Protoss seems pretty good imo, listening to Feast and saying that the mothership core has a 25 mana ability that can be used on the nexus to get full 200/200 energy seems pretty good I wouldn't really mind getting no new gateway units when you can have so much chronoboost.
Kind of agree with cloud aswell though despite him whining about everything too much in the past, if anything the skill ceiling should be raised for other races than adding in the warhound. So that you can easily see who the good players are and will be rewarded with playing so well and the bad players will suffer and stay irrelevant by being bad instead of possibly getting good tournament finishes when they may not deserve it.
On August 21 2012 23:49 Mauldo wrote: Cloud just proves once again that he belongs on the battle.net forums. Blaming Blizzard for losing a game in an imbalanced HOTS alpha is plain sad. Add that to his long track record of shitting on other people for no reason, and (my personal favorite) constantly claiming that the skill ceiling is too low and anyone can win when the guy can't even qualify for WCS Italy or remain even kinda relevant and I'm starting to get annoyed with him even being there. He's about as bad as TT1 at his worst or avilo at his best. The shot at David Kim was really something special, and proved his maturity.
Of course Terran are being given two a-move units. There race is the hardest to play micro wise. Ever wonder why it's taken Terran as a whole (barring people like Taeja) longer than most would think to find a solution to their problems when they have people like QXC on the case? The race is just plain harder and more intensive. So they gave them a few units to maybe even out the odds while giving Zerg/Protoss more micro-centric/thought-provoking units to use. The Viper and Swarm Host, for example, are perfect examples of a anti-a-move unit. You have to think about how to use them, and they add a level of difficult up toward the Terran level, while Terran will hopefully be bumped down a smidge by the Warhound and Battle Hellion.
My favorite parts of this thread are the people who are still trying to shit on HOTS units before they're even in beta stage, and the people who are seriously taking Cloud as banner carrier to try and proclaim that the max skill level in SC2 is already almost met.
Are you kidding me guys? Seriously. You have to be.
Maybe read the thread and the posts contained within before pre-judging. People are referencing the difference between a skill ceiling which isn't yet reached, but a skill floor where people with mediocre mechanics are still able to compete.
Cloud was not fucking butthurt about losing a game in the alpha build, but is pointing out the direction that HoTS is going after having played the game, played around with the design etc.
Also Cloud plays Terran, and is saying that the 1A mentality of which the warhound is the chief 'offender' is something that he doesn't want, even though it would improve his own race's ease of play. Why might that be? Despite this I'm sure he's just a butthurt balance whiner who wants easy results though......
I don’t think anyone is even attempting to argue that Cloud is upset that he lost a game in a test build of HotS. I personally don’t like that fact that he asserts that Blizzard is designing the game for bad player based off of that single experience. People, as a whole, are responding to the over all negative tone of his interview and his attitude toward the game designers. Calling someone an idiot because you don’t agree with them is pretty unprofessional. Also, its kind of lazy, since there are so many other words that could be used.
But most I think people are getting tired of the complaining, negativity and over all bitchyness toward this expansion and the game. The game is so clearly in alpha and not even fully released in beta. Stuff will change and Blizzard is clearly willing to try things out and people really need to start treating the changes as such.
There is a metric fuckton of community feedback out there that is being patently ignored with the direction HoTS looks to be going at this current juncture. It is subject to change yes, but maybe that process can be sped along with feedback?
When the balance team professed recently that they were unaware that the mothership was popular in lategame PvZ, when they claim to watch all the big tournaments your faith in Blizzard takes a knock. They can't claim to be clued into the current trends of pro play, and have a gap in their knowledge that big!
You misread what they said. They were unaware that the Mothership on late game PvZ was a issue. A lot of people say that late game of PvZ is coinflippy because it depends so much on the Vortex and Neural.
And even that is not completely true. You can always split your BL, position better your army, etc.
On August 22 2012 00:56 Jaegeru wrote: Protoss seems pretty good imo, listening to Feast and saying that the mothership core has a 25 mana ability that can be used on the nexus to get full 200/200 energy seems pretty good I wouldn't really mind getting no new gateway units when you can have so much chronoboost.
