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On August 22 2012 01:21 Swift118 wrote:
I do not care for Cloud's attitude, but putting that aside he made a great point amongst all the QQ and abuse. Instead of making Protoss and Zerg units harder to control they are veering towards making Terran more a-move friendly. As much from some lame personal point of view I would like Terran unit comps a bit easier to control, I would prefer other races having harder armies to control to make the game better.
I have become so tired of this argument. Both zerg and protoss are getting units that require multi tasking, micro and control. Niether the swarm host or oracle are going to do much good hanging out in a base. These units need to be out on the map, doing things to be effective. The tempest will do a protoss play no good hanging out with the main army. The viper may have a place in the main army for zerg, but is spell caster, which requires micro.
The battle hellion will likely do a lot to solve the terran’s a-move fears. From all reports, these units seem to be best use to intercept or block opposing melee units. They rely mostly on positing and map awareness to incept incoming charges. By simply existing and being able to combat melee units, this will make the game harder for protoss and zerg using those units. If you think of the units as pikemen in an old medieval army, they seem pretty ok. Hopefully this will mean more flanking. But the best part about the battle hellion is that it can just transform in a hellion to harass, making them more micro intensive.
Terran having a thick unit to tank some damage on the front line is not a bad thing. Their lack of a front line fighter has been one of the weaknesses of the race for a while. The fact that it can also become a fast moving harassment unit will mean far more interesting games.
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On August 22 2012 02:05 Evangelist wrote:
No, Cloud. David Kim is not an idiot. David Kim is one of the designers of a multi-million copy selling game and he is responsible for your fucking career. Show some goddamn respect.
Yeah, Cloud get it right! Its Dustin Browder that needs to be patched, nerfed, and pulled from the game.
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On August 22 2012 02:01 Zelniq wrote:
i have to agree with Violet on the swarm host..and it confuses me how one of the major ideas behind such a unit is to help with zerg's weakness in their ability to end games by attacking when they're ahead.. like vs marine/medivac such a unit is borderline useless.. in their current state spending resources on swarm hosts to try to finish a terran off would be counterproductive. well if I'm correct and this is an issue, I'm sure it'll be resolved after the game's played enough, just surprised still that this idea is the one that survived all the cuts. I feel more like the swarm host is a unit to have as support in battles, but can also offer some tools to break someone when crippled. So you won't get one/some to break someone, but you may be able to break someone by having one/some. i think it must be seen as a way to put on extra pressure when turtling is the opponents' most comfortable position.
I actually like it, to be honest. Especially against protoss, i feel like i have to commit heavily, or not attack at all. This is a kind of middle road.
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@ Evangelist
Well said!
It makes me cringe hearing about those "a move" units that supposedly don't take skill and all that.
Just because a unit is simply by design doesn't mean the unit won't provide enough versatility nor that that there's no skill required in using them.
I mean is anyone going to argue that the Marine, about as simple as a unit as it gets, is for "a move"-noobs?
This is a real time strategy game after all, you can do insanely much with even very simple units.
e:
Also, it's funny how so many people applaud Cloud for calling him an idiot. It's probably the same folks that would tear their hair out when they would hear one of the Devs call a progamer, e.g. Cloud, an idiot.
And no, just because it's Cloud I do not think it's it's appropriate of him calling David Kim an idiot. If behavior like that would be the norm there were fewer meetings with the Dev team.
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On August 22 2012 00:01 DougJDempsey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 23:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
so they're going to maybe just revert the BC nerf? Won't it be a bit too strong though...? They're already quite strong, and, especially compared to SC1, they see quite a lot of play for being so high tech, especially for terran, who usually sticks with mostly bio or mech units. Didn't they nerf BCs because of that 1 base BC rush build in TvP? (And seems it would work even better in TvZ and TvT too lol) they used to do damage in burst however, which was clearly stronger in the long run instead of small chunks that get worst as the opponent's units get more armor upgrades. and where do they "see quite a lot of play"? unless you are confusing them with brood lords, i havent seen that much BC play in pro games.
Well I mean, compared to SC1, BCs are easier to incorporate now and synergize better with the new compositions/units.
Ah, you mean like in BW? Well it wouldn't directly affect the damage then, only affecting the scaling. From the interview it sounded like they were going to increase the actual damage and/or rate of fire.
