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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 22 2012 04:07 padfoota wrote:
Hide nested quote -
On June 22 2012 04:05 Destructicon wrote:
On June 22 2012 04:00 biology]major wrote:
On June 22 2012 03:55 HeroMystic wrote:
On June 22 2012 03:49 tronix wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it
The viper yes, and Hydras with the speed buff will work like marines with stim, you'll be able to stutter step, split, storm dodge etc, so that makes me happy. And the widow mine forces you to split up or isolate the unit with the mine. But everything else is a joke.
Battle Hellions and warhounds look like 1a units, swarm hosts don't require any micro, just massing, oracle is a joke because it is a low risk low reward unit, it goes in quickly, entombs and then runs away and tempest is just ridiculous, 22 range without any setup time, on a flying unit is just broken.
The sad part is, the viper will work like the infestor in that it will force a strong reaction from the other player, but won't require so much input from the zerg. If a viper casts blinding cloud in a area the terran absolutely needs to move out of it, but the zerg spent just 2 clicks to do it and then he a-moves. And the abduct ruins well, thought out and positioned siege lines by sniping a unit in a very cheep way.
The bottom line is that blizzard just fucking hates tanks. They gave all 3 races a tank pwner even though tanks are the only thing that prevents TvT from just being a slugfest. Plus, i dont really see any way to counter those goddam flying vipers. EMP wont have any lasting effect with their siphon thing and ghosts already suck in that MU. Unless they revert the snipe patch, lategame TvZ is screwed for sure.
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On June 22 2012 03:29 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 22:43 HellionDrop wrote:On June 21 2012 22:08 Naphal wrote:
It's basically impossible for a terran with the same skill level as the zerg to win.
100% agreed, and for casuals, it is the same with protoss, that is how terran got pushed down on ladder and has the lowest representation in all leagues except silver and bronze, because that is kinda where you end up...
i consider MVP the best player of sc2, when he says "mech does not work in TvP" artosis comments become a running joke.
and now MKP and even DRG speak up against the current situation? seems this discussion is over apart from the few butthurt casual ladderjoes trying to justify their recent successes...
at least i was not bragging when i did only cloaked banshees 1 month after release <.< and now i should go back to bansheecheese? not to win no, to remove creep? with a raven? a BCrush costs the same you know? and is way cooler...
lmao, be real. even assuming that terran is harder to play, the difference won't be that big. just go play another race and see how far you can get. most people just like to make excuse for their shortcomings, i understand that balance can affect your play, but the likelihood that a brozne terran is a master in another race is small. being a terran player myself, i don't like so many nerfs, too, but many people just aren't that good. I could already defeat terrans my skill level when I tried off racing zerg for the first time because I knew how the matchup worked, and once I had the larva injects down my zerg was probably better than my terran. This was at high platinum level for what it's worth, back in the day when close position metalopolis and xel naga caverns existed. I tried off race battling vs a friend of mine who mained zerg. I beat his terran with my zerg 8/10 times, with him being a league above mine. Pretty subjective info, but I did find zerg easier to play at that level. Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 23:19 FakeDeath wrote:
Rerember amulet removal?People were saying toss cannot win anymore and the game was broken?
Rerember ghost EMP radius nerf? People were saying EMP won't be good anymore when the fact is pre-nerf ghost blanket EMP can dish out more than 1000k dmg to a toss army.
People always cry imbalance after a nerf or buff.
The Korean Terrans will find a solution soon enough. Amulet removal was broken by design, and justified by any objective measure. I welcomed the EMP radius nerf, but you have to take into consideration that the majority of the lategame TvP problems that people are having now started around that time, which means that maybe the EMP nerf radius was to much, and terrans haven't adjusted still. Terrans still haven't adjusted to the ghost snipe nerf in TvZ either in case you thought that people adapt to everything. Terrans have been all-inning more against both P and Z since those two patches. Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 23:32 FairForever wrote:It makes me laugh. When TvP was ridiculous with 1-1-1 for a month, Terrans: "L2P" Now when TvP and TvZ are a bit of a struggle for a month, Terrans: "OMG IMBA!" Balance whine is ridiculous, it was ridiculous when Zergs were struggling ZvT and it was ridiculous when Protoss complained about 1-1-1. It's just as ridiculous now. Terrans are only struggling because Blizzard keeps shoving shitty patches down everyones throat. Even the zergs are agreeing that the queen buff was overdone. That's how much of an impact it has had. It's on the level of 5 rax reaper retarded since it's the one thing before that time that people across races have agreed on being overpowered. Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 01:38 superstartran wrote:
HT WERE obsolete, they nerfed HT without nerfing the radius on EMP, which made them absolutely awful. HT usage didn't start becoming viable again until AFTER the EMP nerf.
