EPTProgamer Opinions on Heart of the Swarm - Page 4
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Dustin_Butthead
36 Posts
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nAgeDitto
United States428 Posts
I'm sure a LOT will be changed/has been changed and the 'negative' feed back is what blizzard wanted/needed. Big changes will come in beta as well most likely. | ||
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johnny123
521 Posts
On August 21 2012 21:54 BobMcJohnson wrote: Well it's stupid to complain about numbers when the beta is not out, but complaining about concepts/designs is totally ok imo. The warhound, no matter how you tweak it's numbers is stupid. It's a 1a marauder that comes out of factory, it's dumb and uninteresting. I'm not sure why Blizzard is so focused on making tanks not viable :/ The initial warhound (cheaper/smaller replacement to the thor) that we saw at MLG was more interesting than the current design. They changed his role from "mech anti-air" to a dumb amove anti mech/protoss unit. Actually it seems like blizzard has an approach of "Z and P are too easy to play, T is too hard" (ease of play, not balance, don't jump on me please :<) and are trying to dumb down terran to equalize the ground, when they should be fixing it the other way around (making P/Z more complex). And once again, this is completely a concept/design problem - something that is stupid regardless of the stats they give to the units, which is why we can discuss it before having the beta available. all i actually really hear about people saying the warhound is a-move and dumb down game , is basically the same when sc2 just came out and people were saying MBS, Auto-mine, auto surround, better pathing. All these things people were claiming would make the game really noob. We have people like idra during the early days of sc2 saying people will reach the skill cap fast and everybody will be at the same level, yet idra cant fucking win a tournament to save his life, 20% win ratio this year. Such a fucking noob game huh. Ive heard it all, X situation is going to make Y situation dumb and to eZ. . Yet you have mvp , the most winning-est player of all time , shit all on the faces of people claiming the game will take no skill. If it takes no skill, go compete against mvp in the gsl, Show us Sc2 takes no skill. How many people actually even have what it takes to win 1 gsl? Im saying all this because before sc2 was released, the same retarded prophecies were pro-claimed. Ez game, Dumb downed blah blah. Yet we only have 2-3 non koreans that can actually compete with the koreans. Every tournament is korean dominance. Such a fucking noob game. Give HOTS a chance. The worst thing that could happen to hots is blizzard listening to you idiots, and removing everything that should be fun and changing it into a bland boring fucking game that is so called balanced yet not fun, aka Wings of liberty. With every new unit proposed being rejected , People seem content with playing Wings of liberity till the end of time. I disagree with this, we have gone from standard 100K viewers for tournaments to a mere 50K tops now in the space of less than a year. Without drastic changes in HOTS, I see starcraft 2 just like starcraft 1 within 2 years.It will basically be for an extreme niche of 10,000 or less odd folks, while League of legends and dota 2 or whatever just keep getting bigger. The game needs to be dumbed down for the casual to enjoy at a noob level, but at the same time, it can also be very deep like a game of chess that is impossible to win against somebody who is good and knows all the moves. From what i gather, this is how people want HOTS to look like, 3 years for this! TERRAN People want the warhound removed. So realistically what people want to see from terran in HOTS is only a single new unit addition ( if it can even be called that) aka the battlehellion. The widow mine will also get removed when it hits shelfs, Either to good or to bad will be the arguement. and terran has already lost the speed boost on the battlecruiser . So terran in HOTS = 1 new unit Protoss -People find orcale gimmicky, and to noob friendly because apparently its a single click. they want it removed -People want the a-move carrier to stay in instead of a tempest that actually brings forth a different strategic dynamic never seen before in rts games, We want a-move Protoss for HOTS = 1 new unit Mothership Core, everything else removed , carrier back in Zerg -there are claims of the swarm host having no place in sc2, there are claims of viper pull ability destroying the stratgic positioning of enemy units in the game, they are claims Abduct is broken as fuck. = viper to be removed, swarm host to be removed Zerg for Hots = brand new creep tumor animation with 1 new unit. The hydralisk . If people got what they wanted, HOTS would be pointless to release. | ||
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furo
Germany449 Posts
Cloud is honest and everyone knows that controlling terran units had been alot harder than toss/zerg units. bliz decides to give terran a good a-move army, they should rather make the game for P and Z harder. now i get quoted as a whiner because i repeat Cloud's statement, but i can live with it :D | ||
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krell
