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There will obviously be balance shifts when gameplay values are changed. Nobody is claiming otherwise. This thread is about the effect these changes have on the clarity and spectator-friendliness of SC2. |
Even if you would have this cool thing that keeps your units spread it doesn't matter because the maps are so ******** choky that you will have to clump up your units when you wanna move them somewhere.
Like do you think this could happen on a normal map ?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1jyDH.jpg)
Of course not because there's 1-2 places on every map where you can have spread like this.
One of the main problems with maps is that there isn't that much space which makes unit clumping, forcefields, emps, storms, fungal, colossi etc stupid. On most maps if you want to attack somewhere you need to box your shit, a-move and cross your fingers that you won't get raped by one of those. Look at BW maps, there's so much more space compared to SC2 maps.
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On July 03 2012 22:54 zezamer wrote:Most of SC2 maps are garbage tbh. Even if you would have this cool thing that keeps your units spread it doesn't matter because the maps are so ******** choky that you will have to clump up your units when you wanna move them somewhere. Like do you think this could happen on a normal map ? Of course not because there's 1-2 places on every map where you can have spread like this. One of the main problems with maps is that there isn't that much space which makes unit clumping, forcefields, emps, storms, fungal, colossi etc stupid. On most maps if you want to attack somewhere you need to box your shit, a-move and cross your fingers that you won't get raped by one of those. Look at BW maps, there's so much more space compared to SC2 maps.
There's plenty of space. The problem isn't lack of space; it's the fact that there is no need (and it is actually a bad idea) to not have a deathball.
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On July 03 2012 22:47 MavercK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 22:45 Qwyn wrote:On July 03 2012 22:35 MavercK wrote:
one more thing i have to say.
consider this
two players vs'ing each other
one has this activated, the other does not.
the guys army thats all split up will melt, absolutely melt, in seconds, to the other players standard death ball. it would be the most one sided battle in history.
people really seem missguided and aren't explaining their reasons at all. See, that doesn't really make sense. All this does is allow units to stay in formation without clumping up at their destination into a giant pile of shit. It doesn't make the units move in a congo line unless YOU create the congo line. (Also, what do you mean "activated?" Both players would be using it. If I wanted to make a giant ball then I would click in the center of my unit mass). Now, you said to explain the reasons why one might want this to be implemented. There are several positonal reasons, and a lot more to do with gameflow, but the MAIN reason why I want this pathing change is so that high damage AOE can be implemented. High damage AOE would prevent the situation that you described. The player that has his army clumped up in a ball would have his army "absolutely melt, in seconds" to a disproportionately lower amount of the other player's AOE. It would reward better positioning and at the same time make formations and better concaves easier to maintain (no more fucking clump after every move command). In regards to the AOE I am specifically looking towards HOTS. With the pathing change the lurker could actually be implemented instead of some gay-ass substitute, the tank could be buffed significantly, storm, all sorts of shit (fuck collosi). you've also missunderstood me, maybe i worded my post badly, i asked for reasons why they think this removes skill and would be a bad thing. i agree that i want this. the same as you. example being the guy above me, "this would be horrible, removes skill/micro" end of post. HOW EXACTLY? i'd really like to know because im amazed, absolutely amazed at these posts. again. people still had to split in BW and units were way way way way less clumped.
Oh lol I'm sorry man. I get it now.
Yeah I feel like out of all the things that people want changed in SCII this is the one that has the greatest chance of actually being implemented (as opposed to the economy thread) and would also make the game 10x more fun to watch, which is why I leapt on the bandwagon, lol.
EDIT: Ok now I really get what you are trying to say. Basically - current system leads to gay 2 second clusterfuck battles between piles of shit. Can't have an on/off option b/c the deathball would rape the split army.
The issue with this fix though is that you can still clump up your army into a deathball if you really want to - but this change would allow high damage AOE to be implemented in HOTS. As it stands with WOL there aren't enough deathball deterrents.
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The main thing why I am against Deathballs is because they are the reason why a player can lose an entire game just by not paying attention in the wrong moment (e.g. when he is macroing in his base).
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Can't remember the last time my units ran around in a deathball, well except they had to only fight non aoe melee units or where some sort of uncontrolled raiding force.
