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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
Zerg is not safe early game anymore, zerg is nearly invulnerable.
Before the patch, zerg was safe. It just depended on his skill and the terran's. The matchup was perfectly balanced. A very slight early help would have been good, but this buff is not a "slight" buff. I thought it was at first in theory, and I agreed with it. But in practice it's one of the biggest buff in zerg's history.
I'm very sad there is no consensus on this. It was not a slight buff that helped a little. It was a buff that reset one side of the matchup totally and sent terran back to beta in term of builds. People who are suggesting banshees or ravens or anything just didn't understand the impact it had on the matchup.
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On June 22 2012 04:29 superstartran wrote:
Yeah because MC who knows how to micro HTs doesn't know how to play the game. Gtfo. The EMP nerf was there because Ghosts could OUTRANGE HTs with EMP, and it was completely unfair, period. Not to mention it took you 4-6 Ghosts to carpet bomb EMP an entire army, which was ridiculous in itself.
Anyone who thought the massive EMP radius before was fair is kidding themselves. It was way too big, and allowed you to get away with far too much. Now we're getting OT though so let's stop this silly argument, everyone knows who is right and who is wrong. And you're wrong.
Not to mention it took you 4-6 Ghosts to carpet bomb EMP an entire army, which was ridiculous in itself.
Not to mention it takes you 4-6 HT to carpet bomb Storm an entire army, which is ridiculous in itself.
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On June 22 2012 05:15 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:09 Holophonist wrote:
I would love to see examples of terran players opening passively/greedily and just setting up for the late game (clearing creep, getting upgrades, making scv's) and then move into consistent aggression to try to trade cost efficiently. I'm thinking specifically of utilizing bio. I'm a low/mid masters zerg and the scariest terrans by FAR are the ones that play passively with an eye towards the late game. The easiest ones to beat are the ones trying to execute one of the myriad of 2 base weird compositions all-ins/"pressure" builds. If you open 3 CC, you need tanks to be safe against busts. You also need upgrades. Do you really think you can go clean some creep with 3 CC and double ebay? Zerg army midgame = as strong as terran: infestor + ling + bling Zerg army lategame = stronger then terran: infestor + broodlord + corruptor / infestor + ultra + baneling + ling As long it's this way, nothing will help terrans.
I really don't think you can debate lategame compositions in a lab (on a forum). They're far too dependent on how the rest of the game has played out. An equal value terran army in a defensive position stands a fine chance against broodlord infestor. You can argue it's harder to micro, harder to get the right composition, whatever. I'm really not interested in getting bogged down in smaller arguments as there is far too much bias and far too few concessions on either side when they occur. Not to mention I despise hearing things like "fungal outranges seeker missile" as if that really means anything in an actual game when talking about using seeker missile on corruptors.
I didn't say when you clean up creep. I'm merely saying that if there's too much creep to attack, don't attack. clean up the creep and go home. I see so many (and play so many) zvts where terrans still TRY to be aggressive, and then cry when it doesn't work. It's not SUPPOSED to work anymore, that was the point of the buff.
But for all the cries about how much creep there is now, I even seeing players like MKP just freely walk over it without scanning to clean it up, like on the regular. Watch his games vs symbol the other day. Or his games vs stephano in.... the last mlg? I can't remember foreign tournament it was in. I think MLG Anaheim.
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There is no consensus because there is such a large portion of people here dominated by the worst chain of thought ever. People think that since Terran was strong in the past, they should be weak now. A number of people know how bad the change has made things but still don't see anything wrong.. Balance isn't vengeance lol..
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On June 22 2012 05:37 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:35 Holophonist wrote:On June 22 2012 05:24 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 22 2012 05:09 Holophonist wrote:
Hey it's 40+ pages in but I'm just gonna quickly throw in my opinion regarding the OP.
I think, as some people have already pointed out that it's still too early to tell. If I may inject some personal bias, terran had been winning for a loonnnnng time, and the fact that they're currently struggling (directly after a pretty significant patch) shouldn't be as much of a cause for concern as everybody is making it out to be. Especially as long as we still see people opening the same way (reactor hellion exp) or somewhere in the middle (1 rax fe into reactor hellion).
