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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 22 2012 06:25 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. It just takes ages and a shitload of gas : 1 factory = 100 2 Starport = 200 gas, 2 techlab = 50 gas, 3 banshees = 300 gas, one raven = 200 gas. Now that's about 2 minutes to have your 3 banshees and Raven, supposing you don't run out of gas in the process. You need about 850 gas just to "move out" and try to adress à 600 minerals thingy, not even counting the time to build all of this... ? I'm not even counting the minerals, but you won't have more than a handful of unupgraded marines, or you'll have to wait more, and pull out a 35 supply worth army, versus a zerg that will be at Lair tech on 4 bases ? Even in the case the zerg can't manage to scout this, he can handle it just when seeing it coming thanks to creep. Oh and you don't have any raven upgrades, which means hardly a pdd or 2 turrets.
Its called 1rax FE into 3 gas. you Will have the gas support. Also, the zerg metagame is to effectively stay passive while obtaining a third so they can go into the lategame. That is what the discussion is about. so you do not NEED marines or much at all besides 1 bunker to defend zerg. Thus 2port can be viable.
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On June 22 2012 06:25 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. It just takes ages and a shitload of gas : 1 factory = 100 2 Starport = 200 gas, 2 techlab = 50 gas, 3 banshees = 300 gas, one raven = 200 gas. Now that's about 2 minutes to have your 3 banshees and Raven, supposing you don't run out of gas in the process. You need about 850 gas just to "move out" and try to adress à 600 minerals thingy, not even counting the time to build all of this... ? I'm not even counting the minerals, but you won't have more than a handful of unupgraded marines, or you'll have to wait more, and pull out a 35 supply worth army, versus a zerg that will be at Lair tech on 4 bases ? Even in the case the zerg can't manage to scout this, he can handle it just when seeing it coming thanks to creep. Oh and you don't have any raven upgrades, which means hardly a pdd or 2 turrets.
u can win with it but its semi allin obv. but i guess fine all terrans are coinflippin now basically so why not
i think its awful but he says he wins with it
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On June 22 2012 06:27 SyrZulu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:25 Ragnarork wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. It just takes ages and a shitload of gas : 1 factory = 100 2 Starport = 200 gas, 2 techlab = 50 gas, 3 banshees = 300 gas, one raven = 200 gas. Now that's about 2 minutes to have your 3 banshees and Raven, supposing you don't run out of gas in the process. You need about 850 gas just to "move out" and try to adress à 600 minerals thingy, not even counting the time to build all of this... ? I'm not even counting the minerals, but you won't have more than a handful of unupgraded marines, or you'll have to wait more, and pull out a 35 supply worth army, versus a zerg that will be at Lair tech on 4 bases ? Even in the case the zerg can't manage to scout this, he can handle it just when seeing it coming thanks to creep. Oh and you don't have any raven upgrades, which means hardly a pdd or 2 turrets. Its called 1rax FE into 3 gas. you Will have the gas support. Also, the zerg metagame is to effectively stay passive while obtaining a third so they can go into the lategame. That is what the discussion is about. so you do not NEED marines or much at all besides 1 bunker to defend zerg. Thus 2port can be viable.
It's the same as tossing a coin in the air. You hope for no mutas, and that's a wrong approach to the game imo.
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On June 22 2012 06:27 SyrZulu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:25 Ragnarork wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. It just takes ages and a shitload of gas : 1 factory = 100 2 Starport = 200 gas, 2 techlab = 50 gas, 3 banshees = 300 gas, one raven = 200 gas. Now that's about 2 minutes to have your 3 banshees and Raven, supposing you don't run out of gas in the process. You need about 850 gas just to "move out" and try to adress à 600 minerals thingy, not even counting the time to build all of this... ? I'm not even counting the minerals, but you won't have more than a handful of unupgraded marines, or you'll have to wait more, and pull out a 35 supply worth army, versus a zerg that will be at Lair tech on 4 bases ? Even in the case the zerg can't manage to scout this, he can handle it just when seeing it coming thanks to creep. Oh and you don't have any raven upgrades, which means hardly a pdd or 2 turrets. Its called 1rax FE into 3 gas. you Will have the gas support. Also, the zerg metagame is to effectively stay passive while obtaining a third so they can go into the lategame. That is what the discussion is about. so you do not NEED marines or much at all besides 1 bunker to defend zerg. Thus 2port can be viable.
You're missing the bigger picture here.
A build like that one, with such a heavy gas requirement completely puts a stop on all early upgrades for your midgame unit composition for the sole purpose of dealing damage to the Zerg economy early.
Even if it works, (and there's a good chance it won't) you're still not walking into the mid or late game with an advantage over your opponent because you spent so much gas on your opening and thereby delayed your tech for the midgame.
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On June 22 2012 06:23 Holophonist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:17 bLo0d wrote:On June 22 2012 06:07 Holophonist wrote:On June 22 2012 05:58 scypio wrote:On June 22 2012 05:47 Holophonist wrote:
I didn't say when you clean up creep. I'm merely saying that if there's too much creep to attack, don't attack. clean up the creep and go home. I see so many (and play so many) zvts where terrans still TRY to be aggressive, and then cry when it doesn't work. It's not SUPPOSED to work anymore, that was the point of the buff.
Go home and do what exactly? Buld a couple of thors? Two BCs? Or maybe a bunch of ravens? It is official statement from Blizzard: T has to do early/mid game damage to have a shot at the lategame. And clearing out a couple of tumors will not do the trick. This kind of discussion really isn't helpful at all. The things you have to do to win this game (particularly the later in the game we're talking about), really can't be written out well enough to fully describe the situation. I'm not going to sit here and theory craft with you, as that really doesn't get anybody anywhere. Who would've thought that roaches (even roach drops for heavens sake!) could be a viable counter to stargate play in zvp. You don't think it's feasible to get 3 CC's, start 1/1, get medivacs out and begin to apply pressure using bio? Your first push may get crushed, at the expense of a considerable amount of gas, but bio play on 3 bases can be sustained for a LONG time, giving you a ton of time to trade cost efficiently and while expanding behind it. The point: have some humility and please realize that it may take more than a month for terran to come up with a new playstyle. Do you think it was good for the game to have hellions just plainly parked outside of the zerg natural, denying all creep/ling scouts until speed was done or until you got mutas out? That wasn't good for the game either. Game was perfectly fine before the patch. The period before speedlings, roaches, or mutas were out to push back hellions was Terran's period of map control. After hellions are gone, Zerg has map control with muta and can drone up their third while denying the third of terran. Terrans rarely left their base except possibly with a few drops until they stabilized defenses from muta. On both ends, hellion control and muta control rewarded the player with extended periods of map control. As is, unit control is almost nonexistant in the early game, no amount of hellion control would break through 4 queens, while zerg just has to transfuse. Not only is it broken, it also is very boring. The micro dynamic of the early - mid game with hellions and muta harrass is gone. Also going mutas gave Terran a chance to do damage before a full Hive tech tree was completed. As is, Hive tech at 15 minutes is just the standard and Terran aren't given any time to breathe. With mutas, Zerg had to do some damage to terran and keep him contained long enough to make the mutas worth it, which the best players were able to do. It was a back and forth of defensive vs offensive play. Now, all the burden is on terran all the time. Zerg just deflects attacks as it takes an uninterrupted tech path to Ultra/Brood infestor. ding larva. I understand the point about mutas rewarding the better play moreso than the current metagame does. And I agree that tvz was fine before the patch, for the most part. Long tvz's were often by far the best examples of what sc2 has to offer. The ones that WEREN'T entertaining or impressive were the early wins like marauder hellion, cloak banshee (not so much anymore), etc. And the point of the patch is to get rid of those games. The only question is "can terrans figure out a way to play the matchup that doesn't incorporate as much early aggression/cheese?" If they can't, hopefully blizz will change something to fix that. My point is that we're not at the point yet where we know whether or not they're capable of figuring that out.
