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On August 06 2012 03:33 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 01:20 Dodgin wrote:On August 05 2012 23:51 Milkis wrote:On August 05 2012 23:39 Chargelot wrote:On August 05 2012 23:34 Milkis wrote:On August 05 2012 23:32 Chargelot wrote:
@Milkis
My point was not that OSL/OGN relied upon the community. I don't disagree that the major KR events/organizations had huge sponsorships in BW. It was more about everything else. To call SC2 community driven in comparison to BW which to this day was still community driven outside of Korea (Sayle, anyone?) is pretty silly. ehh i just didnt like the fact that you just listed a bunch of corporations without knowing how much they actually sponsored. i mean listing some of the beverage companies that sponsor teams with free drinks is kind of like "uhhhhh" Pepsi sponsored a whole season of GSL, and I think Coke did the same? If they did, that was really early on. Hot 6ix sponsored this past GSL. But yeah, some of those company's haven't provided much. But what they have provided can't be boiled down to community driving. If anything, the SC2 community has/is done/doing far less for its game than the BW community did, and can take a lesson from the BW community and do more for it. If we had the community at our backs like BW did, there wouldn't even be questions about our validity because we'd be in such a stronger position. For now it feels like we only survive on the corporate dollars, not because we have community. the stuff about beverages was just a passing comment~ i'm just noting that the sponsors are fairly small, even the ones that sponsored gsl (gsl is dirt cheap to sponsor compared to osl/msl and it shows) the thing is bw died exactly because the community did not want to support it. it's because the big leagues were so dependent on sponsors that the sponsors had full control of the scene like in bw (hi kespa). there was never a community that supported bw in korea and if there's some now it's a bit "too little too late" because it's hard to get new people hooked. it's what's forcing the switch and the sponsors aren't really listening to the fans cause the fans think everything should be free i dunno, sc2 is still more community based than bw ever was. i mean, community is willing to pay to support leagues which i think is great, because it just means as long as the money is there the scene will survive, although maybe it'll downsize a bit. i dunno how the leagues are doing exactly in financial situations but i figure people are paying for it and then trying to get sponsors to help mount the costs. it needs to be a community sponsored endeavor if it wants to survive past the current phases where most of the biggest leagues (probably) aren't profitable yet Do you know why GSL is cheaper to sponsor? Looking up what OSL pays out every season vs GSL, GSL gives out a lot more prize money. ( to every player in code a/s ) Does OGN have larger production expenses or does the finals venue cost more to use? 1) From what I recall Blizzard sponsored a large chunk of the prize money the last two seasons. 2) The only thing Gom has over OGN in production is that they broadcast in a higher definition. Past that production quality of Gom is far inferior to OGN. 3) OGN is a cable tv channel. GOM broadcasts online. There are far less costs involved in the latter.
I think the biggest strength is Tastosis and even their Code A casters are awesome and Im going to assuming Mtrap is going to be the other caster for OGN so.......Also isnt Gom's HD like 480p lol
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On August 06 2012 00:22 TBone- wrote:
I'm really happy sc2 will now have an event that when you win it, it actually means something.
Code S? MLG? Dreamhack? Im confused.
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On August 06 2012 04:05 TommyP wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 00:22 TBone- wrote:
I'm really happy sc2 will now have an event that when you win it, it actually means something.
Code S? MLG? Dreamhack? Im confused.
tbh, nobody gives a fuck who won mlg or dreamhack in the past.
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speak for yourself please. If nobody cares who wins DH or MLG, why do like 75k people watch? lol
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On August 06 2012 04:08 TommyP wrote:
speak for yourself please. If nobody cares who wins DH or MLG, why do like 75k people watch? lol
75k people watch because those are big tournaments. That doesnt mean the titles count for much after the tournament ended. So both Naama and Hero won a DH Winter. Are they particularily famous because of that? Not really. Naama is famous because he pulls scvs and Hero because he is on Liquid and looks like Bisu. And Jinro won MLG 2010, yet he is known for is ro4 appearances in GSL.
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GSL is definetely the one tournament people remember the winners of, they are the most prestigious event in sc2. Because I follow the scene so closely I can tell you ( for the most part ) who won various IEM's, DH's and MLG's in 2010 and 2011 but not very many people can.
