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On July 12 2012 05:50 RogerChillingworth wrote:
swarm host is gonna really change the forge-fe metagame. i just hope they dont nerf these units to hell, but they probably will. locusts already spawn pretty seldomly imo.
I agree with the latter part, but not the former.
If the swarm host is anything like how it was in the previews and the custom map, it'll have limited if any use in the current game. Basically you could burrow some of them over near a far expansion and keep it constantly under pressure it might make them throw down a bunch of static defenses (which would only delay its eventual death) or split off part of their army which would enable you to attack their main army with a slight advantage.
Basically this unit isn't going to be ground-breaking and where it fits in is basically extreme lategame where keeping all the outlying expansions alive and mining is more critical. Otherwise they're just extra supply that are broken away from your army and don't really add a ton of damaging power.
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I like the Lurker, but I might like Swarm Hosts more because of its use against tank contains.. damn tanks...
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On July 12 2012 05:46 LimeNade wrote:
I don't really see the point in this. How can people already be bashing the swarm host when no one has realistically had any time to even see how it'll work out in HOTS. I would say leave this question for after the release of HOTS to see how things pan out. For all we know this could become a much more epic unit then we see atm.
Unit concept. By design the SH is a shitty copy of the Lurker. That's how we can make statements and polls like this, because Blizzard has shown us the SH and even let some of us test it at Anaheim!
If we had NO idea of how it worked then yes, it would be futile to comment on it...
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On July 12 2012 05:57 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 05:50 RogerChillingworth wrote:
swarm host is gonna really change the forge-fe metagame. i just hope they dont nerf these units to hell, but they probably will. locusts already spawn pretty seldomly imo. I agree with the latter part, but not the former. If the swarm host is anything like how it was in the previews and the custom map, it'll have limited if any use in the current game. Basically you could burrow some of them over near a far expansion and keep it constantly under pressure it might make them throw down a bunch of static defenses (which would only delay its eventual death) or split off part of their army which would enable you to attack their main army with a slight advantage. Basically this unit isn't going to be ground-breaking and where it fits in is basically extreme lategame where keeping all the outlying expansions alive and mining is more critical. Otherwise they're just extra supply that are broken away from your army and don't really add a ton of damaging power.
It'll give free units to buffer the first shot tanks before sending your whole army, it's pretty useful for being more cost effective (and you can use them the whole game if you can keep them alive)
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Not going to derail the thread, but:
Fellowship of the Ring was by far the worst LOTR movie. It took the richness of the original novel and struggled to bring that to screen while introducing everybody and progressing the plot. I think Two Towers succeeds much better (and especially Return of the King) because they make assumptions, and Fellowship does not. The reveal of Strider as Aragorn is downplayed. Bombadil never shows up. We are given full flashbacks (admittedly badass) of Elrond as a warrior but basically made to assume the skill of everybody else.
If The Hobbit manages to bring the same pacing to its source, it will a) waste some amazing writing, as The Hobbit is the better novel, IMO, and b) be significantly worse than LOTR. I have high expectations given the cast and crew, but come on; do we really want to be reintroduced to Bilbo and Gandalf, or can the movie just assume we know who they are? It's a delicate balance.
Moreover, the reintroduction of characters from LOTR strikes me as fan service in the highest order. I don't see how they can stretch this story into two films and still have the same punch that the novel did. It's not like there is a very good thematic divide! Even LOTR suffered from this kind of pacing. People complain that at the end of ROTK, there were too many endings. Perhaps what you are actually bothered by is the fact that the movie lacked a narrative arc, since it arcs and dips so many times. (True to Tolkein's original vision of a six novel epic.)
In conclusion, Peter Jackson should be in charge of balance.
