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On August 23 2012 11:36 AndAgain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 00:58 Herect wrote:On August 22 2012 23:57 Velr wrote:
People that want to play an RTS play RTS.
People that want to play a MOBA play Dota 2.
People that want to play with friends while putting in minimal effort play LoL (or some MMO).
The groups are not in direct concurrence with each other. But they're. There's a reason why dota (and the MOBA genre) grew inside fo the Mapmaking scene of WC3. It is because people liked to play with heroes but hated to macro behind it (it is important elemente of RTS, but it cannot be denied that it's a repetitive, tiring, sometimes brainless and very mechanical task). When SC:BW came out, only RTS was a real option if people wanted to play a "strategy PC game" (actually you can extend to almost anyone that wanted to play a online PC game, bacause there weren't any FPS or MMO at that time). Today, there's a lot of options and they all are more noob friendly than SC2. In the end, all possible new public that could be interested in play an online RTS game is playing an MOBA today. A commom and straight RTS is just too hard in comparison to LoL or wtv MOBA game out there. That's an interesting point. Perhaps the growth of MOBA games indicates that a lot of people don't really like the idea of macro as a skill.
Yeah + all the hate to LoL is undeserved.
In both games, it's based on combined skill rather than individual skill.
Dota has denying and a few extra mechanics? It hardly makes that game much harder than LoL.
I'd say the difference (in skill needed) between Dota(2) and LoL is much much smaller than the difference between BW and SC2.
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On August 23 2012 11:36 AndAgain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 00:58 Herect wrote:On August 22 2012 23:57 Velr wrote:
People that want to play an RTS play RTS.
People that want to play a MOBA play Dota 2.
People that want to play with friends while putting in minimal effort play LoL (or some MMO).
The groups are not in direct concurrence with each other. But they're. There's a reason why dota (and the MOBA genre) grew inside fo the Mapmaking scene of WC3. It is because people liked to play with heroes but hated to macro behind it (it is important elemente of RTS, but it cannot be denied that it's a repetitive, tiring, sometimes brainless and very mechanical task). When SC:BW came out, only RTS was a real option if people wanted to play a "strategy PC game" (actually you can extend to almost anyone that wanted to play a online PC game, bacause there weren't any FPS or MMO at that time). Today, there's a lot of options and they all are more noob friendly than SC2. In the end, all possible new public that could be interested in play an online RTS game is playing an MOBA today. A commom and straight RTS is just too hard in comparison to LoL or wtv MOBA game out there. That's an interesting point. Perhaps the growth of MOBA games indicates that a lot of people don't really like the idea of macro as a skill.
Or that like all MOBA games are free to play. Believe it or not free to play is huge and if it's a well made game will get a lot more people then a game that costs 60$.
I think even if sc2 was f2p that moba games would still be more popular due to not being as difficult to play as sc2 but I think sc2 would have a lot more players/viewers as well just because there would be a lot more people playing it that can't afford it now for w/e reason.
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On August 23 2012 16:51 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 16:42 urbaNo wrote:On August 23 2012 16:16 Treehead wrote:On August 23 2012 14:22 urbaNo wrote:
lol what is everybody even fighting about?
Haven't you heard? Getting community figures together to say that x, y and z are imba and that their race needs buffs (despite having very little experience with the units involved, and having been in situations before where they had strong beliefs and were wrong) is the new way you play this game. I personally think Blizzard needs to make their interface for community feedback more streamlined though. It would be best for everyone, I think, if following every loss Blizzard could draft a balance complaint which would post globally across reddit, battle.net and TL - something like an autopopulated template like "This game is horrible. I was playing this game against [Enemy_Race] and he just built [Enemy_Unit_List] and a-moved and won basically. It seemed pretty imba. [Player_Race] needs some buffs to deal with this. Otherwise, I guess they just want unskilled [Enemy_Race] to always win. Why does Blizzard hate [Player_Race]?" For me, this is the most important balance change Blizzard can make. Currently, complaining takes too much skill and the desgin team can just a-move their balance changes right over them. If we could make an a-move-style complaint process, things become much more balanced. Also, I read on page 13 something about easier games being linked to brain cancer. Why do you guys think Blizzard wants to give all of us brain cancer? LOL dude. this is the best post in the thread. you pretty much summed up the entire starcraft 2 community. ok i wont say entire i will say about 95 percent of the community. i think your template is awesome, it would pretty much cut the walls of text in about 90 percent of our threads to save space on the servers. lol and i thin your balance suggestions is awesome, you should email kim himself, he wont listen to you though because he doesnt know anything about balance, and he wont listen to you anyways right? but in all seriousness, it makes me sad how our entire community is full of nothing but shit talkers and trolls trying to drown each other. i dont get it, nobody gains anything from any of this. lol the fact that somebody brought up brain cancer, just so they could get ahead in an argument is quite hilarious. that being said i have a feeling that HOTS beta is gonna drop this weekend in conjunction with mlg, just a gut feeling. hopefully so all yall can finally play the game and have some justified arguments about how easy the game is and blizzard is trying to give us brain cancer. When Blizzard has made the changes the community wants to see in the past, there has been nothing but praise coming from those decisions. When Blizzard makes changes the community wants to see, we are given hope for the future of SC2. I All you're seeing here are the discontent complaining b/c Blizzard is not willing to take radical steps to change the game into a better esport platform. These complaints are not new. None of them are. They have existed for the most part since beta. Because they are DESIGN flaws, not stat flaws. And design flaws take balls to change. They take a willingness to reconstruct the foundation of the game knowing that in the long run, it will be much better than before. Sacrificing a bit here and there to ensure the longevity of the modern RTS platform.