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On August 22 2012 02:15 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 02:01 Zelniq wrote:
i have to agree with Violet on the swarm host..and it confuses me how one of the major ideas behind such a unit is to help with zerg's weakness in their ability to end games by attacking when they're ahead.. like vs marine/medivac such a unit is borderline useless.. in their current state spending resources on swarm hosts to try to finish a terran off would be counterproductive. well if I'm correct and this is an issue, I'm sure it'll be resolved after the game's played enough, just surprised still that this idea is the one that survived all the cuts. I feel more like the swarm host is a unit to have as support in battles, but can also offer some tools to break someone when crippled. So you won't get one/some to break someone, but you may be able to break someone by having one/some. i think it must be seen as a way to put on extra pressure when turtling is the opponents' most comfortable position. I actually like it, to be honest. Especially against protoss, i feel like i have to commit heavily, or not attack at all. This is a kind of middle road.
The swarm host is going to be one of the harder units to figure out. It is a unit that is going to be dependant on the other races agression, map distance and how well defended they are. They are a good concept, but you need to get them with an army to support and protect them, while also knowing where to deploy them.
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I don't understand why Cloud lashes out against David Kim. Because Cloud doesn't understand David Kim's methods doesn't mean that David Kim is an idiot.
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Whoever posted that the widow mine has been changed to be largely single-unit damage with little splash...
If that's real (source?) I hardly see the point of it at all. So disappointed.
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On August 22 2012 02:17 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:
@ Evangelist
Well said!
It makes me cringe hearing about those "a move" units that supposedly don't take skill and all that.
Just because a unit is simply by design doesn't mean the unit won't provide enough versatility nor that that there's no skill required in using them.
I mean is anyone going to argue that the Marine, about as simple as a unit as it gets, is for "a move"-noobs?
This is a real time strategy game after all, you can do insanely much with even very simple units.
The marine is interesting because it interacts well with formations. You can choose between having a concave, a ball, having them split up, having a few units ahead to snipe. This works because marines are small, cheap and fast. A warhound which is big and hard to control doesn't function like that; area of effect won't kill it, the pathfinding as such will always have it in an optimal position and they're too expensive to risk in any position other than at the back of your army, similar to immortals. Even David Kim admits that the warhound is made to give casual players a chance to win with a mech composition, although not with mech style gameplay.
And there is no point in saying that this is just an alpha build and that everything will be changed. Blizzard has never demonstrated that they particularly care about the opinions of pro gamers. If you listen to any of their explanations for why they introduced certain units or why they scrapped them, it's in almost all cases because casuals had problems with something. When there are complaints about terran being too hard to play compared to protoss and zerg they don't use the opportunity granted by the expansion to fundamentally rework the respective difficulty of the races; rather leave the existing game intact and add a few units to terran to give them easier play styles.
A lot of units from Wings of Liberty never worked out too well. Examples are the roach, colossus and corruptor. It is obvious that if Heart of the Swarm is to be seen as a real step in their commitment to creating the best e-sports game possible, that they would remove or rework a lot of those units. After all, they do have two full years of development time, so don't tell me they can't come up with more than just a few units. I think it's rather the case that they are planning to cash in on whatever popularity Wings still has, that's why they are unwilling to remove any units people might possibly be attached to, even if it doesn't create the most ideal game. (they will find ways to keep the carrier, don't worry)
The game currently is obviously broken, it is too volatile at the top and a lot of the match-ups are not anywhere close to an optimal state. Over time a lot of match-ups seemed to have regressed and become less interesting. I'll admit to enjoying the game a lot still, but my enthusiasm has waned a great deal. I personally don't see how I can follow several more years of e.g. turtle into deathball into win for both zerg and protoss, much less if they decide to give terran similar play styles. I hope that the influx of KeSPA players and the release of Heart of the Swarm will bring some excitement and improve both the viewing and playing experience, but given that Blizzard has constantly demonstrated they favor short-term popularity by appealing to the lowest common denominator over facilitating an optimal e-sports experience, I have great doubts whether it will be successful.