United States109 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 21 2012 20:56 NATO wrote: Lol, a toss player complaining about detection? They have the best detection in the game, combined with the best cloaked unit in the game. I think is was more to the fact that the detection is married to a specific tech tree, making the other tech tree less viable as an opening. The lack of detection has always been the riskist part of stargate openings, which have some of protoss's best harassment options. It is a good thing to ad. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10866 Posts
The Warhound sound so ugly... | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On August 21 2012 22:30 Plansix wrote: I think is was more to the fact that the detection is married to a specific tech tree, making the other tech tree less viable as an opening. The lack of detection has always been the riskist part of stargate openings, which have some of protoss's best harassment options. It is a good thing to ad. That makes a lot of sense. | ||
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
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Danzo
2820 Posts
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
Carriers are fine against mech already, a few changes and they'd be just as good in HotS I expect. | ||
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xPabt
226 Posts
On August 21 2012 21:08 Wildmoon wrote: Well, I think the gap between Cloud's and Mvp's skill are wider then we think.:D Cloud didn't mean skill cap he meant skill floor. skill caps are unreachable and impossible to know. skill floor is low amount of effort going into unit control producing big results. No race should be able to amove all in one hotkey and then use a couple spells and come out ahead. lower level pvt is like this. hive tech zerg vs no ravens zvt is like this and now blizzard is making terran able to do it in tvp with warhound battle helion and helion thor banshee in tvz will be more amove friendly because helions will do more damage to roaches, make lings absolutely terrible and tank more damage for the thors making tanks being seiged in good position less of a requirement. Swarm host is a good unit because it requires setting up and tactics. Battle helion is ok but thats probably terran bias. I think with a towned down warhound BH is ok. Warhound should have less dps and fuck an auto cast spell. The missle thing should be like the corruption spell on corrupters has to be clicked onto every unit. Now instead of herp derp 1a warhound destroying toss and tank lines you have to micro the fuckin thing to get full effect. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
On August 21 2012 22:18 furo wrote: Cloud is not a whiner. whiners just repeat the whines of others cause they suck. Cloud is honest and everyone knows that controlling terran units had been alot harder than toss/zerg units. bliz decides to give terran a good a-move army, they should rather make the game for P and Z harder. now i get quoted as a whiner because i repeat Cloud's statement, but i can live with it :D well hard micro means you can't be elsewhere on the map, so a move units allow you way more multitasking. Also Protoss and Zerg have fine units that excel with micro as well. So i like the decision of keeping those things in and expanding it on every race, it means the battles will be more spread out and in multiple positions. If we just had bio like units that have to be taken at hand to be good, we would only see action in one place. Protoss vs fungal is probably a good example. Fungal deletes your commands ... so fungaling stalkers means the ai will choose the next target in the priority list, broodlings, you really have to hold the hand of your army while fighting fungal. For me the worst part about fungal is the command break it does, the rest is fine. Of course if you could order a blink or movement for when the fungal duration would end, the spell would become alot weaker. But with you having to be there the moment the fungal ends and everytime a new one is cast, you only have a few seconds to do something or your army will go and fight neverending broodlings. Exception is of course if you have enough units to kill the broodlings, for example mech unsieged tanks and hellions will destroy broodlings to fast, so thors won't get thrown off fighting broodlords. Colossus also work good at removing this ai priority. Funny thing is the biggest issue with mech in WoL was the lack of armor upgrades for a long time and the problem that people sieged their tanks, while in some situations unsieged tanks would be so much stronger. So we wouldn't really need new a move units. Though a cheap tanking unit is something that was really missing. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 21 2012 21:38 johnny123 wrote: you know, there is a unit called a void ray, you know there is a unit called the mother ship core, you know there is a unit called the tempest. For how long has terran been using an inferior army (bio) and going up against mass chargelot/archon/storm/colosus/stalkers and still managed to win by microing their heart out. Protoss will find a way to win, Old strategys will make a return ( 3 gate void ray all in) , and mech based pushes especially if tried early game lack any sort of Anti air capablitites, which looks like yummy food for Tempests. If you want to get aggressive with tempest, have a recall ready. You say protoss will have hard time early game defending pushes, while you seem to ignore the mother ship core cannon that does 60 damage at 13 range. More like good bye early aggression you mean. I just hate when people come