I don't agree that the way tvz is supposed to be played is to injure the zerg early on to the point of having enough of an advantage going into the late game to where you feel like you can win. I feel like the 3 CC opener (or something similar) into light pressure primarily geared towards clearing creep is going to be (or should be) the new standard. I mean... you guys do realize that the POINT of the buff was specifically to make zerg more safe in the early game?
I would love to see examples of terran players opening passively/greedily and just setting up for the late game (clearing creep, getting upgrades, making scv's) and then move into consistent aggression to try to trade cost efficiently. I'm thinking specifically of utilizing bio. I'm a low/mid masters zerg and the scariest terrans by FAR are the ones that play passively with an eye towards the late game. The easiest ones to beat are the ones trying to execute one of the myriad of 2 base weird compositions all-ins/"pressure" builds. yea and ur low master for a reason terrans players have been doing 3cc clean creep mass up since 1 year+ ? this specific playstyle is bad now. its still the best and most solid imo but if z plays right it rolls over and dies Lol ok. It's funny... it doesn't matter what league you're in, there's always going to be somebody who appeals to authority because they're a few points higher than you. If I had posted last season when I was mid to high masters, would that have made it any more valid? You also didn't comprehend my post. I'm saying I think it should be the new standard. triple cc is not the standard and never has been. It actually is for the past month. It's either BBB or 3CC (and die trying).
He said past year+. And the past month is fine, give it some time for terrans to acclimate. Like I said, this patch was specifically geared towards making zerg more safe in the early game, and what people are talking about is how safe zerg is in the early game........???
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On June 22 2012 05:47 SupLilSon wrote:
There is no consensus because there is such a large portion of people here dominated by the worst chain of thought ever. People think that since Terran was strong in the past, they should be weak now. A number of people know how bad the change has made things but still don't see anything wrong.. Balance isn't vengeance lol..
Not sure if you're gearing any of that towards me, but it's not what I was getting at. I'm not saying that terran deserves to lose now, what I'm saying is, I'm ok with them playing from behind. It should be cyclical with races/strategies being dominant for a while before a sufficient counter/counter playstyle is devised until the game is "totally" balanced.
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On June 22 2012 05:47 Holophonist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:15 Snowbear wrote:On June 22 2012 05:09 Holophonist wrote:
I would love to see examples of terran players opening passively/greedily and just setting up for the late game (clearing creep, getting upgrades, making scv's) and then move into consistent aggression to try to trade cost efficiently. I'm thinking specifically of utilizing bio. I'm a low/mid masters zerg and the scariest terrans by FAR are the ones that play passively with an eye towards the late game. The easiest ones to beat are the ones trying to execute one of the myriad of 2 base weird compositions all-ins/"pressure" builds. If you open 3 CC, you need tanks to be safe against busts. You also need upgrades. Do you really think you can go clean some creep with 3 CC and double ebay? Zerg army midgame = as strong as terran: infestor + ling + bling Zerg army lategame = stronger then terran: infestor + broodlord + corruptor / infestor + ultra + baneling + ling As long it's this way, nothing will help terrans. I really don't think you can debate lategame compositions in a lab (on a forum). They're far too dependent on how the rest of the game has played out. An equal value terran army in a defensive position stands a fine chance against broodlord infestor. You can argue it's harder to micro, harder to get the right composition, whatever. I'm really not interested in getting bogged down in smaller arguments as there is far too much bias and far too few concessions on either side when they occur. Not to mention I despise hearing things like "fungal outranges seeker missile" as if that really means anything in an actual game when talking about using seeker missile on corruptors. I didn't say when you clean up creep. I'm merely saying that if there's too much creep to attack, don't attack. clean up the creep and go home. I see so many (and play so many) zvts where terrans still TRY to be aggressive, and then cry when it doesn't work. It's not SUPPOSED to work anymore, that was the point of the buff. But for all the cries about how much creep there is now, I even seeing players like MKP just freely walk over it without scanning to clean it up, like on the regular. Watch his games vs symbol the other day. Or his games vs stephano in.... the last mlg? I can't remember foreign tournament it was in. I think MLG Anaheim.
Or maybe you miss half the times when a quadrilllion tumors are cleaned up only for the Queens to happily waltz back to put them back after the Terran army pulls back and the Zerg army gains control over the area. It's obvious that sometimes it's way better to go for the jugular than to continually be hemmed in and hope the Zerg isn't using its macro advantages.
