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On July 18 2012 15:55 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 15:38 Dosey wrote:On July 18 2012 15:31 Rabiator wrote:On July 18 2012 14:55 Dosey wrote:On July 18 2012 14:09 Rabiator wrote:On July 18 2012 08:49 Dosey wrote:On July 18 2012 08:32 Vildhjerta wrote:On July 18 2012 08:22 CounterOrder wrote:On July 18 2012 08:14 Vildhjerta wrote:On July 18 2012 08:11 MetalPanda wrote:
I honestly see nothing wrong with eye candy for a job as minimal as she had to do. They think they help their product by hiring her, and maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, but in the end no one is hurt and there's no reason to complain about it. The way I see it, and also the perspective I wrote from, is that everyone actually is hurt by this. So I feel like there IS reasons to complain. What I mentioned was among other things that it makes it more difficult to take other women seriously. Having a hot host makes it harder to take women seriously? I dont get it, i dont think this community considers women a joke. You cant seriously make the argument that that chick caused any harm at all, or that anyone else would in her position. Its silly. Faculty: The problem is that those are posts posted by 13-15 year olds. They really shouldnt be given any weight and those people should honestly have gotten temp banned. Having a hot host makes it harder to take women seriously? My answer: No, but the host is in this case not related to SCII at all. Lets say there was a guy host that knew nothing about esports, do you think he would be appreciated? I would at least be thinking "what the hell is that guy doing here? why dont we get someone who knows what he's talking about?". The answer would in the case I wrote about ofc be "because she's good looking". Isn't it harmful that a woman with a non-existing relation to the community has been hired instead of a well-informed one, for an example? I stand by what I previously wrote, and agree to disagree on your claim of silliness :p She was asking trivia questions and showing the players to their booth. How is that harmful in any way? I guess booth girls are now harmful because they don't read the comics or play the games of the booths they represent? Erin Andrews doesn't play football or any other sport, she doesn't deserve to report on those sports. In fact, she is hurting ESPN because she's pretty! So, who would be qualified to ask trivia questions? I'm curious. The really important part is that someone needs to be qualified for their job and if you need to do any "free conversation" you have to have background knowledge on the whole topic or risk walking into a deadly trap. Asking trivia questions or knowing the names of a few characters can be learned in a few minutes and thus doesnt say anything about background knowledge. I didnt watch the event, but it seems that she was qualified enough for the job she was given, but Starcraft isnt a game focused on looks, so an especially attractive host isnt really a requirement, being entertaining and able to lead the crowd is as a host. It's not a requirement, but it's always a plus. The only thing I see here are sexually frustrated nerds that seem to resent beauty and the fact that beautiful women have invaded yet another scene where they "don't belong". A porn website was crashed, her videos went from middle of the crop to top 10 viewed, NASL maintained a large amount of viewership and discussion, and now NASL (and her) are getting all this attention. I'd say they achieved the desired effect, no? I would object much more to her having made a porn video or two than being female and having good looks. Personally I find it a really bad trend to make porn and prostitution acceptable in our societies and we even had one of the worse privately owned TV channels show a documentary about a pimp who owns one or more brothels. Having regular "documentaries" on the subject of prostitution is a set thing for all channels of that TV company here in germany and everything it does is making these things acceptable and "normal" in the society. The fun ends when I am overhearind 10-11 year old boys talking about sites where they can find naked females ... on their smartphones. Thus she should have been disqualified on the basis of having made porn vids and not her looks or knowledge of the game. What is so wrong about the naked body? She posed for playboy and did a video photoshoot, how is that in any way related to porn, prostitution, and brothels? While you're up there on your soap box preaching about irrelevant nonsense, you might want to look up the incidents of rape in countries where prostitution is legal vs illegal.  As I posted above the "box test" from DUNE is really the key, because it divides people of the homo sapiens species into two categories: humans and animals. As long as people keep thinking with their genitals and only about their own desires they will be animals. With such dangerous technology like we have today it becomes ever more important that we - and especially our leaders and powerful members of society - are NOT animals but rather humans instead who can say NO to a personal gain if it is a bad thing for society. So I would ask again: Could you say no to a naked, willing and unknown girl in you bedroom? Are you human or an animal?
