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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
On June 22 2012 07:26 andropopp wrote:
so my main point with all of this is terrans keep saying ravens/thors/bc's are these terrible units... well really? what should be done then? should they be buffed?
my argument is no, they shouldnt be buffed other than maybe a small fix like making feedback deal no damage to massive.... but when it comes to buffing spells like HSM I say no that shouldnt be buffed because that would make it better than fungal, bad balance
instead terran as a race should be buffed. It is the problems with the races that causes HSM to suck and fungal to be good,
HSM could be straight up replaced with fungal and and ravens could cost 50 less gas and ravens would still suck and infestors would still be good. theres a problem with the races, not HSM
I think very small buffs to thors/bc's such as taking less damage from feedback is definitely a balance issue, and maybe a small buff to snipe could be in order to bring it to fungals level... but my point is all the terrans out there saying "omg thor/bc/ravens suck so much" should think about what they're saying... because what does that REALLY MEAN? does it mean thors/bc/ravens should receive massive buffs? I say nope... the problem lies somewhere in the race design, not in the units design
I needed to log on at work to reply SPECIFICALLY to this post.....because I think you are completely off of the mark.
1) HSM SHOULD be better than fungal. I don't know why you are arguing that it shouldn't be. 125 energy spell that has a very low chance of hitting with a god awful range SHOULD be good. But it isn't. However, a 75 energy spell from a cheaper caster that can be used instantly after an upgrade should have the worst spell.
2) Problems with Tier 3 terran units amazingly are energy but not in the way that you may think...... it takes too much energy to use anything. You know why Strike cannons isn't researched? It takes forever to have a Thor with that much energy. Similar situation with BC's, energy requirements are just too high to do anything, even after Behemoth Reactor is researched. Also, transition into tier 3 for terran takes a long deal of turtling.....something not seen in the other races.
3) Snipe and fungal have completey different utilities so I don't think they should really be compared.
4) Finally, a lot of people have issues with feedback, but I think feedback is a VERY fair spell. The issue is that Feedback shouldn't be giving to HTs because it gives way too much utility to one unit. Feedback/storm combos seem to allow one unit to directly counter an entire bio army, which feels a little weird to me.
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4713 Posts
On June 22 2012 07:46 SyrZulu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 07:29 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 07:17 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 07:04 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 06:55 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:38 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 06:18 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:16 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. ok theres a few builds like that u can do but what do u do if zerg scouts ur 2ports ? like its like saying hey look zergs builds queens and like to be really greedy, i can build 2factory with reactor after expanding and making 16 hellions before moving out. the hellions are used to kill everything and then u can transition easily into both bio or mech. like seriously its about the same you guys forget PDD blocks queen shots long enough for banshees to kill them. it also blocks spores. Even if Zerg scouts your 2port, what can he do? build more spores?? build more queens? go mutas?? Every scenario, even if he scouts 2port you still force units, force less drones, also PDD blocks spores and queens. Thus if it is unscouted you can effectively PDD at the third base while banshees reign supreme as well as kill off the creep. I believe this is a POSSIBLE solution, not a standard game alternattive. If iS.Pyre, a Terran PRO-gamer says his build works, then i have to believe him because he has obviously been using it to some degree of success. By the time you get that rolling the zerg is either teching to infestors or he already has them out. Yes your PDD will block queen and spore shots, but they won't block fungals. Or by the time that attack hits he Spire is about ready. You also have tunnel vision if you think Muta's aren't the solution to this, while PDDs do block muta attacks, a mass of mutas has so much attack speed that they will deplete that PDD energy in record time, after your raven is dead your banshees are dead. iS.Pyre must have been lucky to run into zergs that had no clue how to defend that, but if zergs see it often enough it won't take long for them to incorporate some easy responses into their play. And by the way, with 6 queens its even easy to defend 3 banshees with 1 PDD, you just transfuse between queens and spore if necessary, your PDD will run out of energy before the queens run out of transfuses. No your wrong. zerg wont have infestors by that time. you dont even know the timing of the build so dont say infestors will be out.You also probobly didnt read that the transition from this is MECH. thats right! Thors beat mutalisks right? yes they get slayed. Oh my god, even better! So you delay your mech upgrades, your mech production and your timings so you can get 3 Banshees and 1 Raven that will do absolutely nothing to the zerg? Oh man if I was the zerg I'd just build 1 extra spore at each base and maybe 1 queen from each hatch while teching as usual and going to the standard anti-mech response of mass roaches and prepping overlord drops. Seriously stop talking about Pyre as if he is some kind of Terran revolutionist, he is just lucky he has yet to meet a zerg to properly scout him and also properly prepare for it. I mean, for crying out loud he is playing on the US server, which everyone agrees is leaps and bounds bellow the EU and Korean servers in terms of quality. he plays on KR too lol stop