I mean, Naniwa won an MLG but does anyone ever really think about that anymore? I don't see it brought up.
I don't even see Leenock's MLG Providence win brought up often and that was the biggest MLG event ever.
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"And Jinro won MLG 2010, yet he is known for is ro4 appearances in GSL." Irrelevant in 2010 MLGs were all foreigners and Code S had Koreans in it which is why hes known for that. One of Hero's defining moments in his career was his DH winter win and that helped him solidify himself as a top toss and the emotion he showed after was one of the best sc2 moments. the other day at ROG they kept saying how Naama was the DH winter champion and how important that was for Finish pro gamers.
"Oh my god You guys won the Rose Bowl, but it doesnt matter because its not the National Championship." No thats fucking bullshit MLGs and DHs are important for SC2 and esports in general and they do matter and people do remember who won.
Edit: i can also name every single MLG winner in 2011 and 2012 of the top of my head so dont tell me people dont remember or dont talk about it. Also Naniwa's win was before Koreans came so... And as for Leenock whenever people talk about his achievements they will bring up winning MLG Providence over his GSL runner up.
Also if MLG doesnt matter im going to assuming you dont think ASUS ROG matters so given that those two dont matter then TaeJa is just some scrub right? Some may not remember who won which tournament, but it helps them gain a lot of fans and they can make them the best players in the world we can fall in love with and can help bring new rivalries and make old ones better. Without MLG the DRG/MKP rivalry isnt that great.
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On August 06 2012 04:26 Dodgin wrote:
GSL is definetely the one tournament people remember the winners of, they are the most prestigious event in sc2. Because I follow the scene so closely I can tell you ( for the most part ) who won various IEM's, DH's and MLG's in 2010 and 2011 but not very many people can.
I mean, Naniwa won an MLG but does anyone ever really think about that anymore? I don't see it brought up.
I don't even see Leenock's MLG Providence win brought up often and that was the biggest MLG event ever.
The Problem that I see with Code S is, that it happens to often. SC2 needs an event that when you win it makes you THE. FUCKING. MAN. And that's not really the case with Code S atm, because the next season is already on the way.
@TommyP: We appear to be arguing for completely different points, so let's just leave it at that.
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On August 06 2012 04:29 TommyP wrote:
"And Jinro won MLG 2010, yet he is known for is ro4 appearances in GSL." Irrelevant in 2010 MLGs were all foreigners and Code S had Koreans in it which is why hes known for that. One of Hero's defining moments in his career was his DH winter win and that helped him solidify himself as a top toss and the emotion he showed after was one of the best sc2 moments. the other day at ROG they kept saying how Naama was the DH winter champion and how important that was for Finish pro gamers.
"Oh my god You guys won the Rose Bowl, but it doesnt matter because its not the National Championship." No thats fucking bullshit MLGs and DHs are important for SC2 and esports in general and they do matter and people do remember who won.
Edit: i can also name every single MLG winner in 2011 and 2012 of the top of my head so dont tell me people dont remember or dont talk about it. Also Naniwa's win was before Koreans came so... And as for Leenock whenever people talk about his achievements they will bring up winning MLG Providence over his GSL runner up.
Also if MLG doesnt matter im going to assuming you dont think ASUS ROG matters so given that those two dont matter then TaeJa is just some scrub right?
In terms of prestige, non-korean tournaments don't really matter because they aren't as hard. In terms of e-sports value they matter the same. MLG and DH an most other tournaments matter as much as GSL in terms of e-sports value and since they are going to inevitably lack in the prestige department they make up for it in other ways. Sure winning multiple MLG's or DH's is amazing, but if someone wants to be known as the best they surely have to win a GSL (or soon, an OSL). It's like Lebron, everyone said he was probably the most gifted player in the NBA, but held it against him that he didn't have a ring. Now that he does, it's allot easier to make the case for him being the best (not of all time). Stephano will never be the best Zerg ever because he will never go to GSL (because he doesn't care about prestige, he wants money). Yet all his other tournament wins and his matches against GSL champions will bring him as close to the best (and clearly he is a special case because no one else is dominating koreans as much as he is and is not in GSL) as is possible without winning the GSL itself.
