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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
On June 22 2012 03:29 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 03:29 LgN.EijZrA wrote:
This thread is toxic.
I can see why pros don't post in dumb threads like this. The butthurt is strong in this one. You're not a pro. You're made a couple of really terrible, biased arguments, and now that they've been soundly debunked, you're running away with your tail between your legs.
Based on his comments his understanding of the game is nonexistant. He asked how the queen buff affects past the early game, well when you get a free third at 5 mins building only drones til 80, yes it's effects go beyond the early game. And then saying ghosts counter infestors and vikings counter broodlords is also laughable. Pretty sure this guy is a troll, and just has a fake id with LgN. Either that or zerg just produces the dumbest players considering how over powered it is now.
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heres something that would be funny
make all the terrans play zerg for a day, make all the zergs play terran for a day. have a tournament. zergs playing terran would lose every game lol
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Well, I feel sorry for you, higher league terrans. At lower leagues (gold /platinum), this buff made zergs a lots greedier so standard drop play is more effective ( delayed mutalisk or infestors ), and standard 2 base push is a lot stronger since zerg invests so much in droning 
TvZ is now my best MU
<3 to all zergs
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On June 22 2012 03:37 andropopp wrote:
heres something that would be funny
make all the terrans play zerg for a day, make all the zergs play terran for a day. have a tournament. zergs playing terran would lose every game lol
The last offrace tournament that I remember had all of the "terrans" eliminated in the first round.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/U68N8.jpg)
Ghosts need to be cheaper; maybe along the lines of 150/75.
Since the snipe nerf; almost all ghost openers (save tvp) have dropped off. Also, players shy away from adding ghosts to early mid game comps because they just cost too much. This sorely needs to change as it is a tech path before factory (potentially) that goes almost completely unused.
People forget that queens have energy, and are also considered psionic. Also, mass infestor in the midgame would seem less daunting with a couple of ghosts on the field.
User was warned for this post
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On June 22 2012 03:49 tronix wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
-pic-
Ghosts need to be cheaper; maybe along the lines of 150/75.
Since the snipe nerf; almost all ghost openers (save tvp) have dropped off. Also, players shy away from adding ghosts to early mid game comps because they just cost too much. This sorely needs to change as it is a tech path before factory (potentially) that goes almost completely unused.
People forget that queens have energy, and are also considered psionic. Also, mass infestor in the midgame would seem less daunting with a couple of ghosts on the field.
It's less about the costs and more about the time. You can't really utilize Ghosts without +Energy and Cloak, which takes a long time and costs more than getting a Banshee actually.
Ghosts are also still really powerful vs P so lowering the cost (unless it's 150/150) doesn't seem like the best idea.
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so I'm not a pro or anything like that. But my thoughts on this are, early early game, terran can just expand and punish zerg for making queens and not drones/hatch. Secondly the Terran ghost will still deal full dmg to psionic (queen) with snipe, and EMP the energy for transfuse/creep tumors. I feel this metagame shift should call for terrans going for more ghost count. Just a thought..
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On June 22 2012 03:55 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 03:49 tronix wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
-pic-
Ghosts need to be cheaper; maybe along the lines of 150/75.
Since the snipe nerf; almost all ghost openers (save tvp) have dropped off. Also, players shy away from adding ghosts to early mid game comps because they just cost too much. This sorely needs to change as it is a tech path before factory (potentially) that goes almost completely unused.
People forget that queens have energy, and are also considered psionic. Also, mass infestor in the midgame would seem less daunting with a couple of ghosts on the field. It's less about the costs and more about the time. You can't really utilize Ghosts without +Energy and Cloak, which takes a long time and costs more than getting a Banshee actually. Ghosts are also still really powerful vs P so lowering the cost (unless it's 150/150) doesn't seem like the best idea.
its better to nerf zerg units, because if we follow your route whats gonna happen is the exact same thing as tvp. Terran needs to split marines, snipe/emp with ghosts, position siege tank etc. Meanwhile zerg has to 1 a and fungal. Meaning there will be imbalance all the way up to the tip top level and 99% of terrans will get fucked. The problem will always be with the queen and infestor, they are units that fill too many roles and do too many things.
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4713 Posts
On June 22 2012 04:00 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 03:55 HeroMystic wrote:On June 22 2012 03:49 tronix wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
-pic-
Ghosts need to be cheaper; maybe along the lines of 150/75.
Since the snipe nerf; almost all ghost openers (save tvp) have dropped off. Also, players shy away from adding ghosts to early mid game comps because they just cost too much. This sorely needs to change as it is a tech path before factory (potentially) that goes almost completely unused.