Fungal Growth buff absolutely murdered Terran/Protoss to the point you could just make pure Infestors and roll over anyone.
People complained because they had legitimate complaints. HT nerf was met with an EMP nerf, which made the interactions between HT/Ghosts much more fair. Fungal Growth got nerfed so now FG doesn't murder mechanical units so badly. Protoss were playing the game wrong at that point tho. EMP might have been doing too much damage, but none of the protosses defended their HTs, spread them or trickled them in after the battle had begun at all the way they do now. They had everything in a massive clump that was easy to scan and EMP.
Yeah because MC who knows how to micro HTs doesn't know how to play the game. Gtfo. The EMP nerf was there because Ghosts could OUTRANGE HTs with EMP, and it was completely unfair, period. Not to mention it took you 4-6 Ghosts to carpet bomb EMP an entire army, which was ridiculous in itself.
Anyone who thought the massive EMP radius before was fair is kidding themselves. It was way too big, and allowed you to get away with far too much. Now we're getting OT though so let's stop this silly argument, everyone knows who is right and who is wrong. And you're wrong.
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On June 22 2012 04:09 ragz_gt wrote:
The problem to first is that Zerg can just pop down a Roach Warren and you are just as, if not more, dead. If you go triple CC you would have heck alot of fun trying to hold off roach/ling.
You can't get ghost fast enough to matter. They are a big investment, more ghost = other stuff just kill you easier since they are terrible against pretty much everything else. Because Ghost is so terrible against everything else (and not even that good against Investors), if Terran have more Ghost than Infester warrants, they just lose straight up battle and be done for. Even if you kill all Infester/BL with Ghost army, Zerg can just tech to switch to Ultra/ling with their superior economy, and you are equally screwed.
It would still come down to a matter of scouting. Heavy investment into hellions still gets boned by roach aggression just as easily. Throwing down a ghost academy doesn't specifically mean you have to have constant production, or even have a lot of them. Ghosts are anti-caster; while other casters are considered anti-army. 1-2 full energy ghosts can easily deal with 10 infestors
I'm trying to say that ghosts without the old snipe have less need to be such a big investment. Cost enough that they warrant a hard choice, but cheap enough that players don't disregard the unit entirely until the late-mid game. I don't have the specific way to do this in mind, but ghosts are disgustingly good against queens and infestors; which seem to be the root of the complaint.
As for changing the TvP matchup; changing ghost cost would only make things better imo. Might even be a deterrent to retarded FE mass gateway all-ins that are nigh impossible to stop even with bunkers and well placed scvs. Early tvp ghosts would still be about the crucial sentry emp, and a midgame comp with more ghosts would still be a snipe/feedback battle at the cost of some medivacs. (or an autoloss with collosus tech).
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On June 22 2012 04:20 ragz_gt wrote:
One thing I'd think would work and more enjoyable is make 250mm range 10 and hit air. This way Thor become a very viable counter to BL/Festor and can be backbone to Terran army late game.
This also create a fun battle for TvP, as it would one shot Colo but very weak against Templar (as is right now), might be able to bring some Mech back into TvP.
only if you make it weaker.
500 damage is a lot for something with 10 range.
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There are so many people in this thread who are fighting over whether it was the queen buff that broke TvZ, but really it was a combination of the queen range buff, the overlord speed increase and the average size of maps continuing to grow. The reason that these three changes have made the matchup so absurd is that they all increase the chances that a game reaches the late game without any major damage done by either side.