I actually have... (friends brought home a couple strippers--long story) but I really don't see the point of that question. Humans are animals. Self-aware animals, but animals nonetheless. Our sole purpose in life is to live and procreate, just like every other animal. We just do it in a more... dramatic... fashion.
On July 18 2012 15:57 Euronyme wrote:
Yeah what's posing naked in a photo shoot and in a video to do with porn. It's like two completely different things!
I guess if you want to get into semantics... it is technically "softcore porn"
Let me ask you this though, do you consider nudists and topless beach goers as live action porn actresses then?
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I think trying to underplay the huge impact sexuality has on our society is naive at best. Attractive people fill the seats. There was no shortage of Starcraft expertise at the event with day9 and Clutch taking most of the main hosting roles themselves. Was that hostess objectified abit? Sure. Are men and women objectified on a daily basis? Yes. We should accept it as part of our nature to identify gender and how that affects our behavior. Trying to make everything "equal" or indiscriminate of sex is a very idealistic and unrealistic approach to the world.
By the way, she was hot, and I'm sure having a few hot girls in the Starcraft community doesn't hurt the female sex and it sure as hell doesn't hurt the women themselves.
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On July 18 2012 16:03 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 15:58 pookadin wrote:
The attitude to women you see in the eSports community is the same as in any other 'sporting' community that is heavily male orientated - I would like to say every community that is mostly male orientated, full-stop, but I feel some here might take offence.
I'm female so some might think I am biased here but I do think the attitude needs to change, but the problem isnt exclusively with our community..its everywhere..and its driven by modern culture. I'm not actually sure what you're talking about now. Are you speaking for or against the porn ladies at events? It's kind of divided here.
I'm saying that sex sells.
You will always see eye-candy on stage because thats what men want to see. Thats why models feature in advertisements etc etc. Sex just sells.
Its sad that majority of people cannot look past looks/weight and recoignise skill/knowledge - otherwise I feel that women community figures would feature more prominently at sc2 events. But the community is not that mature I feel to make that jump quite yet. (I am sorry to say so - reference Scarlett and EvE ridicule from the sc2 community).
I think the way women are portrayed is a deeper issue in society that has, inevitably, crept in to eSports. I regard that as normal though. There are definately 'male' jobs and 'female' jobs in the workforce still for example. Until these gender stereotypes are put aside, I don't think females will ever be portrayed as equals with males in eSports. eSports is still regarded as a 'male' community and females feature as 'fan-girls' or 'decorations to oogle' at events. Females are not taken seriously and draw a lot of ridicule when they do not excel - especially in a sexually demeaning way.
I think the attitudes in the community will not change any time soon. Gender stereotypes are too ingrained in our culture =/
TD;DR: Females are treated like they belong on the fringes of the community, not like they belong in the community
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On July 18 2012 08:09 Vildhjerta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 08:04 Pazuzu wrote:
While i agree with what youre saying in theory, the problem is that there are very few women with comparable knowledge/passion/enthusiasm for starcraft with say, Day9, Bitterdam, Gretorp, Frodan and all the other male casters. its not a matter of inequality, whether on purpose or not, its just that currently there are more qualified male casters/hosts etc.
As shown in professional athletics, having attractive women is an effective advertising method, and while it would be a step forward in the diversity of the community to have a woman caster/host etc, i think people would rather have only male casters if it would mean a higher level of competency/analysis/energy. As a whole i think the community would welcome a woman caster or host with open arms as long as they are also competent, which is the core issue here. I personally feel like I'd rather have only competent casters etc if there were no good female ones. But I know there are, and that's why I'm disturbed by the fact that the girls asked to do these jobs are not the ones who should be asked, but they are models chosen for their looks. Do you not think that attitude might work against women trying to get into the scene as well? If the general opinion is "there are no good female casters etc", it might be dificult for a female to step forward and get accepted, even if she IS as good as any other caster. Does she get the same chances?
Agreed. Probably not.
I think "eye candy" in general need not be a big deal. Most Hollywood movies put some eye candy in them, and depending on the type of movie, there is male eye candy for females as well.
But in an environment like e-sports where we hardly see any women in a significant role, it's probably different. Here, using hostesses often only means to enrich a men's world with some females for men's amusement, which makes things worse.