People forget that queens have energy, and are also considered psionic. Also, mass infestor in the midgame would seem less daunting with a couple of ghosts on the field. It's less about the costs and more about the time. You can't really utilize Ghosts without +Energy and Cloak, which takes a long time and costs more than getting a Banshee actually. Ghosts are also still really powerful vs P so lowering the cost (unless it's 150/150) doesn't seem like the best idea. its better to nerf zerg units, because if we follow your route whats gonna happen is the exact same thing as tvp. Terran needs to split marines, snipe/emp with ghosts, position siege tank etc. Meanwhile zerg has to 1 a and fungal. Meaning there will be imbalance all the way up to the tip top level and 99% of terrans will get fucked. The problem will always be with the queen and infestor, they are units that fill too many roles and do too many things.
Yes, I agree with you here. All protoss and zerg units need to be re-worked so they benefit more from micro and multi-tasking, and suck without them, they need to make their units high risk, high reward, just like terran units, that way you don't trade cost effectively unless you control well on both sides.
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Im ok with the queen buff..Its fucking hilarious how some zergs think they own the world now with 2 spines and 3 queens.
Jesus. A zerg decided to double expand on me today without even getting ling speed. This is how greedy they are getting.
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On June 22 2012 03:49 tronix wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
Ghosts need to be cheaper; maybe along the lines of 150/75.
Since the snipe nerf; almost all ghost openers (save tvp) have dropped off. Also, players shy away from adding ghosts to early mid game comps because they just cost too much. This sorely needs to change as it is a tech path before factory (potentially) that goes almost completely unused.
People forget that queens have energy, and are also considered psionic. Also, mass infestor in the midgame would seem less daunting with a couple of ghosts on the field.
ghosts do the dps of a stalker at 200/100 and have spells and cloaking, stalkers are 125/50. both are 2food, but ghosts do double dps to light units and cloaking is a very powerful ability
id say the perfect fix to ghosts is not their cost, but my idea i said last page to make cloak cost no energy, be permanent, and make ghosts gain energy while cloaked. that would revolutionize the matchup and terrans could get 8ghosts dont even need to get the energy upgrade because by the time you move out you are already at200 energy, go onto the map, snipe queens, and then at that point the ghosts probably have near 200energy so they spam snipes on the overseers it would cost more than 100gas in overseers to counter a 100gas ghost, meaning the ghosts win in cost effectiveness
then possible bring along a raven clean up all the tumors while dropping all your mules
the zerg would be forced to go hydras or mutas or something at that point to deal with the raven / ghosts, but that means he spent money in army that could have been spent in drones so the terran effectively puts on economic pressure
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On June 22 2012 04:05 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 04:00 biology]major wrote:On June 22 2012 03:55 HeroMystic wrote:On June 22 2012 03:49 tronix wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
-pic-
Ghosts need to be cheaper; maybe along the lines of 150/75.
Since the snipe nerf; almost all ghost openers (save tvp) have dropped off. Also, players shy away from adding ghosts to early mid game comps because they just cost too much. This sorely needs to change as it is a tech path before factory (potentially) that goes almost completely unused.
People forget that queens have energy, and are also considered psionic. Also, mass infestor in the midgame would seem less daunting with a couple of ghosts on the field. It's less about the costs and more about the time. You can't really utilize Ghosts without +Energy and Cloak, which takes a long time and costs more than getting a Banshee actually. Ghosts are also still really powerful vs P so lowering the cost (unless it's 150/150) doesn't seem like the best idea. its better to nerf zerg units, because if we follow your route whats gonna happen is the exact same thing as tvp. Terran needs to split marines, snipe/emp with ghosts, position siege tank etc. Meanwhile zerg has to 1 a and fungal. Meaning there will be imbalance all the way up to the tip top level and 99% of terrans will get fucked. The problem will always be with the queen and infestor, they are units that fill too many roles and do too many things. Yes, I agree with you here. All protoss and zerg units need to be re-worked so they benefit more from micro and multi-tasking, and suck without them, they need to make their units high risk, high reward, just like terran units, that way you don't trade cost effectively unless you control well on both sides.
Why dont you just make them play terran instead. And btw, look at HOTS units and tell me that they dont require multitasking.
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ghosts are useless, even if they reduce their cost to 50 minerals.
i doubt that blizzard will reverse the queen changes, this will be like admitting a mistake and we all know dustin and dayvie have descended on the gaming world straight outta olympus ( sippin on dat gin&ambrosia etcetc)
hopefully an infestor and ultralisk nerf next patch.
no idea what might work for the PvZ lategame tho, because that is a pain to play as well
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On June 22 2012 04:06 andropopp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 03:49 tronix wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
Ghosts need to be cheaper; maybe along the lines of 150/75.