All terran all ins can be held, and Terran all ins, or any race's all ins for that matter, can win vs any race. Also it is not fair to just eliminate early aggression or cheese. Every race can do that, to single out TvZ as a matchup where it just shouldn't happen seems a little extreme. The point of the patch was also most likely not to totally eliminate early aggression/cheese. Also, there are only two sides of the coin. Either Terran can do damage with early aggression/cheese that Zerg, like any other race, has the potential to hold and get ahead if succesful at doing so, or Zerg has total map control which Terran cannot do anything about. Zerg is the race that benefits the most from being untouched, with creep spread and larva, that giving them a free pass to it is obviously unfair.
On a sidenote, unless you are Zerg biased, watching all ins ( and not just succesful Terran all ins) is actually quite entertaining for me, it is definitely a matter of opinion. The question is always whether or not the all in is broken, not how entertaining it is ( they definitely aren't boring, I'm sure you get a kick out of Zergs succesfully going crazy all ins), and cloak banshee or marhell all ins are definitely not. The solution as always is just to scout, which is made easier for Zerg now with overlord speed buff.
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On June 22 2012 05:54 Holophonist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:47 SupLilSon wrote:
There is no consensus because there is such a large portion of people here dominated by the worst chain of thought ever. People think that since Terran was strong in the past, they should be weak now. A number of people know how bad the change has made things but still don't see anything wrong.. Balance isn't vengeance lol.. Not sure if you're gearing any of that towards me, but it's not what I was getting at. I'm not saying that terran deserves to lose now, what I'm saying is, I'm ok with them playing from behind. It should be cyclical with races/strategies being dominant for a while before a sufficient counter/counter playstyle is devised until the game is "totally" balanced.
No, none of that was directed at you or anyone in particular. Just a prevalent mindset that the game being skewed in Terran's favor for a year means they should get screwed for a year. The eye for an eye mentality doesn't mesh with balance design, that's it. And I agree, the metagame should be cyclical, just like in nature, the interactions between species is called an "evolutionary arms race" and that is how RTS game's metagame tends to run out. One race develops a strong strategy and then over time another race develops a way to counter, etc. BUT, Blizzard is essentially playing God every month and trying to taylor the balance by nerfing Terran over and over instead of actually letting any "evolution" in the gameplay occur.
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On June 22 2012 06:16 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. That still doesn't solve the core problem. This "do damage early or die in the late game" is something that is inherently imbalanced. It justifies Terrans having proportionately strong early and mid game timings yet at the same time is a complete justification for Terran tier 3 being next to useless in TvZ and TvP. The changes that have been made to Protoss and Zerg over the last few patches have all addressed their issues of reaching the late game, now it's much safer and easier for them to reach their late game units they build towards all game. Meanwhile Terrans reach their peak combat effectiveness in the mid game. Ravens, Battlecruisers and Thors are just not anywhere near as useful as what the other races have available at the same tech level. Terrans can't build towards a superior army composition in the late game, because their midgame army composition of heavy bio, or heavy bio with siege tanks is the most effective army composition Terrans can field.
i disagree with you on terrans having a weak lategame. I think thats an illusion created by the other weaknesses of terran, such as the weakness of not being able to play a greedy nr 15 style safely.
I think ravens, BC's, and thors ARE strong but the reason they seem weak is because in order for terran to get them on the same level of zerg they need to play "greedy NR 15 style" which is extremely weak to any zerg aggression
while zergs essentially are able to play that style safely and destroy
what makes TvZ seem so horrible right now is terran is forced to focus on their midgame strength much more intensely just to survive, while the zerg can get to their endgame faster while sacrificing midgame strength for more economy and still being safe from all-ins. Terran cannot do that.
Plus most terrans are also sacrificing economy early trying to deal with creep early game or to pressure early game, making the terran even weaker lategame because he sacrificed economy early. This is not the terrans fault really he just feels he has to do something to stop that creep.
I think the true terran lategame can actually kill zergs lategame or at least contest with it equally. Terran just has no safe greedy economic way to get there, but zerg does.
I believe if a terran and a zerg both said "NR 15" and did greedy builds and took 3 fast bases (thats about how long it takes to get 3 bases with lots of lategame tech thrown in plus required lategame production, 15mins. zerg will have a fourth but it wont be too operational at that point) the terran could be on an even footing as the zerg and compete with the zerg lategame even if he let the zerg put creep on the entire map by 15 minutes.
But that is a unrealistic scenario. In real games the terran needs to make alot of midgame strength to not die to all-in's, while the zerg can pump pure economy realistically and always be safe from anything. and the midgame strength the terran does create has realistically zero ability to pressure the zerg effectively and even trying to pressure the zerg with that army is usually suicide the zerg produces just enough to roll you over and now your super behind in economy
Yeah we saw MKP beat stephano with early pressure but DRG destroyed the same early pressure. It really looked to me like stephano made huge mistakes that game, MKP made almost no blunders while stephano was slower than he could be. If the zerg makes big mistakes and the terran makes no mistakes, terran can win. But the terran cant force the zerg to do like that, its the zerg thats beating himself, not the terran thats beating the zerg. The terran can only play perfectly and make zero mistakes and hope the zerg messes up and if the zerg doesnt mess up its gg.
think about this terran lategame army
6 BC 36
6 thor 36
6 raven 12
3ghosts 6
4tank 12
19 vikings 38
3 planetary fortresses at each expansion to defend ling runbys
thats 140food. terran can hang with 60scv's lategame thanks to 2 orbitals/ mules (while the rest of the CC's would be used to put 3 planetarys at each expansion)
i think you would be hard pressed to find a 140food zerg army that trades nicely with that army as long as you make sure to spread the vikings to avoid fungals.