Kind of agree with cloud aswell though despite him whining about everything too much in the past, if anything the skill ceiling should be raised for other races than adding in the warhound. So that you can easily see who the good players are and will be rewarded with playing so well and the bad players will suffer and stay irrelevant by being bad instead of possibly getting good tournament finishes when they may not deserve it.
All the listed changes are good. Especially the widow-mine looking more and more spider mine by the patch.
And glad that I'm not the only one that thought energizing the nexus meaning unlimited CB was a bit imbalanced. You actually could CB out collossi and double forges non-stop with that ability.
And best of all, the mothership stays. Now if we can only save the carrier too!
On August 21 2012 23:49 Mauldo wrote: Cloud just proves once again that he belongs on the battle.net forums. Blaming Blizzard for losing a game in an imbalanced HOTS alpha is plain sad. Add that to his long track record of shitting on other people for no reason, and (my personal favorite) constantly claiming that the skill ceiling is too low and anyone can win when the guy can't even qualify for WCS Italy or remain even kinda relevant and I'm starting to get annoyed with him even being there. He's about as bad as TT1 at his worst or avilo at his best. The shot at David Kim was really something special, and proved his maturity.
Of course Terran are being given two a-move units. There race is the hardest to play micro wise. Ever wonder why it's taken Terran as a whole (barring people like Taeja) longer than most would think to find a solution to their problems when they have people like QXC on the case? The race is just plain harder and more intensive. So they gave them a few units to maybe even out the odds while giving Zerg/Protoss more micro-centric/thought-provoking units to use. The Viper and Swarm Host, for example, are perfect examples of a anti-a-move unit. You have to think about how to use them, and they add a level of difficult up toward the Terran level, while Terran will hopefully be bumped down a smidge by the Warhound and Battle Hellion.
My favorite parts of this thread are the people who are still trying to shit on HOTS units before they're even in beta stage, and the people who are seriously taking Cloud as banner carrier to try and proclaim that the max skill level in SC2 is already almost met.
Are you kidding me guys? Seriously. You have to be.
Maybe read the thread and the posts contained within before pre-judging. People are referencing the difference between a skill ceiling which isn't yet reached, but a skill floor where people with mediocre mechanics are still able to compete.
Cloud was not fucking butthurt about losing a game in the alpha build, but is pointing out the direction that HoTS is going after having played the game, played around with the design etc.
Also Cloud plays Terran, and is saying that the 1A mentality of which the warhound is the chief 'offender' is something that he doesn't want, even though it would improve his own race's ease of play. Why might that be? Despite this I'm sure he's just a butthurt balance whiner who wants easy results though......
I don’t think anyone is even attempting to argue that Cloud is upset that he lost a game in a test build of HotS. I personally don’t like that fact that he asserts that Blizzard is designing the game for bad player based off of that single experience. People, as a whole, are responding to the over all negative tone of his interview and his attitude toward the game designers. Calling someone an idiot because you don’t agree with them is pretty unprofessional. Also, its kind of lazy, since there are so many other words that could be used.
But most I think people are getting tired of the complaining, negativity and over all bitchyness toward this expansion and the game. The game is so clearly in alpha and not even fully released in beta. Stuff will change and Blizzard is clearly willing to try things out and people really need to start treating the changes as such.
There is a metric fuckton of community feedback out there that is being patently ignored with the direction HoTS looks to be going at this current juncture. It is subject to change yes, but maybe that process can be sped along with feedback? When the balance team professed recently that they were unaware that the mothership was popular in lategame PvZ, when they claim to watch all the big tournaments your faith in Blizzard takes a knock. They can't claim to be clued into the current trends of pro play, and have a gap in their knowledge that big!
Where did they say that? As far as I'm aware there was some awkward Interview by Kennigit where he asked a weird question about PvZ lategame problems.
However Browder did not say they don't know that the mothership is/was popular in PvZ.
So, can you link to that statement? If not - no comment.
I don’t think they ever said that either. I also remember the interview where Dustin was caught with a question about the mothership in late game PvZ. I think the question was mostly about how late game PvZ is to focused on the mothership and vortex, but it was framed like several previous balance questions. From my memory, it looked like Dustin misunderstood the question and said he was not aware of a “balance issue” with the mother ship late game, but the question was really focused on a game play and design issue. Still, he said they would look into it and did not ignore the question.
