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Which incidentally has nothing to do with my point, as I have stressed in like five separate posts. I am not claiming random is overpowered or in any way a good idea if you want to play as high level as possible.
We're arguing semantics now, and I don't think we can come to a conclusion. Yours, however, seems blatantly illogical to me. Now TvR is not a different match-up anymore. Random is a fourth race, but then after you see them they change to one of the three first races.
I came into this whole argument because I strongly dislike playing against random, and someone called people of that opinion "stupid, biased, quick to whine, delusional and pathetic" (I paraphrased), while even (which is pretty mind-boggling) criticizing how they argued at the same time. So now I've argued why I feel this way, and I'm officially done with this discussion.
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On August 25 2012 08:54 Catatafish wrote:
Which incidentally has nothing to do with my point, as I have stressed in like five separate posts. I am not claiming random is overpowered or in any way a good idea if you want to play as high level as possible.
We're arguing semantics now, and I don't think we can come to a conclusion. Yours, however, seems blatantly illogical to me. Now TvR is not a different match-up anymore. Random is a fourth race, but then after you see them they change to one of the three first races.
because you dont know what race the opponent is, you obviously have to adapt to that fact and open safely that can adapt to whatever race they may be. because your build is predetermined or influenced by the fact that you dont know your opponent's race, you have to open a certain way, same way how different match ups have different openers.
thats why people say random should be treated as a 4th race, because your opener is influenced by it like other match ups.
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On August 25 2012 08:54 Catatafish wrote:
Which incidentally has nothing to do with my point, as I have stressed in like five separate posts. I am not claiming random is overpowered or in any way a good idea if you want to play as high level as possible.
We're arguing semantics now, and I don't think we can come to a conclusion. Yours, however, seems blatantly illogical to me. Now TvR is not a different match-up anymore. Random is a fourth race, but then after you see them they change to one of the three first races.
Random is a fourth race and TvR is a different match-up, which is why you open the most optimal build against a random player. It turns into a TvZ when you scout hes zerg. You opened against a random, not a zerg. Is that really that hard to understand? You're just twisting shit for your own convenience. I'm not even sure what you have to gain, other than maybe 1 more win every other 20 games when you queue against a random.
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TvT: 1 Rax FE
TvZ: 1 Rax FE
TvP: 1 Rax FE
I think I'm safe against Random ^.^
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On August 25 2012 08:59 rd wrote:
Random is a fourth race and TvR is a different match-up, which is why you open the most optimal build against a random player. It turns into a TvZ when you scout hes zerg. You opened against a random, not a zerg. Is that really that hard to understand? You're just twisting shit for your own convenience. I'm not even sure what you have to gain, other than maybe 1 more win every other 20 games when you queue against a random.
I disagree with the premise that random constitutes a fourth race, and I think it is harmful to the game that you have to do catch-all builds.
Conversely, what do random have to gain by having their race hidden? Other than maybe 1 more win every other 20 games.
FFS, the opener is not influenced like every other match up (where depending on the metagame there might be three radically different openers), it turns the opener into a catch all build that sort of but not really works against all three races (or a gamble). It doesn't add diversity, it removes it.
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On August 25 2012 09:02 Catatafish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 08:59 rd wrote:
Random is a fourth race and TvR is a different match-up, which is why you open the most optimal build against a random player. It turns into a TvZ when you scout hes zerg. You opened against a random, not a zerg. Is that really that hard to understand? You're just twisting shit for your own convenience. I'm not even sure what you have to gain, other than maybe 1 more win every other 20 games when you queue against a random.
I disagree with the premise that random constitutes a fourth race, and I think it is harmful to the game that you have to do catch-all builds. Conversely, what do random have to gain by having their race hidden? Other than maybe 1 more win every other 20 games.
because we play for fun. not for advantage, not for anything, i personally play random because i just want to play all three races equally and i'm not going to go out of my way to go buy a dice and roll it for other's sake, i'll just tell my race at start which i do. i better good with all three races, its the least i can do after playing bw for 10 years. plus i make good practice partner knowing all three races.