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On June 22 2012 05:47 Holophonist wrote:
I didn't say when you clean up creep. I'm merely saying that if there's too much creep to attack, don't attack. clean up the creep and go home. I see so many (and play so many) zvts where terrans still TRY to be aggressive, and then cry when it doesn't work. It's not SUPPOSED to work anymore, that was the point of the buff.
Go home and do what exactly? Buld a couple of thors? Two BCs? Or maybe a bunch of ravens? It is official statement from Blizzard: T has to do early/mid game damage to have a shot at the lategame. And clearing out a couple of tumors will not do the trick.
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On June 22 2012 05:52 Holophonist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:37 ragz_gt wrote:On June 22 2012 05:35 Holophonist wrote:On June 22 2012 05:24 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 22 2012 05:09 Holophonist wrote:
Hey it's 40+ pages in but I'm just gonna quickly throw in my opinion regarding the OP.
I think, as some people have already pointed out that it's still too early to tell. If I may inject some personal bias, terran had been winning for a loonnnnng time, and the fact that they're currently struggling (directly after a pretty significant patch) shouldn't be as much of a cause for concern as everybody is making it out to be. Especially as long as we still see people opening the same way (reactor hellion exp) or somewhere in the middle (1 rax fe into reactor hellion).
I don't agree that the way tvz is supposed to be played is to injure the zerg early on to the point of having enough of an advantage going into the late game to where you feel like you can win. I feel like the 3 CC opener (or something similar) into light pressure primarily geared towards clearing creep is going to be (or should be) the new standard. I mean... you guys do realize that the POINT of the buff was specifically to make zerg more safe in the early game?
I would love to see examples of terran players opening passively/greedily and just setting up for the late game (clearing creep, getting upgrades, making scv's) and then move into consistent aggression to try to trade cost efficiently. I'm thinking specifically of utilizing bio. I'm a low/mid masters zerg and the scariest terrans by FAR are the ones that play passively with an eye towards the late game. The easiest ones to beat are the ones trying to execute one of the myriad of 2 base weird compositions all-ins/"pressure" builds. yea and ur low master for a reason terrans players have been doing 3cc clean creep mass up since 1 year+ ? this specific playstyle is bad now. its still the best and most solid imo but if z plays right it rolls over and dies Lol ok. It's funny... it doesn't matter what league you're in, there's always going to be somebody who appeals to authority because they're a few points higher than you. If I had posted last season when I was mid to high masters, would that have made it any more valid? You also didn't comprehend my post. I'm saying I think it should be the new standard. triple cc is not the standard and never has been. It actually is for the past month. It's either BBB or 3CC (and die trying). He said past year+. And the past month is fine, give it some time for terrans to acclimate. Like I said, this patch was specifically geared towards making zerg more safe in the early game, and what people are talking about is how safe zerg is in the early game........???
This isn't just safe. This is TOO safe. It's downright impenetrable.
Most of us don't mind if you keep the overlord buff. That's enough, you'll get your scouting info and as long as you pay attention you'll be able to defend yourself. But complemented by the queen buff it just gets out of hand. It's the equivalent of giving terran a PF/OB hybrid. You can defend yourself without letting your production suffer in the least.
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On June 22 2012 05:16 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:09 Holophonist wrote:
Hey it's 40+ pages in but I'm just gonna quickly throw in my opinion regarding the OP.
I think, as some people have already pointed out that it's still too early to tell. If I may inject some personal bias, terran had been winning for a loonnnnng time, and the fact that they're currently struggling (directly after a pretty significant patch) shouldn't be as much of a cause for concern as everybody is making it out to be. Especially as long as we still see people opening the same way (reactor hellion exp) or somewhere in the middle (1 rax fe into reactor hellion).
I don't agree that the way tvz is supposed to be played is to injure the zerg early on to the point of having enough of an advantage going into the late game to where you feel like you can win. I feel like the 3 CC opener (or something similar) into light pressure primarily geared towards clearing creep is going to be (or should be) the new standard. I mean... you guys do realize that the POINT of the buff was specifically to make zerg more safe in the early game?
