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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 22 2012 03:15 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 03:11 LgN.EijZrA wrote:On June 22 2012 03:07 Snowbear wrote:On June 22 2012 02:55 LgN.EijZrA wrote:
Explain to me in vivid detail how queen range changed the MU other than the opening.
Can anyone please comment on this? Well the queen range buff is not the cause of this change. The queenbuff made zergs realise that queens are damn awesome. Just like the upgrade buff (protoss) made protoss players realise how awesome their upgrades are. The real problem are army strenghts. Muta ling bling was balanced against tank rine, but infestor + hive is not. It's damn cost efficiënt and it even destroys maxed terran armies. Zerg has the strongest macro mechanic, and this combined with their stronger army, makes them really hard to beat. That's why you see 3 base zergs destroying 3 base terrans in tournaments. But I guess it will take some time before terrans realise this. Atm they really think that it's all the fault of the queenbuff. Meanwhile they are losing 200/200 vs 200/200 battles, and meanwhile they have 0 answer against broodlord infestor corruptor. But hey, it's because of the queen buff!!! Ghosts counter Infestors. Vikings counter Broodlords. Just blew your mind. In theory yes, in reality it all comes down to control, it can go either way. If Infestors get fungals of on your ghosts you can kiss them goodbye as the Broodlords swarm them with broodlings, or the ultralisks cleave them to bits. Also, ghosts are way less effective vs infestors given how huge the buggers are, at least that's the case after the EMP nerf, so you need a big mass of ghosts, and it isn't viable to get a big mass of ghosts any more given how terrible they are against anything else given how severe the snipe nerf was. How about you watch some more GSL before you post stupid shit?
In theory yes, in reality yes. GSL doesn't prove 100% of balance, only for state specific references.
It IS about control, you said it yourself, so how about you get better control? You're saying it as if it's common for Zerg to have Ultra, BL, Infestor, etc. at the same time every game.
If it ever gets to that point it's the Terrans fault. Queens are irrelevant.
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On June 22 2012 03:15 LgN.EijZrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 03:13 Shiori wrote:On June 22 2012 03:10 LgN.EijZrA wrote:On June 22 2012 03:04 BlitzerSC wrote:On June 22 2012 03:03 LgN.EijZrA wrote:On June 22 2012 02:58 BlitzerSC wrote:On June 22 2012 02:55 LgN.EijZrA wrote:
Explain to me in vivid detail how queen range changed the MU other than the opening.
Can anyone please comment on this? The queen doesn't have to move if she wants to shoot to a hellion, it's not a big difference if there are only 2 queens but when you have 6 of them it change the game. Also you don't have to make the choice between units or drones anymore, so zerg just mass drones and it snowball out of control from there. It's not that hard to understand. Before the patch a terran could keep under control the number of workers via hellions but now he can't anymore because of queens. edit: keep in mind that those additional queens can be used to transfuse and spread creeps. I don't understand how that's a "HUGE" impact big enough to lose games over? I'm a Top Master Zerg and I lose to Terran often enough. Yes creep spread is better, I've seen tons of abusive builds to counter that including Raven banshee. Also I don't see why player's don't just go fast 3 CC since they know Zerg is only going to make drones. Yes there are Roach Ling all ins by I've seen a TON of quick siege tank builds hard counter it. I think Terrans need to stop whining and just come up with new openings. Don't forget in BW there were far more severe w/l swings...FAR MORE SEVERE! You don't see how massing drones and queens in early game doesn't change a game ? Sorry but you are not a master zerg. Also the idea of trying to keep up with zerg in economy without harassment is one of the dumbest thing i've ever heard LOL. But hey, you are a HIGH MASTER zerg so you must know the stuff you are talking about lmao. Yes I am indeed High Master. Did you not see what PuMa did to the Zergs in MLG? Even if a Zerg is massing queens you can still out micro them early on and just run through. See GSL Ro.32 When MKP simply beat Yugioh with early hellions. And yet Puma still got 2-0d by Leenock, who went 0-4 in Code S. And lost to DRG. Yeah, next TvZ saviour, for sure. MKP on TvZ: Q: How do you feel about the recent state of TvZ? A: It's the most unbalanced match-up in history, before the patch (my) TvZ win-rate was around 60%, now it's plummeted to 10%. I'm really lost, why did this happen, I've studied alot of counter zerg strategies, and I haven't found any solutions yet. In hindsight it's (strategies) all like that game on metropolis, playing to the late-game and setting up the prefect defense all around, it's kind of a solution with out a solution. I I've watched alot of zergs that do well on ladder's records, alot of people basically haven't lost to Terran in a whole week. It's basically impossible for a terran with the same skill level as the zerg to win. Unless you all-in, or the opponent's psyche collapses, or your luck is just too good, it's hard to win. Even in practice I don't want to play TvZ, I always lose. Yeah that Leenock kid whose ZvTs' his best MU. Yeah that kid that WON MLG over MvP when MVP was winning everything. Pshh that kid sucks. Right?