judging the kid. and if you listened to what i said, PDD blocks spores and queens. Forcing queens and spores IS something believe it or not. even if you do NO damage as in 0, you still kill the creep which is huge in my opinion. iv seen him do the build just now, it WORKS. proofs in the pudding , stop trying to argue that it is a bad build, because it is still largely unexplored. Mech is actually an amazing transition out of the 2port build if i must say so myself. Of course with most pressures you sacrifice some things, but if this 2port build can hold off a roach ling attack in itself, then it wouldnt hinder much tech and production because the zerg hindered his by going for a roach atttack as well. One or two games you saw on his stream are in no way, shape or form conclusive evidence that the build works, it needs to be tested in hundreds of games and against the BEST zergs in the world. Seriously stop desperately trying to defend the build, unless you can consistently defeat zergs like Stephano, Symbol, Nerchio, DRG, NesTea, Losira, Leenock to name only a couple, you can't consider the build viable. I don't care if it worked on someone who is a pro gamer zerg but has actually never made top 16 at an MLG, DH etc. And again, how is the 2 port banshee accomplishing anything? With the extra 2 or 3 queens the zerg makes to defend against it, he will spread that creep faster then you can slow it any more. Do you know what top pro gamer I saw try something similar in Code S? Quantic TheStC, a much more recognized and accomplished player, his opponent NesTea, the result? NesTea rolled over TheStC, the terran didn't even make a dent in the creep spread. Do you seriously thing Pyre is on the same level of TheStC? Or that his adversaries are on the same level of NesTea? Stop kidding yourself. Im just saying that the build CAN be viable. and in my other post i addres the fact that 1 or 2 games does NOT mean the build is super good or anything. I said it has to be explored more before people start attacking it. Pyre 2port sounds interesting to me so i want to hear how it can work and why it works not why it should not even be tested out. And your point about the STC is also countering your own argument as that in itself is also only 1 game but i do understand your point. Nestea is also a much better player than STC so it shouldnt be suprising he lost no matter what build he tried. Nestea is just a stronger player overall.
The line between can be viable and, is flat out not going to work, lies in multitasking and micro, which the true tip top of pro gamers have tons of because of their superb mechanics. That's the difference between a meaningless game on the ladder and a game in the GSL, and that's why I'm telling you that the build is just not viable and will fall flat in an MLG or DH, maybe it will win one or two games because it catches a player of guard once, but that's now how you win series back to back against pro gamers.
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On June 22 2012 07:54 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 07:26 andropopp wrote:
so my main point with all of this is terrans keep saying ravens/thors/bc's are these terrible units... well really? what should be done then? should they be buffed?
my argument is no, they shouldnt be buffed other than maybe a small fix like making feedback deal no damage to massive.... but when it comes to buffing spells like HSM I say no that shouldnt be buffed because that would make it better than fungal, bad balance
instead terran as a race should be buffed. It is the problems with the races that causes HSM to suck and fungal to be good,
HSM could be straight up replaced with fungal and and ravens could cost 50 less gas and ravens would still suck and infestors would still be good. theres a problem with the races, not HSM
I think very small buffs to thors/bc's such as taking less damage from feedback is definitely a balance issue, and maybe a small buff to snipe could be in order to bring it to fungals level... but my point is all the terrans out there saying "omg thor/bc/ravens suck so much" should think about what they're saying... because what does that REALLY MEAN? does it mean thors/bc/ravens should receive massive buffs? I say nope... the problem lies somewhere in the race design, not in the units design
I needed to log on at work to reply SPECIFICALLY to this post.....because I think you are completely off of the mark. 1) HSM SHOULD be better than fungal. I don't know why you are arguing that it shouldn't be. 125 energy spell that has a very low chance of hitting with a god awful range SHOULD be good. But it isn't. However, a 75 energy spell from a cheaper caster that can be used instantly after an upgrade should have the worst spell. 2) Problems with Tier 3 terran units amazingly are energy but not in the way that you may think...... it takes too much energy to use anything. You know why Strike cannons isn't researched? It takes forever to have a Thor with that much energy. Similar situation with BC's, energy requirements are just too high to do anything, even after Behemoth Reactor is researched. Also, transition into tier 3 for terran takes a long deal of turtling.....something not seen in the other races. 3) Snipe and fungal have completey different utilities so I don't think they should really be compared. 4) Finally, a lot of people have issues with feedback, but I think feedback is a VERY fair spell. The issue is that Feedback shouldn't be giving to HTs because it gives way too much utility to one unit. Feedback/storm combos seem to allow one unit to directly counter an entire bio army, which feels a little weird to me.
There's a lot of issues with the Raven.
It's movement speed is medicore at 2.25.
The range of HSM is 6 and it costs 125 energy.
It's an expensive unit 100/200 with 150/150 HSM upgrade and 150/150 energy upgrade. It's a very costly investment, literally 400/500 min/gas to make 1 useable.
For a unit with such a low-range cast, it's almost a guaranteed suicide to try to cast the spell, if it even gets close enough to cast before it dies. At least with the other 2 casters from the other races, they have some range to them so that they may survive.