I agree the most important thing would be to give women a real chance as players and casters. Like the poster you replied to, I don't know any good female casters, but unlike him, I don't believe there aren't any. It would be worthwile for people who are responsible for tournaments to take a good look around for female candidates to hire before deciding they don't exist.
This isn't only a gender problem by the way. I often wonder why the hell television stations use the same couple of show hosts again and again over decades - it's so boring. Are there really only half a dozen talented people in a country of millions? Nonsense. It is because executives 1. are lazy and 2. tend to do what is proven to work, which makes sense from a business standpoint. So they and viewers alike need to make a decision to give newcomers a chance.
And the women themselves - maybe they can come forward more? People like Husky got e-famous by putting up their hard work on youtube, and while I can't be sure, I would believe that a female caster who is really good would have a chance to get her viewers too.
Edit: About NASL - I always found it kind of disgraceful to have two all-male casting duos and in between have Zoe explain (to children apparently) what a Zergling is. To get things started, why not give Zoe a casting gig - and maybe ask MrBitter to explain what a Zergling is. He probably would refuse, and rightfully so.
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NASL will hire the person they belive can bring to most viewers to the event for the cheapest of costs, while maintaining a good reputation for future events. I honestly don't care if the host is male or female, what i care about is if the host is a recogniseable character such as day9, 2GD or similar. I think the desicion was right to bring in a female, cause i think people appreciate it.
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Gender should have no bearing on anything. In an e-Sports community, talent and ability should be the only factors that are considered.
Obviously, since a community like this is largely male orientated however, it does have 'bonuses' if the girl is particularly appealing visually, from a fanbase point of view, but teams shouldn't treat them like trophies. Players like Aphrodite or Eve, who rarely play, just seem like token females on their respective teams.
As for casters, I think its ok currently from what I've seen. Could do with some more though, but perhaps this is due to lack of females getting into the scene, rather than lack of females considered for the role.
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On July 18 2012 16:33 Fus wrote:
NASL will hire the person they belive can bring to most viewers to the event for the cheapest of costs, while maintaining a good reputation for future events. I honestly don't care if the host is male or female, what i care about is if the host is a recogniseable character such as day9, 2GD or similar. I think the desicion was right to bring in a female, cause i think people appreciate it.
If you can only accept people you already know, how do you ever get to know someone new?
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what do you guys think of scarlett? does she count as female? maybe we could get all sc2 pro-gamers to get a sex change. Then we would have tons of females in starcraft
edit- we could also ask MMA's pro advice on how to treat women. with all that positive interaction with slayersjessica he would be an expert at getting women into sc2
User was banned for this post.
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On July 18 2012 16:40 procrastibation wrote:
what do you guys think of scarlett? does she count as female? maybe we could get all sc2 pro-gamers to get a sex change. Then we would have tons of females in starcraft
edit- we could also ask MMA's pro advice on how to treat women. with all that positive interaction with slayersjessica he would be an expert at getting women into sc2
can of worms
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On July 18 2012 07:58 Vildhjerta wrote:
What do you people think?
That all the people complaining about eye candy are stupid.
She wasn't a host, she was there to look good and give out prizes or something. If NASL wants to pay someone for that, fine. They also had Soe and she actually did stuff besides looking pretty.
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What an amazing topic title.
Just hire people that have merit. If you want someone to just stand there looking attractive, go for it.
It blows my mind that people think this is a genuine issue in the scene, if attractive women want to be a part of our little world, let them. God knows we could use some more sex-appeal.
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Hmm I don't find it a big deal when a female wants to get into the SC2 community, however, since it's so male based, everyone seems to make a huge fuss.
Also, there are a lot of females who are doing an awesome job in the SC2 community at least in my opinion, such as Anna Prosser, Smix and Angella Kim (the GOM show).
Personally though, I disliked Soe since she asked a few questions which were very weird and overall, she seemed quite inexperienced. Perhaps she'll improve in the future though.
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As Seinfeld said "You never see any handsome homeless"
Is it fair to blackball someone because of legal jobs they have had in the past?
Which is really the only controversy. If she was just hot, few would care.
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On July 18 2012 16:40 procrastibation wrote:
what do you guys think of scarlett? does she count as female? maybe we could get all sc2 pro-gamers to get a sex change. Then we would have tons of females in starcraft
edit- we could also ask MMA's pro advice on how to treat women. with all that positive interaction with slayersjessica he would be an expert at getting women into sc2
if this isn't a ban...