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On August 25 2012 08:49 StevieWonder333 wrote:
1100 point random master here. You are dumb.
How is your rank relevant?
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On August 25 2012 09:04 jinorazi wrote:
because we play for fun. not for advantage, not for anything, i personally play random because i just want to play all three races equally and i'm not going to go out of my way to go buy a dice and roll it for other's sake, i'll just tell my race at start which i do. i better good with all three races, its the least i can do after playing bw for 10 years.
You don't play for the advantage, but you should still have that advantage because...
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On August 25 2012 09:02 Catatafish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 08:59 rd wrote:
Random is a fourth race and TvR is a different match-up, which is why you open the most optimal build against a random player. It turns into a TvZ when you scout hes zerg. You opened against a random, not a zerg. Is that really that hard to understand? You're just twisting shit for your own convenience. I'm not even sure what you have to gain, other than maybe 1 more win every other 20 games when you queue against a random.
I disagree with the premise that random constitutes a fourth race, and I think it is harmful to the game that you have to do catch-all builds. Conversely, what do random have to gain by having their race hidden? Other than maybe 1 more win every other 20 games. FFS, the opener is not influenced like every other match up (where depending on the metagame there might be three radically different openers), it turns the opener into a catch all build that sort of but not really works against all three races (or a gamble). It doesn't add diversity, it removes it.
We get it, you really really really hate non-standard games where you might have to play a tiny tiny tiny tiny bit differently.
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On August 25 2012 09:05 Catatafish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 09:04 jinorazi wrote:
because we play for fun. not for advantage, not for anything, i personally play random because i just want to play all three races equally and i'm not going to go out of my way to go buy a dice and roll it for other's sake, i'll just tell my race at start which i do. i better good with all three races, its the least i can do after playing bw for 10 years. You don't play for the advantage, but you should still have that advantage because...
if you want to write a letter to blizzard saying loading screen should show " Random Zerg", "Random Protoss", "Random Terran", i have no objection.
plus random has no effect on terran. build order is not set in stone after you 9 scout and there will be plenty of room to figure out what to do after knowing their race.
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On August 25 2012 09:09 Catatafish wrote:
Then we're agreed.
still, i think you're taking random too seriously. most people play for fun you know...not knowing your opponent's race is not the end of the world.
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On August 25 2012 09:02 Catatafish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 08:59 rd wrote:
Random is a fourth race and TvR is a different match-up, which is why you open the most optimal build against a random player. It turns into a TvZ when you scout hes zerg. You opened against a random, not a zerg. Is that really that hard to understand? You're just twisting shit for your own convenience. I'm not even sure what you have to gain, other than maybe 1 more win every other 20 games when you queue against a random.
I disagree with the premise that random constitutes a fourth race, and I think it is harmful to the game that you have to do catch-all builds. Conversely, what do random have to gain by having their race hidden? Other than maybe 1 more win every other 20 games. FFS, the opener is not influenced like every other match up (where depending on the metagame there might be three radically different openers), it turns the opener into a catch all build that sort of but not really works against all three races (or a gamble). It doesn't add diversity, it removes it.
I'm sorry that you disagree with a fact? What more do you want me to tell you? And what rule states you have to open 'catch-all' against random, and even if you did, elaborate on how it harms the game?
and christfuck they're playing 3 races at once and are consistently worse players than "evenly matched" opponents. The random factor gives them a slight advantage to balance it out. It creates a fourth race with it's own unique aspect. It's existed for 14 years and was a cool feature in SC1 so it was brought over in SC2. You're ridiculous.
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You can re-read my posts for answers to your questions, but I'll reiterate it briefly.
It's not a fact. There are three races and random lets you pick one of them at random. Different RTS' handle the notion of random differently. Some show the races on the load screen, some don't.