As for Terran Tier 3, it doesn't quite make sense that Terrans have so many energy units.
Ghost, Raven, Medivac, Banshee, Thor, BC.
Compare
Protoss: Phoenix, HT, Sentry, Mothership
Zerg: Infestor, Queen, Overseer
It makes units like HT a odd soft-counter to so many of Terran's units.
But again the issue at hand is TvZ right now and how Terran High-Tier is seldom used.
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Seriously 2 port banshee is nothing new, and the response from zerg was always queens and spores. It worked when zerg did scout it too late to get the anti air out. In the current meta game with a lot of queens and especially with faster overlords in better positions its more likely that zerg scouts it in time, and he already has the queens. I do not understand how this solves anything especially since the patch. The circumstances for 2 port banshee to work were far better before the patch. And it was not a very good standard build back then. There is quite a lot of shit that can take games of pro players when they play at 50% on ladder. That does not prove anything.
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On June 22 2012 07:29 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 07:17 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 07:04 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 06:55 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:38 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 06:18 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:16 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. ok theres a few builds like that u can do but what do u do if zerg scouts ur 2ports ? like its like saying hey look zergs builds queens and like to be really greedy, i can build 2factory with reactor after expanding and making 16 hellions before moving out. the hellions are used to kill everything and then u can transition easily into both bio or mech. like seriously its about the same you guys forget PDD blocks queen shots long enough for banshees to kill them. it also blocks spores. Even if Zerg scouts your 2port, what can he do? build more spores?? build more queens? go mutas?? Every scenario, even if he scouts 2port you still force units, force less drones, also PDD blocks spores and queens. Thus if it is unscouted you can effectively PDD at the third base while banshees reign supreme as well as kill off the creep. I believe this is a POSSIBLE solution, not a standard game alternattive. If iS.Pyre, a Terran PRO-gamer says his build works, then i have to believe him because he has obviously been using it to some degree of success. By the time you get that rolling the zerg is either teching to infestors or he already has them out. Yes your PDD will block queen and spore shots, but they won't block fungals. Or by the time that attack hits he Spire is about ready. You also have tunnel vision if you think Muta's aren't the solution to this, while PDDs do block muta attacks, a mass of mutas has so much attack speed that they will deplete that PDD energy in record time, after your raven is dead your banshees are dead. iS.Pyre must have been lucky to run into zergs that had no clue how to defend that, but if zergs see it often enough it won't take long for them to incorporate some easy responses into their play. And by the way, with 6 queens its even easy to defend 3 banshees with 1 PDD, you just transfuse between queens and spore if necessary, your PDD will run out of energy before the queens run out of transfuses. No your wrong. zerg wont have infestors by that time. you dont even know the timing of the build so dont say infestors will be out.You also probobly didnt read that the transition from this is MECH. thats right! Thors beat mutalisks right? yes they get slayed. Oh my god, even better! So you delay your mech upgrades, your mech production and your timings so you can get 3 Banshees and 1 Raven that will do absolutely nothing to the zerg? Oh man if I was the zerg I'd just build 1 extra spore at each base and maybe 1 queen from each hatch while teching as usual and going to the standard anti-mech response of mass roaches and prepping overlord drops. Seriously stop talking about Pyre as if he is some kind of Terran revolutionist, he is just lucky he has yet to meet a zerg to properly scout him and also properly prepare for it. I mean, for crying out loud he is playing on the US server, which everyone agrees is leaps and bounds bellow the EU and Korean servers in terms of quality. he plays on KR too lol stop judging the kid. and if you listened to what i said, PDD blocks spores and queens. Forcing queens and spores IS something believe it or not. even if you do NO damage as in 0, you still kill the creep which is huge in my opinion. iv seen him do the build just now, it WORKS. proofs in the pudding , stop trying to argue that it is a bad build, because it is still largely unexplored. Mech is actually an amazing transition out of the 2port build if i must say so myself. Of course with most pressures you sacrifice some things, but if this 2port build can hold off a roach ling attack in itself, then it wouldnt hinder much tech and production because the zerg hindered his by going for a roach atttack as well. One or two games you saw on his stream are in no way, shape or form conclusive evidence that the build works, it needs to be tested in hundreds of games and against the BEST zergs in the world. Seriously stop desperately trying to defend the build, unless you can consistently defeat zergs like Stephano, Symbol, Nerchio, DRG, NesTea, Losira, Leenock to name only a couple, you can't consider the build viable. I don't care if it worked on someone who is a pro gamer zerg but has actually never made top 16 at an MLG, DH etc. And again, how is the 2 port banshee accomplishing anything? With the extra 2 or 3 queens the zerg makes to defend against it, he will spread that creep faster then you can slow it any more. Do you know what top pro gamer I saw try something similar in Code S? Quantic TheStC, a much more recognized and accomplished player, his opponent NesTea, the result? NesTea rolled over TheStC, the terran didn't even make a dent in the creep spread. Do you seriously thing Pyre is on the same level of TheStC? Or that his adversaries are on the same level of NesTea? Stop kidding yourself.