First, Blizzard has been making the maps larger each and every season in order to create longer more interesting games. This has lead to the death of a lot of the real early aggression we saw in the early days of SC2. Second the overlord speed increase has made it far easier for a zerg to get a scout off the opponents base 1-2min before any major alin timing. This has allowed for zergs to identify allins easier, and consequently to defend them easier. Therefore by speeding up the overlords Blizzard has again increased the chances that any given TvZ will reach the late game. Third, the queen range buff has increased the queens abilities to deal with both early marine pushes, as well as to handle small numbers of hellions without the need for any lings or roaches. This change again makes it easier for zergs to reach the late game without seriously being damaged.
Because Blizzard has stated that they believe it is fine for terran to have a weaker late game in return for a stronger mid game, by making the games on average longer terrans are finding that they are at a progressively worse situation. The only ways to ever really fix this is either make the terran late game stronger, or to make some maps smaller (I would personally love to see steps of war added back into the map pool.)
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On June 22 2012 04:34 LeMeatshield wrote:
There are so many people in this thread who are fighting over whether it was the queen buff that broke TvZ, but really it was a combination of the queen range buff, the overlord speed increase and the average size of maps continuing to grow. The reason that these three changes have made the matchup so absurd is that they all increase the chances that a game reaches the late game without any major damage done by either side.
First, Blizzard has been making the maps larger each and every season in order to create longer more interesting games. This has lead to the death of a lot of the real early aggression we saw in the early days of SC2. Second the overlord speed increase has made it far easier for a zerg to get a scout off the opponents base 1-2min before any major alin timing. This has allowed for zergs to identify allins easier, and consequently to defend them easier. Therefore by speeding up the overlords Blizzard has again increased the chances that any given TvZ will reach the late game. Third, the queen range buff has increased the queens abilities to deal with both early marine pushes, as well as to handle small numbers of hellions without the need for any lings or roaches. This change again makes it easier for zergs to reach the late game without seriously being damaged.
Because Blizzard has stated that they believe it is fine for terran to have a weaker late game in return for a stronger mid game, by making the games on average longer terrans are finding that they are at a progressively worse situation. The only ways to ever really fix this is either make the terran late game stronger, or to make some maps smaller (I would personally love to see steps of war added back into the map pool.)
I wonder how many of the TvP and TvZ issues could be fixed by smaller maps. Clearly terrans are most affected by long distances. If maps were smaller, early game pressure gets that much more deadly. Hence less greedy play, and things do not snowball out of control. I wonder how a best of 7 of two pros on steppes of war would look like today^^.
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On June 22 2012 04:33 antilyon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 04:20 ragz_gt wrote:
One thing I'd think would work and more enjoyable is make 250mm range 10 and hit air. This way Thor become a very viable counter to BL/Festor and can be backbone to Terran army late game.
This also create a fun battle for TvP, as it would one shot Colo but very weak against Templar (as is right now), might be able to bring some Mech back into TvP. only if you make it weaker. 500 damage is a lot for something with 10 range.
300 dmg at range 10 and shoot air, I can get behind that.
EDIT: Might as well be done with 250mm and just give Thor Yamato. Win-Win!
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On June 22 2012 04:44 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 04:33 antilyon wrote:On June 22 2012 04:20 ragz_gt wrote:
One thing I'd think would work and more enjoyable is make 250mm range 10 and hit air. This way Thor become a very viable counter to BL/Festor and can be backbone to Terran army late game.
This also create a fun battle for TvP, as it would one shot Colo but very weak against Templar (as is right now), might be able to bring some Mech back into TvP. only if you make it weaker. 500 damage is a lot for something with 10 range. 300 dmg at range 10 and shoot air, I can get behind that.
Or more costly thors and 500 dmg.
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a BL has 225 hp. you can make it a million dmg and it wont change a thing 
why are T complaining that hard after one month? but yes a slight snipe buff would be fine. the rest is just a metagame thing. things like the sentry immo push in zvp that basically gets a lot of "free" wins like 1-1-1 back in time gets not even looked in and exists since some months. so wait 2 more months, if zerg is still rolling over T blizzard will react.