yeah i know these arguments are old,
ive read them over and over for the past 2 years, still doesnt change anything.
you can not redesign a game after that has been under developement for over 5 years.
i think it is ultra un realisitic and selfish/foolish of anyone to ask blizzard to do that.
there is no sacficing "here and there" as you put it, what you are asking would be for blizzard to start the game all over and fix everything that you think is wrong with sc2.
if they were to redesign these "fundamental flaws" then once those were fixed people would find other flaws to compain about and it would never end anyway.
what are they gonna do? remove the colossus?
and then what, what are they gonna substitute it with?
how are they gonna balance the replacement for the colossus without it interferering with the rest of the game?
of course the game has its flaws, but none of them are worth me complaing about it.
from reading these forums, i do not understand why half of the people on here even bothered to make an account on a starcraft forum if they hate the game so much.
i will ask you directly, why are you even here if you think starcraft 2 is garbage and needs a major overhaul.
why waste your time?
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On August 21 2012 20:26 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:03 xrapture wrote:
Cloud does bring up good points, though worded quite immaturely. Why not make the game harder? Core units and solid mechanics should be the determining factor of games. Adding all these super low skill cap, press- a- button- and- everything dies- units really makes me sad. Seems silly for people to complain about 'low skill cap' when they aren't even close to the top of the game. It's how you use the units. If it were as easy as '1A win' then there would be more people at Mvp's level. Also, how are Widow Mines, Tempests, Oracles, Vipers, or Swarm Hosts '1A'? They aren't. The only units being added that are are Warhounds and Battle Hellions... and T already has plenty of high skill cap stuff.
I think the point is that it is more interesting to compete against others at doing "1a9-284-pahsdpinp832" than doing "1A"
It will leave you a larger approach and way to improve also it makes the game more interesting.
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I would agree that a game like dota is better suited to mainstream success. If you think about it, starcraft is a really weird game that requires you to spread your attention all over the map and constantly be doing repetitive mechanical tasks. And you still lose most games to something stupid that you just happened to miss. In dota on the other hand, almost every game plays out in a satisfying way as the flow is much more 'managed'. And you have a single hero to give your undivided attention, so it is very rewarding. Even from an e-sports perspective, dota requires skill in having proper strategy and team play, although of course it's easier to play as an individual than a game like starcraft.
Personally I don't like dota as much, I played a few hundred games on it a few years back and to me it seems really boring and repetitive, not as 'cerebral' as strategy games can be. Of course I never really delved into the deeper strategy of hero picks and item builds, because I was always playing for fun in pick-up teams, so maybe I would have enjoyed that aspect of it more, but I doubt it. Honestly, I prefer playing WoW battlegrounds or arenas as far as hero-focused games go and I'm not really intimidated by playing competitive strategy games because of my chess background, but I can see how dota is way more popular. (or LoL, obviously) Maybe if the design of SC2 was truly as captivating as Brood War then I would change my mind, but a lot of these moba games really do have better design than SC2.
David Kim and Dustin Browder might be passionate, but that does not mean they know what they are talking about. I honestly have nothing against Dustin Browder and I often find him very aware and intelligent in his interviews, but the fact remains that Blizzard's business model is hardly suited to creating a perfect e-sports game. They are too concerned with not alienating the casual playerbase and with not disappointing clueless mainstream game reviewers, and so they are not coming from a position of strength, where they design a game that is so fun you can't ignore it. Instead they kind of want the game to be really accessible and kind of want it to be really hard, but not too hard or too complex etc. It's all confused and undoubtedly lead to many silly design decisions that resulted in a game not as good as Brood War.
In a game like dota you need not worry about all such considerations, by the restriction of working within this genre you have a lot more freedom in making the game fun without impacting difficulty or accessibility.
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On August 23 2012 17:30 urbaNo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 16:51 Qwyn wrote:On August 23 2012 16:42 urbaNo wrote:On August 23 2012 16:16 Treehead wrote:On August 23 2012 14:22 urbaNo wrote:
lol what is everybody even fighting about?