From memory, didn't STC have a good looking opening, following it up with a strong looking mid game push but then got caught in the open with unsieged tanks and lost everything to lings. That's not a 'build' issue, it's a failure to execute hitting the siege button or knowing where nestea's army was.
The raven and banshees did a good job of dealing with creep and picking off lone queens. The marine tank army was looking very strong until mass lings just over-ran it on a move command...
On June 22 2012 08:12 submarine wrote:
Seriously 2 port banshee is nothing new, and the response from zerg was always queens and spores. It worked when zerg did scout it too late to get the anti air out. In the current meta game with a lot of queens and especially with faster overlords in better positions its more likely that zerg scouts it in time, and he already has the queens. I do not understand how this solves anything especially since the patch. The circumstances for 2 port banshee to work were far better before the patch. And it was not a very good standard build back then. There is quite a lot of shit that can take games of pro players when they play at 50% on ladder. That does not prove anything.
Wasn't 2 port banshee an aggressive opening, almost all in designed to do damage or win, where raven banshee is meant to keep creep at bay and pick off vulnerable queens while preparing for a marine tank banshee push?
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Queen is to stronk! )))
Just increase the creep tumour cooldown and it will fix the problem with creep denying and the whole map creeped at 13min
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On June 22 2012 08:15 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 07:29 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 07:17 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 07:04 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 06:55 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:38 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 06:18 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:16 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. ok theres a few builds like that u can do but what do u do if zerg scouts ur 2ports ? like its like saying hey look zergs builds queens and like to be really greedy, i can build 2factory with reactor after expanding and making 16 hellions before moving out. the hellions are used to kill everything and then u can transition easily into both bio or mech. like seriously its about the same you guys forget PDD blocks queen shots long enough for banshees to kill them. it also blocks spores. Even if Zerg scouts your 2port, what can he do? build more spores?? build more queens? go mutas?? Every scenario, even if he scouts 2port you still force units, force less drones, also PDD blocks spores and queens. Thus if it is unscouted you can effectively PDD at the third base while banshees reign supreme as well as kill off the creep. I believe this is a POSSIBLE solution, not a standard game alternattive. If iS.Pyre, a Terran PRO-gamer says his build works, then i have to believe him because he has obviously been using it to some degree of success. By the time you get that rolling the zerg is either teching to infestors or he already has them out. Yes your PDD will block queen and spore shots, but they won't block fungals. Or by the time that attack hits he Spire is about ready. You also have tunnel vision if you think Muta's aren't the solution to this, while PDDs do block muta attacks, a mass of mutas has so much attack speed that they will deplete that PDD energy in record time, after your raven is dead your banshees are dead. iS.Pyre must have been lucky to run into zergs that had no clue how to defend that, but if zergs see it often enough it won't take long for them to incorporate some easy responses into their play. And by the way, with 6 queens its even easy to defend 3 banshees with 1 PDD, you just transfuse between queens and spore if necessary, your PDD will run out of energy before the queens run out of transfuses. No your wrong. zerg wont have infestors by that time. you dont even know the timing of the build so dont say infestors will be out.You also probobly didnt read that the transition from this is MECH. thats right! Thors beat mutalisks right? yes they get slayed. Oh my god, even better! So you delay your mech upgrades, your mech production and your timings so you can get 3 Banshees and 1 Raven that will do absolutely nothing to the zerg? Oh man if I was the zerg I'd just build 1 extra spore at each base and maybe 1 queen from each hatch while teching as usual and going to the standard anti-mech response of mass roaches and prepping overlord drops. Seriously stop talking about Pyre as if he is some kind of Terran revolutionist, he is just lucky he has yet to meet a zerg to properly scout him and also properly prepare for it. I mean, for crying out loud he is playing on the US server, which everyone agrees is leaps and bounds bellow the EU and Korean servers in terms of quality. he plays on KR too lol stop judging the kid. and if you listened to what i said, PDD blocks spores and queens. Forcing queens and spores IS something believe it or not. even if you do NO damage as in 0, you still kill the creep which is huge in my opinion. iv seen him do the build just now, it WORKS. proofs in the pudding , stop trying to argue that it is a bad build, because it is still largely unexplored. Mech is actually an amazing transition out of the 2port build if i must say so myself. Of course with most pressures you sacrifice some things, but if this 2port build can hold off a roach ling attack in itself, then it wouldnt hinder much tech and production because the zerg hindered his by going for a roach atttack as well. One or two games you saw on his stream are in no way, shape or form conclusive evidence that the build works, it needs to be tested in hundreds of games and against the BEST zergs in the world. Seriously stop desperately trying to defend the build, unless you can consistently defeat zergs like Stephano, Symbol, Nerchio, DRG, NesTea, Losira, Leenock to name only a couple, you can't consider the build viable. I don't care if it worked