I would love to see examples of terran players opening passively/greedily and just setting up for the late game (clearing creep, getting upgrades, making scv's) and then move into consistent aggression to try to trade cost efficiently. I'm thinking specifically of utilizing bio. I'm a low/mid masters zerg and the scariest terrans by FAR are the ones that play passively with an eye towards the late game. The easiest ones to beat are the ones trying to execute one of the myriad of 2 base weird compositions all-ins/"pressure" builds. Save early game yes. BUT not too save that they freely Drone to 70-80 without ever beeing touched and teching to Hive at 13-15 minuntes. Especially when Terran has no answer for hive tech if you can't make the Zerg invest stuff he doesn't want to build. You cannot open passively against Zerg in Sc2 you'll get outmacroed like crazy. Also aggresive Zerg play kill or put the Zerg heavily ahead against a 3CC opener if they chose to do so.
What if terrans learned better the timings for the type of zerg aggression that kills the 3cc opener? I presume you mean some variation of a roach bust, or perhaps a being muta ling/bane attack on the 3rd? I'm merely asking to put the idea into your mind that things tend to get figured out AFTER people lose to them for long enough. A month since the patch is not a long time. Especially since terrans have NOT explored the plethora of options they have.
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On June 22 2012 05:52 Holophonist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:37 ragz_gt wrote:On June 22 2012 05:35 Holophonist wrote:On June 22 2012 05:24 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 22 2012 05:09 Holophonist wrote:
Hey it's 40+ pages in but I'm just gonna quickly throw in my opinion regarding the OP.
I think, as some people have already pointed out that it's still too early to tell. If I may inject some personal bias, terran had been winning for a loonnnnng time, and the fact that they're currently struggling (directly after a pretty significant patch) shouldn't be as much of a cause for concern as everybody is making it out to be. Especially as long as we still see people opening the same way (reactor hellion exp) or somewhere in the middle (1 rax fe into reactor hellion).
I don't agree that the way tvz is supposed to be played is to injure the zerg early on to the point of having enough of an advantage going into the late game to where you feel like you can win. I feel like the 3 CC opener (or something similar) into light pressure primarily geared towards clearing creep is going to be (or should be) the new standard. I mean... you guys do realize that the POINT of the buff was specifically to make zerg more safe in the early game?
I would love to see examples of terran players opening passively/greedily and just setting up for the late game (clearing creep, getting upgrades, making scv's) and then move into consistent aggression to try to trade cost efficiently. I'm thinking specifically of utilizing bio. I'm a low/mid masters zerg and the scariest terrans by FAR are the ones that play passively with an eye towards the late game. The easiest ones to beat are the ones trying to execute one of the myriad of 2 base weird compositions all-ins/"pressure" builds. yea and ur low master for a reason terrans players have been doing 3cc clean creep mass up since 1 year+ ? this specific playstyle is bad now. its still the best and most solid imo but if z plays right it rolls over and dies Lol ok. It's funny... it doesn't matter what league you're in, there's always going to be somebody who appeals to authority because they're a few points higher than you. If I had posted last season when I was mid to high masters, would that have made it any more valid? You also didn't comprehend my post. I'm saying I think it should be the new standard. triple cc is not the standard and never has been. It actually is for the past month. It's either BBB or 3CC (and die trying). He said past year+. And the past month is fine, give it some time for terrans to acclimate. Like I said, this patch was specifically geared towards making zerg more safe in the early game, and what people are talking about is how safe zerg is in the early game........???
3cc is the standard, and macro terrans have been doing it again and again since infinity time. idc that much about ur ladder rating just u dont understand terran plat, yet u feel entitled to comment about problems were facing. ive been doing 3cc build since typhon peak ffs, and guess what, u rely on denying creep with hellions, or go pure bio which is bad. and guess what hellions suck now. and thats why 3cc banshees raven is popular kinda but 6queen is the hardcounter to it. u cant deny creep without camping an entire army at zerg nat. and no ppl dont complain about zerg early.
actually u dont know what ure talking about so stop saying its ok when nobody can win tvz now ok ?
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The problem is starting to be realized, and I've been saying this for a while. The game's progression is a design, and it's VERY VERY flawed design.
It's been mentioned before, but what if, just WHAT IF there's a new very effective Terran strategy. The design will go like this:
1. The build is realized
2. It's used in pro play
3. Everyone sees it
4. People replicate it on ladder
5. It gets nerfed
Blizzard needs to get some balls and either make some SERIOUS, SERIOUS changes to this design, or not do ANYTHING AT ALL.