Haven't you heard? Getting community figures together to say that x, y and z are imba and that their race needs buffs (despite having very little experience with the units involved, and having been in situations before where they had strong beliefs and were wrong) is the new way you play this game. I personally think Blizzard needs to make their interface for community feedback more streamlined though. It would be best for everyone, I think, if following every loss Blizzard could draft a balance complaint which would post globally across reddit, battle.net and TL - something like an autopopulated template like "This game is horrible. I was playing this game against [Enemy_Race] and he just built [Enemy_Unit_List] and a-moved and won basically. It seemed pretty imba. [Player_Race] needs some buffs to deal with this. Otherwise, I guess they just want unskilled [Enemy_Race] to always win. Why does Blizzard hate [Player_Race]?" For me, this is the most important balance change Blizzard can make. Currently, complaining takes too much skill and the desgin team can just a-move their balance changes right over them. If we could make an a-move-style complaint process, things become much more balanced. Also, I read on page 13 something about easier games being linked to brain cancer. Why do you guys think Blizzard wants to give all of us brain cancer? LOL dude. this is the best post in the thread. you pretty much summed up the entire starcraft 2 community. ok i wont say entire i will say about 95 percent of the community. i think your template is awesome, it would pretty much cut the walls of text in about 90 percent of our threads to save space on the servers. lol and i thin your balance suggestions is awesome, you should email kim himself, he wont listen to you though because he doesnt know anything about balance, and he wont listen to you anyways right? but in all seriousness, it makes me sad how our entire community is full of nothing but shit talkers and trolls trying to drown each other. i dont get it, nobody gains anything from any of this. lol the fact that somebody brought up brain cancer, just so they could get ahead in an argument is quite hilarious. that being said i have a feeling that HOTS beta is gonna drop this weekend in conjunction with mlg, just a gut feeling. hopefully so all yall can finally play the game and have some justified arguments about how easy the game is and blizzard is trying to give us brain cancer. When Blizzard has made the changes the community wants to see in the past, there has been nothing but praise coming from those decisions. When Blizzard makes changes the community wants to see, we are given hope for the future of SC2. I All you're seeing here are the discontent complaining b/c Blizzard is not willing to take radical steps to change the game into a better esport platform. These complaints are not new. None of them are. They have existed for the most part since beta. Because they are DESIGN flaws, not stat flaws. And design flaws take balls to change. They take a willingness to reconstruct the foundation of the game knowing that in the long run, it will be much better than before. Sacrificing a bit here and there to ensure the longevity of the modern RTS platform. yeah i know these arguments are old, ive read them over and over for the past 2 years, still doesnt change anything. you can not redesign a game after that has been under developement for over 5 years. i think it is ultra un realisitic and selfish/foolish of anyone to ask blizzard to do that. there is no sacficing "here and there" as you put it, what you are asking would be for blizzard to start the game all over and fix everything that you think is wrong with sc2. if they were to redesign these "fundamental flaws" then once those were fixed people would find other flaws to compain about and it would never end anyway. what are they gonna do? remove the colossus? and then what, what are they gonna substitute it with? how are they gonna balance the replacement for the colossus without it interferering with the rest of the game? of course the game has its flaws, but none of them are worth me complaing about it. from reading these forums, i do not understand why half of the people on here even bothered to make an account on a starcraft forum if they hate the game so much. i will ask you directly, why are you even here if you think starcraft 2 is garbage and needs a major overhaul. why waste your time?
Because this game is the modern RTS platform. Because Blizzard has pushed and pushed and pushed for this to be the big esport game in the market.
Because despite what you think, your viewpoint isn't new or original. You're just one mind on the opposite end of the spectrum.
Is it so selfish to want a company to redesign their self proclaimed esport title to be more like the title esports deserves?
It's not unrealistic. The changes that many want to see can be accomplished, TESTED - as a test realm patch, or as a BETA TEST, within a few days. Many desire Blizzard to fix the fundamental problems with SC2. Yes, that means sacrifices here or there. That means removing some of the units they designed. THAT MEANS SACRIFICE. A whole new meta to learn. A whole new game.
But a better one.
There are always those who will complain despite good changes. Because they do not actually care about the welfare of the game. They care about attention, and they get it from their complaints. I am not one of those.
Then there are those who are faithful to the game despite its many flaws. They are satisfied with it. I am still, for the most part, faithful.
Then there are the fanboys. No matter the complaint, they claim that the game is close to perfect - nope, no flaws! Nothing needs change. Nothing could be better, the game is fine the way it is. Blizzard made all the right choices. All their reasons for said choices are correct. Once, in the beginning, I was a fanboy.
Then there are those who are passionate about the scene and the community. When the game came out, they were satisfied. But as time went on and more and more fundamental problems with current game design were revealed, many as hypothesized, they began to become more and more dissatisfied. Jaded. They looked to Blizzard. They waited.
And they waited.
And they still continue to wait.
I play this game because there's no other widely played RTS game out there with similar qualities.
I'm waiting for change. I'm hoping, wishing, praying to see change.
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It all seems much like the situation with Mass Effect 3 ending - the difference between what developers want to create and what users want to play. Of course Blizzard should listen to some extent and of course it takes balls to change the design decisions. Even though some changes just have to be made, there's still a deeper problem - to what extent players should shape the game (no, I'm not convinced that we should leave everything to the developers, but still they have right to stick somewhat to their general idea). Blizzard will still sell tons of HotS copies and still they'll continue making games. We should hope then that bussiness model, presented by Riot or Valve will take over EA or other companies' models and then Blizzard (forced by their shareholders or just by themselves) will adopt it too.
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On August 23 2012 17:48 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 17:30 urbaNo wrote:On August 23 2012 16:51 Qwyn wrote:On August 23 2012 16:42 urbaNo wrote:On August 23 2012 16:16 Treehead wrote:On August 23 2012 14:22 urbaNo wrote:
lol what is everybody even fighting about?