User was warned for this post (off topic)
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On July 12 2012 05:57 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 05:52 0neder wrote:On July 12 2012 05:46 Bleak wrote:
Lurkers wouldn't do anything in SC2. Stimmed Marauders with Medivacs and Colossus would destroy it so hard.) Lurkers don't do anything in BW. Stimmed Micro M&M, tanks, spider mines, vultures, goliaths, air units, dragoons, reavers, irradiate, psionic storm, observers, science vessels, etc. destroy it SOOO HARD. See what I did there? This reasoning that Lurkers would somehow be useless in SC2 or that we can't reasonably understand the Swarm Host's applications in HotS are ridiculous. It's a burrowing brood lord that's good as an indirect pressure unit but useless as a direct attacking unit/defensive unit that can kill small groups of units. The lurker can do all of those things. The lurker can not do much the swarm host cant but ok, think as you wish. Swarm host will work on defense and offense although better on offense. Stop whining about wanting BW back please. Go play BW or go enjoy the OSL finals while it lasts.
I just said specifically what the Lurker can do and why the Swarm Host is inferior because it's less versatile:
1 - The Lurker is a direct attack units that can engage in sustained combat in a few seconds. The Swarm Host is not.
2 - The Lurker can kill entire small groups of units, the swarm host cannot.
Pigeon-holed units are bad unit design. Versatile units that are still unique are good unit design.
And finally, I never whined or talked about wanting BW back. I want good unit design. If Browder and his team had better design ideas, these threads wouldn't be so popular. Nobody really criticized creep spread/tumor mechanic when it came out. Why? Because they recognized it as a logical extension of zerg and a fundamentally good game design idea. Give us a better new unit than the current bad idea and we'll stop talking about the old units. That is Browder's task.
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I actually like the Swarm Host. Its a great seige unit, and its constant resupply is great to reinforce any army.
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I would be more intrested in the Swarm Host if it weren't so slow and actually had some balls.
It should have Roach speed(with upgrade) an instantly release 5 locust the second it burrows. Locust should be as fast as a Zergling.
It should also be the evolution of a Roach. For example, you have to upgrade the Roach Warren into a Swarm Hole. That way its scoutable. The current idea of unlocking it with infestation pit is stupid.
Infestation pit unlocks Infestors, Swarm Hosts, and Hive.
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ok.. in BW. when lurkers burrowed and had like a second delay before attacking.. it was like HOLY SHIT.. IS IT GOING TO DO TERRIBLE DAMAGE? or the opponent micros out of the way. it was fucking sick. ive seen the swarm host and locusts in action.. really.. its like okay lets spawn some strong broodlings every once in awhile and slowly attack some shit.
the hydra speed upg, i think, will help bring back the beloved hydralisk. however, the lurker upgrade would be fucking epic. midgame hydras.. who knows.. is the Z going to stop producing hydras and tech up? or is he going to make lurkers? hydras roach muta. who knows. im just psyched for this fucking game.why cant we have both!?
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On July 12 2012 04:17 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 04:12 Antylamon wrote:
The Lurker would NOT break up deathball play. Toss would just use obs to detect and Colossi to outrange.
Plus, Lurker would be Hive tech, ruining its BW purpose of delaying the game until Hive tech. Ultralisks and Brood Lords overshadow it completely, and the Lurker would barely see any use except for containing, harassing, etc.
Nobody seems to understand what it means for Lurkers to be Hive tech -.- People barely know anything about game design. Their pseudo-reasoning is more emotional than rational and since it is the tradition in TL to revere SC:BW up to an absurd point, these people are just copying what the others are doing.
See at the same time this doesn't really make sense (his reasoning of Hive tech) b/c that was where the lurker was positioned around the end of the alpha before they went into WoL beta.
There is no restriction of Hive tech - bringing back your "pseudo reasoning" statement, and if the lurker could be implemented it is only rational to assume that its position in the tech tree can also be moved as well.
There is nothing that prevents Blizzard from immediately allowing lurkers to be built from hydras or requring an upgrade at lair for them...
Nothing at all. And obviously, to compensate for all the new forms of "terrible terrible damage," lurkers would be given "terrible terrible damage" of their own, lol.
I am arguing along the basis of unit concepts and how their concepts work to fulfill the role they were designed for (space control). Lurker does it better.
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On July 12 2012 06:04 RawrbHero wrote:
I actually like the Swarm Host. Its a great seige unit, and its constant resupply is great to reinforce any army.