while using that army the trick is you would want to keep your tanks out of siegemode if your enemy has too much broodlords or ultras, but use siegemode if the enemy has tons of lings/roaches and low amounts of broodlords. Broodlords counter siegemode too hard, but tanks for 3food (while being super expensive for 3food) are actually strong out of siegemode but have the option of using it to counter mass ling/baneling
in battle your micro focus is to spread your whole army before the battle very well to avoid fungal/ultralisk splash as best as you can. Remember to keep your ravens and ghosts slightly behind your army protecting them from getting NP'ed. At the start of the battle quickly launch 6 yamatos on the ultralisks or broods then fly in your ravens and launch 6 HSM's on the corrupters. During the period of you using yamato/HSM the zerg is likely spamming fungal at this point. Then run in your ghosts and spam snipe on infestors (to counter NP. NP would be very strong against thors but 3ghosts should deal with it since snipe has a longrange to spam snipe on those infestors). During the hectic battle considering the ravens fly in to launch missiles seconds after the battle starts, this should hopefully greatly reduce the chance of the zerg getting off a successful NP on a raven due to the fact that the zerg is likely trying to micro off and score multiple good fungals during this time as each good fungal can do 200+ damage per click (as much as yamato)
then after the corrupters/broodlords are dead, land your vikings and clean up the rest
I really dont think theres a 140food zerg army in the unit tester that you could find that fights that terran lategame army well. im assuming the perfect zerg lategame army has both ultras and broodlords with infestors and corrupters and whatever else
problem is in a real game the zerg proceedes to remax in 20 seconds with several extra 200food roach armies then the terran gets rolled over
anyway long story short if terran HAD A WAY to safely get their lategame that wasnt suicide and low economy compared to the zerg, they could be good
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On June 22 2012 06:26 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:17 Holophonist wrote:On June 22 2012 06:15 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 02:55 LgN.EijZrA wrote:
Explain to me in vivid detail how queen range changed the MU other than the opening.
Can anyone please comment on this? Queen doesnt cost larvae. Queen defend all early game aggression. Thus every zerg has more drones in the midgame and in turn a bigger economy and army size. queens shouldnt be able to defend EVERYTHING without drawback. He said "vivid detail" for a reason. As in, the queen buff didn't change banshee play, it didn't change mass hellion play. The only thing it directly affected being able to repel small numbers of hellions (4 - 6) to start your creep a minute or 2 earlier.. No. Zerg had to make units before. Hellions delayed creep, used larva, sometimes gas, forced spines. Now queens do all that and more. The zerg economy progresses nearly exponentially, the few larvas used, the few lings produced, the few spines created made that both races entered midgame in equal footing. The race that handled that period better gained a small advantage. A small advantage, for either zerg or terran, but an advantage that could be overcame by the player who played better the midgame. And the player who played a better midgame entered lategame with a small advantage. Now zerg always, always enter mid game with a massive advantage. So massive that most zergs just skip midgame and goes from droning to their final late game composition without needing anything in between to survive. Everyone can witness that, to not see that is not being biased, it's being blind ffs. If you don't see that the previous delicate balance was destroyed by that ability to drone more, creep more, defend more, with less...well, I don't know what more can be said to you.
I was with you until the second paragraph. If you play passively and get a quick third, zerg won't enter the mid game with a "massive advantage." You can argue that it's an advantage, but if you don't do any 2 base timing, it won't be a massive advantage. And, like I've said a million times, until terrans play like that consistently, you can't for sure say what the outcome would be.
Do you guys not understand how metagame works? You don't know what piece of the puzzle you're missing until you've discovered it...
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On June 22 2012 06:23 Holophonist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:17 bLo0d wrote:On June 22 2012 06:07 Holophonist wrote:On June 22 2012 05:58 scypio wrote:On June 22 2012 05:47 Holophonist wrote:
I didn't say when you clean up creep. I'm merely saying that if there's too much creep to attack, don't attack. clean up the creep and go home. I see so many (and play so many) zvts where terrans still TRY to be aggressive, and then cry when it doesn't work. It's not SUPPOSED to work anymore, that was the point of the buff.
Go home and do what exactly? Buld a couple of thors? Two BCs? Or maybe a bunch of ravens? It is official statement from Blizzard: T has to do early/mid game damage to have a shot at the lategame. And clearing out a couple of tumors will not do the trick. This kind of discussion really isn't helpful at all. The things you have to do to win this game (particularly the later in the game we're talking about), really can't be written out well enough to fully describe the situation. I'm not going to sit here and theory craft with you, as that really doesn't get anybody anywhere. Who would've thought that roaches (even roach drops for heavens sake!) could be a viable counter to stargate play in zvp. You don't think it's feasible to get 3 CC's, start 1/1, get medivacs out and begin to apply pressure using bio? Your first push may get crushed, at the expense of a considerable amount of gas, but bio play on 3 bases can be sustained for a LONG time, giving you a ton of time to trade cost efficiently and while expanding behind it. The point: have some humility and please realize that it may take more than a month for terran to come up with a new playstyle. Do you think it was good for the game to have hellions just plainly parked outside of the zerg natural, denying all creep/ling scouts until speed was done or until you got mutas out? That wasn't good for the game either. Game was perfectly fine before the patch. The period before speedlings, roaches, or mutas were out to push back hellions was Terran's period of map control. After hellions are gone, Zerg has map control with muta and can drone up their third while denying the third of terran. Terrans rarely left their base except possibly with a few drops until they stabilized defenses from muta. On both ends, hellion control and muta control rewarded the player with extended periods of map control. As is, unit control is almost nonexistant in the early game, no amount of hellion control would break through 4 queens, while zerg just has to transfuse. Not only is it broken, it also is very boring. The micro dynamic of the early - mid game with hellions and muta harrass is gone. Also going mutas gave Terran a chance to do damage before a full Hive tech tree was completed. As is, Hive tech at 15 minutes is just the standard and Terran aren't given any time to breathe. With mutas, Zerg had to do some damage to terran and keep him contained long enough to make the mutas worth it, which the best players were able to do. It was a back and forth of defensive vs offensive play. Now, all the burden is on terran all the time. Zerg just deflects attacks as it takes an uninterrupted tech path to Ultra/Brood infestor. ding larva. I understand the point about mutas rewarding the better play moreso than the current metagame does. And I agree that tvz was fine before the patch, for the most part. Long tvz's were often by far the best examples of what sc2 has to offer. The ones that WEREN'T entertaining or impressive were the early wins like marauder hellion, cloak banshee (not so much anymore), etc. And the point of the patch is to get rid of those games. The only question is "can terrans figure out a way to play the matchup that doesn't incorporate as much early aggression/cheese?" If they can't, hopefully blizz will change something to fix that. My point is that we're not at the point yet where we know whether or not they're capable of figuring that out.
There's a big difference between giving Zerg tools to hold all ins, and making them immune to early pressure.
Zergs were already dealing with Terran aggression pre-patch. Zergs like DRG could slap away any attempt at early pressure while droning safely and his ability to do that was what got him the label as the best Zerg in the world.
Now? Any Zerg can do it thanks to the Queens. The beautiful skill that was displayed by DRG in his ability to play as greedy as possible and still survive is completely pointless now.
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On June 22 2012 06:34 Vindicare605 wrote:
Now? Any Zerg can do it thanks to the Queens. The beautiful skill that was displayed by DRG in his ability to play as greedy as possible and still survive is completely pointless now.
Ryung put it pretty well. Random NA zergs feel like playing against Stephano now with their newfound skill. I don't understand why Blizzard makes zerg even easier to play when you could defend hellions previously, and it actually required effort and skill to do it.