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On August 06 2012 04:46 qqK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 04:26 Dodgin wrote:
GSL is definetely the one tournament people remember the winners of, they are the most prestigious event in sc2. Because I follow the scene so closely I can tell you ( for the most part ) who won various IEM's, DH's and MLG's in 2010 and 2011 but not very many people can.
I mean, Naniwa won an MLG but does anyone ever really think about that anymore? I don't see it brought up.
I don't even see Leenock's MLG Providence win brought up often and that was the biggest MLG event ever. The Problem that I see with Code S is, that it happens to often. SC2 needs an event that when you win it makes you THE. FUCKING. MAN. And that's not really the case with Code S atm, because the next season is already on the way. @TommyP: We appear to be arguing for completely different points, so let's just leave it at that.
Alright. But in regards to Code S, at least the seasons are pretty long, i mean theyve only had three all year and you still get to watch starcraft like every night with Code A and Code S. In my opinion im pretty pleased with that, but OSL is good because of the reasons you mentioned. Its going to be awesome to have both GSL and OSL together.
In terms of prestige, non-korean tournaments don't really matter because they aren't as hard. In terms of e-sports value they matter the same. MLG and DH an most other tournaments matter as much as GSL in terms of e-sports value and since they are going to inevitably lack in the prestige department they make up for it in other ways. Sure winning multiple MLG's or DH's is amazing, but if someone wants to be known as the best they surely have to win a GSL (or soon, an OSL). It's like Lebron, everyone said he was probably the most gifted player in the NBA, but held it against him that he didn't have a ring. Now that he does, it's allot easier to make the case for him being the best (not of all time). Stephano will never be the best Zerg ever because he will never go to GSL (because he doesn't care about prestige, he wants money). Yet all his other tournament wins and his matches against GSL champions will bring him as close to the best (and clearly he is a special case because no one else is dominating koreans as much as he is and is not in GSL) as is possible without winning the GSL itself.
You do make a lot of good points but I think non-korean tournaments(especially MLG)are just as hard if not harder, it tests your stamina and you dont get to prepare for you opponent for the most part and basically all of Code S and Code A goes lol. They both have different obstacles you have to over come and some players are better in certain formats.
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On August 06 2012 04:46 qqK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 04:26 Dodgin wrote:
GSL is definetely the one tournament people remember the winners of, they are the most prestigious event in sc2. Because I follow the scene so closely I can tell you ( for the most part ) who won various IEM's, DH's and MLG's in 2010 and 2011 but not very many people can.
I mean, Naniwa won an MLG but does anyone ever really think about that anymore? I don't see it brought up.
I don't even see Leenock's MLG Providence win brought up often and that was the biggest MLG event ever. The Problem that I see with Code S is, that it happens to often. SC2 needs an event that when you win it makes you THE. FUCKING. MAN. And that's not really the case with Code S atm, because the next season is already on the way. @TommyP: We appear to be arguing for completely different points, so let's just leave it at that.
I don't see how OSL is going to give you that either, the next OSL is about to start and the previous one just finished.
They have been playing the Dual Tournament groups since about a month ago, before the BW osl was even done with the semifinals.
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I think thats just because its a special circumstance with switching over to SC2 and ending BW. Arent there normally only like 2 OSLs a year (never played BW sorry and havent watched all that much)?
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On August 06 2012 04:54 TommyP wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 04:46 qqK wrote:On August 06 2012 04:26 Dodgin wrote:
GSL is definetely the one tournament people remember the winners of, they are the most prestigious event in sc2. Because I follow the scene so closely I can tell you ( for the most part ) who won various IEM's, DH's and MLG's in 2010 and 2011 but not very many people can.
I mean, Naniwa won an MLG but does anyone ever really think about that anymore? I don't see it brought up.