on someone who is a pro gamer zerg but has actually never made top 16 at an MLG, DH etc. And again, how is the 2 port banshee accomplishing anything? With the extra 2 or 3 queens the zerg makes to defend against it, he will spread that creep faster then you can slow it any more. Do you know what top pro gamer I saw try something similar in Code S? Quantic TheStC, a much more recognized and accomplished player, his opponent NesTea, the result? NesTea rolled over TheStC, the terran didn't even make a dent in the creep spread. Do you seriously thing Pyre is on the same level of TheStC? Or that his adversaries are on the same level of NesTea? Stop kidding yourself. From memory, didn't STC have a good looking opening, following it up with a strong looking mid game push but then got caught in the open with unsieged tanks and lost everything to lings. That's not a 'build' issue, it's a failure to execute hitting the siege button or knowing where nestea's army was. The raven and banshees did a good job of dealing with creep and picking off lone queens. The marine tank army was looking very strong until mass lings just over-ran it on a move command... Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 08:12 submarine wrote:
Seriously 2 port banshee is nothing new, and the response from zerg was always queens and spores. It worked when zerg did scout it too late to get the anti air out. In the current meta game with a lot of queens and especially with faster overlords in better positions its more likely that zerg scouts it in time, and he already has the queens. I do not understand how this solves anything especially since the patch. The circumstances for 2 port banshee to work were far better before the patch. And it was not a very good standard build back then. There is quite a lot of shit that can take games of pro players when they play at 50% on ladder. That does not prove anything. Wasn't 2 port banshee an aggressive opening, almost all in designed to do damage or win, where raven banshee is meant to keep creep at bay and pick off vulnerable queens while preparing for a marine tank banshee push?
this isnt an all in version we are talking about
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On June 22 2012 07:54 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 07:26 andropopp wrote:
so my main point with all of this is terrans keep saying ravens/thors/bc's are these terrible units... well really? what should be done then? should they be buffed?
my argument is no, they shouldnt be buffed other than maybe a small fix like making feedback deal no damage to massive.... but when it comes to buffing spells like HSM I say no that shouldnt be buffed because that would make it better than fungal, bad balance
instead terran as a race should be buffed. It is the problems with the races that causes HSM to suck and fungal to be good,
HSM could be straight up replaced with fungal and and ravens could cost 50 less gas and ravens would still suck and infestors would still be good. theres a problem with the races, not HSM
I think very small buffs to thors/bc's such as taking less damage from feedback is definitely a balance issue, and maybe a small buff to snipe could be in order to bring it to fungals level... but my point is all the terrans out there saying "omg thor/bc/ravens suck so much" should think about what they're saying... because what does that REALLY MEAN? does it mean thors/bc/ravens should receive massive buffs? I say nope... the problem lies somewhere in the race design, not in the units design
I needed to log on at work to reply SPECIFICALLY to this post.....because I think you are completely off of the mark. 1) HSM SHOULD be better than fungal. I don't know why you are arguing that it shouldn't be. 125 energy spell that has a very low chance of hitting with a god awful range SHOULD be good. But it isn't. However, a 75 energy spell from a cheaper caster that can be used instantly after an upgrade should have the worst spell. 2) Problems with Tier 3 terran units amazingly are energy but not in the way that you may think...... it takes too much energy to use anything. You know why Strike cannons isn't researched? It takes forever to have a Thor with that much energy. Similar situation with BC's, energy requirements are just too high to do anything, even after Behemoth Reactor is researched. Also, transition into tier 3 for terran takes a long deal of turtling.....something not seen in the other races. 3) Snipe and fungal have completey different utilities so I don't think they should really be compared. 4) Finally, a lot of people have issues with feedback, but I think feedback is a VERY fair spell. The issue is that Feedback shouldn't be giving to HTs because it gives way too much utility to one unit. Feedback/storm combos seem to allow one unit to directly counter an entire bio army, which feels a little weird to me.
So true. Feedback should be on twilight/dark archons when LotV hits.
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I fail to see the difference. With such a huge invest you have to do damage. Just a few tumors wont cut it. Investing 550/500 into 3 banshees and a raven to get less done then 4 hellions seem to be a very bad idea. If massing queens is the counter to two port banshee all in, I cant see how 2 port banshee pressure is any good against mass queen.
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United Kingdom38256 Posts
TvZ is practically impossible vs an opponent on the same level as you unless they are making massive blunders. Queens fend almost anything off for 0 larva and minerals only, and ferrarilords make scouting anything unusual easy. Tech builds especially get scouted for free. Then you get to transition into a midgame on a creep covered map against a much better economy where you flail around impotently trying to perform micro heroics to avoid being assigned certain death by fungal, before getting crushed by Hive tech unless your opponent suicides armies and you somehow can keep up with the tech switching and remaxes long enough to grind them down.
11/11 or marauder hellion all in from now on for me I think until someone comes up with a solid new build that doesn't leave you flat out behind barring luck.