I mean Bronze players can already magic box and move units around, but they have to focus on it fully. Especially if a move would keep the magic box, that would make the game to simple. It is more risky yes, but if you have a good scouting, moving in formation has almost no risk involved, compared to a moving, which gets more risky the better player you face.
All the spreading you see still from terrans, thats so horrible. Especially when you see them a move marines over half a screen after spreading them to get in range of a hatch, while infestors are still around but without an backup army. Why not move que hold position. Infestors could only watch instead of fungal the marine blob to death, there wouldn't even be risk involved in fail moving.
Well no problem with making it easier on move command, but they should clump on a move on any position. Simple because its the best way to form a ball against melee units and because you don't have to learn an invisible circle where you have to click in order to form a ball.
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Will certainly try this later today, really appreciate you providing a map to try this out. I really hope our community can rally behind this idea, because once tournaments start using maps with these settings there is no way for blizzard to not make this happen. We shouldn't even discuss whether or not this would make the game harder or whatever, this would fix one of the main issues bw fans, and especially korean bw fans have with star 2, if we fix that the game actually has a chance in korea.
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How about getting rid of infinite multiple selection also? One of the few wow factors in sc2 is unit splitting. I'd like to see more micro in big fights.
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On July 03 2012 23:09 billy5000 wrote:
How about getting rid of infinite multiple selection also? One of the few wow factors in sc2 is unit splitting. I'd like to see more micro in big fights.
Are people still griping about unit selection in SC2? I thought we're done with that.
Great job OP. Looks great.
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Intentional design is intentional.
We can argue until we are blue in the face (well you can, I'm not because I'm not wasting my time), whether it was a "good" design choice to have units ball-up or not. At the end of the day, that is what Blizzard chose, and all the AoE and most of the unit damage in the game was designed around that mechanic. This is why psi storm is MUCH smaller in SC2 (among other things).
So... yeah. Enjoy it if it "looks better..." to you, but this will never happen, as they would have to change much more than just unit pathing.
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Russian Federation1613 Posts
Blizzard should pay attention on it somehow! Please...
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I'm only for this if AOE was buffed, especially tanks and storm. I think this would make unit splitting even easier than it already is, split your units once and a-move, suddenly your army is counter proof to certain AOE. It makes certain things easier and other things (like getting a perfect concave) much harder, but still nerfs AOE quite a bit.
I'm really all for this, but you can't just release something like this and not expect other things to change to compensate.
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I really don't understand why people are insisting on failing to understand why it is called a "Deathball".
Pros don't call it "Deathball" because when you move your army it clumps up. It's only the starter component.
Pros call it "Deathball" because it's about units. 20 clumped up marines doesn't form a "Deathball".
It's about Colossus, Immortal etc. When you have these kind of units, even without clumping, you will want to get your army to babysit those units. Do you actually think people will just leave colossus with less units or move separately if this gets implemented?
No.
May be a buff on AOE would make people change their mind. But that's also risky, can have other consequences.
EDIT: I am not saying this suggestion is bad, it's better. But people need to see it's not only about army movement but also about units aswell.
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The look is amazing. Visually, the scene of the troops walking in a heterogeneous formation makes it look much more realistic. Add more excitement from my point of view.
And I do not understand people who just say "NO, THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN EVER, BECAUSE THEN BLIZZARD WOULD HAVE TO CHANGE ALL!"
Sometimes it seems like you want it easier for Blizzard instead of improving the game as possible.
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At first, after looking at the video, I thought this was a brilliant idea, but after reading the subsequent posts, I must agree that this change would destroy a lot of SC2. Half of the "skill" in SC2 is simply /not/A-moving. You look at a lot of professional games, and you'll see that their engagements (usually) isn't just box-and-go. There's time to position, get a concave, etc etc as mentioned by other people before.
Finding new ways to effectively split up your armies is definitely /the/ thing to do in the future after the metagame is more or less stable. The reason I say this is because there are a lot of "bad" engagements when it comes to using a large air-fleet (a big muta/viking/phoenix ball). One storm or fungal, and that entire air group is almost dead. There definitely will be advancements to prevent that.
I must agree that the battles would look "bigger" with this MM change (I personally would enjoy it), but I would argue that even without this change, in a few years (or so), players will start controlling their armies in that way since more and more AoE stuff are being added into the game via the expansions.
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This would certainly add another level of skill to the game, trying to arrange your units while they are moving. Really looks cool. Not sure it would ever be implemented, but still cool.
