EPTHow to present females in the SCII-community? - Page 13
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Shinobi1982
1605 Posts
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On July 18 2012 17:51 Shinobi1982 wrote: Here's what I think. People get dealt shitty cards in live. Just because someone like Lauren/Lindsey got aces it's no reason to hate on someone like them. A "professional hot chick" will always get more people watching the event then almost any other option. Just deal with it! Wouldn't the people being envious of everyone having a better life than them be more pissed at virtually every progamer though? Especially those in the EG house.. That place looks sweet. | ||
ihasaKAROT
Netherlands4730 Posts
However I dont think women should be pushed forward in gamingevents just for the sake of being a woman. If you look at Christina Vee's appearance during a LoL-event, it was horrible and awkward... Sure she did voiceaction in the game, but shes just not the person to have on stage presenting. There are other 'male-sports' that have this worked out better. Gaming can take a lesson from the pokerworld for example. Its about 98% male players, some female. However most of the newsreporters/interviewers are female and they have studied players and the game. It makes for great and fun interviews, while over time their knowledge of the game improved and alot of them get really far during tournaments these days. Its fun, not awkward at all. added to this: people that say its not fair that women in gaming get more attention are ignoring the fact that minorities always get more attention if the difference is that big, without doing anything for it. You try going to china as a 2,05m tall guy without drawing attention to yourself. | ||
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
On July 18 2012 07:58 Vildhjerta wrote: I have been playing Starcraft for quite some time now and as every other player have I gotten to know the scene. I have seen a positive, supporting community, that is very male-dominated. It is natural that the community is dominated by the target audience of the game companies. From this you could come to the conclusion that hiring a good looking woman to be a host at an event is not a bad idea, since the majority of the audience might appreciate it. I am not going to go on about why objectifying people is bad etc, even though there is a lot to say about that. Instead I am going to talk about the Starcraft II scene and how it is affected by this, seemingly harmless, choice of an attractive hostess. Hummm. Yeah well say what you want, but I ve also seen a community who goes on a fucking witchhunt every time they can, who bashes on casters, players, organizers when ever they can. And now starts talking about gender issues that are present in every major sport... yeah, positive and supporting  On July 18 2012 07:58 Vildhjerta wrote: First of all, what you look for in any kind of host is of course things like showmanship and charisma, but since this is a specific event, also the knowledge and love of Starcraft II is essential for a host not to make a fool out of oneself. There are several female profiles in the StarCraft community who possess the acquired knowledge and are passionate about the game, but Lauren Elise is, according to me, not one of them. Im not really going to say anything about this point, because I havent watched the whole show. If she has no knowledge in sc2 and then starts to try to go in depth with one of the players, I understand your point (which is true whether male or female). But if shes just there to interview, then hey, whats the problem? On July 18 2012 07:58 Vildhjerta wrote: Second of all you have to consider what message the choice of host sends. Does it say “we value people the same, regardless of what gender he/she is “? In a thread on TeamLiquid, the “NASL 3 Feedback thread”, Lauren is mentioned as “eye candy” by several different people. This attitude towards women is world-spread and nothing significant for e-sports, but unfortunate nonetheless. Having a playboy model as hostess gives the image that a woman in e-sports is a decoration for the male-dominated audience to enjoy. She is not a part of the event, even less so because of the fact that she was (probably) headhunted and has nothing to do with the community whatsoever. Oh come on, grow up a bit. This is present in every sport. In every fuckin TV show. In every event! You d be ranting if it was an ugly girl because it would "send a message to people that girls in esports are ugly nerds". This is just mainstream organisation, if you ever work in trade shows or event management/organisation, you d understand how the game works. Your really reflecting too much on this issue. Nobody is going to see e sports as a bunch of pervs because of this. So good looking girls get the jobs in show hosting. Its just the way shit works in events. On July 18 2012 07:58 Vildhjerta wrote: Lastly, Lauren Elise should not be blamed for this, even though she probably will be by some people. Comments on TL and other places sometimes express how “unfair” it is that girls get more attention than guys in the community. In Lauren’s case I agree; the attention is not well-deserved because she did not accomplish anything. Employing women this way will make it a lot harder for other people, who happen to be of the same gender as Lauren, to be taken for something serious. A girl like Lauren is not a good representative for the female gaming community, especially since she’s barely part of it. Hiring her gives the impression that women are qualified hostesses as long as they’re good looking. It is needless to say that the same does not go for the male hosts. The NASL should understand that, and the people working with big events should take the responsibility that comes with popularity. It is only until the majority of the people in e-sports want equality as we can have it that way. Competent hosts of big events, the male ones as well as the female ones, is just a start, but something that I think is important to build an equal community. What do you people think? I think you are forgetting what kind of Host she was. She was Interview/filler. Not fuckin caster. Nobody is going to take girls less seriously because they hired a good looking girl for that role. Its always is like that. Of course, if she had to cast and did know shit about the game then yeah, youd have a point. But this isnt the case. A hostess like a host doesnt need such great knowledge of the game. They need to know how to run a show. The problem here is that this what you think. You are the one giving so much attention to looks to start with. The problem with this community is that its not only male-dominated, but geek-dominated. A good looking girl at a show and people start "reflecting about it". Give me a break. On July 18 2012 07:58 Vildhjerta wrote: This is not criticism of her in any way, but only my own reflections on how much of an issue gender is. I hope I put this in the right forum. If not so, please redirect me.. Yeah well you spent your whole post bitching about her at NASL, sooooo..... | ||