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You are complaining about the objectifying of women and how we are assigning them gender roles when we hire them as "eye candy." But you think that you're the one to assign them their role and that they should behave as you see fit or should be hired based on qualities you prefer they have? well fuck off
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On July 18 2012 16:17 pookadin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 16:03 Euronyme wrote:On July 18 2012 15:58 pookadin wrote:
The attitude to women you see in the eSports community is the same as in any other 'sporting' community that is heavily male orientated - I would like to say every community that is mostly male orientated, full-stop, but I feel some here might take offence.
I'm female so some might think I am biased here but I do think the attitude needs to change, but the problem isnt exclusively with our community..its everywhere..and its driven by modern culture. I'm not actually sure what you're talking about now. Are you speaking for or against the porn ladies at events? It's kind of divided here. I'm saying that sex sells. You will always see eye-candy on stage because thats what men want to see. Thats why models feature in advertisements etc etc. Sex just sells. Its sad that majority of people cannot look past looks/weight and recoignise skill/knowledge - otherwise I feel that women community figures would feature more prominently at sc2 events. But the community is not that mature I feel to make that jump quite yet. (I am sorry to say so - reference Scarlett and EvE ridicule from the sc2 community). I think the way women are portrayed is a deeper issue in society that has, inevitably, crept in to eSports. I regard that as normal though. There are definately 'male' jobs and 'female' jobs in the workforce still for example. Until these gender stereotypes are put aside, I don't think females will ever be portrayed as equals with males in eSports. eSports is still regarded as a 'male' community and females feature as 'fan-girls' or 'decorations to oogle' at events. Females are not taken seriously and draw a lot of ridicule when they do not excel - especially in a sexually demeaning way. I think the attitudes in the community will not change any time soon. Gender stereotypes are too ingrained in our culture =/ TD;DR: Females are treated like they belong on the fringes of the community, not like they belong in the community
See, eye candy is something that's incredibly rare where I'm from. I think e-sports is the first time I've ever heard about it really. Yeah there's commercials and stuff, but that's different.
I can see how it creates identity problems with objectified women along side with women who compete.
Scarlett has a pretty solid following from what I can see though, so I think (hope) she's atleast getting more praises than ridicule. She's actually really good at the game too.
I think what also really puts women in e-sports in this uncomfortable chair is that many of the outspoken e-sports women are people who use tags such as 'RaGiNg-GaMeR-gurl-XXX-b00bs'. That along with often presenting themselves first and foremost as girls accentuates the whole view on women in e-sports, I think.
E-sports is viewed as a male community because so few women are willing to put in the time to excel at it. If you say the word 'computer nerd' I dare say no one would think of a woman.
On July 18 2012 16:17 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 15:55 Rabiator wrote:On July 18 2012 15:38 Dosey wrote:On July 18 2012 15:31 Rabiator wrote:On July 18 2012 14:55 Dosey wrote:On July 18 2012 14:09 Rabiator wrote:On July 18 2012 08:49 Dosey wrote:On July 18 2012 08:32 Vildhjerta wrote:On July 18 2012 08:22 CounterOrder wrote:On July 18 2012 08:14 Vildhjerta wrote:
[quote]
The way I see it, and also the perspective I wrote from, is that everyone actually is hurt by this. So I feel like there IS reasons to complain. What I mentioned was among other things that it makes it more difficult to take other women seriously. Having a hot host makes it harder to take women seriously? I dont get it, i dont think this community considers women a joke. You cant seriously make the argument that that chick caused any harm at all, or that anyone else would in her position. Its silly. Faculty: The problem is that those are posts posted by 13-15 year olds. They really shouldnt be given any weight and those people should honestly have gotten temp banned. Having a hot host makes it harder to take women seriously? My answer: No, but the host is in this case not related to SCII at all. Lets say there was a guy host that knew nothing about esports, do you think he would be appreciated? I would at least be thinking "what the hell is that guy doing here? why dont we get someone who knows what he's talking about?". The answer would in the case I wrote about ofc be "because she's good looking". Isn't it harmful that a woman with a non-existing relation to the community has been hired instead of a well-informed one, for an example? I stand by what I previously wrote, and agree to disagree on your claim of silliness :p She was asking trivia questions and showing the players to their booth. How is that harmful in any way? I guess booth girls are now harmful because they don't read the comics or play the games of the booths they represent? Erin Andrews doesn't play football or any other sport, she doesn't deserve to report