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Hey it's 40+ pages in but I'm just gonna quickly throw in my opinion regarding the OP.
I think, as some people have already pointed out that it's still too early to tell. If I may inject some personal bias, terran had been winning for a loonnnnng time, and the fact that they're currently struggling (directly after a pretty significant patch) shouldn't be as much of a cause for concern as everybody is making it out to be. Especially as long as we still see people opening the same way (reactor hellion exp) or somewhere in the middle (1 rax fe into reactor hellion).
I don't agree that the way tvz is supposed to be played is to injure the zerg early on to the point of having enough of an advantage going into the late game to where you feel like you can win. I feel like the 3 CC opener (or something similar) into light pressure primarily geared towards clearing creep is going to be (or should be) the new standard. I mean... you guys do realize that the POINT of the buff was specifically to make zerg more safe in the early game?
I would love to see examples of terran players opening passively/greedily and just setting up for the late game (clearing creep, getting upgrades, making scv's) and then move into consistent aggression to try to trade cost efficiently. I'm thinking specifically of utilizing bio. I'm a low/mid masters zerg and the scariest terrans by FAR are the ones that play passively with an eye towards the late game. The easiest ones to beat are the ones trying to execute one of the myriad of 2 base weird compositions all-ins/"pressure" builds.
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On June 22 2012 05:09 Holophonist wrote:
I would love to see examples of terran players opening passively/greedily and just setting up for the late game (clearing creep, getting upgrades, making scv's) and then move into consistent aggression to try to trade cost efficiently. I'm thinking specifically of utilizing bio. I'm a low/mid masters zerg and the scariest terrans by FAR are the ones that play passively with an eye towards the late game. The easiest ones to beat are the ones trying to execute one of the myriad of 2 base weird compositions all-ins/"pressure" builds.
If you open 3 CC, you need tanks to be safe against busts. You also need upgrades. Do you really think you can go clean some creep with 3 CC and double ebay?
Zerg army midgame = as strong as terran: infestor + ling + bling
Zerg army lategame = stronger then terran: infestor + broodlord + corruptor / infestor + ultra + baneling + ling
As long it's this way, nothing will help terrans.
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On June 22 2012 05:09 Holophonist wrote:
Hey it's 40+ pages in but I'm just gonna quickly throw in my opinion regarding the OP.
I think, as some people have already pointed out that it's still too early to tell. If I may inject some personal bias, terran had been winning for a loonnnnng time, and the fact that they're currently struggling (directly after a pretty significant patch) shouldn't be as much of a cause for concern as everybody is making it out to be. Especially as long as we still see people opening the same way (reactor hellion exp) or somewhere in the middle (1 rax fe into reactor hellion).
I don't agree that the way tvz is supposed to be played is to injure the zerg early on to the point of having enough of an advantage going into the late game to where you feel like you can win. I feel like the 3 CC opener (or something similar) into light pressure primarily geared towards clearing creep is going to be (or should be) the new standard. I mean... you guys do realize that the POINT of the buff was specifically to make zerg more safe in the early game?
I would love to see examples of terran players opening passively/greedily and just setting up for the late game (clearing creep, getting upgrades, making scv's) and then move into consistent aggression to try to trade cost efficiently. I'm thinking specifically of utilizing bio. I'm a low/mid masters zerg and the scariest terrans by FAR are the ones that play passively with an eye towards the late game. The easiest ones to beat are the ones trying to execute one of the myriad of 2 base weird compositions all-ins/"pressure" builds.
Save early game yes. BUT not too save that they freely Drone to 70-80 without ever beeing touched and teching to Hive at 13-15 minuntes. Especially when Terran has no answer for hive tech if you can't make the Zerg invest stuff he doesn't want to build. You cannot open passively against Zerg in Sc2 you'll get outmacroed like crazy.
Also aggresive Zerg play kill or put the Zerg heavily ahead against a 3CC opener if they chose to do so.