Haven't you heard? Getting community figures together to say that x, y and z are imba and that their race needs buffs (despite having very little experience with the units involved, and having been in situations before where they had strong beliefs and were wrong) is the new way you play this game. I personally think Blizzard needs to make their interface for community feedback more streamlined though. It would be best for everyone, I think, if following every loss Blizzard could draft a balance complaint which would post globally across reddit, battle.net and TL - something like an autopopulated template like "This game is horrible. I was playing this game against [Enemy_Race] and he just built [Enemy_Unit_List] and a-moved and won basically. It seemed pretty imba. [Player_Race] needs some buffs to deal with this. Otherwise, I guess they just want unskilled [Enemy_Race] to always win. Why does Blizzard hate [Player_Race]?" For me, this is the most important balance change Blizzard can make. Currently, complaining takes too much skill and the desgin team can just a-move their balance changes right over them. If we could make an a-move-style complaint process, things become much more balanced. Also, I read on page 13 something about easier games being linked to brain cancer. Why do you guys think Blizzard wants to give all of us brain cancer? LOL dude. this is the best post in the thread. you pretty much summed up the entire starcraft 2 community. ok i wont say entire i will say about 95 percent of the community. i think your template is awesome, it would pretty much cut the walls of text in about 90 percent of our threads to save space on the servers. lol and i thin your balance suggestions is awesome, you should email kim himself, he wont listen to you though because he doesnt know anything about balance, and he wont listen to you anyways right? but in all seriousness, it makes me sad how our entire community is full of nothing but shit talkers and trolls trying to drown each other. i dont get it, nobody gains anything from any of this. lol the fact that somebody brought up brain cancer, just so they could get ahead in an argument is quite hilarious. that being said i have a feeling that HOTS beta is gonna drop this weekend in conjunction with mlg, just a gut feeling. hopefully so all yall can finally play the game and have some justified arguments about how easy the game is and blizzard is trying to give us brain cancer. When Blizzard has made the changes the community wants to see in the past, there has been nothing but praise coming from those decisions. When Blizzard makes changes the community wants to see, we are given hope for the future of SC2. I All you're seeing here are the discontent complaining b/c Blizzard is not willing to take radical steps to change the game into a better esport platform. These complaints are not new. None of them are. They have existed for the most part since beta. Because they are DESIGN flaws, not stat flaws. And design flaws take balls to change. They take a willingness to reconstruct the foundation of the game knowing that in the long run, it will be much better than before. Sacrificing a bit here and there to ensure the longevity of the modern RTS platform. yeah i know these arguments are old, ive read them over and over for the past 2 years, still doesnt change anything. you can not redesign a game after that has been under developement for over 5 years. i think it is ultra un realisitic and selfish/foolish of anyone to ask blizzard to do that. there is no sacficing "here and there" as you put it, what you are asking would be for blizzard to start the game all over and fix everything that you think is wrong with sc2. if they were to redesign these "fundamental flaws" then once those were fixed people would find other flaws to compain about and it would never end anyway. what are they gonna do? remove the colossus? and then what, what are they gonna substitute it with? how are they gonna balance the replacement for the colossus without it interferering with the rest of the game? of course the game has its flaws, but none of them are worth me complaing about it. from reading these forums, i do not understand why half of the people on here even bothered to make an account on a starcraft forum if they hate the game so much. i will ask you directly, why are you even here if you think starcraft 2 is garbage and needs a major overhaul. why waste your time? Because this game is the modern RTS platform. Because Blizzard has pushed and pushed and pushed for this to be the big esport game in the market. Because despite what you think, your viewpoint isn't new or original. You're just one mind on the opposite end of the spectrum. Is it so selfish to want a company to redesign their self proclaimed esport title to be more like the title esports deserves? It's not unrealistic. The changes that many want to see can be accomplished, TESTED - as a test realm patch, or as a BETA TEST, within a few days. Many desire Blizzard to fix the fundamental problems with SC2. Yes, that means sacrifices here or there. That means removing some of the units they designed. THAT MEANS SACRIFICE. A whole new meta to learn. A whole new game. But a better one. There are always those who will complain despite good changes. Because they do not actually care about the welfare of the game. They care about attention, and they get it from their complaints. I am not one of those. Then there are those who are faithful to the game despite its many flaws. They are satisfied with it. I am still, for the most part, faithful. Then there are the fanboys. No matter the complaint, they claim that the game is close to perfect - nope, no flaws! Nothing needs change. Nothing could be better, the game is fine the way it is. Blizzard made all the right choices. All their reasons for said choices are correct. Once, in the beginning, I was a fanboy. Then there are those who are passionate about the scene and the community. When the game came out, they were satisfied. But as time went on and more and more fundamental problems with current game design were revealed, many as hypothesized, they began to become more and more dissatisfied. Jaded. They looked to Blizzard. They waited. And they waited. And they still continue to wait. I play this game because there's no other widely played RTS game out there with similar qualities. I'm waiting for change. I'm hoping, wishing, praying to see change.
i dont know man, i think you are holding sc2 on to high of a pedestal, and wanting it to be something it might not ever be.
it sc2 might not be destined to be the greatest modern rts of all time,
or maybe it will become it,
we don't know man,
that being said i admire your passion,
i am quick to forget that there are some down ass ppl in this community, because it is mostly filled with idiots.
idk man,
i think you should figure out a way to contact dustin bowder directly and explain to him what you just explained to me,
why not?
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Whats so great about pro gamer opinnions?
Its not like the game is changing or anything.
We are just gona get new units.
So all they are gona do is talk about the new units and possibly QQ about them.
And no blizzard will never make the game harder.
They are aperently to big for that 
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On August 23 2012 17:44 Grumbels wrote:
I would agree that a game like dota is better suited to mainstream success. If you think about it, starcraft is a really weird game that requires you to spread your attention all over the map and constantly be doing repetitive mechanical tasks. And you still lose most games to something stupid that you just happened to miss. In dota on the other hand, almost every game plays out in a satisfying way as the flow is much more 'managed'. And you have a single hero to give your undivided attention, so it is very rewarding. Even from an e-sports perspective, dota requires skill in having proper strategy and team play, although of course it's easier to play as an individual than a game like starcraft.
Personally I don't like dota as much, I played a few hundred games on it a few years back and to me it seems really boring and repetitive, not as 'cerebral' as strategy games can be. Of course I never really delved into the deeper strategy of hero picks and item builds, because I was always playing for fun in pick-up teams, so maybe I would have enjoyed that aspect of it more, but I doubt it. Honestly, I prefer playing WoW battlegrounds or arenas as far as hero-focused games go and I'm not really intimidated by playing competitive strategy games because of my chess background, but I can see how dota is way more popular. (or LoL, obviously) Maybe if the design of SC2 was truly as captivating as Brood War then I would change my mind, but a lot of these moba games really do have better design than SC2.