I know I'm being a bit unfair to Blizzard. Browder and Kim obviously genuinely want this game to succeed, Heart of the Swarm will likely improve the scene and it's already a pretty fun game. Nevertheless, it could be so much better which is obvious if you compare SC2 to Brood War or even Warcraft 3. Maybe if Blizzard was not so constrained by being a part of a big corporation that's chasing maximum profits and by being unwilling to take risks by deviating from their winning formula, then things would have been genuinely different. To be honest I'm not sure why no smaller developers have bothered creating an RTS title that is more suited to being an e-sport, but maybe it will happen in the future. After all, a game does not really need cinematics, a 3D engine, a large single player campaign, an ambitious social networking environment to be successful as a game, with a focus on creating interesting compelling gameplay. Brood War would have had roughly the same amount of success if it had none of those things, just the multiplayer experience and all these additions are simply about corporate profits, not about a commitment to e-sports.
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On August 22 2012 02:21 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 02:15 Yorbon wrote:On August 22 2012 02:01 Zelniq wrote:
i have to agree with Violet on the swarm host..and it confuses me how one of the major ideas behind such a unit is to help with zerg's weakness in their ability to end games by attacking when they're ahead.. like vs marine/medivac such a unit is borderline useless.. in their current state spending resources on swarm hosts to try to finish a terran off would be counterproductive. well if I'm correct and this is an issue, I'm sure it'll be resolved after the game's played enough, just surprised still that this idea is the one that survived all the cuts. I feel more like the swarm host is a unit to have as support in battles, but can also offer some tools to break someone when crippled. So you won't get one/some to break someone, but you may be able to break someone by having one/some. i think it must be seen as a way to put on extra pressure when turtling is the opponents' most comfortable position. I actually like it, to be honest. Especially against protoss, i feel like i have to commit heavily, or not attack at all. This is a kind of middle road. The swarm host is going to be one of the harder units to figure out. It is a unit that is going to be dependant on the other races agression, map distance and how well defended they are. They are a good concept, but you need to get them with an army to support and protect them, while also knowing where to deploy them. Agreed.
I am especially interested in mid game roach aggression with host support. (dependent on swarm host gas cost).
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@ Evengelist
Protoss and Zerg are mainly "1a" units. While Terran absolutely has to micro almost everything. Giving Terran a few "1a" units and giving Protoss and Zerg micro units only levels the field. Z&P have A while Terran has B. Now Terran as A and P&Z have B. Same AB thing going on.
Its not like one race is getting anything more special than another.
On August 22 2012 02:38 MetalPanda wrote:
I'm so tired of Archon toilet/Neural Parasite battles in PvZ as a spectator, please remove that!
And Dustin Browder doesn't "like" positional play.
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@ Grumbels
Talk about exaggeration. I don't even know what else to say when I look at your second paragraph.
Apparently it's all bullshit? The whole balance team is a complex fake?
Dustin Browder's GDC presentation a hoax?
This game is for casual players after all, if only you warned us earlier -.-
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I'm so tired of Archon toilet/Neural Parasite battles in PvZ as a spectator, please remove that!
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On August 22 2012 02:38 MetalPanda wrote:
I'm so tired of Archon toilet/Neural Parasite battles in PvZ as a spectator, please remove that!
I was excited for that to be gone but they put it back NOOOOOO 
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On August 22 2012 02:32 PauseBreak wrote:@ Evengelist Protoss and Zerg are mainly "1a" units. While Terran absolutely has to micro almost everything. Giving Terran a few "1a" units and giving Protoss and Zerg micro units only levels the field. Z&P have A while Terran has B. Now Terran as A and P&Z have B. Same AB thing going on. Its not like one race is getting anything more special than another. Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 02:38 MetalPanda wrote:
I'm so tired of Archon toilet/Neural Parasite battles in PvZ as a spectator, please remove that! And Dustin Browder doesn't "like" positional play.
You have to be Terran :D, i agree with evangelist, ClouDs reaction is immature.
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I find it hard to find a interview with cloud where he wasn't complaining about something about the game. Cloud grow up your opinions do come fort out of your negativity instead of rational thoughts. Already calling the game more noob friendly is just too prematurely, it was the same as Ret said in sc2 you don't need micro before he really understood the game.
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Northern Ireland27332 Posts
On August 22 2012 02:28 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 02:17 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:
@ Evangelist
Well said!
It makes me cringe hearing about those "a move" units that supposedly don't take skill and all that.
Just because a unit is simply by design doesn't mean the unit won't provide enough versatility nor that that there's no skill required in using them.
I mean is anyone going to argue that the Marine, about as simple as a unit as it gets, is for "a move"-noobs?
This is a real time strategy game after all, you can do insanely much with even very simple units.