on those sports. In fact, she is hurting ESPN because she's pretty! So, who would be qualified to ask trivia questions? I'm curious. The really important part is that someone needs to be qualified for their job and if you need to do any "free conversation" you have to have background knowledge on the whole topic or risk walking into a deadly trap. Asking trivia questions or knowing the names of a few characters can be learned in a few minutes and thus doesnt say anything about background knowledge. I didnt watch the event, but it seems that she was qualified enough for the job she was given, but Starcraft isnt a game focused on looks, so an especially attractive host isnt really a requirement, being entertaining and able to lead the crowd is as a host. It's not a requirement, but it's always a plus. The only thing I see here are sexually frustrated nerds that seem to resent beauty and the fact that beautiful women have invaded yet another scene where they "don't belong". A porn website was crashed, her videos went from middle of the crop to top 10 viewed, NASL maintained a large amount of viewership and discussion, and now NASL (and her) are getting all this attention. I'd say they achieved the desired effect, no? I would object much more to her having made a porn video or two than being female and having good looks. Personally I find it a really bad trend to make porn and prostitution acceptable in our societies and we even had one of the worse privately owned TV channels show a documentary about a pimp who owns one or more brothels. Having regular "documentaries" on the subject of prostitution is a set thing for all channels of that TV company here in germany and everything it does is making these things acceptable and "normal" in the society. The fun ends when I am overhearind 10-11 year old boys talking about sites where they can find naked females ... on their smartphones. Thus she should have been disqualified on the basis of having made porn vids and not her looks or knowledge of the game. What is so wrong about the naked body? She posed for playboy and did a video photoshoot, how is that in any way related to porn, prostitution, and brothels? While you're up there on your soap box preaching about irrelevant nonsense, you might want to look up the incidents of rape in countries where prostitution is legal vs illegal. As I posted above the "box test" from DUNE is really the key, because it divides people of the homo sapiens species into two categories: humans and animals. As long as people keep thinking with their genitals and only about their own desires they will be animals. With such dangerous technology like we have today it becomes ever more important that we - and especially our leaders and powerful members of society - are NOT animals but rather humans instead who can say NO to a personal gain if it is a bad thing for society. So I would ask again: Could you say no to a naked, willing and unknown girl in you bedroom? Are you human or an animal? I actually have... (friends brought home a couple strippers--long story) but I really don't see the point of that question. Humans are animals. Self-aware animals, but animals nonetheless. Our sole purpose in life is to live and procreate, just like every other animal. We just do it in a more... dramatic... fashion. Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 15:57 Euronyme wrote:
Yeah what's posing naked in a photo shoot and in a video to do with porn. It's like two completely different things! I guess if you want to get into semantics... it is technically "softcore porn" Let me ask you this though, do you consider nudists and topless beach goers as live action porn actresses then?
No, not unless they're being photographed / taped and published / put up on the internet. What kind of weird question is that anyway? Being naked =/= porn. Being naked while having a film crew around you filming you = porn. Unless it's for some kind of art or medical thing, but that's a different story and not really relevant.
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Yes, TL surely needs some more political correctness, as well as SC2 scene...
FFS, focus on the game instead of some imaginary issues.
I don't get how a pretty girl hosting an event is a bad thing, I also don't know why should anyone get special treatment because they don't have a penis.
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I don't think too hard into this. But i was happy to have my two favorite things in the same place. Starcraft and hot women.
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On July 18 2012 16:36 FrogOfWar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 16:33 Fus wrote:
NASL will hire the person they belive can bring to most viewers to the event for the cheapest of costs, while maintaining a good reputation for future events. I honestly don't care if the host is male or female, what i care about is if the host is a recogniseable character such as day9, 2GD or similar. I think the desicion was right to bring in a female, cause i think people appreciate it. If you can only accept people you already know, how do you ever get to know someone new?
I'm antisocial so i don't =)
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Sex sells - particularly to a male-dominated community. Denying it is futile, naive and turning a blind eye to the reality of business. What do you think the purpose of race queens are?
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EPT