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This thread is for the lol
Mostly I'm reminiscing back to the Fruitdealer days 
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On June 22 2012 06:52 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:43 Holophonist wrote:On June 22 2012 06:34 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 22 2012 06:23 Holophonist wrote:On June 22 2012 06:17 bLo0d wrote:On June 22 2012 06:07 Holophonist wrote:On June 22 2012 05:58 scypio wrote:On June 22 2012 05:47 Holophonist wrote:
I didn't say when you clean up creep. I'm merely saying that if there's too much creep to attack, don't attack. clean up the creep and go home. I see so many (and play so many) zvts where terrans still TRY to be aggressive, and then cry when it doesn't work. It's not SUPPOSED to work anymore, that was the point of the buff.
Go home and do what exactly? Buld a couple of thors? Two BCs? Or maybe a bunch of ravens? It is official statement from Blizzard: T has to do early/mid game damage to have a shot at the lategame. And clearing out a couple of tumors will not do the trick. This kind of discussion really isn't helpful at all. The things you have to do to win this game (particularly the later in the game we're talking about), really can't be written out well enough to fully describe the situation. I'm not going to sit here and theory craft with you, as that really doesn't get anybody anywhere. Who would've thought that roaches (even roach drops for heavens sake!) could be a viable counter to stargate play in zvp. You don't think it's feasible to get 3 CC's, start 1/1, get medivacs out and begin to apply pressure using bio? Your first push may get crushed, at the expense of a considerable amount of gas, but bio play on 3 bases can be sustained for a LONG time, giving you a ton of time to trade cost efficiently and while expanding behind it. The point: have some humility and please realize that it may take more than a month for terran to come up with a new playstyle. Do you think it was good for the game to have hellions just plainly parked outside of the zerg natural, denying all creep/ling scouts until speed was done or until you got mutas out? That wasn't good for the game either. Game was perfectly fine before the patch. The period before speedlings, roaches, or mutas were out to push back hellions was Terran's period of map control. After hellions are gone, Zerg has map control with muta and can drone up their third while denying the third of terran. Terrans rarely left their base except possibly with a few drops until they stabilized defenses from muta. On both ends, hellion control and muta control rewarded the player with extended periods of map control. As is, unit control is almost nonexistant in the early game, no amount of hellion control would break through 4 queens, while zerg just has to transfuse. Not only is it broken, it also is very boring. The micro dynamic of the early - mid game with hellions and muta harrass is gone. Also going mutas gave Terran a chance to do damage before a full Hive tech tree was completed. As is, Hive tech at 15 minutes is just the standard and Terran aren't given any time to breathe. With mutas, Zerg had to do some damage to terran and keep him contained long enough to make the mutas worth it, which the best players were able to do. It was a back and forth of defensive vs offensive play. Now, all the burden is on terran all the time. Zerg just deflects attacks as it takes an uninterrupted tech path to Ultra/Brood infestor. ding larva. I understand the point about mutas rewarding the better play moreso than the current metagame does. And I agree that tvz was fine before the patch, for the most part. Long tvz's were often by far the best examples of what sc2 has to offer. The ones that WEREN'T entertaining or impressive were the early wins like marauder hellion, cloak banshee (not so much anymore), etc. And the point of the patch is to get rid of those games. The only question is "can terrans figure out a way to play the matchup that doesn't incorporate as much early aggression/cheese?" If they can't, hopefully blizz will change something to fix that. My point is that we're not at the point yet where we know whether or not they're capable of figuring that out. There's a big difference between giving Zerg tools to hold all ins, and making them immune to early pressure. Zergs were already dealing with Terran aggression pre-patch. Zergs like DRG could slap away any attempt at early pressure while droning safely and his ability to do that was what got him the label as the best Zerg in the world. Now? Any Zerg can do it thanks to the Queens. The beautiful skill that was displayed by DRG in his ability to play as greedy as possible and still survive is completely pointless now. DRG could do it BECAUSE he was the best zerg in the world. And I still think you're missing the point. MAYBE "early pressure" should be looked at differently. Maybe what timing attack you would do before should now just be meant to clean up creep and produce units, rather than trying to deny a third/kill them/whatever. The point is, WE DON'T KNOW YET. Stop being stubborn, nearly 50% win rate in TvZ indicates that the way it used to be was the way it was supposed to be. Simple game mechanics, zerg doesn't have many micro options, but they have strong macro options. Zerg units individually are weak but they scale well in numbers and are cheep. Zerg has larva and injects, this allows them to build lots of units quickly to overcome their individual weakness. Because of injects the zerg can get a huge economy advantage over both protoss or terrans if left alone. To keep the zerg economy in check, terrans did certain timings to force more units instead of drones, spines, slow down the expansions and deny creep. If those objectives can't be fulfilled zergs just explode out of control. What you are seeing now is the situation spiral out of control because terran late game is shit, and even if it wasn't, the zerg will still have a huge bank because he has maxed out faster then the terran. You say timings should be to "deny" creep spread and make units? The zerg will just laugh in your face, he will just send his queens back out to put down tumors on area you just cleared or, if it gets to the mid game, he'll just intercept your army and kill it on creep. You can fight to deny his creep all day while he is more then happy to sit back at home, get 3/3, infestors and then his preferred tech choose of either Ultralisks or Brood Lords, which by the way work great with those 6 queens that he kept alive and used in the early and mid game to spread creep. Do you really not realize how absurd you sound? Do you really not see how full of holes your argument really is?