David Kim and Dustin Browder might be passionate, but that does not mean they know what they are talking about. I honestly have nothing against Dustin Browder and I often find him very aware and intelligent in his interviews, but the fact remains that Blizzard's business model is hardly suited to creating a perfect e-sports game. They are too concerned with not alienating the casual playerbase and with not disappointing clueless mainstream game reviewers, and so they are not coming from a position of strength, where they design a game that is so fun you can't ignore it. Instead they kind of want the game to be really accessible and kind of want it to be really hard, but not too hard or too complex etc. It's all confused and undoubtedly lead to many silly design decisions that resulted in a game not as good as Brood War.
In a game like dota you need not worry about all such considerations, by the restriction of working within this genre you have a lot more freedom in making the game fun without impacting difficulty or accessibility.
I disagree.
DOTA is a MOBA so it drags out.
Starcraft has a higher skill cap then dota..
While its true that in starcraft some small things can fuck you up, thats actully good.
It makes the game less forgiving and makes it better to spectate.
In MOBAs its almost impossible to come back after being behind, making matches unexiting.
Starcraft 2 has the name "Starcraft" in it.
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On August 23 2012 04:21 las91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 05:22 boxman22 wrote:On August 22 2012 05:16 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 22 2012 03:42 boxman22 wrote:On August 22 2012 03:29 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 22 2012 03:27 Yoduh wrote:
I want to point out how most people making huge complaints and posting all this negativity are only focusing on one or two new units and declaring the whole expansion a dud before the beta is even out. I don't mind complaining, it makes for good feedback, but looking at the bigger picture theres a lot of things being done right with HotS. I haven't seen a single complaint against the viper, hydra speed, ultralist burrow charge or reaper upgrade. A lot of people are cool with the oracle, mothership core, and battle hellion. People are on the fence about tempest, widow mine, and swarm host but only for possibly not being powerful enough. Really the only constant complaints being made are against the warhound and general fears about continued deathball vs. deathball "a-move" gameplay.
Doesn't sound too bad for still being pre-beta! And once beta starts there will probably be a floodgate of changes, and I think a lot of people complaining that Blizzard never listens are gonna get shut up. If you can remember back to SC2:WoL beta Blizzard was making changes all the time. People forget that. Once a game is released it's different, and they become way more hesitant to make big changes, and rightfully so. But beta time is great. I don't know what kind of changes are yet to be made, but in a few months you can bet we won't be looking at the same game we see today. So to nay sayers I simply say continue criticizing and giving feedback, that's good, but the predictions about SC2 and HotS failing are just too premature for this stage of development. Warpgate is still a stupid mechanic and it's been in the game forever. It's also a contributory factor to [i]why[i/] Protoss games largely consist of allins or deathballing. Lol how does warpgate cause deathballs? Warpgate, if anything, would be antideathball. Sure it would increase all-ins, but you can't say deathball at all... Either do your research on the topic or think for yourself. Warp Gate is THE contributing factor to why Protoss needs to play a deathball style. It's the root cause of all things bad with the race. Let me see if I can make a concise diagram. Warp Gate -> Gateway units have to be weak due to Warp In's strength -> Gateway units suck -> majority of the Protoss army sucks as lone units -> Protoss units need to mesh very well or Protoss as a race will fail -> Deathball play is born. That's a gross oversimplification. In really low numbers they can beat similar cost terran or zerg armies, either through kiting or sentries. Then in the midgame they get weak till colossi. That's not a case of being weak in small groups. Plus if you've ever watched blink stalkers v. zerg I don't think you can make a general statement that gateway units are weak. In what universe do you see equally upgraded small Protoss armies beating small Terran armies?
Who wins 1 chargelot, 2 blinkstalkers or 3 marines 2 marauders with stim? If anything it's a very close battle but I'm almost certain that the toss wins. Or even worse for terran, 1 zealot 1 stalker against 1(.5) marine 1 marauder both completely unupgraded.
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1 zealot 1 stalker against 1(.5) marine 1 marauder both
...
You do realise that this Protoss army is way more expensive in.. absolutely every aspect?
Blizzard seems very conservative with it's changes from WoL to Hots. Just go an check Warcraft 3 classic to TfT... That was balls to the walls.
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I just went through every page on this thread and counted that 80% of the comments that complain about SC2 are listed as United States. What's going on america? you mad bros?
User was warned for this post
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On August 23 2012 16:51 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 16:42 urbaNo wrote:On August 23 2012 16:16 Treehead wrote:On August 23 2012 14:22 urbaNo wrote:
lol what is everybody even fighting about?