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4713 Posts
On June 22 2012 06:18 SyrZulu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:16 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. ok theres a few builds like that u can do but what do u do if zerg scouts ur 2ports ? like its like saying hey look zergs builds queens and like to be really greedy, i can build 2factory with reactor after expanding and making 16 hellions before moving out. the hellions are used to kill everything and then u can transition easily into both bio or mech. like seriously its about the same you guys forget PDD blocks queen shots long enough for banshees to kill them. it also blocks spores. Even if Zerg scouts your 2port, what can he do? build more spores?? build more queens? go mutas?? Every scenario, even if he scouts 2port you still force units, force less drones, also PDD blocks spores and queens. Thus if it is unscouted you can effectively PDD at the third base while banshees reign supreme as well as kill off the creep. I believe this is a POSSIBLE solution, not a standard game alternattive. If iS.Pyre, a Terran PRO-gamer says his build works, then i have to believe him because he has obviously been using it to some degree of success.
By the time you get that rolling the zerg is either teching to infestors or he already has them out. Yes your PDD will block queen and spore shots, but they won't block fungals. Or by the time that attack hits he Spire is about ready.
You also have tunnel vision if you think Muta's aren't the solution to this, while PDDs do block muta attacks, a mass of mutas has so much attack speed that they will deplete that PDD energy in record time, after your raven is dead your banshees are dead. iS.Pyre must have been lucky to run into zergs that had no clue how to defend that, but if zergs see it often enough it won't take long for them to incorporate some easy responses into their play.
And by the way, with 6 queens its even easy to defend 3 banshees with 1 PDD, you just transfuse between queens and spore if necessary, your PDD will run out of energy before the queens run out of transfuses.
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On June 22 2012 03:24 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 02:47 RavenLoud wrote:On June 22 2012 02:35 ragz_gt wrote:On June 22 2012 02:29 RavenLoud wrote:
Why don't we make a custom map with with 3 larvas per inject instead of 4? Test things out a bit instead of complaining. Blizzard won't hear you here anyway. That would make PvZ REALLY imba... basically there is no way to survive a 2 base push. Changes to BL/Festor, which both Z and P have problem with, and P's counter to (archon toilet) is just too gimmicky make some sense on the surface. Though my personal pref is revert the Ghost nerf. I think the queen buff is a very sensible counter to mass ghost strategy, and make ZvZ much more enjoyable, but it should come in place of Ghost nerf rather than after it. Yeah you're right. I honestly think snipe was overnerfed. It can't even kill a zergling nor a baneling now (and there was a challenge in Blizzard's Masters map that used snipe against them..lol). We should try changing snipe to 35 (50 vs. psionic). I think Terran need 1 unit that can handle both Ultra and BL reasonably well. Currently when Terran commit to one, Zerg just switch to the other and complete overruns Terran. If ghost at least not embarrass themselves against Ultra composition, it would be very viable. Same with Thor (or BC), but problem there is more of a mobility than anything else.
I agree. 35 dmg for snipe seems to be the best thing I can think of, maybe with a minor Raven buff.
With 35, it takes 7 snipes for a BL and 15 for an Ultra, not too unreasonable.
On June 22 2012 04:20 ragz_gt wrote:
One thing I'd think would work and more enjoyable is make 250mm range 10 and hit air. This way Thor become a very viable counter to BL/Festor and can be backbone to Terran army late game.
This also create a fun battle for TvP, as it would one shot Colo but very weak against Templar (as is right now), might be able to bring some Mech back into TvP.
I'm afraid this won't fly. Blizzard intended thors to be weak to armored air (Void rays, carriers), if you give them 10 range strike cannon that hits air then it becomes a total counter to carriers.
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On June 22 2012 06:34 andropopp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:16 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. That still doesn't solve the core problem. This "do damage early or die in the late game" is something that is inherently imbalanced. It justifies Terrans having proportionately strong early and mid game timings yet at the same time is a complete justification for Terran tier 3 being next to useless in TvZ and TvP. The changes that have been made to Protoss and Zerg over the last few patches have all addressed their issues of reaching the late game, now it's much safer and easier for them to reach their late game units they build towards all game. Meanwhile Terrans reach their peak combat effectiveness in the mid game. Ravens, Battlecruisers and Thors are just not anywhere near as useful as what the other races have available at the same tech level. Terrans can't build towards a superior army composition in the late game, because their midgame army composition of heavy bio, or heavy bio with siege tanks is the most effective army composition Terrans can field. i disagree with you on terrans having a weak lategame. I think thats an illusion created by the other weaknesses of terran, such as the weakness of not being able to play a greedy nr 15 style safely. I think ravens, BC's, and thors ARE strong but the reason they seem weak is because in order for terran to get them on the same level of zerg they need to play "greedy NR 15 style" which is extremely weak to any zerg aggression while zergs essentially are able to play that style safely and destroy what makes TvZ seem so horrible right now is terran is forced to focus on their midgame strength much more intensely just to survive, while the zerg can get to their endgame faster while sacrificing midgame strength for more economy and still being safe from all-ins. Terran cannot do that. Plus most terrans are also sacrificing economy early trying to deal with creep early game or to pressure early game, making the terran even weaker lategame because he sacrificed economy early. This is not the terrans fault really he just feels he has to do something to stop that creep. I think the true terran lategame can actually kill zergs lategame or at least contest with it equally. Terran just has no safe greedy economic way to get there, but zerg does. I believe if a terran and a zerg both said "NR 15" and did greedy builds and took 3 fast bases (thats about how long it takes to get 3 bases with lots of lategame tech thrown in plus required lategame production, 15mins. zerg will have a fourth but it wont be too operational at that point) the terran could be on an even footing as the zerg and compete with the zerg lategame even if he let the zerg put creep on the entire map by 15 minutes. But that is a unrealistic scenario. In real games the terran needs to make alot of midgame strength to not die to all-in's, while the zerg can pump pure economy realistically and always be safe from anything. and the midgame strength the terran does create has realistically zero ability to pressure the zerg effectively and even trying to pressure the zerg with that army is usually suicide the zerg produces just enough to roll you over and now your super behind in economy Yeah we saw MKP beat stephano with early pressure but DRG destroyed the same early pressure. It really looked to me like stephano made huge mistakes that game, MKP made almost no blunders while stephano was slower than he could be. If the zerg makes big mistakes and the terran makes no mistakes, terran can win. But the terran cant force the zerg to do like that, its the zerg thats beating himself, not the terran thats beating the zerg. The terran can only play perfectly and make zero mistakes and hope the zerg messes up and if the zerg doesnt mess up its gg. think about this terran lategame army 6 BC 36 6 thor 36 6 raven 12 3ghosts 6 4tank 12 19 vikings 38 3 planetary fortresses at each expansion to defend ling runbys thats 140food. terran can hang with 60scv's lategame thanks to 2 orbitals/ mules (while the rest of the CC's would be used to put 3 planetarys at each expansion) i think you would be hard pressed to find a 140food zerg army that trades nicely with that army as long as you make sure to spread the vikings to avoid fungals. while using that army the trick is you would want to keep your tanks out of siegemode if your enemy has too much broodlords or ultras, but use siegemode if the enemy has tons of lings/roaches and low amounts of broodlords. Broodlords counter siegemode too hard, but tanks for 3food (while being super expensive for 3food) are actually strong out of siegemode but have the option of using it to counter mass ling/baneling in battle your micro focus is to spread your whole army before the battle very well to avoid fungal/ultralisk splash as best as you can. Remember to keep your ravens and ghosts slightly behind your army protecting them from getting NP'ed. At the start of the battle quickly launch 6 yamatos on the ultralisks or broods then fly in your ravens and launch 6 HSM's on the corrupters. During the period of you using yamato/HSM the zerg is likely spamming fungal at this point. Then run in your ghosts and spam snipe on infestors (to counter NP. NP would be very strong against thors but 3ghosts should deal with it since snipe has a longrange to spam snipe on those infestors). During the hectic battle considering the ravens fly in to launch missiles seconds after the battle starts, this should hopefully greatly reduce the chance of the zerg getting off a successful NP on a raven due to the fact that the zerg is likely trying to micro off and score multiple good fungals during this time as each good fungal can do 200+ damage per click (as much as yamato) then after the corrupters/broodlords are dead, land your vikings and clean up the rest I really dont think theres a 140food zerg army in the unit tester that you could find that fights that terran lategame army well. im assuming the perfect zerg lategame army has both ultras and broodlords with infestors and corrupters and whatever else problem is in a real game the zerg proceedes to remax in 20 seconds with several extra 200food roach armies then the terran gets rolled over anyway long story short if terran HAD A WAY to safely get their lategame that wasnt suicide and low economy compared to the zerg, they could be good
Dude you're theorycrafting so hard right now you've completely forgotten how Terran production works.