You don't have to open catch-all against random. But if you don't, you are taking a chance that your opponent does not spawn as the race that you are not opening safely against. In any case your build will be (say if you 9 scout, when you otherwise wouldn't have) suboptimal for the match-up.
It harms the game because it removes diversity of play. A protoss against a zerg has a wide variety of openers to choose from, one of which is FFE, arguably the best and certainly an interesting build. Playing against a zerg who picked random, he has to go gateway first (a gateway he can't place optimally, he has to place it at the ramp to wall for potential zerglings, so it might get sniped by marauders later), thus limiting his options. For this reason, Day9 for instance chose to announce his race at the beginning of each game, so that he could play against the optimal play for his opponent.
I didn't play SC1. I don't see how 14 years of existence is relevant. You're unnecessarily ad hominem.
On August 25 2012 09:12 jinorazi wrote:
still, i think you're taking random too seriously. most people play for fun you know...not knowing your opponent's race is not the end of the world.
But less fun
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On August 25 2012 09:20 Catatafish wrote:You can re-read my posts for answers to your questions, but I'll reiterate it briefly. It's not a fact. There are three races and random lets you pick one of them at random. Different RTS' handle the notion of random differently. Some show the races on the load screen, some don't. You don't have to open catch-all against random. But if you don't, you are taking a chance that your opponent does not spawn as the race that you are not opening safely against. In any case your build will be (say if you 9 scout, when you otherwise wouldn't have) suboptimal for the match-up. It harms the game because it removes diversity of play. A protoss against a zerg has a wide variety of openers to choose from, one of which is FFE, arguably the best and certainly an interesting build. Playing against a zerg who picked random, he has to go gateway first (a gateway he can't place optimally, he has to place it at the ramp to wall for potential zerglings, so it might get sniped by marauders later), thus limiting his options. For this reason, Day9 for instance chose to announce his race at the beginning of each game, so that he could play against the optimal play for his opponent. I didn't play SC1. I don't see how 14 years of existence is relevant. You're unnecessarily ad hominem. Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 09:12 jinorazi wrote:
still, i think you're taking random too seriously. most people play for fun you know...not knowing your opponent's race is not the end of the world. But less fun
bcause day9 is nice and he wants to create a practice environemnt for his opponent, many people couldnt careless and they're not obligated to do so. same could be said of any race picker and them not cheesing for their opponent's sake.
a protoss can't ffe against protoss thus limiting his build to gateway variations. and as i've said before, this is no different than vR, thus they're called "4th race" because the openers are determined by what race opponent is and unknown factor adds to that opening variation. and my point is that that limiting of openers as you call it, is not a big deal since different match ups deal with it too and there is plenty of time to react after scouting.
less fun just like some match ups are less fun and that less fun becomes more fun depending on what race your opponent is after scouting.
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On August 25 2012 09:20 Catatafish wrote:You can re-read my posts for answers to your questions, but I'll reiterate it briefly. It's not a fact. There are three races and random lets you pick one of them at random. Different RTS' handle the notion of random differently. Some show the races on the load screen, some don't. You don't have to open catch-all against random. But if you don't, you are taking a chance that your opponent does not spawn as the race that you are not opening safely against. In any case your build will be (say if you 9 scout, when you otherwise wouldn't have) suboptimal for the match-up. It harms the game because it removes diversity of play. A protoss against a zerg has a wide variety of openers to choose from, one of which is FFE, arguably the best and certainly an interesting build. Playing against a zerg who picked random, he has to go gateway first (a gateway he can't place optimally, he has to place it at the ramp to wall for potential zerglings, so it might get sniped by marauders later), thus limiting his options. For this reason, Day9 for instance chose to announce his race at the beginning of each game, so that he could play against the optimal play for his opponent. I didn't play SC1. I don't see how 14 years of existence is relevant. You're unnecessarily ad hominem. Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 09:12 jinorazi wrote:
still, i think you're taking random too seriously. most people play for fun you know...not knowing your opponent's race is not the end of the world. But less fun
I don't think the person choosing random takes into account how much fun you'll have.
