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Northern Ireland25315 Posts
On August 21 2012 20:56 NATO wrote:
Lol, a toss player complaining about detection? They have the best detection in the game, combined with the best cloaked unit in the game.
It's a legitimate point when you consider how PvP functions, for example going Stargate is a very risky play if they've hidden DT tech or something, it's a bit coinflippy which a lot of people dislike
Cloud is so damn cool.
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Cloud best whiner, it's sad to be from Italy in these cases
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Northern Ireland25315 Posts
On August 21 2012 20:59 Arpayon wrote:
Cloud best whiner, it's sad to be from Italy in these cases
I feel Cloud is mischaracterised as a whiner, he's a bit blunt but he doesn't tend to excuse his own losses by using balance whine or whatever. He just has issues with the direction the game is going in a design sense, and some of his criticisms are pretty legitimate even if you disagree with them
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On August 21 2012 20:57 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:56 NATO wrote:
Lol, a toss player complaining about detection? They have the best detection in the game, combined with the best cloaked unit in the game. It's a legitimate point when you consider how PvP functions, for example going Stargate is a very risky play if they've hidden DT tech or something, it's a bit coinflippy which a lot of people dislike Cloud is so damn cool.
I'm not protoss player but it seems to be a problem in PvT when vikings snipe observers and ghost can run free with cloak.
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On August 21 2012 20:32 Garmer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:26 oxxo wrote:On August 21 2012 20:03 xrapture wrote:
Cloud does bring up good points, though worded quite immaturely. Why not make the game harder? Core units and solid mechanics should be the determining factor of games. Adding all these super low skill cap, press- a- button- and- everything dies- units really makes me sad. Seems silly for people to complain about 'low skill cap' when they aren't even close to the top of the game. It's how you use the units. If it were as easy as '1A win' then there would be more people at Mvp's level. Also, how are Widow Mines, Tempests, Oracles, Vipers, or Swarm Hosts '1A'? They aren't. The only units being added that are are Warhounds and Battle Hellions... and T already has plenty of high skill cap stuff. they are more close than you think, the skill cap of this game isn't reaching automation 2000 level, i think that all the current pro(mvp drg, mkp), are not too far from reaching the sc2 skill cap, they are very close to reaching the HUMAN possibility skill cap
Well, I think the gap between Cloud's and Mvp's skill are wider then we think.:D
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On August 21 2012 21:03 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:59 Arpayon wrote:
Cloud best whiner, it's sad to be from Italy in these cases I feel Cloud is mischaracterised as a whiner, he's a bit blunt but he doesn't tend to excuse his own losses by using balance whine or whatever.
That's not the ClouD I know and love.
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On August 21 2012 21:03 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:59 Arpayon wrote:
Cloud best whiner, it's sad to be from Italy in these cases I feel Cloud is mischaracterised as a whiner, he's a bit blunt but he doesn't tend to excuse his own losses by using balance whine or whatever. He just has issues with the direction the game is going in a design sense, and some of his criticisms are pretty legitimate even if you disagree with them
He does. He is known for publicly claiming that bad players can succeed in the game; known for spiting on the work of casters; making up excuses for not being able to qualify in WCS Italy even though he is supposed to be the best player there, and all that while not being at the top of the scene.
It's fine to express critics but being arrogant while doing so is unacceptable when oneself isn't at the top of the pyramid.
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Thank you ClouD for being a baller and telling the truth, while others just hide and tell what Blizzard wants to hear
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On August 21 2012 21:09 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 21:03 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 21 2012 20:59 Arpayon wrote:
Cloud best whiner, it's sad to be from Italy in these cases I feel Cloud is mischaracterised as a whiner, he's a bit blunt but he doesn't tend to excuse his own losses by using balance whine or whatever. He just has issues with the direction the game is going in a design sense, and some of his criticisms are pretty legitimate even if you disagree with them He does. He is known for publicly claiming that bad players can succeed in the game; known for spiting on the work of casters; making up excuses for not being able to qualify in WCS Italy even though he is supposed to be the best player there, and all that while not being at the top of the scene. It's fine to express critics but being arrogant while doing so is unacceptable when oneself isn't at the top of the pyramid.
It's kinda weird when there's a guy who can't even compete at the top level talking about the game having low skill cap. I know it's an opinion but well....
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The David Kim being stupid comment.  Yeah I agree with cloud about closing the skill gap. Terran doesn't have any thing new that's interesting micro wise. The Tempest is either really bad or really good, personally I am leaning towards gimmicky and bad.
I like them keeping the mothership as is, simply because it started out as this useless unit that noone used. But protoss were forced into adapting it, forcing it to get nerfed...and in HOTS spilliting vortex IMO was going to make it useless again.
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I agree with Cloud  He is so damn cool.