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On June 22 2012 05:09 Holophonist wrote:
Hey it's 40+ pages in but I'm just gonna quickly throw in my opinion regarding the OP.
I think, as some people have already pointed out that it's still too early to tell. If I may inject some personal bias, terran had been winning for a loonnnnng time, and the fact that they're currently struggling (directly after a pretty significant patch) shouldn't be as much of a cause for concern as everybody is making it out to be. Especially as long as we still see people opening the same way (reactor hellion exp) or somewhere in the middle (1 rax fe into reactor hellion).
I don't agree that the way tvz is supposed to be played is to injure the zerg early on to the point of having enough of an advantage going into the late game to where you feel like you can win. I feel like the 3 CC opener (or something similar) into light pressure primarily geared towards clearing creep is going to be (or should be) the new standard. I mean... you guys do realize that the POINT of the buff was specifically to make zerg more safe in the early game?
I would love to see examples of terran players opening passively/greedily and just setting up for the late game (clearing creep, getting upgrades, making scv's) and then move into consistent aggression to try to trade cost efficiently. I'm thinking specifically of utilizing bio. I'm a low/mid masters zerg and the scariest terrans by FAR are the ones that play passively with an eye towards the late game. The easiest ones to beat are the ones trying to execute one of the myriad of 2 base weird compositions all-ins/"pressure" builds.
The problem is that Zerg is very safe in the early game, but that does NOT mean Zerg cannot be aggressive. In fact, a fast 3rd means more aggression capability if Zerg chooses so (more resource, more larva, more roach). 3 CC does not do very well against heavy roach pressure 7-8 min unless T invest heavily into defense, which negates the whole point of 3 CC.
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On June 22 2012 05:17 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:09 Holophonist wrote:
Hey it's 40+ pages in but I'm just gonna quickly throw in my opinion regarding the OP.
I think, as some people have already pointed out that it's still too early to tell. If I may inject some personal bias, terran had been winning for a loonnnnng time, and the fact that they're currently struggling (directly after a pretty significant patch) shouldn't be as much of a cause for concern as everybody is making it out to be. Especially as long as we still see people opening the same way (reactor hellion exp) or somewhere in the middle (1 rax fe into reactor hellion).
I don't agree that the way tvz is supposed to be played is to injure the zerg early on to the point of having enough of an advantage going into the late game to where you feel like you can win. I feel like the 3 CC opener (or something similar) into light pressure primarily geared towards clearing creep is going to be (or should be) the new standard. I mean... you guys do realize that the POINT of the buff was specifically to make zerg more safe in the early game?
I would love to see examples of terran players opening passively/greedily and just setting up for the late game (clearing creep, getting upgrades, making scv's) and then move into consistent aggression to try to trade cost efficiently. I'm thinking specifically of utilizing bio. I'm a low/mid masters zerg and the scariest terrans by FAR are the ones that play passively with an eye towards the late game. The easiest ones to beat are the ones trying to execute one of the myriad of 2 base weird compositions all-ins/"pressure" builds. The problem is that Zerg is very safe in the early game, but that does NOT mean Zerg cannot be aggressive. In fact, a fast 3rd means more aggression capability if Zerg chooses so (more resource, more larva, more roach). 3 CC does not do very well against heavy roach pressure 7-8 min unless T invest heavily into defense, which negates the whole point of 3 CC.
I should point to line's roach bane bust on 3 bases
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On June 22 2012 05:09 Holophonist wrote:
Hey it's 40+ pages in but I'm just gonna quickly throw in my opinion regarding the OP.
I think, as some people have already pointed out that it's still too early to tell. If I may inject some personal bias, terran had been winning for a loonnnnng time, and the fact that they're currently struggling (directly after a pretty significant patch) shouldn't be as much of a cause for concern as everybody is making it out to be. Especially as long as we still see people opening the same way (reactor hellion exp) or somewhere in the middle (1 rax fe into reactor hellion).
I don't agree that the way tvz is supposed to be played is to injure the zerg early on to the point of having enough of an advantage going into the late game to where you feel like you can win. I feel like the 3 CC opener (or something similar) into light pressure primarily geared towards clearing creep is going to be (or should be) the new standard. I mean... you guys do realize that the POINT of the buff was specifically to make zerg more safe in the early game?
