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On August 19 2012 21:53 Maluk wrote:
Random is a race on its own to me. Random players who think they are more objective because they get to play all the matchups don't get that Terran vs Random is a whole other matchup than Terran vs Terran/Protoss/Zerg, for example. If you don't know the race of your opponent, any specific opener you have is screwed. So basically every random player starts with a slight build order advantage.
I don't think this kind of advantage is game breaking, though ; it seems to compensate nicely for the fact that the random player will often be slightly worse with the race he'll end up having during the game than your average opponent who race picks.
To me, random is fine as it is, and displayed as "random", because it's a way to have fun (I go random myself when I want to go for funny build based on the fact my opponent has no clue about what I could be up to).
I disagree. Its absolutely not hard to have a safe opening that "branches" out into race-specific strats after you scout. The whole "random players get a secret build-order" thing only applies if you get unlucky on a 4-player map.
The exceptions to this are PvZ (but GW expands aren't that bad, see Adelscott) and ZvR where you gamble slightly on pool- or hatch-first. Terrans in particular have it easy vs random, I 1-rax FE and very rarely have to do anything different to the normal matchups.
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I play random myself, for one simple reason: I simply can't decide which race I want to play and I like not knowing with which race I will end up when I click the matchmaking button.
If I'm asked what my race is, I will always tell my opponent. Just ask the next person that plays random. Too bad, only the ones that won't take advantage of their inherited advantage by cheesing you will answer truthfully. 
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Totally agree, I really see no reason for that HUGE advantage they get by having their race concealed. I mean firstly you ALWAYS have to send out an early scout, and sometimes you can just get bad luck and be beaten by proxy rax/6pool/2gate proxy. They should play random because they like to play all different and make it more exciting, but what really happens is them starting off with a huge advantage over the enemy player which is completely unnecessary, it just messes up the ladder.
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I have played Random, but would always tell my opponent my race. This obviously doesn't do anything as there is no reason to trust me. I would prefer it if the game just showed my race on the load screen. There is no reason random players should have an advantage from the start; the race they get is just as strong as if they chose it at the quick match menu.
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If I face a random, I usually 6pool. Fact is, If it's a map where I can't scout them before 14 supply, my build order will be wrong/bad. If I don't hatch first against a terran, I'm way behind. If I do hatch first against a protoss, it might work out, or I might get fucked by cannons. If its random and they rolled zerg, they're probably also cheesing since they know I'm zerg too.
Yeah, you can kinda make speedling expand work in all matchups, But I just take the opportunity to practice my cheese and micro. Terrans who wall off in time auto-win, but they probably would win anyways if I didn't 15hatch.
Basically random is a problem on big 4p maps where even an early scout (9-11 supply) might not find them in time.
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On August 19 2012 22:11 Skiblet wrote:
Totally agree, I really see no reason for that HUGE advantage they get by having their race concealed. I mean firstly you ALWAYS have to send out an early scout, and sometimes you can just get bad luck and be beaten by proxy rax/6pool/2gate proxy. They should play random because they like to play all different and make it more exciting, but what really happens is them starting off with a huge advantage over the enemy player which is completely unnecessary, it just messes up the ladder.
It's not a huge advantage and besides, if you've both got equal experience you've spent 3 times as many hours on your race as your opponent has. I'd say that's more significant than being in the dark for a short period and sending an early scout (which is not a bad thing anyway). I'm always confident vs random simply because I know I'm going to be better at whatever mu we end up in.
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On August 19 2012 22:07 Kasu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 21:53 Maluk wrote:
Random is a race on its own to me. Random players who think they are more objective because they get to play all the matchups don't get that Terran vs Random is a whole other matchup than Terran vs Terran/Protoss/Zerg, for example. If you don't know the race of your opponent, any specific opener you have is screwed. So basically every random player starts with a slight build order advantage.
I don't think this kind of advantage is game breaking, though ; it seems to compensate nicely for the fact that the random player will often be slightly worse with the race he'll end up having during the game than your average opponent who race picks.
To me, random is fine as it is, and displayed as "random", because it's a way to have fun (I go random myself when I want to go for funny build based on the fact my opponent has no clue about what I could be up to). I disagree. Its absolutely not hard to have a safe opening that "branches" out into race-specific strats after you scout. The whole "random players get a secret build-order" thing only applies if you get unlucky on a 4-player map. The exceptions to this are PvZ (but GW expands aren't that bad, see Adelscott) and ZvR where you gamble slightly on pool- or hatch-first. Terrans in particular have it easy vs random, I 1-rax FE and very rarely have to do anything different to the normal matchups.