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it's common sense that aoe will have to get increased again if this ever gets implemented. And as people have said you can still clump up your units.
Maps will play a large part in this as well. If a toss decides to enagage the natural of a zerg which has a choke in front of it, he can hold him off with a few fungals since the toss will be clumped up. So this will mean the toss will have to engage multiple fronts to prevent this from happening.
Same argument can be made from either race's side (with templar/siege tanks/...).
And if toss still insists on keeping his entire army in a ball in open battles, aoe will rape their armies. So they will have to split up, attack multiple fronts even with collussi/immortals. Imagine a group of 8 stalkers, a sentry or two, a collussi and an immortal attacking one side of the map. While on the other side of the map you have some phoenix harrassment going on. While in the meantime you've got an attack going on a the protoss natural. Sounds so much cooler than: 'oh well here we are, 1 a 200 food stalkers/collussi/sentry'. 5 seconds later: 'Oh look I won, how nice.'
TLDR: improving aoe's DPS/range/size/damage/... will be of vital importance paired with the change of unit movement. One can not be without the other.
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On July 03 2012 23:34 uikos wrote:
At first, after looking at the video, I thought this was a brilliant idea, but after reading the subsequent posts, I must agree that this change would destroy a lot of SC2. Half of the "skill" in SC2 is simply /not/A-moving. You look at a lot of professional games, and you'll see that their engagements (usually) isn't just box-and-go. There's time to position, get a concave, etc etc as mentioned by other people before.
Finding new ways to effectively split up your armies is definitely /the/ thing to do in the future after the metagame is more or less stable. The reason I say this is because there are a lot of "bad" engagements when it comes to using a large air-fleet (a big muta/viking/phoenix ball). One storm or fungal, and that entire air group is almost dead. There definitely will be advancements to prevent that.
I must agree that the battles would look "bigger" with this MM change (I personally would enjoy it), but I would argue that even without this change, in a few years (or so), players will start controlling their armies in that way since more and more AoE stuff are being added into the game via the expansions.
Well, you can do all that unit maneuvering and positioning by yourself. Often it is very much so favourable to get a clump of units (for example marines against zerglings). But if you want to slowly push and fear splash damage (for example in TvZ Fungal or in TvT tanks against marines) you don't have to constantly fight against your units hugging each other, so a positive assumption that you could make is that you actually get more control over your units and don't have to artificially fight your units clumping, which is just silly and unnatural.
I have no idea if it provides better games or a better gameplay experience. Thats why it should be tested and used in some actual games with good players who are willing to try it 
Besides that I mainly agree that the main advantage of formation movement is that it would open the door to make AE much stronger, because people who are unable to constantly anti-clump their units (so low level players) don't get immediately obliterated from 2-3 tanks like they used to before tanks were weakened. Same thing for storm, banelings, etc..
And with stronger AE we will get much better dynamics in holding chokes or ramps with few AE units like templars, tanks etc.. And thats the kind of stuff that makes SC2 interesting.
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it looks better now but it also makes area effect kinda weaker then
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On July 03 2012 22:54 zezamer wrote:Most of SC2 maps are garbage tbh. Even if you would have this cool thing that keeps your units spread it doesn't matter because the maps are so ******** choky that you will have to clump up your units when you wanna move them somewhere. Like do you think this could happen on a normal map ? Of course not because there's 1-2 places on every map where you can have spread like this. One of the main problems with maps is that there isn't that much space which makes unit clumping, forcefields, emps, storms, fungal, colossi etc stupid. On most maps if you want to attack somewhere you need to box your shit, a-move and cross your fingers that you won't get raped by one of those. Look at BW maps, there's so much more space compared to SC2 maps.
the size of areas in sc2 maps are adapted to the size of the balls, if blizz decides to implant this change, i will be very glad to make wider areas
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I get so freaking frustrated of every second post mentioning/whining about how it would make AOE useless and take away all skill because no splitting would be required.
THIS IS NOT THE CASE
The AOE would of course have to be buffed in radius and even damage since there would be a possibility for it with this.
Which in turn would lead to the same amount of splitting being required as you'd have to split away from a larger radius.
Players would have to really focus on keeping their units split and not letting them clump up at all since with new and improved AOE like it should be, a clumped up deathball would melt in seconds like marines in storm.
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EPT