I would love to see examples of terran players opening passively/greedily and just setting up for the late game (clearing creep, getting upgrades, making scv's) and then move into consistent aggression to try to trade cost efficiently. I'm thinking specifically of utilizing bio. I'm a low/mid masters zerg and the scariest terrans by FAR are the ones that play passively with an eye towards the late game. The easiest ones to beat are the ones trying to execute one of the myriad of 2 base weird compositions all-ins/"pressure" builds.
yea and ur low master for a reason terrans players have been doing 3cc clean creep mass up since 1 year+ ? this specific playstyle is bad now. its still the best and most solid imo but if z plays right it rolls over and dies
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There is one more problem that T has to deal with right now. With all the queen zergs make the good ones will not only cover the map with creep... they will cover it with creep tumors. I think it becomes a new standard - T scans and moves in a small task force into the creep just to find out that there are 20+ creep tumors within the range of the scan... yeah, I know, build raven LOL 
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On June 22 2012 05:24 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:09 Holophonist wrote:
Hey it's 40+ pages in but I'm just gonna quickly throw in my opinion regarding the OP.
I think, as some people have already pointed out that it's still too early to tell. If I may inject some personal bias, terran had been winning for a loonnnnng time, and the fact that they're currently struggling (directly after a pretty significant patch) shouldn't be as much of a cause for concern as everybody is making it out to be. Especially as long as we still see people opening the same way (reactor hellion exp) or somewhere in the middle (1 rax fe into reactor hellion).
I don't agree that the way tvz is supposed to be played is to injure the zerg early on to the point of having enough of an advantage going into the late game to where you feel like you can win. I feel like the 3 CC opener (or something similar) into light pressure primarily geared towards clearing creep is going to be (or should be) the new standard. I mean... you guys do realize that the POINT of the buff was specifically to make zerg more safe in the early game?
I would love to see examples of terran players opening passively/greedily and just setting up for the late game (clearing creep, getting upgrades, making scv's) and then move into consistent aggression to try to trade cost efficiently. I'm thinking specifically of utilizing bio. I'm a low/mid masters zerg and the scariest terrans by FAR are the ones that play passively with an eye towards the late game. The easiest ones to beat are the ones trying to execute one of the myriad of 2 base weird compositions all-ins/"pressure" builds. yea and ur low master for a reason terrans players have been doing 3cc clean creep mass up since 1 year+ ? this specific playstyle is bad now. its still the best and most solid imo but if z plays right it rolls over and dies
Lol ok. It's funny... it doesn't matter what league you're in, there's always going to be somebody who appeals to authority because they're a few points higher than you. If I had posted last season when I was mid to high masters, would that have made it any more valid? You also didn't comprehend my post. I'm saying I think it should be the new standard. triple cc is not the standard and never has been.
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On June 22 2012 05:35 Holophonist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:24 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 22 2012 05:09 Holophonist wrote:
Hey it's 40+ pages in but I'm just gonna quickly throw in my opinion regarding the OP.
I think, as some people have already pointed out that it's still too early to tell. If I may inject some personal bias, terran had been winning for a loonnnnng time, and the fact that they're currently struggling (directly after a pretty significant patch) shouldn't be as much of a cause for concern as everybody is making it out to be. Especially as long as we still see people opening the same way (reactor hellion exp) or somewhere in the middle (1 rax fe into reactor hellion).
I don't agree that the way tvz is supposed to be played is to injure the zerg early on to the point of having enough of an advantage going into the late game to where you feel like you can win. I feel like the 3 CC opener (or something similar) into light pressure primarily geared towards clearing creep is going to be (or should be) the new standard. I mean... you guys do realize that the POINT of the buff was specifically to make zerg more safe in the early game?