to conclusions so fast, Like how you are saying Oh ma god, broken warhound blah blah. I can predict a pvt matchup right now in hots based of what i know /having played the HOTS custom map many times with my friends. Protoss will more than likely always opt for an Stargate opener ( with orcale) and after orcale scouts , if mech get tempest or slam down a robo for mass immortal/colosus, if bio carry on as usual threw the tech tree with robo or templar archives. If you want to be cheeky and you know mech is coming for sure, 3 gate void ray bust. Its way to early to just wright off certain units claiming massive imbalance. And what level do you play on to judge me being incompetent? I talked to HasuObs, HeRoMarine, I played myself. How can it be a unit being just a bit cheaper than a stalker has more range, more damage is faster and has a ton more HP. Also the Tempest does cost 300/200. Lacking anti air? Try warhound + bio, its insanely strong. If you wish we can play the custom map so I can show you my point. I'm Terran player myself, I don't really mind having such a strong unit, I just made the point that I believe its too strong for its cost. | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
One of the most important things to be aware of in any protoss build is when you can get detection, specifically against terran and protoss. Because the only form of mobile detection for protoss is married to the robotics facility, it has really limited the power of stargate builds. The cost of three phoenixes in gas is greater than the cost of both the robotics facility and an observer. This means that a really tight stargate build will have a huge gap with no detection. The same can be said for all three races with different aspects of the game. Terran lack good map presence if they are expanding and do a lot of their scouting through aggression. The widow mine may help with this, since it allows them to “scout” the same way overlords and pylons. It’s not all about DPS and end game units. There are holes in each race that are more passive and would do huge things for the game if they were filled. | ||
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stfouri
Finland272 Posts
On August 21 2012 22:48 SarcasmMonster wrote: This sounds weird but shouldn't Cloud be insulting Browder, not Kim? His complaint is about unit design, but Kim is the balance director. This. Cloud just got owned. | ||
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MVega
763 Posts
On August 21 2012 22:48 SarcasmMonster wrote: This sounds weird but shouldn't Cloud be insulting Browder, not Kim? His complaint is about unit design, but Kim is the balance director. Was wondering about that too. Honestly though we really need to see Blizzard's implementations of these units/changes (as in not base it off a custom map) over the course of a decent number of games over a decent period of time - Not just the short periods of hands on time we've gotten so far. Then we can start figuring out what actually doesn't work and needs changing. Complaining about it before that point is kind of foolish. | ||
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kasumimi
Greece460 Posts
99.9% of the SC2 community front-men (players and casters) suck up to Blizzard, even when Blizz is clearly doing a poor job in balancing the game. The hype is already withering and pro-matches are becoming less and less interesting to watch. HOTS will continue in the same state of mind of poor game design. Day9, Incontrol for example never ever make negative comments about balance and the poor design that is seeping all over SC2. On the contrary, they try to sell and boring, one-sided, broken matchup as if it's a masterpiece of high-level play and player talent. Not all viewers are bronze and silver anymore though. Too bad, because if I had the power to influence the game for the better I would do it in a split second, even if it meant hurting my viewership and having negative impact on my e-fame. But it would be a real investment for the game's longevity. I guess making a few dollars while the hype is still burning takes priority  Again, props to Cloud for being the only individual in the pro-scene that has some real e-balls. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 21 2012 22:48 SarcasmMonster wrote: This sounds weird but shouldn't Cloud be insulting Browder, not Kim? His complaint is about unit design, but Kim is the balance director. Clouds may have some complaints, but his ability to articulate them is pretty lack luster. Part of me wants to vomit blood every time someone says “skill ceiling”, since is such a vague term and concept. I don’t know how a designer can measure something so abstract as the amount of skill someone could obtain in their game, or plan for it in design. The only option is to create units and then adjust them as more and more people use them, which is what Blizzard is doing. Until they get massive feed back from thousands of players, all of these units are going to be in a prototype state. That’s why I don’t care about any of the changes at this time. Blizzard is adopting a “hey, lets try this and see how it feels” approach to the beta. People should be more excited about the open process and voice concerns. It is so clear that nothing is set in stone and we will have to dig deep into the beta before we even glimpse the final build. Also, calling someone stupid isn’t exactly a page out of Chaucer. | ||
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