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Dosey
United States4505 Posts
On July 18 2012 17:41 Euronyme wrote: No, not unless they're being photographed / taped and published / put up on the internet. What kind of weird question is that anyway? Being naked =/= porn. Being naked while having a film crew around you filming you = porn. Unless it's for some kind of art or medical thing, but that's a different story and not really relevant. Your inability to interpret my meaning further proves your cluelessness and tells me I should just end this discussion now. I'll leave this here for you though. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://lookatmyhappyrainbow.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/soap-box.jpg) Enjoy. | ||
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Thurken
961 Posts
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On July 18 2012 18:10 Dosey wrote: Your inability to interpret my meaning further proves your cluelessness and tells me I should just end this discussion now. I'll leave this here for you though. + Show Spoiler + Enjoy. It's hard to interpret your meaning, when all I have is your post. | ||
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Opera
France469 Posts
Lauren Elise wasn't as ridiculous as the Razer babes in I-don't-recall-which-IEM tournament who were just standing on the stage, grabbing the player's arm while Carmac was hyping the match for the crowd. On the other hand, Soe (iirc) did a good job at post match interviewing and her duo with Day9 worked great. | ||
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MadProbe
United States269 Posts
ROFL! idra <3 On topic : WTF someone is actually complaining about having a playboy model on stream? WHY in the fuck would you.... Then it hit me. OP is a woman. Vildhjerta is a swedish girl name. Google it. She made an account just to post this. ...It all makes sense now. | ||
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ihasaKAROT
Netherlands4730 Posts
On July 18 2012 18:19 Opera wrote: Lots of people here state that sex sells. While that's true for a lot of industries, I'd love to think that it's not the case in eSports, because we, as gamers, value knowledge and skill more than physical attractiveness. I dont know about you but after HSC5 I bought 14 of those chairs | ||
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ArtemisKnives
United States210 Posts
Yea... she's been in playboy... that's awesome. Nothing screams mass insecurity like worrying about gorgeous girls attracting more money to the sport... | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On July 18 2012 17:44 Exia0276 wrote: Sex sells - particularly to a male-dominated community. Denying it is futile, naive and turning a blind eye to the reality of business. What do you think the purpose of race queens are? I'll just repeat a question I asked earlier: Is the Starcraft audience the same as the football and MMA audience? Will people want or appreciate eye candy as much or enough for it to work well? I don't think that can just be assumed. While it is likely, we should realize that we're dealing in a global thing —Chinese, and Swedes may have different opinions or be raised in different ways than "Americans" (USA), Russians, or Brazilians. The demographics are also different too; while it's still male, it's younger male, and perhaps less women-obsessed males (just throwing things out there, not saying it's true) | ||
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Jakkerr
Netherlands2549 Posts
Only thing I saw her do was ask questions to the audience and give away free stuff. More like a mascotte. | ||
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ArtemisKnives
United States210 Posts
On July 18 2012 18:31 Xapti wrote: I'll just repeat a question I asked earlier: Is the Starcraft audience the same as the football and MMA audience? Will people want or appreciate eye candy as much or enough for it to work well? I don't think that can just be assumed. While it is likely, we should realize that we're dealing in a global thing —Chinese, and Swedes may have different opinions or be raised in different ways than "Americans" (USA), Russians, or Brazilians. The demographics are also different too; while it's still male, it's younger male, and perhaps less women-obsessed males (just throwing things out there, not saying it's true) Is the starcraft audience A-sexual? I personally don't want to be labeled as an a-sexual starcraft gamer... | ||
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finlurrrr
United States37 Posts
On July 18 2012 07:58 Vildhjerta wrote: Dear people of TeamLiquid. What I am writing is about how women are represented in the SCII community. I got to thinking of it because of the NASLs recent choice of hosts, in this case Lauren Elise. This is not criticism of her in any way, but only my own reflections on how much of an issue gender is. I hope I put this in the right forum. If not so, please redirect me.. I have been playing Starcraft for quite some time now and as every other player have I gotten to know the scene. I have seen a positive, supporting community, that is very male-dominated. It is natural that the community is dominated by the target audience of the game companies. From this you could come to the conclusion that hiring a good looking woman to be a host at an event is not a bad idea, since the majority of the audience might appreciate it. I am not going to go on about why objectifying people is bad etc, even though there is a lot to say about that. Instead I am going to talk about the Starcraft II scene and how it is affected by this, seemingly harmless, choice of an attractive hostess. First of all, what you look for in any kind of host is of course things like showmanship and charisma, but since this is a specific event, also the knowledge and love of Starcraft II is essential for a host not to make a fool out of oneself. There are several female profiles in the StarCraft community who possess the acquired knowledge and are passionate about the game, but Lauren Elise is, according to me, not one of them. Second of all you have to