Haven't you heard? Getting community figures together to say that x, y and z are imba and that their race needs buffs (despite having very little experience with the units involved, and having been in situations before where they had strong beliefs and were wrong) is the new way you play this game. I personally think Blizzard needs to make their interface for community feedback more streamlined though. It would be best for everyone, I think, if following every loss Blizzard could draft a balance complaint which would post globally across reddit, battle.net and TL - something like an autopopulated template like "This game is horrible. I was playing this game against [Enemy_Race] and he just built [Enemy_Unit_List] and a-moved and won basically. It seemed pretty imba. [Player_Race] needs some buffs to deal with this. Otherwise, I guess they just want unskilled [Enemy_Race] to always win. Why does Blizzard hate [Player_Race]?" For me, this is the most important balance change Blizzard can make. Currently, complaining takes too much skill and the desgin team can just a-move their balance changes right over them. If we could make an a-move-style complaint process, things become much more balanced. Also, I read on page 13 something about easier games being linked to brain cancer. Why do you guys think Blizzard wants to give all of us brain cancer? LOL dude. this is the best post in the thread. you pretty much summed up the entire starcraft 2 community. ok i wont say entire i will say about 95 percent of the community. i think your template is awesome, it would pretty much cut the walls of text in about 90 percent of our threads to save space on the servers. lol and i thin your balance suggestions is awesome, you should email kim himself, he wont listen to you though because he doesnt know anything about balance, and he wont listen to you anyways right? but in all seriousness, it makes me sad how our entire community is full of nothing but shit talkers and trolls trying to drown each other. i dont get it, nobody gains anything from any of this. lol the fact that somebody brought up brain cancer, just so they could get ahead in an argument is quite hilarious. that being said i have a feeling that HOTS beta is gonna drop this weekend in conjunction with mlg, just a gut feeling. hopefully so all yall can finally play the game and have some justified arguments about how easy the game is and blizzard is trying to give us brain cancer. When Blizzard has made the changes the community wants to see in the past, there has been nothing but praise coming from those decisions. When Blizzard makes changes the community wants to see, we are given hope for the future of SC2. I All you're seeing here are the discontent complaining b/c Blizzard is not willing to take radical steps to change the game into a better esport platform. These complaints are not new. None of them are. They have existed for the most part since beta. Because they are DESIGN flaws, not stat flaws. And design flaws take balls to change. They take a willingness to reconstruct the foundation of the game knowing that in the long run, it will be much better than before. Sacrificing a bit here and there to ensure the longevity of the modern RTS platform.
The major flaw with this argument is that you assume that listening to the community and its suggestions would make the game into a "better esports platform". Almost all of the suggestions are made by people who are not game designers, programmers or people who have an experience with making any computer products. Most suggestions are vague, with broad, overarching themes like "less a-move units", "make the game harder" and "make [x-race] harder". I don't know how you would program around such vague suggestions and if Blizzard did, they would have a whole new section of the community saying "you did it wrong, here is how you do it." Although listening to the community is a valuable tool, but should be taken with a grain of salt like anything else. Because when it comes down to it, the community is great, but also filled with a lot of people who complaint for the sake of complaining.
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On August 23 2012 19:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 16:51 Qwyn wrote:On August 23 2012 16:42 urbaNo wrote:On August 23 2012 16:16 Treehead wrote:On August 23 2012 14:22 urbaNo wrote:
lol what is everybody even fighting about?
Haven't you heard? Getting community figures together to say that x, y and z are imba and that their race needs buffs (despite having very little experience with the units involved, and having been in situations before where they had strong beliefs and were wrong) is the new way you play this game. I personally think Blizzard needs to make their interface for community feedback more streamlined though. It would be best for everyone, I think, if following every loss Blizzard could draft a balance complaint which would post globally across reddit, battle.net and TL - something like an autopopulated template like "This game is horrible. I was playing this game against [Enemy_Race] and he just built [Enemy_Unit_List] and a-moved and won basically. It seemed pretty imba. [Player_Race] needs some buffs to deal with this. Otherwise, I guess they just want unskilled [Enemy_Race] to always win. Why does Blizzard hate [Player_Race]?" For me, this is the most important balance change Blizzard can make. Currently, complaining takes too much skill and the desgin team can just a-move their balance changes right over them. If we could make an a-move-style complaint process, things become much more balanced. Also, I read on page 13 something about easier games being linked to brain cancer. Why do you guys think Blizzard wants to give all of us brain cancer? LOL dude. this is the best post in the thread. you pretty much summed up the entire starcraft 2 community. ok i wont say entire i will say about 95 percent of the community. i think your template is awesome, it would pretty much cut the walls of text in about 90 percent of our threads to save space on the servers. lol and i thin your balance suggestions is awesome, you should email kim himself, he wont listen to you though because he doesnt know anything about balance, and he wont listen to you anyways right? but in all seriousness, it makes me sad how our entire community is full of nothing but shit talkers and trolls trying to drown each other. i dont get it, nobody gains anything from any of this. lol the fact that somebody brought up brain cancer, just so they could get ahead in an argument is quite hilarious. that being said i have a feeling that HOTS beta is gonna drop this weekend in conjunction with mlg, just a gut feeling. hopefully so all yall can finally play the game and have some justified arguments about how easy the game is and blizzard is trying to give us brain cancer. When Blizzard has made the changes the community wants to see in the past, there has been nothing but praise coming from those decisions. When Blizzard makes changes the community wants to see, we are given hope for the future of SC2. I All you're seeing here are the discontent complaining b/c Blizzard is not willing to take radical steps to change the game into a better esport platform. These complaints are not new. None of them are. They have existed for the most part since beta. Because they are DESIGN flaws, not stat flaws. And design flaws take balls to change. They take a willingness to reconstruct the foundation of the game knowing that in the long run, it will be much better than before. Sacrificing a bit here and there to ensure the longevity of the modern RTS platform. The major flaw with this argument is that you assume that listening to the community and its suggestions would make the game into a "better esports platform". Almost all of the suggestions are made by people who are not game designers, programmers or people who have an experience with making any computer products. Most suggestions are vague, with broad, overarching themes like "less a-move units", "make the game harder" and "make [x-race] harder". I don't know how you would program around such vague suggestions and if Blizzard did, they would have a whole new section of the community saying "you did it wrong, here is how you do it." Although listening to the community is a valuable tool, but should be taken with a grain of salt like anything else. Because when it comes down to it, the community is great, but also filled with a lot of people who complaint for the sake of complaining.