But it's not constant, it released two proxy units every 10 seconds. It can't directly engage units offensively or defensively. The Lurker (or the new unit we'd rather have) should have direct, constant attacking so it's not pigeonholed in its application.
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If they gave zerg the lurker instead of the swarm host it would actually be an incentive to make hydras!
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On July 12 2012 06:05 Qwyn wrote:
I am arguing along the basis of unit concepts and how their concepts work to fulfill the role they were designed for (space control). Lurker does it better.
Exactly. We want the Lurker OR something better. Not something worse. That's what these threads are about.
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The problem with the swarm host is that he doesn't look swarmy. At all.
He makes two roaches every 15 seconds. Not exactly a swarm.
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On July 12 2012 06:06 TheWorldToCome wrote:
If they gave zerg the lurker instead of the swarm host it would actually be an incentive to make hydras!
LOL. Not to mention the new hydra speed upgrade!
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36990 Posts
On July 12 2012 06:02 Sherlock-Canada wrote:
Not going to derail the thread, but:
Fellowship of the Ring was by far the worst LOTR movie. It took the richness of the original novel and struggled to bring that to screen while introducing everybody and progressing the plot. I think Two Towers succeeds much better (and especially Return of the King) because they make assumptions, and Fellowship does not. The reveal of Strider as Aragorn is downplayed. Bombadil never shows up. We are given full flashbacks (admittedly badass) of Elrond as a warrior but basically made to assume the skill of everybody else.
If The Hobbit manages to bring the same pacing to its source, it will a) waste some amazing writing, as The Hobbit is the better novel, IMO, and b) be significantly worse than LOTR. I have high expectations given the cast and crew, but come on; do we really want to be reintroduced to Bilbo and Gandalf, or can the movie just assume we know who they are? It's a delicate balance.
Moreover, the reintroduction of characters from LOTR strikes me as fan service in the highest order. I don't see how they can stretch this story into two films and still have the same punch that the novel did. It's not like there is a very good thematic divide! Even LOTR suffered from this kind of pacing. People complain that at the end of ROTK, there were too many endings. Perhaps what you are actually bothered by is the fact that the movie lacked a narrative arc, since it arcs and dips so many times. (True to Tolkein's original vision of a six novel epic.)
In conclusion, Peter Jackson should be in charge of balance.
May I just say that right now everyone should just stop posting.
This guy won the thread
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On July 12 2012 05:59 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 05:46 LimeNade wrote:
I don't really see the point in this. How can people already be bashing the swarm host when no one has realistically had any time to even see how it'll work out in HOTS. I would say leave this question for after the release of HOTS to see how things pan out. For all we know this could become a much more epic unit then we see atm. Unit concept. By design the SH is a shitty copy of the Lurker. That's how we can make statements and polls like this, because Blizzard has shown us the SH and even let some of us test it at Anaheim! If we had NO idea of how it worked then yes, it would be futile to comment on it...
How can you say that though? Lurker had yearsssssssssssss of playing to see how it would work out. You are saying a few hours that people may have played with the SH at anaheim justifies it to be a shitty copy of the lurker? Everyone said that the infestor was a huge joke of a unit when Sc2 came out at first and that it was a shitty copy \ replacement for a defiler but now its a staple unit for zerg in every match up.
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I think I'd need to play with them for a while before I can even decide. They looked like fun (to play with, maybe not to play against) in the Battle Reports.
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The reason why they couldn't find a "place" for the lurker is because in SC2 they made the Hydra a tier 2 unit which requires lair tech. And how does one make a lurker? It has to be researched and then morph from a Hydra. This would make the Lurker a tier 2.5/3 unit, and they already have that part of the game filled. What they should have done during the beta was switch the Hydra to a tier one unit (change stats accordingly) and stopped nerfing the Roach and make it a tier two unit like the Hydra is today. Unfortunately Blizzard is long past the point of no return with this, so they can only create a new unit that is somewhat similar to the Lurker without being a tier 2.5/3 unit.
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We require more Battle Reports, but I think the reason we haven't heard from Blizzard anything new is the result of alot of mixed emotions in regards to Multiplayer.
DB said that Singleplayer was done in one of his interviews.
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