The marine is interesting because it interacts well with formations. You can choose between having a concave, a ball, having them split up, having a few units ahead to snipe. This works because marines are small, cheap and fast. A warhound which is big and hard to control doesn't function like that; area of effect won't kill it, the pathfinding as such will always have it in an optimal position and they're too expensive to risk in any position other than at the back of your army, similar to immortals. Even David Kim admits that the warhound is made to give casual players a chance to win with a mech composition, although not with mech style gameplay. And there is no point in saying that this is just an alpha build and that everything will be changed. Blizzard has never demonstrated that they particularly care about the opinions of pro gamers. If you listen to any of their explanations for why they introduced certain units or why they scrapped them, it's in almost all cases because casuals had problems with something. When there are complaints about terran being too hard to play compared to protoss and zerg they don't use the opportunity granted by the expansion to fundamentally rework the respective difficulty of the races; rather leave the existing game intact and add a few units to terran to give them easier play styles. A lot of units from Wings of Liberty never worked out too well. Examples are the roach, colossus and corruptor. It is obvious that if Heart of the Swarm is to be seen as a real step in their commitment to creating the best e-sports game possible, that they would remove or rework a lot of those units. After all, they do have two full years of development time, so don't tell me they can't come up with more than just a few units. I think it's rather the case that they are planning to cash in on whatever popularity Wings still has, that's why they are unwilling to remove any units people might possibly be attached to, even if it doesn't create the most ideal game. (they will find ways to keep the carrier, don't worry) The game currently is obviously broken, it is too volatile at the top and a lot of the match-ups are not anywhere close to an optimal state. Over time a lot of match-ups seemed to have regressed and become less interesting. I'll admit to enjoying the game a lot still, but my enthusiasm has waned a great deal. I personally don't see how I can follow several more years of e.g. turtle into deathball into win for both zerg and protoss, much less if they decide to give terran similar play styles. I hope that the influx of KeSPA players and the release of Heart of the Swarm will bring some excitement and improve both the viewing and playing experience, but given that Blizzard has constantly demonstrated they favor short-term popularity by appealing to the lowest common denominator over facilitating an optimal e-sports experience, I have great doubts whether it will be successful. I know I'm being a bit unfair to Blizzard. Browder and Kim obviously genuinely want this game to succeed, Heart of the Swarm will likely improve the scene and it's already a pretty fun game. Nevertheless, it could be so much better which is obvious if you compare SC2 to Brood War or even Warcraft 3. Maybe if Blizzard was not so constrained by being a part of a big corporation chasing profits and unwilling to take risks by deviating from their winning formula things would have been different. To be honest I'm not sure why no smaller developers have bothered creating a title that is more suited to being an e-sport, but maybe it will happen in the future. After all, a game does not really need cinematics, a 3D engine, a large single player campaign, an ambitious social networking environment to be successful as a game, with a focus on creating interesting compelling gameplay. Brood War would have had roughly the same amount of success if it had none of those things, just the multiplayer experience and all these additions are simply about corporate profits, not about a commitment to e-sports.
Well played sir, excellent post. Don't know why you bothered given that people will not even bother to read it in all likelihood and continue to spout inaccuracies based on their assumptions on why people don't like the direction that HoTS appears to be going.
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* The Battle Cruisers speed boost will be removed, Battle Cruisers will have increased damage good. They were really making the same mistake they they did with void rays. A flying unit that hits air and ground with good combat characteristics is not supposed to be fast or it will be a super mutalisk. Now Battlecruiser is not supposed to fit that role.
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On August 22 2012 02:58 Wombat_NI wrote:
Well played sir, excellent post. Don't know why you bothered given that people will not even bother to read it in all likelihood and continue to spout inaccuracies based on their assumptions on why people don't like the direction that HoTS appears to be going.
His post isn't particularly good at all. It's all based around the assumption that Wings of Liberty is somehow too volatile and has too much randomness, too little skill. I assume this is because he is a BW elitist who thinks everything was better in BW. People never bother to check stats.
Wanna guess who has a higher total winrate, Taeja or Fantasy (both at the top of TLPD, Korean Sc2/BW respectively)? Taeja. 4 time winners the OSL? None. GSL? 1 in 2 years.
Given SC2 is an INCREDIBLY new game by BW standards, the fact that it's so STABLE is incredible. People just like spouting shit without backing any of it up.
User was warned for this post
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EPT