But clearly here are some people who live to be upset and claim that Blizzard is not listening to them.
Yeh, it's pretty clear that it should go both ways. If the community demands more clear talk from the developers than we can't have these, momentarily very common, instances where a lot people get mad over something that never got said.
When reading/listening to an interview the community shouldn't try to freak out once there's something that isn't clear at first. Instead it's best to try to understand the meaning, which in most cases shouldn't be too hard unless you really do consider the devs to be complete idiots.
I mean it's already pretty good with the Starcraft community and there's a lot more Dev talk and interview it feels like, still, improvements can be made.
On August 22 2012 00:56 Jaegeru wrote: Protoss seems pretty good imo, listening to Feast and saying that the mothership core has a 25 mana ability that can be used on the nexus to get full 200/200 energy seems pretty good I wouldn't really mind getting no new gateway units when you can have so much chronoboost.
Kind of agree with cloud aswell though despite him whining about everything too much in the past, if anything the skill ceiling should be raised for other races than adding in the warhound. So that you can easily see who the good players are and will be rewarded with playing so well and the bad players will suffer and stay irrelevant by being bad instead of possibly getting good tournament finishes when they may not deserve it.
u cant energize a nexus anymore, only units
Oh I see, hadn't realised that had been changed so would agree and say that protoss probably has got the shorter end of the stick at the moment.
On August 21 2012 23:49 Mauldo wrote: Cloud just proves once again that he belongs on the battle.net forums. Blaming Blizzard for losing a game in an imbalanced HOTS alpha is plain sad. Add that to his long track record of shitting on other people for no reason, and (my personal favorite) constantly claiming that the skill ceiling is too low and anyone can win when the guy can't even qualify for WCS Italy or remain even kinda relevant and I'm starting to get annoyed with him even being there. He's about as bad as TT1 at his worst or avilo at his best. The shot at David Kim was really something special, and proved his maturity.
Of course Terran are being given two a-move units. There race is the hardest to play micro wise. Ever wonder why it's taken Terran as a whole (barring people like Taeja) longer than most would think to find a solution to their problems when they have people like QXC on the case? The race is just plain harder and more intensive. So they gave them a few units to maybe even out the odds while giving Zerg/Protoss more micro-centric/thought-provoking units to use. The Viper and Swarm Host, for example, are perfect examples of a anti-a-move unit. You have to think about how to use them, and they add a level of difficult up toward the Terran level, while Terran will hopefully be bumped down a smidge by the Warhound and Battle Hellion.
My favorite parts of this thread are the people who are still trying to shit on HOTS units before they're even in beta stage, and the people who are seriously taking Cloud as banner carrier to try and proclaim that the max skill level in SC2 is already almost met.
Are you kidding me guys? Seriously. You have to be.
Maybe read the thread and the posts contained within before pre-judging. People are referencing the difference between a skill ceiling which isn't yet reached, but a skill floor where people with mediocre mechanics are still able to compete.
Cloud was not fucking butthurt about losing a game in the alpha build, but is pointing out the direction that HoTS is going after having played the game, played around with the design etc.
Also Cloud plays Terran, and is saying that the 1A mentality of which the warhound is the chief 'offender' is something that he doesn't want, even though it would improve his own race's ease of play. Why might that be? Despite this I'm sure he's just a butthurt balance whiner who wants easy results though......
I don’t think anyone is even attempting to argue that Cloud is upset that he lost a game in a test build of HotS. I personally don’t like that fact that he asserts that Blizzard is designing the game for bad player based off of that single experience. People, as a whole, are responding to the over all negative tone of his interview and his attitude toward the game designers. Calling someone an idiot because you don’t agree with them is pretty unprofessional. Also, its kind of lazy, since there are so many other words that could be used.
But most I think people are getting tired of the complaining, negativity and over all bitchyness toward this expansion and the game. The game is so clearly in alpha and not even fully released in beta. Stuff will change and Blizzard is clearly willing to try things out and people really need to start treating the changes as such.