consider what message the choice of host sends. Does it say “we value people the same, regardless of what gender he/she is “? In a thread on TeamLiquid, the “NASL 3 Feedback thread”, Lauren is mentioned as “eye candy” by several different people. This attitude towards women is world-spread and nothing significant for e-sports, but unfortunate nonetheless. Having a playboy model as hostess gives the image that a woman in e-sports is a decoration for the male-dominated audience to enjoy. She is not a part of the event, even less so because of the fact that she was (probably) headhunted and has nothing to do with the community whatsoever. Lastly, Lauren Elise should not be blamed for this, even though she probably will be by some people. Comments on TL and other places sometimes express how “unfair” it is that girls get more attention than guys in the community. In Lauren’s case I agree; the attention is not well-deserved because she did not accomplish anything. Employing women this way will make it a lot harder for other people, who happen to be of the same gender as Lauren, to be taken for something serious. A girl like Lauren is not a good representative for the female gaming community, especially since she’s barely part of it. Hiring her gives the impression that women are qualified hostesses as long as they’re good looking. It is needless to say that the same does not go for the male hosts. The NASL should understand that, and the people working with big events should take the responsibility that comes with popularity. It is only until the majority of the people in e-sports want equality as we can have it that way. Competent hosts of big events, the male ones as well as the female ones, is just a start, but something that I think is important to build an equal community. What do you people think? Why does the NASL decision have to be one from the vantage point of social justice? Why is it a humanities/gender-studies issue rather than a cost/benefit decision made by those running the tournament? Companies run by "socially conscious" & hyper-sensitive idealists take their eyes off the mark. Companies are in business to provide value for their consumers, build value for their owners/shareholders, and follow the law. You probably have never ran a business before but I work for this carpenter who never hires female employees. He frankly doesn't care what you look like--he only cares if you're likely to be a good carpenting apprentice. He is a very successful businessman and customers love him & recommend him to friends & he never has to spend any $ on advertising. Sure you can take the existence of a business such as the NASL for granted, and start taking your eyes off the mark. But eventually you will start diminishing value for your stakeholders & begin incessantly trying to be politically correct about everything. Businesses and job creators should not have to give a damn about what socially-conscious, hyper-sensitive citizens think is culturally, politically acceptable at some point in time. | ||
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SnipedSoul
Canada2158 Posts
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OneBaseKing
Afghanistan412 Posts
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Exia0276
Hong Kong62 Posts
On July 18 2012 18:31 Xapti wrote: I'll just repeat a question I asked earlier: Is the Starcraft audience the same as the football and MMA audience? Will people want or appreciate eye candy as much or enough for it to work well? I don't think that can just be assumed. While it is likely, we should realize that we're dealing in a global thing —Chinese, and Swedes may have different opinions or be raised in different ways than "Americans" (USA), Russians, or Brazilians. The demographics are also different too; while it's still male, it's younger male, and perhaps less women-obsessed males (just throwing things out there, not saying it's true) Your question needs to go to the event organisers, but I'm pretty sure the answer is that her presence had an overall positive effect on viewership. I would not want to see her take the place of a analytical caster, but as some kind person mentioned in an earlier post, her job is not a caster but as a host. As long as she has the ability to help viewer retention, she's doing her job. | ||
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Cuce
Turkey1127 Posts
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Kuni
Austria765 Posts
On July 18 2012 18:21 MadProbe wrote: On topic : WTF someone is actually complaining about having a playboy model on stream? WHY in the fuck would you.... Then it hit me. OP is a woman. Vildhjerta is a swedish girl name. Google it. She made an account just to post this. ...It all makes sense now. After reading through half of the OP, the same thing crossed my mind. Didn't do research though, but oh well. It really makes sense ... bummer. Let's face it. The things Kennegit mentioned in his little video about not overrepresenting sexy flesh over players and other more important parts of the show are pretty valid. Taking this into account, That girl at NASL was never in the spotlight, not once. Yes, she did a little trivia with prizes, asked a few questions and in the end she got smashed in the face by Stephano and that video is now available on YouTube. NASL never put her in front of everything to show titties and ass. I was watching NASL and she was nice asset to the show. Maybe they could have done more with her, maybe not. Eye candy? Of fucking course. Bad thing? Hell no. IPL was bad where Anna and her red dress was shining all the way to Saturn, making the players seem unimportant. One part of the community values skill, the other is drawn to chicks no matter how they play. That's why there is a lot of hate and in the end all the morons who stalk the girls in gaming no matter how good they are at fault here. If you've ever been in a chat from a girl streamer ... it's disgusting. And even more so because other games who put in a lot of effort struggle to get the same numbers, even though their content is of MUCH more quality. And that's the reason for negative comments when a girl starts streaming and posts her stream with the first words in the title being "GIRL GAMER, HIHI ^^^^^^^". Feels like they're whoring themselves. The punter is to blame though. But all that has nothing to do with hosts. There is no problem with hosts being eye candy. And especially with Lauren at NASL it was all fine. She didn't go up to Drewbie thinking he was a spectator, making a fool of herself. She didn't do anything negative. | ||
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