I don't even see Leenock's MLG Providence win brought up often and that was the biggest MLG event ever. The Problem that I see with Code S is, that it happens to often. SC2 needs an event that when you win it makes you THE. FUCKING. MAN. And that's not really the case with Code S atm, because the next season is already on the way. @TommyP: We appear to be arguing for completely different points, so let's just leave it at that. Alright. But in regards to Code S, at least the seasons are pretty long, i mean theyve only had three all year and you still get to watch starcraft like every night with Code A and Code S. In my opinion im pretty pleased with that, but OSL is good because of the reasons you mentioned. Its going to be awesome to have both GSL and OSL together. Show nested quote +In terms of prestige, non-korean tournaments don't really matter because they aren't as hard. In terms of e-sports value they matter the same. MLG and DH an most other tournaments matter as much as GSL in terms of e-sports value and since they are going to inevitably lack in the prestige department they make up for it in other ways. Sure winning multiple MLG's or DH's is amazing, but if someone wants to be known as the best they surely have to win a GSL (or soon, an OSL). It's like Lebron, everyone said he was probably the most gifted player in the NBA, but held it against him that he didn't have a ring. Now that he does, it's allot easier to make the case for him being the best (not of all time). Stephano will never be the best Zerg ever because he will never go to GSL (because he doesn't care about prestige, he wants money). Yet all his other tournament wins and his matches against GSL champions will bring him as close to the best (and clearly he is a special case because no one else is dominating koreans as much as he is and is not in GSL) as is possible without winning the GSL itself. You do make a lot of good points but I think non-korean tournaments(especially MLG)are just as hard if not harder, it tests your stamina and you dont get to prepare for you opponent for the most part and basically all of Code S and Code A goes lol. They both have different obstacles you have to over come and some players are better in certain formats.
MLG lineups have been extremely disappointing lately, you can't make the statement that they are equal to GSL at all. Hell Marineking and DRG the winners of 4 of the 6 MLG events so far this year aren't even going to the Summer Championship.
MMA is not going, Mvp is not going, Marineking is not going, MC is not going, DRG is not going. It's missing way too much star power.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_MLG_Pro_Circuit/Summer/Championship
Take a look at the pools, sure we have a few big names like Stephano, Hero, Taeja. But overall It's not a out of this world lineup.
It is going to be amazing to see Losira back at an MLG event though.
On August 06 2012 05:20 TommyP wrote:
I think thats just because its a special circumstance with switching over to SC2 and ending BW. Arent there normally only like 2 OSLs a year (never played BW sorry and havent watched all that much)?
When OSL had no problems finding sponsors it was about 3 per year, they have been playing less over time only because they couldn't find enough sponsors to make it happen. I'm sure they want to run the Starleague as often as possible like the old days now with sc2.
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On August 06 2012 05:18 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 04:46 qqK wrote:On August 06 2012 04:26 Dodgin wrote:
GSL is definetely the one tournament people remember the winners of, they are the most prestigious event in sc2. Because I follow the scene so closely I can tell you ( for the most part ) who won various IEM's, DH's and MLG's in 2010 and 2011 but not very many people can.
I mean, Naniwa won an MLG but does anyone ever really think about that anymore? I don't see it brought up.
I don't even see Leenock's MLG Providence win brought up often and that was the biggest MLG event ever. The Problem that I see with Code S is, that it happens to often. SC2 needs an event that when you win it makes you THE. FUCKING. MAN. And that's not really the case with Code S atm, because the next season is already on the way. @TommyP: We appear to be arguing for completely different points, so let's just leave it at that. I don't see how OSL is going to give you that either, the next OSL is about to start and the previous one just finished. They have been playing the Dual Tournament groups since about a month ago, before the BW osl was even done with the semifinals.
That has only happened for this season. A normal season of OSL lasts for around 3 months with a couple weeks off before the ro32 starts up again.
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On August 06 2012 05:21 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 05:18 Dodgin wrote:On August 06 2012 04:46 qqK wrote:On August 06 2012 04:26 Dodgin wrote:
GSL is definetely the one tournament people remember the winners of, they are the most prestigious event in sc2. Because I follow the scene so closely I can tell you ( for the most part ) who won various IEM's, DH's and MLG's in 2010 and 2011 but not very many people can.
I mean, Naniwa won an MLG but does anyone ever really think about that anymore? I don't see it brought up.
I don't even see Leenock's MLG Providence win brought up often and that was the biggest MLG event ever. The Problem that I see with Code S is, that it happens to often. SC2 needs an event that when you win it makes you THE. FUCKING. MAN. And that's not really the case with Code S atm, because the next season is already on the way. @TommyP: We appear to be arguing for completely different points, so let's just leave it at that. I don't see how OSL is going to give you that either, the next OSL is about to start and the previous one just finished. They have been playing the Dual Tournament groups since about a month ago, before the BW osl was even done with the semifinals. That has only happened for this season. A normal season of OSL lasts for around 3 months with a couple weeks off before the ro32 starts up again.