The fact is that facing a random makes you predictable, and being unpredictable is a huge part of the early game, especially for terrans. When I play random against a terran, I know for sure he'll be doing a 1 rax FE or some crazy proxy 2 racks, whereas a terran entering a specific matchup, versus protoss for example, has an insane amount of possibilities at his disposal, possibilities which, as possibilities, count and influence the matchup. As MC and Byun said not long ago for example, PvT seems slightly protoss favored if the terran keeps going 1 rax FE, but the matchup find its balance in the fact that there are a ton of terran openers (in the terms of Byun : "I can use strategy"). Even on the ladder, such things count ; you're much better off with your opponent wondering what you're doing rather than knowing you're going for a 1 rax FE before even scouting.
But as I said, to me this advantage of random is not game breaking, just compensating for the slightly superior level of the non-random player. To sum it up really, ask any person you want, everyone will answer you that they play different vs random and vs a protoss/terran/zerg. The matchup versus random is actually a matchup on its won.
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Are you telling me you can't ever beat a Zerg with a 1 gate expand or a Terran with a 14 pool?
You give up very little by not knowing your opponent's race at the very beginning. He's giving up way more than you are by having to learn all of the different match ups as opposed to just a couple.
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I completely agree, the game is so strongly designed around the 6 core matchups, throwing a technically speaking 4th race into the mix just unnecessarily complicates things. You have to prepare a second set of overly safe build orders just for the off ~2% chance that you get a random player. And for what, random players being slightly compensated for choosing random? I can't see why the game should give incentive to spreading your skill thin across three races, particularly when the entire pro scene and game philosophy is focuses on the idea of honing in on a particular race's strengths and weaknesses against other races. Moreover, because random players are technically playing the 4th race, they aren't even playing each matchup the within the current, highly developed metagame, since our reaction to their being random throws this out the window, turning it into a bastardized 'random player metagame' that only random players know. You could even argue that part of their success is solely due to knowing the random metagame better than non-random players since they play it 100% of the time versus our ~2%.
Personally I think this is simply a case of Blizzard wanting to play it safe and stay true to Brood War, as I'm sure there would be many outcries and petitions from the ~1-2% that play random if it wasn't included in SC2. But I think moving forward with Heart of the Swarm, cutting the random player advantage is definitely something they should be considering, not only for the benefit of non-random players but to give random players the opportunity to play the real XvX meta-games.
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actually it is really hard to notice random players, as they normally choose their race beforehand and you will never notice if you play one. Unless you check their profile. Anyway if they are after the double wins for achievements (if you win you get one for the race and one for random race!), they normally announce their race, or tell you when you ask.
The ones not doing this most likely enjoy the advantage that comes with it. Well they only have the advantage if you let it happen. There are enough openers each race can do without scouting fast and falling behind. They are different from the standard, but in general you end up being better off against random players who abuse their random advantage.
Of course you can chose the easy way and leave against random players. (another reason why people play random, when i did random ago for another achievement i won every 5th game because someone left the game)
Anyway do ask the race at the start and do a worker scout anyway and do a random save build order. Random players hiding beind it, usually overextend themself one way or the other you can easily win with an aggressive early game.
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This game is for fun and random is so silly, that it is entertaining again. I just counter the silliness of playing against a race that I don't know with a stupid proxy. Problem solved.
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If you ask me what race I am I tell you unless you are mean.
The problem is that a lot of people are not like you ;P
I agree with OP, playing random should be an option, but it should not affect my play. i think playing random gives an unfair advantage.
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Holy fucking balance whine, Batman,
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On August 19 2012 22:27 XenoX101 wrote:
I completely agree, the game is so strongly designed around the 6 core matchups, throwing a technically speaking 4th race into the mix just unnecessarily complicates things. You have to prepare a second set of overly safe build orders just for the off ~2% chance that you get a random player. And for what, random players being slightly compensated for choosing random? I can't see why the game should give incentive to spreading your skill thin across three races, particularly when the entire pro scene and game philosophy is focuses on the idea of honing in on a particular race's strengths and weaknesses against other races. Moreover, because random players are technically playing the 4th race, they aren't even playing each matchup the within the current, highly developed metagame, since our reaction to their being random throws this out the window, turning it into a bastardized 'random player metagame' that only random players know. You could even argue that part of their success is solely due to knowing the random metagame better than non-random players since they play it 100% of the time versus our ~2%.
Personally I think this is simply a case of Blizzard wanting to play it safe and stay true to Brood War, as I'm sure there would be many outcries and petitions from the ~1-2% that play random if it wasn't included in SC2. But I think moving forward with Heart of the Swarm, cutting the random player advantage is definitely something they should be considering, not only for the benefit of non-random players but to give random players the opportunity to play the real XvX meta-games.
The Ladder isn't the pro-scene.
Why should you be rewarded for only learning 1/3rd of the game?
See how I can use this logic also? It's very wrong.
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On August 19 2012 22:34 garlicface wrote:
Holy fucking balance whine, Batman,
At what point did I complain about balance?