We're running in circles when it comes to this game. It's ridiculous. I want to see BIG changes to CURRENT UNITS (not a cheap cop-out like the new units in HotS) or I don't want to see any changes at all.
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On June 22 2012 05:58 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:47 Holophonist wrote:
I didn't say when you clean up creep. I'm merely saying that if there's too much creep to attack, don't attack. clean up the creep and go home. I see so many (and play so many) zvts where terrans still TRY to be aggressive, and then cry when it doesn't work. It's not SUPPOSED to work anymore, that was the point of the buff.
Go home and do what exactly? Buld a couple of thors? Two BCs? Or maybe a bunch of ravens? It is official statement from Blizzard: T has to do early/mid game damage to have a shot at the lategame. And clearing out a couple of tumors will not do the trick.
Not to mention how slowly creep regresses...
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There's a multitude of problems with Terran lategame. You can't just point to 1 thing and say - fixing it will make the terran on even footing and even to keep up if they sit back and macro.
I won't go into much detail, unless people ask, but here are the main issues
#1 Reinforce speed. It's mostly relevant at 3-5 bases. After 6 bases and in map-split position it becomes less relevant.
#2 Supply ineffectiveness. Relevant when you are able to max out, but still not able to transition to a mostly MULE economy. Which also usually means 3-5 bases. Terran lategame 130 supply army is probably the least effective if you try to build an all-around force, and not just hard counter.
#3 Large maps. Harder for T to reinforce + harder to do damage mid-game because of longer travel time.
#4 Bad/Weak AOE. Siege tanks are weak + hurt friendlies, HSM is slow, easily dodged and essentially 1-time use. Ravens aren't even an option in TvP because of feedback.
#5 Problem - if you fix ALL of the problems above, it will actually make Terran TOO strong. #3 you basically can't touch, because large maps are good and more fun, because they promote macro games and not bitbybit bullshit style.
So you basically have to take #1, #2 or #4 and fix one of those. Then see how it affects winrates. Then MAYBE fix one more issue. Then stop and let it play out for longer.
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Why nobody think that the actual OP factor is creep itself, i remember that peoples complains about observer for be map hacking, but creep its to powerfull, not only it gives you vision, and more speed, its also free. (well almost free)
The thing I really hate is that the creep get to the enemies base, neither I understand why it retires that slow. I have seeing latelly a lot of Terran scaning a destroying a lot of tumors for what? in 1 minute the creep will go back because that thing simple doesn't retire
The problem before is that nobody see that because zerg simply cannot expand the creep to all over the map, was contained near their bases like it should be but now with the Queen change
Could somebody with more experience talk about it, I could be completly wrong but I want to understand
Isnt creep alone just too powerfull
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On June 22 2012 05:37 Aurrora wrote:
Didn't Artosis think that the 5 queen range was good and SOTG talked about it saying it was fine? Terrans are too scared of creep and 5 range queens. They still tickle helions. You can keep the creep cut back with the helions (by taking little damage) while sniping tumors. Or you can run PAST the queens because zergs go up to 65 drones with no sim city, spines, or lings. Just run past and roast a mineral line. Anyways, Terrans are doing abusive builds thinking that it will work (that is meant to keep zerg on 2 base for a really long period of time) when it just doesnt anymore because you don't run by and kill drones. Trade drones for helions and you're in a good spot. You trade units for economy and zerg has to remake that economy. Just play the game.
there are reasonable terran representatives in the sotg?
are you really considering sotg actually talked about an unbiased pov of the game?
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On June 22 2012 05:58 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:47 Holophonist wrote:
I didn't say when you clean up creep. I'm merely saying that if there's too much creep to attack, don't attack. clean up the creep and go home. I see so many (and play so many) zvts where terrans still TRY to be aggressive, and then cry when it doesn't work. It's not SUPPOSED to work anymore, that was the point of the buff.
Go home and do what exactly? Buld a couple of thors? Two BCs? Or maybe a bunch of ravens? It is official statement from Blizzard: T has to do early/mid game damage to have a shot at the lategame. And clearing out a couple of tumors will not do the trick.