Since the snipe nerf; almost all ghost openers (save tvp) have dropped off. Also, players shy away from adding ghosts to early mid game comps because they just cost too much. This sorely needs to change as it is a tech path before factory (potentially) that goes almost completely unused.
People forget that queens have energy, and are also considered psionic. Also, mass infestor in the midgame would seem less daunting with a couple of ghosts on the field. ghosts do the dps of a stalker at 200/100 and have spells and cloaking, stalkers are 125/50. both are 2food, but ghosts do double dps to light units and cloaking is a very powerful ability id say the perfect fix to ghosts is not their cost, but my idea i said last page to make cloak cost no energy, be permanent, and make ghosts gain energy while cloaked. that would revolutionize the matchup and terrans could get 8ghosts dont even need to get the energy upgrade because by the time you move out you are already at200 energy, go onto the map, snipe queens, and then at that point the ghosts probably have near 200energy so they spam snipes on the overseers it would cost more than 100gas in overseers to counter a 100gas ghost, meaning the ghosts win in cost effectiveness then possible bring along a raven clean up all the tumors while dropping all your mules the zerg would be forced to go hydras or mutas or something at that point to deal with the raven / ghosts, but that means he spent money in army that could have been spent in drones so the terran effectively puts on economic pressure
Whoooooooa, that's a little much, man.
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On June 22 2012 03:58 Koosalakoopakoop wrote:
so I'm not a pro or anything like that. But my thoughts on this are, early early game, terran can just expand and punish zerg for making queens and not drones/hatch. Secondly the Terran ghost will still deal full dmg to psionic (queen) with snipe, and EMP the energy for transfuse/creep tumors. I feel this metagame shift should call for terrans going for more ghost count. Just a thought..
The problem to first is that Zerg can just pop down a Roach Warren and you are just as, if not more, dead. If you go triple CC you would have heck alot of fun trying to hold off roach/ling.
You can't get ghost fast enough to matter. They are a big investment, more ghost = other stuff just kill you easier since they are terrible against pretty much everything else. Because Ghost is so terrible against everything else (and not even that good against Investors), if Terran have more Ghost than Infester warrants, they just lose straight up battle and be done for. Even if you kill all Infester/BL with Ghost army, Zerg can just tech to switch to Ultra/ling with their superior economy, and you are equally screwed.
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On June 22 2012 04:08 SKYFISH_ wrote:
ghosts are useless, even if they reduce their cost to 50 minerals.
i doubt that blizzard will reverse the queen changes, this will be like admitting a mistake and we all know dustin and dayvie have descended on the gaming world straight outta olympus ( sippin on dat gin&ambrosia etcetc)
hopefully an infestor and ultralisk nerf next patch.
no idea what might work for the PvZ lategame tho, because that is a pain to play as well
They did revert a patch before (Thor energy), because it was "hurting E-sports".
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France9034 Posts
On June 22 2012 04:00 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 03:55 HeroMystic wrote:On June 22 2012 03:49 tronix wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
-pic-
Ghosts need to be cheaper; maybe along the lines of 150/75.
Since the snipe nerf; almost all ghost openers (save tvp) have dropped off. Also, players shy away from adding ghosts to early mid game comps because they just cost too much. This sorely needs to change as it is a tech path before factory (potentially) that goes almost completely unused.
People forget that queens have energy, and are also considered psionic. Also, mass infestor in the midgame would seem less daunting with a couple of ghosts on the field. It's less about the costs and more about the time. You can't really utilize Ghosts without +Energy and Cloak, which takes a long time and costs more than getting a Banshee actually. Ghosts are also still really powerful vs P so lowering the cost (unless it's 150/150) doesn't seem like the best idea. its better to nerf zerg units, because if we follow your route whats gonna happen is the exact same thing as tvp. Terran needs to split marines, snipe/emp with ghosts, position siege tank etc. Meanwhile zerg has to 1 a and fungal. Meaning there will be imbalance all the way up to the tip top level and 99% of terrans will get fucked. The problem will always be with the queen and infestor, they are units that fill too many roles and do too many things.
This part is completely "WTF" ! Zerg have the fastest switches of SC, and they are the ones that have the most versatile units...
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4713 Posts
On June 22 2012 04:07 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 04:05 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 04:00 biology]major wrote:On June 22 2012 03:55 HeroMystic wrote:On June 22 2012 03:49 tronix wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
-pic-
Ghosts need to be cheaper; maybe along the lines of 150/75.
Since the snipe nerf; almost all ghost openers (save tvp) have dropped off. Also, players shy away from adding ghosts to early mid game comps because they just cost too much. This sorely needs to change as it is a tech path before factory (potentially) that goes almost completely unused.