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On August 25 2012 09:25 jinorazi wrote:
a protoss can't ffe against protoss thus limiting his build to gateway variations. and as i've said before, this is no different than vR, thus they're called "4th race" because the openers are determined by what race opponent is and unknown factor adds to that opening variation. and my point is that that limiting of openers as you call it, is not a big deal since different match ups deal with it too.
.
So you're not getting my point. vR if you want to call it that, you are limited to a build that is safe vZ, vT, and vP. Less builds are safe vs. all three races than vs. one of the races. Thus you have more builds to choose from against only one race.
On August 25 2012 09:26 Eventine wrote:
I don't think the person choosing random takes into account how much fun you'll have.
Probably not, but how is that relevant to anything?
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On August 25 2012 09:20 Catatafish wrote:
You can re-read my posts for answers to your questions, but I'll reiterate it briefly.
It's not a fact. There are three races and random lets you pick one of them at random. Different RTS' handle the notion of random differently. Some show the races on the load screen, some don't.
You don't have to open catch-all against random. But if you don't, you are taking a chance that your opponent does not spawn as the race that you are not opening safely against. In any case your build will be (say if you 9 scout, when you otherwise wouldn't have) suboptimal for the match-up.
It harms the game because it removes diversity of play. A protoss against a zerg has a wide variety of openers to choose from, one of which is FFE, arguably the best and certainly an interesting build. Playing against a zerg who picked random, he has to go gateway first (a gateway he can't place optimally, he has to place it at the ramp to wall for potential zerglings, so it might get sniped by marauders later), thus limiting his options. For this reason, Day9 for instance chose to announce his race at the beginning of each game, so that he could play against the optimal play for his opponent.
I didn't play SC1. I don't see how 14 years of existence is relevant. You're unnecessarily ad hominem.
It's a fact in starcraft, get over it.
Threre are a ton of openings in normal builds that take risks and can become a disadvantage - which is why people don't open them and aren't very diverse in their opening. There are a ton of builds you can open vs random. You're just limited on how greedy you can be. XvR isn't the only match-up with this restriction, and it varies by map. Also, 9 scout is optimal for the random match-up. We just went through this just two posts ago. Stop comparing XvR to XvX. Different match-ups. Different openings. Different forms of what may be defined as optimal. Is it optimal to know what race you're playing against 30 seconds sooner? yes.
Nothing dictates protoss has to go gateway first, and you insinuate it's a bad sub-optimal build. Go back and read the previous posts on it. If the best players in the world can pull it off at the highest of levels, <gm players can pull it off vs random players who are statistically worse at ZvP than their protoss opponent. edit: i'm not going to argue on day9's behalf
Lol okay. 14 years is irrelevant because you came out of the woodworks to bitch about it and think you're important enough to see Starcraft's legacy morphed to what you dictate is fun for you. Get over yourself. If it wasn't removed after being in Starcraft for 14 years, it doesn't state any precedence on how widely accepted random as a race is? Or are you willfully choosing to be ignorant?
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On August 25 2012 09:29 Catatafish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 09:25 jinorazi wrote:
a protoss can't ffe against protoss thus limiting his build to gateway variations. and as i've said before, this is no different than vR, thus they're called "4th race" because the openers are determined by what race opponent is and unknown factor adds to that opening variation. and my point is that that limiting of openers as you call it, is not a big deal since different match ups deal with it too.
. So you're not getting my point. vR if you want to call it that, you are limited to a build that is safe vZ, vT, and vP. Less builds are safe vs. all three races than vs. one of the races. Thus you have more builds to choose from against only one race. Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 09:26 Eventine wrote:
I don't think the person choosing random takes into account how much fun you'll have. Probably not, but how is that relevant to anything?
and some protoss openers are safe against some terran's openers and weak against other terran openers.
(not openers but builds)
and there's plenty of time to react after 9 scouting a randomer as i pointed out many times, just like any race pickers would after they scout their opponent's build.
you're not getting my point o.O
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EPT