Please, stop insulting me and start reading what I say, ok? a 50% winrate says nothing about how the matchup is played. They didn't like how many tvz's ended in some random terran all-in, which is the point of the buff. It's downright moronic to just say a 50% winrate = a completely balanced matchup. So they gave the queen a buff to try and reduce the amount of games like that. If terrans continue to struggle, you'll get your buff/zerg nerf. But 1 month is NOT enough time to say definitively that you need it.
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I don't think I've seen a single terran win against a streaming zerg in a week now LOL
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On June 22 2012 09:22 Sroobz wrote:
I don't think I've seen a single terran win against a streaming zerg in a week now LOL
Well according to D.Browder, TVZ is compeltely balanced right now, and there is also nothing wrong with the buff.
Shows that he doesn't have a clue what hes talking about.
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On June 22 2012 09:16 Holophonist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:52 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 06:43 Holophonist wrote:On June 22 2012 06:34 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 22 2012 06:23 Holophonist wrote:On June 22 2012 06:17 bLo0d wrote:On June 22 2012 06:07 Holophonist wrote:On June 22 2012 05:58 scypio wrote:On June 22 2012 05:47 Holophonist wrote:
I didn't say when you clean up creep. I'm merely saying that if there's too much creep to attack, don't attack. clean up the creep and go home. I see so many (and play so many) zvts where terrans still TRY to be aggressive, and then cry when it doesn't work. It's not SUPPOSED to work anymore, that was the point of the buff.
Go home and do what exactly? Buld a couple of thors? Two BCs? Or maybe a bunch of ravens? It is official statement from Blizzard: T has to do early/mid game damage to have a shot at the lategame. And clearing out a couple of tumors will not do the trick. This kind of discussion really isn't helpful at all. The things you have to do to win this game (particularly the later in the game we're talking about), really can't be written out well enough to fully describe the situation. I'm not going to sit here and theory craft with you, as that really doesn't get anybody anywhere. Who would've thought that roaches (even roach drops for heavens sake!) could be a viable counter to stargate play in zvp. You don't think it's feasible to get 3 CC's, start 1/1, get medivacs out and begin to apply pressure using bio? Your first push may get crushed, at the expense of a considerable amount of gas, but bio play on 3 bases can be sustained for a LONG time, giving you a ton of time to trade cost efficiently and while expanding behind it. The point: have some humility and please realize that it may take more than a month for terran to come up with a new playstyle. Do you think it was good for the game to have hellions just plainly parked outside of the zerg natural, denying all creep/ling scouts until speed was done or until you got mutas out? That wasn't good for the game either. Game was perfectly fine before the patch. The period before speedlings, roaches, or mutas were out to push back hellions was Terran's period of map control. After hellions are gone, Zerg has map control with muta and can drone up their third while denying the third of terran. Terrans rarely left their base except possibly with a few drops until they stabilized defenses from muta. On both ends, hellion control and muta control rewarded the player with extended periods of map control. As is, unit control is almost nonexistant in the early game, no amount of hellion control would break through 4 queens, while zerg just has to transfuse. Not only is it broken, it also is very boring. The micro dynamic of the early - mid game with hellions and muta harrass is gone. Also going mutas gave Terran a chance to do damage before a full Hive tech tree was completed. As is, Hive tech at 15 minutes is just the standard and Terran aren't given any time to breathe. With mutas, Zerg had to do some damage to terran and keep him contained long enough to make the mutas worth it, which the best players were able to do. It was a back and forth of defensive vs offensive play. Now, all the burden is on terran all the time. Zerg just deflects attacks as it takes an uninterrupted tech path to Ultra/Brood infestor. ding larva. I understand the point about mutas rewarding the better play moreso than the current metagame does. And I agree that tvz was fine before the patch, for the most part. Long tvz's were often by far the best examples of what sc2 has to offer. The ones that WEREN'T entertaining or impressive were the early wins like marauder hellion, cloak banshee (not so much anymore), etc. And the point of the patch is to get rid of those games. The only question is "can terrans figure out a way to play the matchup that doesn't incorporate as much early aggression/cheese?" If they can't, hopefully blizz will change something to fix that. My point is that we're not at the point yet where we know whether or not they're capable of figuring that out. There's a big difference between giving Zerg tools to hold all ins, and making them immune to early pressure. Zergs were already dealing with Terran aggression pre-patch. Zergs like DRG could slap away any attempt at early pressure while droning safely and his ability to do that was what got him the label as the best Zerg in the world. Now? Any Zerg can do it thanks to the Queens. The beautiful skill that was displayed by DRG in his ability to play as greedy as possible and still survive is completely pointless now. DRG could do it BECAUSE he was the best zerg in the world. And I still think you're missing the point. MAYBE "early pressure" should be looked at differently. Maybe what timing attack you would do before should now just be meant to clean up creep and produce