This kind of discussion really isn't helpful at all. The things you have to do to win this game (particularly the later in the game we're talking about), really can't be written out well enough to fully describe the situation. I'm not going to sit here and theory craft with you, as that really doesn't get anybody anywhere. Who would've thought that roaches (even roach drops for heavens sake!) could be a viable counter to stargate play in zvp. You don't think it's feasible to get 3 CC's, start 1/1, get medivacs out and begin to apply pressure using bio? Your first push may get crushed, at the expense of a considerable amount of gas, but bio play on 3 bases can be sustained for a LONG time, giving you a ton of time to trade cost efficiently and while expanding behind it.
The point: have some humility and please realize that it may take more than a month for terran to come up with a new playstyle. Do you think it was good for the game to have hellions just plainly parked outside of the zerg natural, denying all creep/ling scouts until speed was done or until you got mutas out? That wasn't good for the game either.
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On June 22 2012 06:00 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:52 Holophonist wrote:On June 22 2012 05:37 ragz_gt wrote:On June 22 2012 05:35 Holophonist wrote:On June 22 2012 05:24 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 22 2012 05:09 Holophonist wrote:
Hey it's 40+ pages in but I'm just gonna quickly throw in my opinion regarding the OP.
I think, as some people have already pointed out that it's still too early to tell. If I may inject some personal bias, terran had been winning for a loonnnnng time, and the fact that they're currently struggling (directly after a pretty significant patch) shouldn't be as much of a cause for concern as everybody is making it out to be. Especially as long as we still see people opening the same way (reactor hellion exp) or somewhere in the middle (1 rax fe into reactor hellion).
I don't agree that the way tvz is supposed to be played is to injure the zerg early on to the point of having enough of an advantage going into the late game to where you feel like you can win. I feel like the 3 CC opener (or something similar) into light pressure primarily geared towards clearing creep is going to be (or should be) the new standard. I mean... you guys do realize that the POINT of the buff was specifically to make zerg more safe in the early game?
I would love to see examples of terran players opening passively/greedily and just setting up for the late game (clearing creep, getting upgrades, making scv's) and then move into consistent aggression to try to trade cost efficiently. I'm thinking specifically of utilizing bio. I'm a low/mid masters zerg and the scariest terrans by FAR are the ones that play passively with an eye towards the late game. The easiest ones to beat are the ones trying to execute one of the myriad of 2 base weird compositions all-ins/"pressure" builds. yea and ur low master for a reason terrans players have been doing 3cc clean creep mass up since 1 year+ ? this specific playstyle is bad now. its still the best and most solid imo but if z plays right it rolls over and dies Lol ok. It's funny... it doesn't matter what league you're in, there's always going to be somebody who appeals to authority because they're a few points higher than you. If I had posted last season when I was mid to high masters, would that have made it any more valid? You also didn't comprehend my post. I'm saying I think it should be the new standard. triple cc is not the standard and never has been. It actually is for the past month. It's either BBB or 3CC (and die trying). He said past year+. And the past month is fine, give it some time for terrans to acclimate. Like I said, this patch was specifically geared towards making zerg more safe in the early game, and what people are talking about is how safe zerg is in the early game........??? 3cc is the standard, and macro terrans have been doing it again and again since infinity time. idc that much about ur ladder rating just u dont understand terran plat, yet u feel entitled to comment about problems were facing. ive been doing 3cc build since typhon peak ffs, and guess what, u rely on denying creep with hellions, or go pure bio which is bad. and guess what hellions suck now. and thats why 3cc banshees raven is popular kinda but 6queen is the hardcounter to it. u cant deny creep without camping an entire army at zerg nat. and no ppl dont complain about zerg early. actually u dont know what ure talking about so stop saying its ok when nobody can win tvz now ok ?
How do I not understand terran play? Because I don't play terran? You really think a balance discussion should only include the race that's claiming it's in trouble? Lol... sounds productive.
You're also not even reading what I'm saying! I didn't say it's "ok" as in terran players are winning... I've already said a couple times that terran players are currently losing. The point is that you're supposed to lose after a patch like this, if it's aimed at changing the way the matchup is played..
EDIT: Please don't say I don't understand "terran play" when you just flatly say things like pure bio is bad and hellions are bad. Maybe you just can't use them.
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In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably.
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On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably.
Far too constructive and cool-headed for a balance discussion......
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EPT