The issue here is that you assume that somehow just because they are making a computer product (a game) that somehow the role requires a mass of qualifications. It doesn't. It really doesn't. It requires a bunch of people to sit down in a room, dictate what they find COOL (wrong) and put it in the game. And then talk about what works and what doesn't. Which anyone can do. Literally anyone. As to numbers, yes that takes skill. Someone who is good with game design.
Essentially, you are saying the exact opposite of what I am saying. You are ASSUMING that the game designers are competent, simply because they hold the job of game designers, regardless of the qualification or what being a game designer means. Mathematically, yes it requires an education. But as I said above anyone can deduce the various interactions of units on a large scale and how situations might play out.
It has been done time and time again with SC2. The various problems of the game have been figured out long before they actually occurred. And the community is for the most part very consistant about what it wants changed (though this is in itself divisive, or at least appears so due to fanboys).
And what people want to put in the game is made even EASIER by the fact that it HAS ALREADY been done. BW. That's right, what many people want are BW units. They don't want some random, hodge podge idea that some "game designers" came up with in a room. They want tried and true units, proven not only by concept but how they have evolved to function over the last 10 years - essentially proof of their value if imported.
I am not being vague. Many others are not being vague. Many threads have been made stating the flaws with the game. If I appear vague about what I want changed in the game it is only because I do not want the hassle of restating what I want changed in specifics every time I post an argument.
I know exactly what I want changed. I can even give numerical values. Many others could as well. Obviously they would not be perfect. That is what where those with qualifications come in. But ANYONE, can sit down and "make a game," as you say.
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Now, as to the bolded part. Remove the complainers who do so for attention. Look for consistent themes among the majority. What do they want changed? What is bad design? I can observe many such things.
Yes, the community's desires should be taken with a grain of salt.
But the issue here, so to speak, is that Blizzard is not listening to the community at all. They have a valuable tool, the MOST valuable, filled with smart people who want to see the game prosper (when you remove the complainers and the rediculous), yet they do not utilize it at all. It rusts, and thus, so does the whole foundation.
Oh, they think they are. But they are not being direct, straightforward, or concise about solving problems with the game. Instead, they come up with convoluted solutions that "anyone" can do by sitting down and talking about what's COOL! >>.
That is the feeling I get. Others get. Not good yo.
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I love you Plansix.
Did you know that approval for Congress is usually between 10 and 20%? Why because people hate "what Congress is doing". How is this so though when every congressman has a 50-60%+ approval rating? Because everyone thinks that their particular idea is great but everyone's ideas are crap.
You can argue and rationalize all you want but the fact is, it doesn't matter what Blizzard did people would complain in exactly the same way.
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On August 23 2012 18:45 urbaNo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 17:48 Qwyn wrote:On August 23 2012 17:30 urbaNo wrote:On August 23 2012 16:51 Qwyn wrote:On August 23 2012 16:42 urbaNo wrote:On August 23 2012 16:16 Treehead wrote:On August 23 2012 14:22 urbaNo wrote:
lol what is everybody even fighting about?
Haven't you heard? Getting community figures together to say that x, y and z are imba and that their race needs buffs (despite having very little experience with the units involved, and having been in situations before where they had strong beliefs and were wrong) is the new way you play this game. I personally think Blizzard needs to make their interface for community feedback more streamlined though. It would be best for everyone, I think, if following every loss Blizzard could draft a balance complaint which would post globally across reddit, battle.net and TL - something like an autopopulated template like "This game is horrible. I was playing this game against [Enemy_Race] and he just built [Enemy_Unit_List] and a-moved and won basically. It seemed pretty imba. [Player_Race] needs some buffs to deal with this. Otherwise, I guess they just want unskilled [Enemy_Race] to always win. Why does Blizzard hate [Player_Race]?" For me, this is the most important balance change Blizzard can make. Currently, complaining takes too much skill and the desgin team can just a-move their balance changes right over them. If we could make an a-move-style complaint process, things become much more balanced. Also, I read on page 13 something about easier games being linked to brain cancer. Why do you guys think Blizzard wants to give all of us brain cancer? LOL dude. this is the best post in the thread. you pretty much summed up the entire starcraft 2 community. ok i wont say entire i will say about 95 percent of the community. i think your template is awesome, it would pretty much cut the walls of text in about 90 percent of our threads to save space on the servers. lol and i thin your balance suggestions is awesome, you should email kim himself, he wont listen to you though because he doesnt know anything about balance, and he wont listen to you anyways right? but in all seriousness, it makes me sad how our entire community is full of nothing but shit talkers and trolls trying to drown each other. i dont get it, nobody gains anything from any of this. lol the fact that somebody brought up brain cancer, just so they could get ahead in an argument is quite hilarious. that being said i have a feeling that HOTS beta is gonna drop this weekend in conjunction with mlg, just a gut feeling. hopefully so all yall can finally play the game and have some justified arguments about how easy the game is and blizzard is trying to give us brain cancer. When Blizzard has made the changes the community wants to see in the past, there has been nothing but praise coming from those decisions. When Blizzard makes changes the community wants to see, we are given hope for the future of SC2. I All you're seeing here are the discontent complaining b/c Blizzard is not willing to take radical steps to change the game into a better esport platform. These complaints are not new. None of them are. They have existed for the most part since beta. Because they are DESIGN flaws, not stat flaws. And design flaws take balls to change. They take a willingness to reconstruct the foundation of the game knowing that in the long run, it will be much better than before. Sacrificing a bit here and there to ensure the longevity of the modern RTS platform. yeah i know these arguments are