EPTModified Movement Test - Page 4
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There will obviously be balance shifts when gameplay values are changed. Nobody is claiming otherwise. This thread is about the effect these changes have on the clarity and spectator-friendliness of SC2. | ||
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SevenSeven
Korea (South)37 Posts
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
Btw, this can already be done if you presplit them, and click far away (on the minimap). They will move on a straight line to that far away point almost with the same space inbetween them. The clumping happens much slower. | ||
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one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On July 03 2012 22:12 Tarot wrote: 3:30 in the video makes me sooooo sad that SC2 clumps. It just looks so much better, and tanks don't seem to do that stupid pathing fidgeting thing which makes big ground units lose all sense of weight. Yeah. I second this. Tanks feel like rolling tin cans with a cannon. It would be a way more manly unit if it felt like an actual heavy ass tank. It just feels stupid when a tank is herp derping around behind a force field because it doesn't have the massive unit qualifier. It can be done easily I think because somehow the Thor actually feels heavy and clunky as it should be. I mean, try to stutter step micro a thor and you will have a good laugh  | ||
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Asolmanx
Italy141 Posts
Obviously, if this kind of change will ever happen, it won't be as seen in the video. They won't go all the way to a point where units keep prefectly the formation. What can happen tho, is that they do a minor change to make units keep formation better than they do now. It is an easy change, like the OP metioned, and it has a lot of potential. I don't think it will have huge impact on the game, i actually think that it is going to make it visually better, and also the fights will be a little longer because AoE won't kill AS MANY units as it does now, giving more options for retrear, rearrangement, and other stuff, any making small miscontrol errors less gamechanging. It also is a very low league friendly change, and blizzard loves to help and balance low level players too. In the end it will be just like moving army with the minmap, but you won't have to actually use the minimap to achieve the same result. | ||
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Count9
China10928 Posts
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SwizzY
United States1549 Posts
Yeah, the value changes seem very interesting, but I think expecting Blizzard to rework all of their balance/game mechanics is a bit farfetched. Maybe in HotS, or even LotV, but 100% certain WoL will stay clumpy. :/ | ||
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wcLLg
United States281 Posts
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MavercK
Australia2181 Posts
consider this two players vs'ing each other one has this activated, the other does not. the guys army thats all split up will melt, absolutely melt, in seconds, to the other players standard death ball. it would be the most one sided battle in history. people really seem missguided and aren't explaining their reasons at all. | ||
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CruelZeratul
Germany4588 Posts
On July 03 2012 22:23 Asolmanx wrote: To everybody saying "Blizzard will never implement something like this", I would like to remind you that they actually DID a similar change in a previous patch. Remember air stacking? Muta stacking? They made a little change to make them spread less and keep formation a little better. Obviously, if this kind of change will ever happen, it won't be as seen in the video. They won't go all the way to a point where units keep prefectly the formation. What can happen tho, is that they do a minor change to make units keep formation better than they do now. It is an easy change, like the OP metioned, and it has a lot of potential. I don't think it will have huge impact on the game, i actually think that it is going to make it visually better, and also the fights will be a little longer because AoE won't kill AS MANY units as it does now, giving more options for retrear, rearrangement, and other stuff, any making small miscontrol errors less gamechanging. It also is a very low league friendly change, and blizzard loves to help and balance low level players too. In the end it will be just like moving army with the minmap, but you won't have to actually use the minimap to achieve the same result. They changed that because it didn't work as they wanted it to, i.e. they didn't want to have air stacking, so they removed it. Im pretty sure they want unit clumping though. Who wanted that air change anyway? Just Blizz, not the community. | ||
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skipdog172
United States331 Posts
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wcr.4fun
Belgium686 Posts
On July 03 2012 19:06 papaz wrote: 1. I actually like the death ball 2. Like it or not. Changing it will give Blizzard a balance headache of huge proportions. Suddenly the AoE is kinda worthless. MKP doesn't need to even marinesplit vs banelings. His units won't clump up -> problem solved. This is one of those things that won't change in SC2. what part about increasing aoe don't you understand? according to you lurkers, storm, everything aoe in bw was useless? | ||
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Vrax
Scotland9 Posts
On July 03 2012 22:35 MavercK wrote: one more thing i have to say. consider this two players vs'ing each other one has this activated, the other does not. the guys army thats all split up will melt, absolutely melt, in seconds, to the other players standard death ball. it would be the most one sided battle in history. people really seem missguided and aren't explaining their reasons at all. That's not how this works though, its not an option that a player has control over rather it is built into the map similar to movement speed or damage. | ||
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MavercK
Australia2181 Posts
On July 03 2012 22:42 Vrax wrote: That's not how this works though, its not an option that a player has control over rather it is built into the map similar to movement speed or damage. you missed my point. ergo the army deals alot less damage over a much longer period of time. people saying this removes skill, i dont know how they think that at all. like this would remove the need for splitting to any degree. people had to split in BW and their armies were a hell of alot more seperated than in this video. | ||