There is a metric fuckton of community feedback out there that is being patently ignored with the direction HoTS looks to be going at this current juncture. It is subject to change yes, but maybe that process can be sped along with feedback? When the balance team professed recently that they were unaware that the mothership was popular in lategame PvZ, when they claim to watch all the big tournaments your faith in Blizzard takes a knock. They can't claim to be clued into the current trends of pro play, and have a gap in their knowledge that big!
Where did they say that? As far as I'm aware there was some awkward Interview by Kennigit where he asked a weird question about PvZ lategame problems.
However Browder did not say they don't know that the mothership is/was popular in PvZ.
So, can you link to that statement? If not - no comment.
I don’t think they ever said that either. I also remember the interview where Dustin was caught with a question about the mothership in late game PvZ. I think the question was mostly about how late game PvZ is to focused on the mothership and vortex, but it was framed like several previous balance questions. From my memory, it looked like Dustin misunderstood the question and said he was not aware of a “balance issue” with the mother ship late game, but the question was really focused on a game play and design issue. Still, he said they would look into it and did not ignore the question.
But clearly here are some people who live to be upset and claim that Blizzard is not listening to them.
Yeh, it's pretty clear that it should go both ways. If the community demands more clear talk from the developers than we can't have these, momentarily very common, instances where a lot people get mad over something that never got said.
When reading/listening to an interview the community shouldn't try to freak out once there's something that isn't clear at first. Instead it's best to try to understand the meaning, which in most cases shouldn't be too hard unless you really do consider the devs to be complete idiots.
I mean it's already pretty good with the Starcraft community and there's a lot more Dev talk and interview it feels like, still, improvements can be made.
I corrected myself on that point by the way, took a bit longer than I would have wished as there are a bunch of my family demanding I stop being antisocial at the minute!
Starting 1:30 is the line of questioning that lead to this misunderstanding
I do not care for Cloud's attitude, but putting that aside he made a great point amongst all the QQ and abuse. Instead of making Protoss and Zerg units harder to control they are veering towards making Terran more a-move friendly. As much from some lame personal point of view I would like Terran unit comps a bit easier to control, I would prefer other races having harder armies to control to make the game better.
On August 22 2012 01:21 Klipsys wrote: Who really cares what cloud thinks? Has he even won anything ever?
That isn't relevant to the discussion. You can't have a valid opinion without being the best player in the world? Why are you even reading this forum if you don't care about opinions of people that have never won anything, because that's probably close to 99,9 % of the community?
On August 21 2012 20:06 NVRLand wrote: Would someone please be so kind and explain what that "stasis" ability is? I've checked google translate to find out the swedish word for it but can't find anything that actually explains what the mothership ability will do to the units... haven't found any videos of it being demonstrated either :/
Stasis was new ability on the Mothership, it is ability to freeze all air units around the Mothership, including yours too, because Vortex is working only vs. ground units.
lol they added statis? another bw spell
That one in particular really confused me because Vortex is the new Stasis. A lot of the BW spells made it into SC2 under different names and races, though their previous glory is much diminished in their new forms.
On August 21 2012 23:49 Mauldo wrote: Cloud just proves once again that he belongs on the battle.net forums. Blaming Blizzard for losing a game in an imbalanced HOTS alpha is plain sad. Add that to his long track record of shitting on other people for no reason, and (my personal favorite) constantly claiming that the skill ceiling is too low and anyone can win when the guy can't even qualify for WCS Italy or remain even kinda relevant and I'm starting to get annoyed with him even being there. He's about as bad as TT1 at his worst or avilo at his best. The shot at David Kim was really something special, and proved his maturity.
Of course Terran are being given two a-move units. There race is the hardest to play micro wise. Ever wonder why it's taken Terran as a whole (barring people like Taeja) longer than most would think to find a solution to their problems when they have people like QXC on the case? The race is just plain harder and more intensive. So they gave them a few units to maybe even out the odds while giving Zerg/Protoss more micro-centric/thought-provoking units to use. The Viper and Swarm Host, for example, are perfect examples of a anti-a-move unit. You have to think about how to use them, and they add a level of difficult up toward the Terran level, while Terran will hopefully be bumped down a smidge by the Warhound and Battle Hellion.
My favorite parts of this thread are the people who are still trying to shit on HOTS units before they're even in beta stage, and the people who are seriously taking Cloud as banner carrier to try and proclaim that the max skill level in SC2 is already almost met.