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On August 19 2012 22:35 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 22:27 XenoX101 wrote:
I completely agree, the game is so strongly designed around the 6 core matchups, throwing a technically speaking 4th race into the mix just unnecessarily complicates things. You have to prepare a second set of overly safe build orders just for the off ~2% chance that you get a random player. And for what, random players being slightly compensated for choosing random? I can't see why the game should give incentive to spreading your skill thin across three races, particularly when the entire pro scene and game philosophy is focuses on the idea of honing in on a particular race's strengths and weaknesses against other races. Moreover, because random players are technically playing the 4th race, they aren't even playing each matchup the within the current, highly developed metagame, since our reaction to their being random throws this out the window, turning it into a bastardized 'random player metagame' that only random players know. You could even argue that part of their success is solely due to knowing the random metagame better than non-random players since they play it 100% of the time versus our ~2%.
Personally I think this is simply a case of Blizzard wanting to play it safe and stay true to Brood War, as I'm sure there would be many outcries and petitions from the ~1-2% that play random if it wasn't included in SC2. But I think moving forward with Heart of the Swarm, cutting the random player advantage is definitely something they should be considering, not only for the benefit of non-random players but to give random players the opportunity to play the real XvX meta-games. The Ladder isn't the pro-scene. Why should you be rewarded for only learning 1/3rd of the game? See how I can use this logic also? It's very wrong.
The ladder is not the pro scene, you are correct, but Blizzard have made the statement many many times that they like the idea of ladder being really competetive and tournament like.
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On August 19 2012 22:35 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 22:34 garlicface wrote:
Holy fucking balance whine, Batman, At what point did I complain about balance?
PvZ under the guise of PvR(Z).
+And the "random player advantage" is a joke. You want to compare this to the proscene? Show me random player that is currently finding success in the proscene. I'll leave your thread now, but I see this as little more than a PvZ balance whine.
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On August 19 2012 22:40 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 22:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 22:27 XenoX101 wrote:
I completely agree, the game is so strongly designed around the 6 core matchups, throwing a technically speaking 4th race into the mix just unnecessarily complicates things. You have to prepare a second set of overly safe build orders just for the off ~2% chance that you get a random player. And for what, random players being slightly compensated for choosing random? I can't see why the game should give incentive to spreading your skill thin across three races, particularly when the entire pro scene and game philosophy is focuses on the idea of honing in on a particular race's strengths and weaknesses against other races. Moreover, because random players are technically playing the 4th race, they aren't even playing each matchup the within the current, highly developed metagame, since our reaction to their being random throws this out the window, turning it into a bastardized 'random player metagame' that only random players know. You could even argue that part of their success is solely due to knowing the random metagame better than non-random players since they play it 100% of the time versus our ~2%.
Personally I think this is simply a case of Blizzard wanting to play it safe and stay true to Brood War, as I'm sure there would be many outcries and petitions from the ~1-2% that play random if it wasn't included in SC2. But I think moving forward with Heart of the Swarm, cutting the random player advantage is definitely something they should be considering, not only for the benefit of non-random players but to give random players the opportunity to play the real XvX meta-games. The Ladder isn't the pro-scene. Why should you be rewarded for only learning 1/3rd of the game? See how I can use this logic also? It's very wrong. The ladder is not the pro scene, you are correct, but Blizzard have made the statement many many times that they like the idea of ladder being really competetive and tournament like.
The Ladder is already competitive, they never said they wanted the ladder to be more tournament like, they said they like using maps from tournaments they never wanted to change the ladder to be more tournament like, otherwise we'd be playing best of 3's on the ladder.
The point is here, as it is now. Randoms are giving up something in order to play random, on par or greater than what their opponents are giving up when they face them.
Take that away and it just becomes a one way street.
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On August 19 2012 22:40 garlicface wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 22:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 19 2012 22:34 garlicface wrote:
Holy fucking balance whine, Batman, At what point did I complain about balance? PvZ under the guise of PvR(Z).
Lol okay then.
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On August 19 2012 22:29 FeyFey wrote:
actually it is really hard to notice random players, as they normally choose their race beforehand and you will never notice if you play one. Unless you check their profile. Anyway if they are after the double wins for achievements (if you win you get one for the race and one for random race!), they normally announce their race, or tell you when you ask.
The ones not doing this most likely enjoy the advantage that comes with it. Well they only have the advantage if you let it happen. There are enough openers each race can do without scouting fast and falling behind. They are different from the standard, but in general you end up being better off against random players who abuse their random advantage.
Of course you can chose the easy way and leave against random players. (another reason why people play random, when i did random ago for another achievement i won every 5th game because someone left the game)
Anyway do ask the race at the start and do a worker scout anyway and do a random save build order. Random players hiding beind it, usually overextend themself one way or the other you can easily win with an aggressive early game.
In addition to this, I feel a common misconception about random is that they don't understand the race they're playing as well as a player who only plays one race. The thing with random is that their MMR is not necessarily indicative of their proficiency with a race (instead it's an average of the races), because they will likely have strong races and weak races, especially if the random players used to only play one race.
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EPT