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Northern Ireland25315 Posts
On August 21 2012 21:09 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 21:03 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 21 2012 20:59 Arpayon wrote:
Cloud best whiner, it's sad to be from Italy in these cases I feel Cloud is mischaracterised as a whiner, he's a bit blunt but he doesn't tend to excuse his own losses by using balance whine or whatever. He just has issues with the direction the game is going in a design sense, and some of his criticisms are pretty legitimate even if you disagree with them He does. He is known for publicly claiming that bad players can succeed in the game; known for spiting on the work of casters; making up excuses for not being able to qualify in WCS Italy even though he is supposed to be the best player there, and all that while not being at the top of the scene. It's fine to express critics but being arrogant while doing so is unacceptable when oneself isn't at the top of the pyramid.
Isn't that what a lot of people on TL do? You can't have debate if the prerequisite is that you have to be a top, top player to do so.
He often opens his mouth and talks on an issue prior to actually articulating his thoughts properly and non-aggressively, but the crux of what he is saying often has validity to it.
1. He was right that bad players can beat superior players with far too much regularity. The great players never really exhibit the same kind of dominance that the BW greats did. It's not 100% terrible in this sense, the cream does tend to rise to the top in SC2 but there's a lot of volatility in the scene precisely because of this.
2. He was right about the casting situation, but in my view expressed it in too aggressive a manner. Cloud too thought this and apologised for how he articulated himself, but equally didn't back down from his points. There's a homogenised pool of casters that rarely changes, and some of those guys are increasingly getting a bit lazier in terms of following players and the general trends in the game. The money issue is a salient one here too, casters have a stable income in this sense, players have volatile incomes based on results. At the very least they should be expected to do their job to the best of their abilities
3. Haven't seen his excuses regarding WCS Korea, but I haven't personally seen him going 'TvP joke matchup, this guy's a scrub' when he's lost. The complaints I've heard from him occur in discussions regarding the game/trends, and not to discredit his actual opponents.
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On August 21 2012 20:26 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:03 xrapture wrote:
Cloud does bring up good points, though worded quite immaturely. Why not make the game harder? Core units and solid mechanics should be the determining factor of games. Adding all these super low skill cap, press- a- button- and- everything dies- units really makes me sad. Seems silly for people to complain about 'low skill cap' when they aren't even close to the top of the game. It's how you use the units. If it were as easy as '1A win' then there would be more people at Mvp's level. Also, how are Widow Mines, Tempests, Oracles, Vipers, or Swarm Hosts '1A'? They aren't. The only units being added that are are Warhounds and Battle Hellions... and T already has plenty of high skill cap stuff.
Wow, you completely missed the point that ClouD made.
What you said is the exact problem. Players like MVP and TaeJa do so well above the rest because Terran currently has the skill ceiling that the other two races don't; this is why we see a mass of good players in both of those races but no one is able to dominate with them. Warhounds and Battle Hellions are so effective and 1a friendly that they lower the skill cap necessary to do well with Terran, which is only bad for the game.
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This material is NASL sound-guy approved.
But seriously there hasn't been much more said than HotS custom didn't show so far.
Except of-course for the whining about additions to other races.
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It think whining about the skill cap, even for not top players is legitimate. Because skill caps affect the pro-scene so much. As others have said, inferior players more often beat superior players because of this. A bit of a changing pro-scene, with tournament winners changing often can be exciting, but to me it's more important that the skills of the superior players shine through.
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On August 21 2012 20:29 Type|NarutO wrote:
In my opinion the warhound needs to be changed. I played HOTS a couple of games and its just insanely strong AND cheap. I am a Terran player so I'd love such an imbalanced unit but the way its now it can't be put into the game.
I played against mouzMarine and we agreed that he'll mech while I'll play bio / biomech a 7 warhounds + bio completely stomped an even if not superior army that was fully put in place and sieged up. (I engaged, not him)
Warhounds have 220HP, 1 armor, range 7 and a movement speed that is faster than a stalker or any other Protoss unit that would be on the field early. It deals 23 base damage and has a haywire missile cooldown ability (6 seconds) which deals 30 damage to mechanical units and fires automatically. Thats 53 damage every 6 seconds + the normal damage in between. In addition to that, they cost 150/75 and build very fast (45) seconds with just the factory + techlab.
I think bio+warhounds (could replace viking possibly in the early phase) could pressure Protoss too much in the early game due to its speed and range. Also the warhound alone makes mech viable, which is not a bad thing but since battlehellion is insane vs zealots and warhounds against everything mechanical, mech seems to be insanely strong.
Well I'm looking forward to it, but I cannot believe its staying like it is now.
you know, there is a unit called a void ray, you know there is a unit called the mother ship core, you know there is a unit called the tempest.
For how long has terran been using an inferior army (bio) and going up against mass chargelot/archon/storm/colosus/stalkers and still managed to win by microing their heart out.
Protoss will find a way to win, Old strategys will make a return ( 3 gate void ray all in) , and mech based pushes especially if tried early game lack any sort of Anti air capablitites, which looks like yummy food for Tempests. If you want to get aggressive with tempest, have a recall ready. You say protoss will have hard time early game defending pushes, while you seem to ignore the mother ship core cannon that does 60 damage at 13 range. More like good bye early aggression you mean.