old, ive read them over and over for the past 2 years, still doesnt change anything. you can not redesign a game after that has been under developement for over 5 years. i think it is ultra un realisitic and selfish/foolish of anyone to ask blizzard to do that. there is no sacficing "here and there" as you put it, what you are asking would be for blizzard to start the game all over and fix everything that you think is wrong with sc2. if they were to redesign these "fundamental flaws" then once those were fixed people would find other flaws to compain about and it would never end anyway. what are they gonna do? remove the colossus? and then what, what are they gonna substitute it with? how are they gonna balance the replacement for the colossus without it interferering with the rest of the game? of course the game has its flaws, but none of them are worth me complaing about it. from reading these forums, i do not understand why half of the people on here even bothered to make an account on a starcraft forum if they hate the game so much. i will ask you directly, why are you even here if you think starcraft 2 is garbage and needs a major overhaul. why waste your time? Because this game is the modern RTS platform. Because Blizzard has pushed and pushed and pushed for this to be the big esport game in the market. Because despite what you think, your viewpoint isn't new or original. You're just one mind on the opposite end of the spectrum. Is it so selfish to want a company to redesign their self proclaimed esport title to be more like the title esports deserves? It's not unrealistic. The changes that many want to see can be accomplished, TESTED - as a test realm patch, or as a BETA TEST, within a few days. Many desire Blizzard to fix the fundamental problems with SC2. Yes, that means sacrifices here or there. That means removing some of the units they designed. THAT MEANS SACRIFICE. A whole new meta to learn. A whole new game. But a better one. There are always those who will complain despite good changes. Because they do not actually care about the welfare of the game. They care about attention, and they get it from their complaints. I am not one of those. Then there are those who are faithful to the game despite its many flaws. They are satisfied with it. I am still, for the most part, faithful. Then there are the fanboys. No matter the complaint, they claim that the game is close to perfect - nope, no flaws! Nothing needs change. Nothing could be better, the game is fine the way it is. Blizzard made all the right choices. All their reasons for said choices are correct. Once, in the beginning, I was a fanboy. Then there are those who are passionate about the scene and the community. When the game came out, they were satisfied. But as time went on and more and more fundamental problems with current game design were revealed, many as hypothesized, they began to become more and more dissatisfied. Jaded. They looked to Blizzard. They waited. And they waited. And they still continue to wait. I play this game because there's no other widely played RTS game out there with similar qualities. I'm waiting for change. I'm hoping, wishing, praying to see change. i dont know man, i think you are holding sc2 on to high of a pedestal, and wanting it to be something it might not ever be. it sc2 might not be destined to be the greatest modern rts of all time, or maybe it will become it, we don't know man, that being said i admire your passion, i am quick to forget that there are some down ass ppl in this community, because it is mostly filled with idiots. idk man, i think you should figure out a way to contact dustin bowder directly and explain to him what you just explained to me, why not?
I'd love to, if it weren't so futile. I want to play a great game, and have competent people develop it.
As for the pedestal, you're damn right it's high. It's high because of the power and prestige of its predecessor. And that's not something that will go away.
SC2 might not become the best RTS of all time - but it CAN, with proper support, listening to the community, and active involvement on all accounts. It CAN.
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On August 23 2012 19:10 Velr wrote:
1 zealot 1 stalker against 1(.5) marine 1 marauder both
...
You do realise that this Protoss army is way more expensive in.. absolutely every aspect?
Sorry I meant 2.5 marines.
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Seriously, what's up with Blizzard? Do they want to fuck their game the quickest way possible? Because to me it seems the entire team is composed of 10 years old kids who loved big units with super powers. Otherwise, I can't understand why they'd leave the mothership in the game. That unit is entirely against what SC has always been. Nobody likes it, nobody likes what it does (i.e. making for a long boring game where one battle is decided by one or 2 vortexes) and it's a stupid hero unit. They should try to fix late game protoss in other ways imo if they find that they don't have enough chances in late game PvZ (which is the only utility at the moment). I also think the tempest is not a very well designed unit, but I'll give it a chance in the beta.
Also, that mothership core is a flawed concept as well. How bad must you be at designing units that you need to implement that one? To me it has the same flaws as the mothership, but more in the early-mid game.
I know the beta isn't out yet, but I'm not saying these units or OP or UP at the moment; I'm just saying that most the units are badly designed and, unfortunately, this is not something you can fix by tweaking numbers.
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On August 23 2012 20:01 PatouPower wrote:
Seriously, what's up with Blizzard? Do they want to fuck their game the quickest way possible? Because to me it seems the entire team is composed of 10 years old kids who loved big units with super powers. Otherwise, I can't understand why they'd leave the mothership in the game. That unit is entirely against what SC has always been. Nobody likes it, nobody likes what it does (i.e. making for a long boring game where one battle is decided by one or 2 vortexes) and it's a stupid hero unit. They should try to fix late game protoss in other ways imo if they find that they don't have enough chances in late game PvZ (which is the only utility at the moment). I also think the tempest is not a very well designed unit, but I'll give it a chance in the beta.
Also, that mothership core is a flawed concept as well. How bad must you be at designing units that you need to implement that one? To me it has the same flaws as the mothership, but more in the early-mid game.
I know the beta isn't out yet, but I'm not saying these units or OP or UP at the moment; I'm just saying that most the units are badly designed and, unfortunately, this is not something you can fix by tweaking numbers.
Well said. Well, well said. This is also the core of my argument. It is important to ignore (at the moment) claims of imbalance and instead focus solely on unit/mechanic design. What you've said about vortex can also be said about fungal, but to a lesser extent.
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EPT