Zerg and Protoss late game are both great because they complement their midgame army composition. You make Collosus out of the Robotics Facility and everything else you need comes from Warp Gates, and everything from Warp Gates can be reinforced quickly. Everything shares upgrades from the Forge.
Everything Zerg makes, from the lowliest Zergling to the mighty Ultralisk comes from larvae. The time it takes for Zergs to tech, is the amount of time it takes for them to be able to mass produce any unit they want.
Terran late game however, comes from Factories and Starports and a majority of the units you listed in there requires tech labs which means only a single unit can be produced from it at a time. Each of those factories or starports costs 100 gas, each tech lab costs another 25. Keep in mind that unlike Protoss, Terrans cannot chronoboost Thors the way Protoss can Chronoboost Collosus. Keep in mind that reactors do not help in making Thors, Battlecruisers, Ghosts, Siege Tanks, Banshees or Ravens.
The amount of time and resources it takes to max out on an army composition like the one you're proposing is completely unrealistic compared to what it would cost the other races to do the same, and what's more is that they don't need to since their late game units mesh well with the units they're already using from the previous tiers.
Broodlings share upgrades with Zerglings and Ultralisks, Collosus share upgrades with Archons and Zealots. Battlecruisers Thors and Ghosts all require a separate set of upgrades.
Do you see how far'fetched the playstyle you're talking about is yet?
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On June 22 2012 06:39 RavenLoud wrote:
I'm afraid this won't fly. Blizzard intended thors to be weak to armored air (Void rays, carriers), if you give them 10 range strike cannon that hits air then it becomes a total counter to carriers.
Ah yes. I forgot how many builds rely on lategame carriers these days.
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On June 22 2012 06:34 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:23 Holophonist wrote:On June 22 2012 06:17 bLo0d wrote:On June 22 2012 06:07 Holophonist wrote:On June 22 2012 05:58 scypio wrote:On June 22 2012 05:47 Holophonist wrote:
I didn't say when you clean up creep. I'm merely saying that if there's too much creep to attack, don't attack. clean up the creep and go home. I see so many (and play so many) zvts where terrans still TRY to be aggressive, and then cry when it doesn't work. It's not SUPPOSED to work anymore, that was the point of the buff.
Go home and do what exactly? Buld a couple of thors? Two BCs? Or maybe a bunch of ravens? It is official statement from Blizzard: T has to do early/mid game damage to have a shot at the lategame. And clearing out a couple of tumors will not do the trick. This kind of discussion really isn't helpful at all. The things you have to do to win this game (particularly the later in the game we're talking about), really can't be written out well enough to fully describe the situation. I'm not going to sit here and theory craft with you, as that really doesn't get anybody anywhere. Who would've thought that roaches (even roach drops for heavens sake!) could be a viable counter to stargate play in zvp. You don't think it's feasible to get 3 CC's, start 1/1, get medivacs out and begin to apply pressure using bio? Your first push may get crushed, at the expense of a considerable amount of gas, but bio play on 3 bases can be sustained for a LONG time, giving you a ton of time to trade cost efficiently and while expanding behind it. The point: have some humility and please realize that it may take more than a month for terran to come up with a new playstyle. Do you think it was good for the game to have hellions just plainly parked outside of the zerg natural, denying all creep/ling scouts until speed was done or until you got mutas out? That wasn't good for the game either. Game was perfectly fine before the patch. The period before speedlings, roaches, or mutas were out to push back hellions was Terran's period of map control. After hellions are gone, Zerg has map control with muta and can drone up their third while denying the third of terran. Terrans rarely left their base except possibly with a few drops until they stabilized defenses from muta. On both ends, hellion control and muta control rewarded the player with extended periods of map control. As is, unit control is almost nonexistant in the early game, no amount of hellion control would break through 4 queens, while zerg just has to transfuse. Not only is it broken, it also is very boring. The micro dynamic of the early - mid game with hellions and muta harrass is gone. Also going mutas gave Terran a chance to do damage before a full Hive tech tree was completed. As is, Hive tech at 15 minutes is just the standard and Terran aren't given any time to breathe. With mutas, Zerg had to do some damage to terran and keep him contained long enough to make the mutas worth it, which the best players were able to do. It was a back and forth of defensive vs offensive play. Now, all the burden is on terran all the time. Zerg just deflects attacks as it takes an uninterrupted tech path to Ultra/Brood infestor. ding larva. I understand the point about mutas rewarding the better play moreso than the current metagame does. And I agree that tvz was fine before the patch, for the most part. Long tvz's were often by far the best examples of what sc2 has to offer. The ones that WEREN'T entertaining or impressive were the early wins like marauder hellion, cloak banshee (not so much anymore), etc. And the point of the patch is to get rid of those games. The only question is "can terrans figure out a way to play the matchup that doesn't incorporate as much early aggression/cheese?" If they can't, hopefully blizz will change something to fix that. My point is that we're not at the point yet where we know whether or not they're capable of figuring that out. There's a big difference between giving Zerg tools to hold all ins, and making them immune to early pressure. Zergs were already dealing with Terran aggression pre-patch. Zergs like DRG could slap away any attempt at early pressure while droning safely and his ability to do that was what got him the label as the best Zerg in the world. Now? Any Zerg can do it thanks to the Queens. The beautiful skill that was displayed by DRG in his ability to play as greedy as possible and still survive is completely pointless now.
DRG could do it BECAUSE he was the best zerg in the world.