Are you kidding me guys? Seriously. You have to be.
Good fucking job. You are from an english speaking country and you can't even understand Cloud's point. What he meant was that blizzard is trying to lower the skill ceiling of terran which, right now, is way way way higher than the other two races. Funnily enough, the fact that he couldn't even qualify for WCS Italy proved Cloud's point. He is Terran and probably he also is the best italian player but still he couldn't qualify. Who knows why, maybe because of the other two races ? But hey, it's ok. You SC2 fanboy are living in a dream world. Can't wait to see your reaction when your bubble will be bursted down =) .
Carlo, I love you. You are one of the few progamer in the scene right now who always tell the truth about the balance in the game. It really sucks that people still talk shit to you, because you don't deserve it. Keep it up.
i have to agree with Violet on the swarm host..and it confuses me how one of the major ideas behind such a unit is to help with zerg's weakness in their ability to end games by attacking when they're ahead.. like vs marine/medivac such a unit is borderline useless.. in their current state spending resources on swarm hosts to try to finish a terran off would be counterproductive. well if I'm correct and this is an issue, I'm sure it'll be resolved after the game's played enough, just surprised still that this idea is the one that survived all the cuts.
Being a pro-gamer doesn't mean you know anything about how to design a game which Cloud proves in fucking spades. All this "a move friendly" BS is just proof of that - the most basic use of units in this game is moving them from a to b in a group conducive to winning an engagement. Every single unit barring casters with no useful attack is capable of being used as an A move unit. This is true of all strategy games - in fact in virtually every single strategy game, THE GUY WITH MORE STUFF THAT DOES MORE DAMAGE FUCKING WINS THE FIGHT. It is remarkable, for example, that both SC2 and SCBW are balanced in such a way that sometimes, this isn't actually true.
Single target A move units (hi Warhound) are crazy easy to balance. It's a game of numbers and since there's no multiplication implicit to a Warhound deathball they scale linearly with the only limits being the quantized number of shots required to destroy a particular unit. If the problem with the Warhound is that it's too easy to A move, is the problem the Warhound itself (ie taking too many shots to kill and thus absorbing fire for higher DPS units) or is it the time of availability? Is it the sheer damage output? Does it fill a niche other units don't fill? Does it have a reason for being there?
It's only when you get into multi-target damage that a unit becomes really hard to balance. When people go on about A moving, they're not talking about A moving. They're talking about units that are strong enough to survive without being microed against unit groups of equal strength with casters that cannot kill them. There are only two real a move deathballs in the game - Archon Colossus Stalker Chargelot and Infestor Corruptor Broodlord. Both of these have direct counters in the Widow Mine and the Tempest - the two units everyone is slagging off left and right. Every other deathball either has positional weaknesses or involves compositions that take forever to build up/regenerate. There's no such weakness for either of these deathballs - Protoss can easily reinforce with Warpgates for 3/4 of their main units as opposed to say a Mech deathball where you have to take up tech lab factory time to produce all but basic units.
The only worry I have for HoTS is with tanks and I think Blizzard will realise that themselves.
No, Cloud. David Kim is not an idiot. David Kim is one of the designers of a multi-million copy selling game and he is responsible for your fucking career. Show some goddamn respect.
On August 22 2012 02:01 Zelniq wrote: i have to agree with Violet on the swarm host..and it confuses me how one of the major ideas behind such a unit is to help with zerg's weakness in their ability to end games by attacking when they're ahead.. like vs marine/medivac such a unit is borderline useless.. in their current state spending resources on swarm hosts to try to finish a terran off would be counterproductive. well if I'm correct and this is an issue, I'm sure it'll be resolved after the game's played enough, just surprised still that this idea is the one that survived all the cuts.
I actually quite like the swarm host, it gives additional free tanking units against siege fire. I can imagine top Zergs syncing their army to attack with the spawning of the units and stuff like that, similarly to how infested Terrans are used against tanks currently.
I see their main potential utility being to siege up Protoss bases though, a way to chip away at the walls without committing all your units to being forcefielded. Actually one of the few units I quite enjoy the concept of
EPT