units, rather than trying to deny a third/kill them/whatever. The point is, WE DON'T KNOW YET. Stop being stubborn, nearly 50% win rate in TvZ indicates that the way it used to be was the way it was supposed to be. Simple game mechanics, zerg doesn't have many micro options, but they have strong macro options. Zerg units individually are weak but they scale well in numbers and are cheep. Zerg has larva and injects, this allows them to build lots of units quickly to overcome their individual weakness. Because of injects the zerg can get a huge economy advantage over both protoss or terrans if left alone. To keep the zerg economy in check, terrans did certain timings to force more units instead of drones, spines, slow down the expansions and deny creep. If those objectives can't be fulfilled zergs just explode out of control. What you are seeing now is the situation spiral out of control because terran late game is shit, and even if it wasn't, the zerg will still have a huge bank because he has maxed out faster then the terran. You say timings should be to "deny" creep spread and make units? The zerg will just laugh in your face, he will just send his queens back out to put down tumors on area you just cleared or, if it gets to the mid game, he'll just intercept your army and kill it on creep. You can fight to deny his creep all day while he is more then happy to sit back at home, get 3/3, infestors and then his preferred tech choose of either Ultralisks or Brood Lords, which by the way work great with those 6 queens that he kept alive and used in the early and mid game to spread creep. Do you really not realize how absurd you sound? Do you really not see how full of holes your argument really is? Please, stop insulting me and start reading what I say, ok? a 50% winrate says nothing about how the matchup is played. They didn't like how many tvz's ended in some random terran all-in, which is the point of the buff. It's downright moronic to just say a 50% winrate = a completely balanced matchup. So they gave the queen a buff to try and reduce the amount of games like that. If terrans continue to struggle, you'll get your buff/zerg nerf. But 1 month is NOT enough time to say definitively that you need it.
You still don't get it (more likely you feign not getting it)
What you are saying is before the patch the matchup was balanced but bad. You can't honestly think that. I refuse to think someone can be biased to the point of honestly thinking that. I don't remember seeing a lot of terran allins before the patch. But I see a lot more of terran allins since the patch. The matchup is better ? Oh yeah you think it is, because now you can defend them 99% of the time. I now understand what your definition of a good matchup is.
It's obvious you're not in this thread for anything else that provoking people. All your posts are uninformed at best, dishonest at worst.
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It's not the queen buff. The infestor is to versatile. It can burrow, stop invisible units, chain units to one spot(along with it being aoe and dmg over time), and infested terran being really good(better than marines) all for energy. I remember reading where blizz said they might take out infested terran which would a good direction for hots. Getting rid of chain fungals would be the best though.
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On June 22 2012 09:27 VPVanek wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 09:22 Sroobz wrote:
I don't think I've seen a single terran win against a streaming zerg in a week now LOL Well according to D.Browder, TVZ is compeltely balanced right now, and there is also nothing wrong with the buff. Shows that he doesn't have a clue what hes talking about.
Nah in a foreigner society bad terran winrate is considered balanced. Since there is only a few high pros that foster the ability to use Terran it's only likely that Protoss and Zerg represent majority and get the changes they need at the cost of the minority.
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I don't know if I can put in anything useful that isn't already said on this thread but... if Tech Reactors(from the campaign) can be made on rax/fact/ports once a Fusion Core has been put down, would it help fix Terran late game?
EDIT: Existing Reactors and Tech labs can also be able to change into Tech Reactors as well.
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On June 22 2012 09:39 NAPoleonSC wrote:
I don't know if I can put in anything useful that isn't already said on this thread but... if Tech Reactors(from the campaign) can be made on rax/fact/ports once a Fusion Core has been put down, would it help fix Terran late game?
EDIT: Existing Reactors and Tech labs can also be able to change into Tech Reactors as well.
Sure it would help, but it's not about replacing the units it's about the amount of units you can field, and the quality of those fielded units against what you are fighting.
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On June 22 2012 09:27 VPVanek wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 09:22 Sroobz wrote:
I don't think I've seen a single terran win against a streaming zerg in a week now LOL Well according to D.Browder, TVZ is compeltely balanced right now, and there is also nothing wrong with the buff. Shows that he doesn't have a clue what hes talking about.
Or maybe it shows that you have no idea what you are talking about -_-;;
1) Try listening to their interviews again. That's not really how they phrase it, at all.
2) You know, even though they aren't perfect, I am still gonna trust Blizzards stats more over some guy posting about what he as one person has seen on streams recently :/
Also I like all these posts trying to explain balance from what a unit cost vs what it can do. This would almost make sense if the races were incredibly similar in their fundamentals and their macro, but they are not, at all.
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EPT