And I still think you're missing the point. MAYBE "early pressure" should be looked at differently. Maybe what timing attack you would do before should now just be meant to clean up creep and produce units, rather than trying to deny a third/kill them/whatever. The point is, WE DON'T KNOW YET.
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On June 22 2012 06:40 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:34 andropopp wrote:On June 22 2012 06:16 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. That still doesn't solve the core problem. This "do damage early or die in the late game" is something that is inherently imbalanced. It justifies Terrans having proportionately strong early and mid game timings yet at the same time is a complete justification for Terran tier 3 being next to useless in TvZ and TvP. The changes that have been made to Protoss and Zerg over the last few patches have all addressed their issues of reaching the late game, now it's much safer and easier for them to reach their late game units they build towards all game. Meanwhile Terrans reach their peak combat effectiveness in the mid game. Ravens, Battlecruisers and Thors are just not anywhere near as useful as what the other races have available at the same tech level. Terrans can't build towards a superior army composition in the late game, because their midgame army composition of heavy bio, or heavy bio with siege tanks is the most effective army composition Terrans can field. i disagree with you on terrans having a weak lategame. I think thats an illusion created by the other weaknesses of terran, such as the weakness of not being able to play a greedy nr 15 style safely. I think ravens, BC's, and thors ARE strong but the reason they seem weak is because in order for terran to get them on the same level of zerg they need to play "greedy NR 15 style" which is extremely weak to any zerg aggression while zergs essentially are able to play that style safely and destroy what makes TvZ seem so horrible right now is terran is forced to focus on their midgame strength much more intensely just to survive, while the zerg can get to their endgame faster while sacrificing midgame strength for more economy and still being safe from all-ins. Terran cannot do that. Plus most terrans are also sacrificing economy early trying to deal with creep early game or to pressure early game, making the terran even weaker lategame because he sacrificed economy early. This is not the terrans fault really he just feels he has to do something to stop that creep. I think the true terran lategame can actually kill zergs lategame or at least contest with it equally. Terran just has no safe greedy economic way to get there, but zerg does. I believe if a terran and a zerg both said "NR 15" and did greedy builds and took 3 fast bases (thats about how long it takes to get 3 bases with lots of lategame tech thrown in plus required lategame production, 15mins. zerg will have a fourth but it wont be too operational at that point) the terran could be on an even footing as the zerg and compete with the zerg lategame even if he let the zerg put creep on the entire map by 15 minutes. But that is a unrealistic scenario. In real games the terran needs to make alot of midgame strength to not die to all-in's, while the zerg can pump pure economy realistically and always be safe from anything. and the midgame strength the terran does create has realistically zero ability to pressure the zerg effectively and even trying to pressure the zerg with that army is usually suicide the zerg produces just enough to roll you over and now your super behind in economy Yeah we saw MKP beat stephano with early pressure but DRG destroyed the same early pressure. It really looked to me like stephano made huge mistakes that game, MKP made almost no blunders while stephano was slower than he could be. If the zerg makes big mistakes and the terran makes no mistakes, terran can win. But the terran cant force the zerg to do like that, its the zerg thats beating himself, not the terran thats beating the zerg. The terran can only play perfectly and make zero mistakes and hope the zerg messes up and if the zerg doesnt mess up its gg. think about this terran lategame army 6 BC 36 6 thor 36 6 raven 12 3ghosts 6 4tank 12 19 vikings 38 3 planetary fortresses at each expansion to defend ling runbys thats 140food. terran can hang with 60scv's lategame thanks to 2 orbitals/ mules (while the rest of the CC's would be used to put 3 planetarys at each expansion) i think you would be hard pressed to find a 140food zerg army that trades nicely with that army as long as you make sure to spread the vikings to avoid fungals. while using that army the trick is you would want to keep your tanks out of siegemode if your enemy has too much broodlords or ultras, but use siegemode if the enemy has tons of lings/roaches and low amounts of broodlords. Broodlords counter siegemode too hard, but tanks for 3food (while being super expensive for 3food) are actually strong out of siegemode but have the option of using it to counter mass ling/baneling in battle your micro focus is to spread your whole army before the battle very well to avoid fungal/ultralisk splash as best as you can. Remember to keep your ravens and ghosts slightly behind your army protecting them from getting NP'ed. At the start of the battle quickly launch 6 yamatos on the ultralisks or broods then fly in your ravens and launch 6 HSM's on the corrupters. During the period of you using yamato/HSM the zerg is likely spamming fungal at this point. Then run in your ghosts and spam snipe on infestors (to counter NP. NP would be very strong against thors but 3ghosts should deal with it since snipe has a longrange to spam snipe on those infestors). During the hectic battle considering the ravens fly in to launch missiles seconds after the battle starts, this should hopefully greatly reduce the chance of the zerg getting off a successful NP on a raven due to the fact that the zerg is likely trying to micro off and score multiple good fungals during this time as each good fungal can do 200+ damage per click (as much as yamato) then after the corrupters/broodlords are dead, land your vikings and clean up the rest I really dont think theres a 140food zerg army in the unit tester that you could find that fights that terran lategame army well. im assuming the perfect zerg lategame army has both ultras and broodlords with infestors and corrupters and whatever else problem is in a real game the zerg proceedes to remax in 20 seconds with several extra 200food roach armies then the terran gets rolled over anyway long story short if terran HAD A WAY to safely get their lategame that wasnt suicide and low economy compared to the zerg, they could be good Dude you're theorycrafting so hard right now you've completely forgotten how Terran production works. Zerg and Protoss late game are both great because they complement their midgame army composition. You make Collosus out of the Robotics Facility and everything else you need comes from Warp Gates, and everything from Warp Gates can be reinforced quickly. Everything shares upgrades from the Forge. Everything Zerg makes, from the lowliest Zergling to the mighty Ultralisk comes from larvae. The time it takes for Zergs to tech, is the amount of time it takes for them to be able to mass produce any unit they want. Terran late game however, comes from Factories and Starports and a majority of the units you listed in there requires tech labs which means only a single unit can be produced from it at a time. Each of those factories or starports costs 100 gas, each tech lab costs another 25.
are you disagree'ing with me or agree'ing with me
everything you said is 100% EXACTLY what i was trying to say. THATS MY POINT, the terran is FORCED to not be able to play a "greedy NR 15 style" and he cannot actually get super lategame tech and economy while skipping midgame, but the zerg can
my point was that, HYPOTHETICALLY, if the zerg and terran both said "nr 15" then the terran could enter the endgame at an equal level of the zerg because he can just skip barracks/bio completely and go for pure endgame and mech/air upgrades and zero bio upgrades
but the game is not like that. the terran cannot play a "nr 15" style because he would get obliterated by any light aggression the zerg felt like doing
The amount of time and resources it takes to max out on an army composition like the one you're proposing is completely unrealistic compared to what it would cost the other races to do the same, and what's more is that they don't need to since their late game units mesh well with the units they're already using from the previous tiers.
Broodlings share upgrades with Zerglings and Ultralisks, Collosus share upgrades with Archons and Zealots. Battlecruisers Thors and Ghosts all require a separate set of upgrades.
