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On August 19 2012 23:16 CrUnKeD wrote:
While the metagame evolves random players have to evolve all 3 races, which creates much more combination of m/u types. Random players have a clear disadvantage because of that. If you can't ffe, do 3gate expo with pressure....deny their 3rd....get your immortals and sentrys up and you will have the upper hand.
Except the meta game is very rarely played in RvX matchups
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Can't do a standard opening. I used to 3gate expand but honestly it was just an annoying matchup and the majority of them cheesed or were absurdly greedy. So now I just cheese literally every random I play. Beat most of them too. I don't care if I don't know what race you're playing for my opener, proxy gateways and 4- gate can be made to work regardless. And whether I win or lose it just gets the game out of the way.
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On August 19 2012 23:01 Dfgj wrote:
Master league random here.
I'd rather have my race displayed or something so I can play a straight-up game rather than deal with people who just cheese/play suboptimally because they have to.
I've never understood this, if you actually want a real ladder experience then why don't you just roll dice or something to pick your race every match.
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I play random, simply because I like the variety.
As such, I don't understand why Blizzard doesn't just show my adversary my race.
I can see his race, so it's only fair he should see mine.
The argument that I have less refined play and thus should be given some sort of compensation is kind of ridiculous, if I can't beat my opponent straight up, then my MMR will simply decrease a little and I get an opponent according to my skill.
It ridiculous how much hostility you get for playing random.
I always announce my race and say GL HF, but usually people just tell me to shut up and die of cancer, or accuse me of lying, cheesing etc..
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I play Random. I don't tell my race unless I want to try out a specific build in the matchup I'm in and I'd like the other guy to be playing optimally.
Most of the OP's arguments against Random boil down to what I perceive to be nit-picky. Yes, you do need to FFE in PvZ to be at the top of your game. There is always one optimal thing to do in every situation, down to the placement of your first pylon or when you take your fourth base. Of course playing against a random takes away that advantage of playing the optimal build you learned from X pro or discovered works for you really well by trial and error; it also takes away the advantage of the Random player because he has to learn 9 different matchups. So you get stuck doing a slightly-sub-optimal "safe" build, and I've had to play 9 times as long as you to be at the same MMR as you (in theory). But you have 3 times as much practice in the matchup we find ourselves in.
So do your "safe" build, and if I'm just another "HUR DUR RANDOM MAKES CHEESE EASIER" player, your safe build nets you a free win. But if I'm a regular guy just playing to improve my skill, your safe build will put you on even footing by the midgame because I myself will have to open with a "safe" build, too. I don't know how you react to knowing you're playing a random, and as random I feel like I get cheesed a whole fucking lot. So we both open "safe," however, your build isn't the 100% most optimal for this matchup, and maybe I get to cut a few corners because I know I've forced you to play a little bit safer to cover all your bases.
But, as others have said, Random is a race unto its self, and you can use the knowledge that I'm not a pro at this matchup to your advantage; do some crazy shit that requires a specific counter/micro maneuver/response, maybe I'll fuck it up. Or open safe, and scout like you should be doing, and figure out how I'm messing up and how you can take advantage of it, like you should. Or just quit when the game starts and move on, I seriously think like a maximum of 5% of people play Random, and throwing one match in 20 isn't going to mess your MMR up that bad.
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On August 19 2012 23:21 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:01 Dfgj wrote:
Master league random here.
I'd rather have my race displayed or something so I can play a straight-up game rather than deal with people who just cheese/play suboptimally because they have to. I've never understood this, if you actually want a real ladder experience then why don't you just roll dice or something to pick your race every match.
Because that's a major inconvenience?
Why should I go through such a hassle if I can simply use the dice Blizzard provide?
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On August 19 2012 23:23 kafkaesque wrote:
I play random, simply because I like the variety.
As such, I don't understand why Blizzard doesn't just show my adversary my race.
I can see his race, so it's only fair he should see mine.