That is basically the same as GSL except OSL lasts a few weeks longer overall, GSL seasons have been about 9-10 weeks per season then a 2 week break for this year.
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MLG lineups have been extremely disappointing lately, you can't make the statement that they are equal to GSL at all. Hell Marineking and DRG the winners of 4 of the 6 MLG events so far this year aren't even going to the Summer Championship.
MMA is not going, Mvp is not going, Marineking is not going, MC is not going, DRG is not going. It's missing way too much star power.
Well we dont know if MKP DRG MC MMA MVP are going to get those seeds for MLG summer. Also the Arena didnt have those guys because there was GSL/GSTL/OSL so it was just bad timing. Normally all those guys (except MMA and MVP) would be at the tournament. Also at MLG you see a lot of different players you may have never seen or arent used to and there are a lot of code A players there that can take a game off of anyone as we know.
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On August 06 2012 05:28 TommyP wrote:Show nested quote +MLG lineups have been extremely disappointing lately, you can't make the statement that they are equal to GSL at all. Hell Marineking and DRG the winners of 4 of the 6 MLG events so far this year aren't even going to the Summer Championship.
MMA is not going, Mvp is not going, Marineking is not going, MC is not going, DRG is not going. It's missing way too much star power. Well we dont know if MKP DRG MC MMA MVP are going to get those seeds for MLG summer. Also the Arena didnt have those guys because there was GSL/GSTL/OSL so it was just bad timing. Normally all those guys (except MMA and MVP) would be at the tournament.
It was indeed at bad timing, but the point is the players choose to play GSL/OSL/GSTL instead of going to MLG. what does that say about how prestigious it is and how important it is to those players?
It's pretty obvious what they care more about.
Even with seeds into pool play for the summer championship on the line they skipped the arena.
To me the foreign events to the top Korean players are just like a " is there a gap in my schedule where I can go and win some money? cool I'll go! " but if they have an important GSL/OSL/WCS match soon even if the matches don't conflict directly with the other tournament they will skip it and focus on practicing for what they consider to be more important.
*MC is the exception to this
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Well it was just an Arena, not the championship and also those tournaments are in Korea and dont require long ass flights and jet lag and OSL is on TV in korea and GSTL isnt as prestigious as MLG, players often leave Korea and go to foreign tournaments when they have GSTL matches, it was just that it was the semi finals and finals.
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The arena is actually equally or more important than the championship because you need to go to the arena if you want to be in pool play ( pretty much a must if you want to win the event, have never seen anyone not from pool play win MLG since Naniwa did it vs a bunch of foreigners 1.5 years ago )
Anyway I think we're basically agreeing with each other so I'll leave it at that.
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On August 06 2012 05:23 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 05:21 setzer wrote:On August 06 2012 05:18 Dodgin wrote:On August 06 2012 04:46 qqK wrote:On August 06 2012 04:26 Dodgin wrote:
GSL is definetely the one tournament people remember the winners of, they are the most prestigious event in sc2. Because I follow the scene so closely I can tell you ( for the most part ) who won various IEM's, DH's and MLG's in 2010 and 2011 but not very many people can.
I mean, Naniwa won an MLG but does anyone ever really think about that anymore? I don't see it brought up.
I don't even see Leenock's MLG Providence win brought up often and that was the biggest MLG event ever. The Problem that I see with Code S is, that it happens to often. SC2 needs an event that when you win it makes you THE. FUCKING. MAN. And that's not really the case with Code S atm, because the next season is already on the way. @TommyP: We appear to be arguing for completely different points, so let's just leave it at that. I don't see how OSL is going to give you that either, the next OSL is about to start and the previous one just finished. They have been playing the Dual Tournament groups since about a month ago, before the BW osl was even done with the semifinals. That has only happened for this season. A normal season of OSL lasts for around 3 months with a couple weeks off before the ro32 starts up again. That is basically the same as GSL except OSL lasts a few weeks longer overall, GSL seasons have been about 9-10 weeks per season then a 2 week break for this year.
This season of Code S took ~70 days to finish while a normal OSL season takes about ~100-110. Certainly not "basically the same." In fact, there has only been three seasons of OSL since Flash's last win in the fall of 2010.
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EPT