People forget that queens have energy, and are also considered psionic. Also, mass infestor in the midgame would seem less daunting with a couple of ghosts on the field. It's less about the costs and more about the time. You can't really utilize Ghosts without +Energy and Cloak, which takes a long time and costs more than getting a Banshee actually. Ghosts are also still really powerful vs P so lowering the cost (unless it's 150/150) doesn't seem like the best idea. its better to nerf zerg units, because if we follow your route whats gonna happen is the exact same thing as tvp. Terran needs to split marines, snipe/emp with ghosts, position siege tank etc. Meanwhile zerg has to 1 a and fungal. Meaning there will be imbalance all the way up to the tip top level and 99% of terrans will get fucked. The problem will always be with the queen and infestor, they are units that fill too many roles and do too many things. Yes, I agree with you here. All protoss and zerg units need to be re-worked so they benefit more from micro and multi-tasking, and suck without them, they need to make their units high risk, high reward, just like terran units, that way you don't trade cost effectively unless you control well on both sides. Why dont you just make them play terran instead. And btw, look at HOTS units and tell me that they dont require multitasking.
The viper yes, and Hydras with the speed buff will work like marines with stim, you'll be able to stutter step, split, storm dodge etc, so that makes me happy. And the widow mine forces you to split up or isolate the unit with the mine. But everything else is a joke.
Battle Hellions and warhounds look like 1a units, swarm hosts don't require any micro, just massing, oracle is a joke because it is a low risk low reward unit, it goes in quickly, entombs and then runs away and tempest is just ridiculous, 22 range without any setup time, on a flying unit is just broken.
The sad part is, the viper will work like the infestor in that it will force a strong reaction from the other player, but won't require so much input from the zerg. If a viper casts blinding cloud in a area the terran absolutely needs to move out of it, but the zerg spent just 2 clicks to do it and then he a-moves. And the abduct ruins well, thought out and positioned siege lines by sniping a unit in a very cheep way.
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On June 22 2012 04:16 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 04:07 padfoota wrote:On June 22 2012 04:05 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 04:00 biology]major wrote:On June 22 2012 03:55 HeroMystic wrote:On June 22 2012 03:49 tronix wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
-pic-
Ghosts need to be cheaper; maybe along the lines of 150/75.
Since the snipe nerf; almost all ghost openers (save tvp) have dropped off. Also, players shy away from adding ghosts to early mid game comps because they just cost too much. This sorely needs to change as it is a tech path before factory (potentially) that goes almost completely unused.
People forget that queens have energy, and are also considered psionic. Also, mass infestor in the midgame would seem less daunting with a couple of ghosts on the field. It's less about the costs and more about the time. You can't really utilize Ghosts without +Energy and Cloak, which takes a long time and costs more than getting a Banshee actually. Ghosts are also still really powerful vs P so lowering the cost (unless it's 150/150) doesn't seem like the best idea. its better to nerf zerg units, because if we follow your route whats gonna happen is the exact same thing as tvp. Terran needs to split marines, snipe/emp with ghosts, position siege tank etc. Meanwhile zerg has to 1 a and fungal. Meaning there will be imbalance all the way up to the tip top level and 99% of terrans will get fucked. The problem will always be with the queen and infestor, they are units that fill too many roles and do too many things. Yes, I agree with you here. All protoss and zerg units need to be re-worked so they benefit more from micro and multi-tasking, and suck without them, they need to make their units high risk, high reward, just like terran units, that way you don't trade cost effectively unless you control well on both sides. Why dont you just make them play terran instead. And btw, look at HOTS units and tell me that they dont require multitasking. The viper yes, and Hydras with the speed buff will work like marines with stim, you'll be able to stutter step, split, storm dodge etc, so that makes me happy. And the widow mine forces you to split up or isolate the unit with the mine. But everything else is a joke. Battle Hellions and warhounds look like 1a units, swarm hosts don't require any micro, just massing, oracle is a joke because it is a low risk low reward unit, it goes in quickly, entombs and then runs away and tempest is just ridiculous, 22 range without any setup time, on a flying unit is just broken. The sad part is, the viper will work like the infestor in that it will force a strong reaction from the other player, but won't require so much input from the zerg. If a viper casts blinding cloud in a area the terran absolutely needs to move out of it, but the zerg spent just 2 clicks to do it and then he a-moves. And the abduct ruins well, thought out and positioned siege lines by sniping a unit in a very cheep way.
Theorycrafting when the beta is not even out yet?
Some people can be quite funny *sigh*.
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One thing I'd think would work and more enjoyable is make 250mm range 10 and hit air. This way Thor become a very viable counter to BL/Festor and can be backbone to Terran army late game.
This also create a fun battle for TvP, as it would one shot Colo but very weak against Templar (as is right now), might be able to bring some Mech back into TvP.
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EPT
