did I really just read that? If anything, playing vs a Random adds more dynamic to your skills because you are constantly on your toes and trying to adapt to an unknown entity. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On August 25 2012 07:23 Dosey wrote: "I can't do the ONE build that puts me at an advantage, so that detracts from the diversity" Did I really just read that? If anything, playing vs a Random adds more dynamic to your skills because you are constantly on your toes and trying to adapt to an unknown entity. No, people want to play exactly how they see their favorite pro play, every single game. Because that is the optimal way to play, even though they have no idea what makes it optimal. | ||
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Catatafish
75 Posts
Making uneducated guesses as to which your opponents race might happen to be does make add more dynamic to your skill. You can't adapt to 'an unknown entity', that doesn't make sense. You can adapt once it is known, at which point you will (theoretically) have a slight build order disadvantage. On August 25 2012 07:03 rd wrote: The advantage has been acknowledged hundreds of times. No shit having your race is hidden is an advantage. Now can you acknowledge that the disadvantages are even bigger and random as a whole is generally disadvantaged? Like, what are you trying to imply? That random is imbalanced? You have nothing to gain by arguing this obvious point unless you're trying to make an entirely new one. I was arguing for it because the previous post did not seem to acknowledge it. If you read on you will see that I am precisely not implying that 'random is imbalanced', but that I don't like the idea that random needs a buff (and one that limits the variety of play possible to the opponent) to make up for the fact that mastering 9 match ups is difficult On August 25 2012 07:21 SupLilSon wrote: Are you even reading what I, jinorazi and others are saying? In order for a Random player to play a "more optimal" build they would have to taking big risks based on assumptions as well, unless they scout.. Yes, I am. I could ask you the same question. 1 rax FE is more optimal in TvZ than 14pool 16 hatch. If I play against a random terran, he can go 1 rax FE, the more optimal build, and I have to go pool first, the less optimal build. Again, how is that disputable? | ||
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Silentenigma
Turkey2037 Posts
On August 25 2012 06:58 Lorch wrote: 1. Tell your opponnent your race 2. Don't get one of these guys who think you are mind gaming them. 3. Play pro random This doesnt work.Most people lie.Even sometimes they dont lie how can I believe his honesty.It is ladder everyone wants points-.- | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
and if you really want to practice match ups, ladder isn't the place. and i totally understand in practice environments, random is not good but ladder isn't that. | ||
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Cokefreak
Finland8096 Posts
On August 25 2012 07:30 Silentenigma wrote: This doesnt work.Most people lie.Even sometimes they dont lie how can I believe his honesty.It is ladder everyone wants points-.- I don't care about points, I just want the random achievement ._. I would be fine with the race being displayed when the map is loading. Or maybe they could just get rid of random achievements altogether which would at least fix this for some people. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3711 Posts
On August 25 2012 07:30 Silentenigma wrote: This doesnt work.Most people lie.Even sometimes they dont lie how can I believe his honesty.It is ladder everyone wants points-.- Well see the thing is I'm on the other side of the fence were I'm like "I just wanna improve in all these matchups and this guy doesn't believe me so the game is fucked and I get bad practice". But yeah assholes on ladder lying about it really fucks up your life playing random. | ||
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