Do you see how far'fetched the playstyle you're talking about is yet?
again.. are you agree'ing with me or disagree'ing with me? I cant even tell
what you just said IS EXACTLY MY POINT
my point if you even read that post was that only in a hypothetical scenario where both players say "alright NR 15" can the terran actually enter the lategame on an even footing with the zerg. other than that terran is forced to sacrifice economy and build up low-tech while the zerg is maxing pure economy and getting their high-tech goodies
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On June 22 2012 06:41 GuitarBizarre wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:39 RavenLoud wrote:
I'm afraid this won't fly. Blizzard intended thors to be weak to armored air (Void rays, carriers), if you give them 10 range strike cannon that hits air then it becomes a total counter to carriers.
Ah yes. I forgot how many builds rely on lategame carriers these days.
Lol touche.
I guess that speaks more for the fact that carriers sucks and that nobody goes mech in TvP.
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On June 22 2012 06:43 Holophonist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:34 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 22 2012 06:23 Holophonist wrote:On June 22 2012 06:17 bLo0d wrote:On June 22 2012 06:07 Holophonist wrote:On June 22 2012 05:58 scypio wrote:On June 22 2012 05:47 Holophonist wrote:
I didn't say when you clean up creep. I'm merely saying that if there's too much creep to attack, don't attack. clean up the creep and go home. I see so many (and play so many) zvts where terrans still TRY to be aggressive, and then cry when it doesn't work. It's not SUPPOSED to work anymore, that was the point of the buff.
Go home and do what exactly? Buld a couple of thors? Two BCs? Or maybe a bunch of ravens? It is official statement from Blizzard: T has to do early/mid game damage to have a shot at the lategame. And clearing out a couple of tumors will not do the trick. This kind of discussion really isn't helpful at all. The things you have to do to win this game (particularly the later in the game we're talking about), really can't be written out well enough to fully describe the situation. I'm not going to sit here and theory craft with you, as that really doesn't get anybody anywhere. Who would've thought that roaches (even roach drops for heavens sake!) could be a viable counter to stargate play in zvp. You don't think it's feasible to get 3 CC's, start 1/1, get medivacs out and begin to apply pressure using bio? Your first push may get crushed, at the expense of a considerable amount of gas, but bio play on 3 bases can be sustained for a LONG time, giving you a ton of time to trade cost efficiently and while expanding behind it. The point: have some humility and please realize that it may take more than a month for terran to come up with a new playstyle. Do you think it was good for the game to have hellions just plainly parked outside of the zerg natural, denying all creep/ling scouts until speed was done or until you got mutas out? That wasn't good for the game either. Game was perfectly fine before the patch. The period before speedlings, roaches, or mutas were out to push back hellions was Terran's period of map control. After hellions are gone, Zerg has map control with muta and can drone up their third while denying the third of terran. Terrans rarely left their base except possibly with a few drops until they stabilized defenses from muta. On both ends, hellion control and muta control rewarded the player with extended periods of map control. As is, unit control is almost nonexistant in the early game, no amount of hellion control would break through 4 queens, while zerg just has to transfuse. Not only is it broken, it also is very boring. The micro dynamic of the early - mid game with hellions and muta harrass is gone. Also going mutas gave Terran a chance to do damage before a full Hive tech tree was completed. As is, Hive tech at 15 minutes is just the standard and Terran aren't given any time to breathe. With mutas, Zerg had to do some damage to terran and keep him contained long enough to make the mutas worth it, which the best players were able to do. It was a back and forth of defensive vs offensive play. Now, all the burden is on terran all the time. Zerg just deflects attacks as it takes an uninterrupted tech path to Ultra/Brood infestor. ding larva. I understand the point about mutas rewarding the better play moreso than the current metagame does. And I agree that tvz was fine before the patch, for the most part. Long tvz's were often by far the best examples of what sc2 has to offer. The ones that WEREN'T entertaining or impressive were the early wins like marauder hellion, cloak banshee (not so much anymore), etc. And the point of the patch is to get rid of those games. The only question is "can terrans figure out a way to play the matchup that doesn't incorporate as much early aggression/cheese?" If they can't, hopefully blizz will change something to fix that. My point is that we're not at the point yet where we know whether or not they're capable of figuring that out. There's a big difference between giving Zerg tools to hold all ins, and making them immune to early pressure. Zergs were already dealing with Terran aggression pre-patch. Zergs like DRG could slap away any attempt at early pressure while droning safely and his ability to do that was what got him the label as the best Zerg in the world. Now? Any Zerg can do it thanks to the Queens. The beautiful skill that was displayed by DRG in his ability to play as greedy as possible and still survive is completely pointless now. DRG could do it BECAUSE he was the best zerg in the world. And I still think you're missing the point. MAYBE "early pressure" should be looked at differently. Maybe what timing attack you would do before should now just be meant to clean up creep and produce units, rather than trying to deny a third/kill them/whatever. The point is, WE DON'T KNOW YET.
I'm just pointing out what it was about TvZ that used to make it so fun to watch.
The Terran could win early, or the Zerg could hold it off and go to the late game, the Terran plays from behind in the late game but somehow manages to survive anyway, or the Zerg is able to hold on to his lead thanks to his brilliant defense at the beginning and come away victorious.
There was dynamic to it. You didn't know how it was going to go. It was exciting! Harassment and early pressure was part of what it made it great. How Zergs dealt with early pressure was what separated the DRGs from everyone else.
Giving Zergs an automatic ticket to the late game just stagnates the possibilities of the match up, and makes something that USED to be a demonstration of skill, and ability something that everyone that plays Zerg is now for the most part entitled to.
That's my point.
Sure Terrans MIGHT at some point be able to adjust, but that dynamic that made TvZ has been hurt severely.
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On June 22 2012 06:47 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:41 GuitarBizarre wrote:On June 22 2012 06:39 RavenLoud wrote:
I'm afraid this won't fly. Blizzard intended thors to be weak to armored air (Void rays, carriers), if you give them 10 range strike cannon that hits air then it becomes a total counter to carriers.
Ah yes. I forgot how many builds rely on lategame carriers these days. Lol touche. I guess that speaks more for the fact that carriers sucks and that nobody goes mech in TvP.
if mech were to become at all viable vs protoss, then carriers would instantly find their role in SC2. However, blizzard hates tanks and loves mawines and mawauders.