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Aeceus
United Kingdom1278 Posts
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
On July 03 2012 22:35 MavercK wrote: one more thing i have to say. consider this two players vs'ing each other one has this activated, the other does not. the guys army thats all split up will melt, absolutely melt, in seconds, to the other players standard death ball. it would be the most one sided battle in history. people really seem missguided and aren't explaining their reasons at all. See, that doesn't really make sense. All this does is allow units to stay in formation without clumping up at their destination into a giant pile of shit. It doesn't make the units move in a congo line unless YOU create the congo line. (Also, what do you mean "activated?" Both players would be using it. If I wanted to make a giant ball then I would click in the center of my unit mass). Now, you said to explain the reasons why one might want this to be implemented. There are several positonal reasons, and a lot more to do with gameflow, but the MAIN reason why I want this pathing change is so that high damage AOE can be implemented. High damage AOE would prevent the situation that you described. The player that has his army clumped up in a ball would have his army "absolutely melt, in seconds" to a disproportionately lower amount of the other player's AOE. It would reward better positioning and at the same time make formations and better concaves easier to maintain (no more fucking clump after every move command). In regards to the AOE I am specifically looking towards HOTS. With the pathing change the lurker could actually be implemented instead of some gay-ass substitute, the tank could be buffed significantly, storm, all sorts of shit (fuck collosi). | ||
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nakedsurfer
Canada500 Posts
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MavercK
Australia2181 Posts
On July 03 2012 22:45 Qwyn wrote: See, that doesn't really make sense. All this does is allow units to stay in formation without clumping up at their destination into a giant pile of shit. It doesn't make the units move in a congo line unless YOU create the congo line. (Also, what do you mean "activated?" Both players would be using it. If I wanted to make a giant ball then I would click in the center of my unit mass). Now, you said to explain the reasons why one might want this to be implemented. There are several positonal reasons, and a lot more to do with gameflow, but the MAIN reason why I want this pathing change is so that high damage AOE can be implemented. High damage AOE would prevent the situation that you described. The player that has his army clumped up in a ball would have his army "absolutely melt, in seconds" to a disproportionately lower amount of the other player's AOE. It would reward better positioning and at the same time make formations and better concaves easier to maintain (no more fucking clump after every move command). In regards to the AOE I am specifically looking towards HOTS. With the pathing change the lurker could actually be implemented instead of some gay-ass substitute, the tank could be buffed significantly, storm, all sorts of shit (fuck collosi). you've also missunderstood me, maybe i worded my post badly, i asked for reasons why they think this removes skill and would be a bad thing. i agree that i want this. the same as you. example being the guy above me, "this would be horrible, removes skill/micro" end of post. HOW EXACTLY? i'd really like to know because im amazed, absolutely amazed at these posts. again. people still had to split in BW and units were way way way way less clumped. | ||
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Big G
Italy835 Posts
Unit pathing is working as intended and it is not a problem by any means. I guess that everything that's different from Brood War is automatically bad, am I right? | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On July 03 2012 22:49 Big G wrote: SC2 units need just a slight increase in collision size to solve a couple of game flaws, i.e readabilty and duration of the fight (which leads to more micro, or at least positioning, anyway). Unit pathing is working as intended and it is not a problem by any means. I guess that everything that's different from Brood War is automatically bad, am I right? The funniest thing is people advocating going back to 16 unit control groups and no MBS. That's just nostalgia-goggles in full effect, right there. I wouldn't mind slightly more space between units in sc2 though, if only to make it slightly more visually appealing. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On July 03 2012 19:05 urashimakt wrote: My immediate thought is that the maintained formation shown in the video would significantly reduced the effectiveness of AoE across the board. It looked like you only needed to spread your army once and as long as you had them all selected and didn't go for Terrain they couldn't fit through, they'd maintain the spread. I feel like that'd alleviate the need for more constant unit micro if you're at a level where that's something you do. What people aren't understanding is that this would open the door for several other changes that, once added, would drastically improve this game. 1) It would reduce the effectiveness of AoE, meaning that Blizzard can (and should, in this situation) increase AoE radius/power. This, in turn, would mean that defender's advantage would become a lot better; Siege Tanks, Banelings, Fungals, Storms, etc. would all be more powerful and would be more capable of holding chokes or fortified positions, which would make the game far more interesting and allow for more harassment/split armies. This would also mean that AoE would destroy deathballs far more easily than they currently do. This will all discourage deathball play. 2) Along with this, there should be a small "personal box" around units that doesn't let them more or less dry hump each other (like you see in most games; you can only let units get so close). Once both of these happen, ranged unit effectiveness will drop and melee unit effectiveness will increase (less ranged units per area of space, more surface area for melee units to attack). This will make the game far more dynamic and discourage deathball play. 3) Overall, this would exponentially increase potential micro, because deathball play would no longer be the most efficient or best way to play. You would see more harassment, more split armies, more positional micro and flanking, etc. etc. etc. This change would only make this game better, both from a gameplay and spectator point of view. | ||
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