The argument that I have less refined play and thus should be given some sort of compensation is kind of ridiculous, if I can't beat my opponent straight up, then my MMR will simply decrease a little and I get an opponent according to my skill.
It ridiculous how much hostility you get for playing random.
I always announce my race and say GL HF, but usually people just tell me to shut up and die of cancer, or accuse me of lying, cheesing etc..
Well if you want people to know your race your only option is to not play random, I know that on a few occasions I personally have had random players tell me their race and turn out to be lying, so really there is no reason to believe when a random tells you their race. There are 2 type of random players, those who do it for variety and those who do it for the advantage.
Because that's a major inconvenience?
Why should I go through such a hassle if I can simply use the dice Blizzard provide?
Because the dice blizzard provides only gives you a VERY skewed experience of what the ladder is like.
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Its a pretty hard tradeoff if you ask me, sure they get an advantage early game because you have to scout earlier and do a safer build but they have to know 9 matchups and you only have to know 3.
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On August 19 2012 23:19 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:16 CrUnKeD wrote:
While the metagame evolves random players have to evolve all 3 races, which creates much more combination of m/u types. Random players have a clear disadvantage because of that. If you can't ffe, do 3gate expo with pressure....deny their 3rd....get your immortals and sentrys up and you will have the upper hand. Except the meta game is very rarely played in RvX matchups
And you know that from what experience?
In a vast majority of my games the game plays out according to the trending metagame.
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I play random, and i get cheesed a lot by people that say they are "countering my cheese" because they assume me to be cheesing because i am random.
If you ask i will tell you my race, and i almost never cheese.
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On August 19 2012 23:21 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:01 Dfgj wrote:
Master league random here.
I'd rather have my race displayed or something so I can play a straight-up game rather than deal with people who just cheese/play suboptimally because they have to. I've never understood this, if you actually want a real ladder experience then why don't you just roll dice or something to pick your race every match.
Its fun to not know what you're going to be doing until the game loads. Makes you think on your feet. You don't have time to sit there looking at the loading screen thinking "YES, PvZ on Antiga, my favorite! I'll FFE, get blink, yadda yadda. I'll expand at X:XX and then take my third if my push goes well, otherwise turtle for a minute and warp in some zealots, then take my third." In my head, my thoughts are racing. "Oh god, Cloud Kingdom? I better watch out for drop play. I need to protect this attack path, and if I'm terran take this base as my third, if I'm toss this one, or if I'm zerg I should just 6 pool for the hell of it. Oh man, I hope he doesn't cheese me. What cheeses are good on this map? Better check here here and here for proxies. Do I need to worry about that?" Etc.
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I play random ,albeit at a silver level, I always tell them my race because I like practice in all the matchups, but when I do that 1/10 times I actually get cheesed by the other person which is pretty irratating  .
I really wish TL had a random race icons in options though
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i usually tend to do more aggressive startegies versus random users. And scout scout scout!
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On August 19 2012 23:27 flyingteapot wrote:I play random ,albeit at a silver level, I always tell them my race because I like practice in all the matchups, but when I do that 1/10 times I actually get cheesed by the other person which is pretty irratating . I really wish TL had a random race icons in options though
Agreed. I'd love a dice icon. :/
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On August 19 2012 23:26 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:19 Tao367 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:16 CrUnKeD wrote:
While the metagame evolves random players have to evolve all 3 races, which creates much more combination of m/u types. Random players have a clear disadvantage because of that. If you can't ffe, do 3gate expo with pressure....deny their 3rd....get your immortals and sentrys up and you will have the upper hand. Except the meta game is very rarely played in RvX matchups And you know that from what experience? In a vast majority of my games the game plays out according to the trending metagame.
I know from my experience. Me saying that is exactly the same as you saying:
In a vast majority of my games the game plays out according to the trending metagame.