I just hate when people come to conclusions so fast, Like how you are saying Oh ma god, broken warhound blah blah.
I can predict a pvt matchup right now in hots based of what i know /having played the HOTS custom map many times with my friends. Protoss will more than likely always opt for an Stargate opener ( with orcale) and after orcale scouts , if mech get tempest or slam down a robo for mass immortal/colosus, if bio carry on as usual threw the tech tree with robo or templar archives. If you want to be cheeky and you know mech is coming for sure, 3 gate void ray bust.
Its way to early to just wright off certain units claiming massive imbalance.
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Cloud, you are a boss and my hero. That is all.
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On August 21 2012 20:56 NATO wrote:
Lol, a toss player complaining about detection? They have the best detection in the game, combined with the best cloaked unit in the game.
I'll take scans over observers any day of the week, thank you very much.
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On August 21 2012 19:58 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 19:54 Ballistixz wrote:The Mothership with ground only Vortex and Stasis field will be removed and replaced by the Wings of Liberty Mothership really hating this decision. mother ship should have been thrown in the garbage alone time ago tbh. i still have no idea why they decided to keep Mship but remove carrier. its not that hard to figure out a place/buff for the carrier. if they are going to keep the Mship i thought that removing vortex or making it ground only would be a good idea atleast, but keeping it the same as WoL Mship ontop of having the Mship core is facepalm worthy. such a flawed unit design. as it stands now the Mship is just one gigantic arbiter. Whine hard when the beta come out about this issue. Blizzard may change it.
I have been tempted to post on these subject often, but yea, this is always what stops me, i'll wait till beta, then we get to pass jugdement on blizzard
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On August 21 2012 21:38 johnny123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:29 Type|NarutO wrote:
In my opinion the warhound needs to be changed. I played HOTS a couple of games and its just insanely strong AND cheap. I am a Terran player so I'd love such an imbalanced unit but the way its now it can't be put into the game.
I played against mouzMarine and we agreed that he'll mech while I'll play bio / biomech a 7 warhounds + bio completely stomped an even if not superior army that was fully put in place and sieged up. (I engaged, not him)
Warhounds have 220HP, 1 armor, range 7 and a movement speed that is faster than a stalker or any other Protoss unit that would be on the field early. It deals 23 base damage and has a haywire missile cooldown ability (6 seconds) which deals 30 damage to mechanical units and fires automatically. Thats 53 damage every 6 seconds + the normal damage in between. In addition to that, they cost 150/75 and build very fast (45) seconds with just the factory + techlab.
I think bio+warhounds (could replace viking possibly in the early phase) could pressure Protoss too much in the early game due to its speed and range. Also the warhound alone makes mech viable, which is not a bad thing but since battlehellion is insane vs zealots and warhounds against everything mechanical, mech seems to be insanely strong.
Well I'm looking forward to it, but I cannot believe its staying like it is now. you know, there is a unit called a void ray, you know there is a unit called the mother ship core, you know there is a unit called the tempest. For how long has terran been using an inferior army (bio) and going up against mass chargelot/archon/storm/colosus/stalkers and still managed to win by microing their heart out. Protoss will find a way to win, Old strategys will make a return ( 3 gate void ray all in) , and mech based pushes especially if tried early game lack any sort of Anti air capablitites, which looks like yummy food for Tempests. If you want to get aggressive with tempest, have a recall ready. You say protoss will have hard time early game defending pushes, while you seem to ignore the mother ship core cannon that does 60 damage at 13 range. More like good bye early aggression you mean. I just hate when people come to conclusions so fast, Like how you are saying Oh ma god, broken warhound blah blah. I can predict a pvt matchup right now in hots. Protoss will more than likely always opt for an Stargate opener ( with orcale) and after orcale scouts , if mech get tempest or slam down a robo for mass immortal/colosus, if bio carry on as usual threw the tech tree with robo or templar archives. Its way to early to just wright off certain units claiming massive imbalance.
Well it's stupid to complain about numbers or balance when the beta is not out, but giving opinions about concepts/designs is totally ok imo.
The warhound, no matter how you tweak it's numbers is stupid. It's a 1a marauder that comes out of factory, it's dumb and uninteresting. I'm not sure why Blizzard is so focused on making tanks not viable :/ The initial warhound (cheaper/smaller replacement to the thor) that we saw at MLG was more interesting than the current design. They changed his role from "mech anti-air" to a dumb amove anti mech/protoss unit.
Actually it seems like blizzard has an approach of "Z and P are too easy to play, T is too hard" (ease of play, not balance, don't jump on me please :<) and are trying to dumb down terran to equalize the ground, when they should be fixing it the other way around (making P/Z more complex).
And once again, this is completely a concept/design problem - something that is stupid regardless of the stats they give to the units, which is why we can discuss it before having the beta available.
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EPT