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On June 22 2012 06:46 andropopp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:40 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 22 2012 06:34 andropopp wrote:On June 22 2012 06:16 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. That still doesn't solve the core problem. This "do damage early or die in the late game" is something that is inherently imbalanced. It justifies Terrans having proportionately strong early and mid game timings yet at the same time is a complete justification for Terran tier 3 being next to useless in TvZ and TvP. The changes that have been made to Protoss and Zerg over the last few patches have all addressed their issues of reaching the late game, now it's much safer and easier for them to reach their late game units they build towards all game. Meanwhile Terrans reach their peak combat effectiveness in the mid game. Ravens, Battlecruisers and Thors are just not anywhere near as useful as what the other races have available at the same tech level. Terrans can't build towards a superior army composition in the late game, because their midgame army composition of heavy bio, or heavy bio with siege tanks is the most effective army composition Terrans can field. i disagree with you on terrans having a weak lategame. I think thats an illusion created by the other weaknesses of terran, such as the weakness of not being able to play a greedy nr 15 style safely. I think ravens, BC's, and thors ARE strong but the reason they seem weak is because in order for terran to get them on the same level of zerg they need to play "greedy NR 15 style" which is extremely weak to any zerg aggression while zergs essentially are able to play that style safely and destroy what makes TvZ seem so horrible right now is terran is forced to focus on their midgame strength much more intensely just to survive, while the zerg can get to their endgame faster while sacrificing midgame strength for more economy and still being safe from all-ins. Terran cannot do that. Plus most terrans are also sacrificing economy early trying to deal with creep early game or to pressure early game, making the terran even weaker lategame because he sacrificed economy early. This is not the terrans fault really he just feels he has to do something to stop that creep. I think the true terran lategame can actually kill zergs lategame or at least contest with it equally. Terran just has no safe greedy economic way to get there, but zerg does. I believe if a terran and a zerg both said "NR 15" and did greedy builds and took 3 fast bases (thats about how long it takes to get 3 bases with lots of lategame tech thrown in plus required lategame production, 15mins. zerg will have a fourth but it wont be too operational at that point) the terran could be on an even footing as the zerg and compete with the zerg lategame even if he let the zerg put creep on the entire map by 15 minutes. But that is a unrealistic scenario. In real games the terran needs to make alot of midgame strength to not die to all-in's, while the zerg can pump pure economy realistically and always be safe from anything. and the midgame strength the terran does create has realistically zero ability to pressure the zerg effectively and even trying to pressure the zerg with that army is usually suicide the zerg produces just enough to roll you over and now your super behind in economy Yeah we saw MKP beat stephano with early pressure but DRG destroyed the same early pressure. It really looked to me like stephano made huge mistakes that game, MKP made almost no blunders while stephano was slower than he could be. If the zerg makes big mistakes and the terran makes no mistakes, terran can win. But the terran cant force the zerg to do like that, its the zerg thats beating himself, not the terran thats beating the zerg. The terran can only play perfectly and make zero mistakes and hope the zerg messes up and if the zerg doesnt mess up its gg. think about this terran lategame army 6 BC 36 6 thor 36 6 raven 12 3ghosts 6 4tank 12 19 vikings 38 3 planetary fortresses at each expansion to defend ling runbys thats 140food. terran can hang with 60scv's lategame thanks to 2 orbitals/ mules (while the rest of the CC's would be used to put 3 planetarys at each expansion) i think you would be hard pressed to find a 140food zerg army that trades nicely with that army as long as you make sure to spread the vikings to avoid fungals. while using that army the trick is you would want to keep your tanks out of siegemode if your enemy has too much broodlords or ultras, but use siegemode if the enemy has tons of lings/roaches and low amounts of broodlords. Broodlords counter siegemode too hard, but tanks for 3food (while being super expensive for 3food) are actually strong out of siegemode but have the option of using it to counter mass ling/baneling in battle your micro focus is to spread your whole army before the battle very well to avoid fungal/ultralisk splash as best as you can. Remember to keep your ravens and ghosts slightly behind your army protecting them from getting NP'ed. At the start of the battle quickly launch 6 yamatos on the ultralisks or broods then fly in your ravens and launch 6 HSM's on the corrupters. During the period of you using yamato/HSM the zerg is likely spamming fungal at this point. Then run in your ghosts and spam snipe on infestors (to counter NP. NP would be very strong against thors but 3ghosts should deal with it since snipe has a longrange to spam snipe on those infestors). During the hectic battle considering the ravens fly in to launch missiles seconds after the battle starts, this should hopefully greatly reduce the chance of the zerg getting off a successful NP on a raven due to the fact that the zerg is likely trying to micro off and score multiple good fungals during this time as each good fungal can do 200+ damage per click (as much as yamato) then after the corrupters/broodlords are dead, land your vikings and clean up the rest I really dont think theres a 140food zerg army in the unit tester that you could find that fights that terran lategame army well. im assuming the perfect zerg lategame army has both ultras and broodlords with infestors and corrupters and whatever else problem is in a real game the zerg proceedes to remax in 20 seconds with several extra 200food roach armies then the terran gets rolled over anyway long story short if terran HAD A WAY to safely get their lategame that wasnt suicide and low economy compared to the zerg, they could be good Dude you're theorycrafting so hard right now you've completely forgotten how Terran production works. Zerg and Protoss late game are both great because they complement their midgame army composition. You make Collosus out of the Robotics Facility and everything else you need comes from Warp Gates, and everything from Warp Gates can be reinforced quickly. Everything shares upgrades from the Forge. Everything Zerg makes, from the lowliest Zergling to the mighty Ultralisk comes from larvae. The time it takes for Zergs to tech, is the amount of time it takes for them to be able to mass produce any unit they want. Terran late game however, comes from Factories and Starports and a majority of the units you listed in there requires tech labs which means only a single unit can be produced from it at a time. Each of those factories or starports costs 100 gas, each tech lab costs another 25. are you disagree'ing with me or agree'ing with me everything you said is 100% EXACTLY what i was trying to say. THATS MY POINT, the terran is FORCED to not be able to play a "greedy NR 15 style" and he cannot actually get super lategame tech and economy while skipping midgame, but the zerg can my point was that, HYPOTHETICALLY, if the zerg and terran both said "nr 15" then the terran could enter the endgame at an equal level of the zerg because he can just skip barracks/bio completely and go for pure endgame and mech/air upgrades and zero bio upgrades but the game is not like that. the terran cannot play a "nr 15" style because he would get obliterated by any light aggression the zerg felt like doing Show nested quote +
The amount of time and resources it takes to max out on an army composition like the one you're proposing is completely unrealistic compared to what it would cost the other races to do the same, and what's more is that they don't need to since their late game units mesh well with the units they're already using from the previous tiers.
Broodlings share upgrades with Zerglings and Ultralisks, Collosus share upgrades with Archons and Zealots. Battlecruisers Thors and Ghosts all require a separate set of upgrades.
Do you see how far'fetched the playstyle you're talking about is yet?
again.. are you agree'ing with me or disagree'ing with me? I cant even tell what you just said IS EXACTLY MY POINT my point if you even read that post was that only in a hypothetical scenario where both players say "alright NR 15" can the terran actually enter the lategame on an even footing with the zerg. other than that terran is forced to sacrifice economy and build up low-tech while the zerg is maxing pure economy and getting their high-tech goodies
You're arguing that Terran late game isn't bad because if it's massed together in a completely unrealistic scenario it's worthwhile.
I'm arguing that Terran late game is ONLY good when it's massed together in a completely unrealistic scenario, because the late game units in the Terran arsenal do not complement the mid game army compositions Terrans can field in the way that Protoss and Zerg late game units can.
And even at that point. If somehow you COULD magically make a perfect Terran deathball.... you'd never be able to make 2 because of the amount of pure time it takes to remake those units, so essentially the kind of playstyle you're talking about is just an elaborate all in, that hits at 45 minutes as opposed to 9-15.
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