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On August 19 2012 23:29 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:26 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:19 Tao367 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:16 CrUnKeD wrote:
While the metagame evolves random players have to evolve all 3 races, which creates much more combination of m/u types. Random players have a clear disadvantage because of that. If you can't ffe, do 3gate expo with pressure....deny their 3rd....get your immortals and sentrys up and you will have the upper hand. Except the meta game is very rarely played in RvX matchups And you know that from what experience? In a vast majority of my games the game plays out according to the trending metagame. I know from my experience. Me saying that is exactly the same as you saying: Show nested quote +In a vast majority of my games the game plays out according to the trending metagame.
Except your experience means far less than mine because I'm a random player.
So 100% of my games are RvX, vs the what? 10% (if that) of your games that are PvR?
It's a numbers thing my friend. I've played far more random games than you have. I have a much bigger pool of experience to pull from.
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I think random adds an interesting dynamic. I think you need a build specifically for PvR. Just because you can't FFE doesn't mean you're behind. Naniwa in the GSL for example has shown some interesting gate first place without even attempting to wall-in. Granted he knew his opponent was zerg.
I play random sometimes, and I wouldn't really mind if my race was shown because I guess I'm that 1/10 that doesn't try to cheese every time (I only cheese like 20-30% of the time that I play as random).
I think the most important thing to do against a random is put them on the defensive.
Make them react to you, don't play scared.
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On August 19 2012 23:31 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:29 Tao367 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:26 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:19 Tao367 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:16 CrUnKeD wrote:
While the metagame evolves random players have to evolve all 3 races, which creates much more combination of m/u types. Random players have a clear disadvantage because of that. If you can't ffe, do 3gate expo with pressure....deny their 3rd....get your immortals and sentrys up and you will have the upper hand. Except the meta game is very rarely played in RvX matchups And you know that from what experience? In a vast majority of my games the game plays out according to the trending metagame. I know from my experience. Me saying that is exactly the same as you saying: In a vast majority of my games the game plays out according to the trending metagame. Except your experience means far less than mine because I'm a random player. So 100% of my games are RvX, vs the what? 10% (if that) of your games that are PvR? It's a numbers thing my friend. I've played far more random games than you have. I have a much bigger pool of experience to pull from.
Fair enough, but that doesn't stop me from having an experience and expressing my grievances with randoms. And really, for this particular argument, the number of games played doesn't matter. All I'm saying is the majority of my random games played are not played to the meta game, and you are saying yours are. It doesn't matter how many each of us play.
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On August 19 2012 23:33 thurst0n wrote:
I think random adds an interesting dynamic. I think you need a build specifically for PvR. Just because you can't FFE doesn't mean you're behind. Naniwa in the GSL for example has shown some interesting gate first place without even attempting to wall-in. Granted he knew his opponent was zerg.
I play random sometimes, and I wouldn't really mind if my race was shown because I guess I'm that 1/10 that doesn't try to cheese every time (I only cheese like 20-30% of the time that I play as random).
I think the most important thing to do against a random is put them on the defensive.
Make them react to you, don't play scared.
Off topic. I've tried that Naniwa vs DRG build in practice before and I have absolutely NO clue how he pulls that off economically. It always seems like I have 0 defense or 0 economy, how he manages to balance them both together is just a work of genius.
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On August 19 2012 23:34 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:33 thurst0n wrote:
I think random adds an interesting dynamic. I think you need a build specifically for PvR. Just because you can't FFE doesn't mean you're behind. Naniwa in the GSL for example has shown some interesting gate first place without even attempting to wall-in. Granted he knew his opponent was zerg.
I play random sometimes, and I wouldn't really mind if my race was shown because I guess I'm that 1/10 that doesn't try to cheese every time (I only cheese like 20-30% of the time that I play as random).
I think the most important thing to do against a random is put them on the defensive.
Make them react to you, don't play scared. Off topic. I've tried that Naniwa vs DRG build in practice before and I have absolutely NO clue how he pulls that off economically. It always seems like I have 0 defense or 0 economy, how he manages to balance them both together is just a work of genius.
Agreed on that. Pro builds will not work in Masters or below, and that doesn't change the fact you don't know their race, so are unable to guess what may happen.
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EPT