I would love to see examples of terran players opening passively/greedily and just setting up for the late game (clearing creep, getting upgrades, making scv's) and then move into consistent aggression to try to trade cost efficiently. I'm thinking specifically of utilizing bio. I'm a low/mid masters zerg and the scariest terrans by FAR are the ones that play passively with an eye towards the late game. The easiest ones to beat are the ones trying to execute one of the myriad of 2 base weird compositions all-ins/"pressure" builds. yea and ur low master for a reason terrans players have been doing 3cc clean creep mass up since 1 year+ ? this specific playstyle is bad now. its still the best and most solid imo but if z plays right it rolls over and dies Lol ok. It's funny... it doesn't matter what league you're in, there's always going to be somebody who appeals to authority because they're a few points higher than you. If I had posted last season when I was mid to high masters, would that have made it any more valid? You also didn't comprehend my post. I'm saying I think it should be the new standard. triple cc is not the standard and never has been.
It actually is for the past month. It's either BBB or 3CC (and die trying).
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Didn't Artosis think that the 5 queen range was good and SOTG talked about it saying it was fine? Terrans are too scared of creep and 5 range queens. They still tickle helions. You can keep the creep cut back with the helions (by taking little damage) while sniping tumors. Or you can run PAST the queens because zergs go up to 65 drones with no sim city, spines, or lings. Just run past and roast a mineral line. Anyways, Terrans are doing abusive builds thinking that it will work (that is meant to keep zerg on 2 base for a really long period of time) when it just doesnt anymore because you don't run by and kill drones. Trade drones for helions and you're in a good spot. You trade units for economy and zerg has to remake that economy. Just play the game.
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I hope this guy is right because his view of the game is interesting.
On June 22 2012 05:09 Holophonist wrote:
Hey it's 40+ pages in but I'm just gonna quickly throw in my opinion regarding the OP.
I think, as some people have already pointed out that it's still too early to tell. If I may inject some personal bias, terran had been winning for a loonnnnng time, and the fact that they're currently struggling (directly after a pretty significant patch) shouldn't be as much of a cause for concern as everybody is making it out to be. Especially as long as we still see people opening the same way (reactor hellion exp) or somewhere in the middle (1 rax fe into reactor hellion).
I don't agree that the way tvz is supposed to be played is to injure the zerg early on to the point of having enough of an advantage going into the late game to where you feel like you can win. I feel like the 3 CC opener (or something similar) into light pressure primarily geared towards clearing creep is going to be (or should be) the new standard. I mean... you guys do realize that the POINT of the buff was specifically to make zerg more safe in the early game?
I would love to see examples of terran players opening passively/greedily and just setting up for the late game (clearing creep, getting upgrades, making scv's) and then move into consistent aggression to try to trade cost efficiently. I'm thinking specifically of utilizing bio. I'm a low/mid masters zerg and the scariest terrans by FAR are the ones that play passively with an eye towards the late game. The easiest ones to beat are the ones trying to execute one of the myriad of 2 base weird compositions all-ins/"pressure" builds.
That being said, I think the way that Blizzard is balancing the game is interesting. They started with smaller maps, and many of the builds we saw were geared towards early aggression. It's almost as if by staying with such smaller maps for so long Blizzard was able to get a pretty comprehensive view of the early game. It seems to me that as maps increase in size, gradually, Blizzard gets an opportunity to test later stages in the game.
It seems silly to say, but every late game starts with an early game, but not every early game leads to a late game, so it seems a pretty systematic (contradiction in terms?) way to go about it.
Naturally, of course, there will be a lot of controversy and growing pains, and I won't be surprised if the queen changes again. I don't know, though. It is nice having two really great mineral-only units.
I hope Terran players stick it out long enough to figure out a fun way to enjoy this game competitively. I enjoy playing against them on ladder and I'm grateful to have opponents to play against. It's fun trying to get the Zerg machine up and running against a wily oppoment who attacks you when you're vulnerable. It's fun to put overlords and lings all over the map so I have every opportunity to make units at the last possible second, and even more fun when my opponent knows this and makes an effort to pick apart my early warning system. It's fun trying to guess what kind of goofy teching is going on inside those weird Terran bases. I'm terrible at it, but defending against drops is fun too.
Terrans can do a lot of cool stuff. I hope they keep having fun with it.
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EPT