I just wanna point that in the same tournament when Leenock 2-0 MvP, MvP barely won against Haypro with a score of 2-1. In fact that last game was so close Haypro could have had it serveral times.
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On June 22 2012 03:17 LgN.EijZrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 03:15 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 03:11 LgN.EijZrA wrote:On June 22 2012 03:07 Snowbear wrote:On June 22 2012 02:55 LgN.EijZrA wrote:
Explain to me in vivid detail how queen range changed the MU other than the opening.
Can anyone please comment on this? Well the queen range buff is not the cause of this change. The queenbuff made zergs realise that queens are damn awesome. Just like the upgrade buff (protoss) made protoss players realise how awesome their upgrades are. The real problem are army strenghts. Muta ling bling was balanced against tank rine, but infestor + hive is not. It's damn cost efficiënt and it even destroys maxed terran armies. Zerg has the strongest macro mechanic, and this combined with their stronger army, makes them really hard to beat. That's why you see 3 base zergs destroying 3 base terrans in tournaments. But I guess it will take some time before terrans realise this. Atm they really think that it's all the fault of the queenbuff. Meanwhile they are losing 200/200 vs 200/200 battles, and meanwhile they have 0 answer against broodlord infestor corruptor. But hey, it's because of the queen buff!!! Ghosts counter Infestors. Vikings counter Broodlords. Just blew your mind. In theory yes, in reality it all comes down to control, it can go either way. If Infestors get fungals of on your ghosts you can kiss them goodbye as the Broodlords swarm them with broodlings, or the ultralisks cleave them to bits. Also, ghosts are way less effective vs infestors given how huge the buggers are, at least that's the case after the EMP nerf, so you need a big mass of ghosts, and it isn't viable to get a big mass of ghosts any more given how terrible they are against anything else given how severe the snipe nerf was. How about you watch some more GSL before you post stupid shit? In theory yes, in reality yes. GSL doesn't prove 100% of balance, only for state specific references. It IS about control, you said it yourself, so how about you get better control? You're saying it as if it's common for Zerg to have Ultra, BL, Infestor, etc. at the same time every game. If it ever gets to that point it's the Terrans fault. Queens are irrelevant.
Lol, "don't let him get there!"
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4713 Posts
On June 22 2012 03:15 LgN.EijZrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 03:13 Shiori wrote:On June 22 2012 03:10 LgN.EijZrA wrote:On June 22 2012 03:04 BlitzerSC wrote:On June 22 2012 03:03 LgN.EijZrA wrote:On June 22 2012 02:58 BlitzerSC wrote:On June 22 2012 02:55 LgN.EijZrA wrote:
Explain to me in vivid detail how queen range changed the MU other than the opening.
Can anyone please comment on this? The queen doesn't have to move if she wants to shoot to a hellion, it's not a big difference if there are only 2 queens but when you have 6 of them it change the game. Also you don't have to make the choice between units or drones anymore, so zerg just mass drones and it snowball out of control from there. It's not that hard to understand. Before the patch a terran could keep under control the number of workers via hellions but now he can't anymore because of queens. edit: keep in mind that those additional queens can be used to transfuse and spread creeps. I don't understand how that's a "HUGE" impact big enough to lose games over? I'm a Top Master Zerg and I lose to Terran often enough. Yes creep spread is better, I've seen tons of abusive builds to counter that including Raven banshee. Also I don't see why player's don't just go fast 3 CC since they know Zerg is only going to make drones. Yes there are Roach Ling all ins by I've seen a TON of quick siege tank builds hard counter it. I think Terrans need to stop whining and just come up with new openings. Don't forget in BW there were far more severe w/l swings...FAR MORE SEVERE! You don't see how massing drones and queens in early game doesn't change a game ? Sorry but you are not a master zerg. Also the idea of trying to keep up with zerg in economy without harassment is one of the dumbest thing i've ever heard LOL. But hey, you are a HIGH MASTER zerg so you must know the stuff you are talking about lmao. Yes I am indeed High Master. Did you not see what PuMa did to the Zergs in MLG? Even if a Zerg is massing queens you can still out micro them early on and just run through. See GSL Ro.32 When MKP simply beat Yugioh with early hellions. And yet Puma still got 2-0d by Leenock, who went 0-4 in Code S. And lost to DRG. Yeah, next TvZ saviour, for sure. MKP on TvZ: Q: How do you feel about the recent state of TvZ? A: It's the most unbalanced match-up in history, before the patch (my) TvZ win-rate was around 60%, now it's plummeted to 10%. I'm really lost, why did this happen, I've studied alot of counter zerg strategies, and I haven't found any solutions yet. In hindsight it's (strategies) all like that game on metropolis, playing to the late-game and setting up the prefect defense all around, it's kind of a solution with out a solution. I I've watched alot of zergs that do well on ladder's records, alot of people basically haven't lost to Terran in a whole week. It's basically impossible for a terran with the same skill level as the zerg to win. Unless you all-in, or the opponent's psyche collapses, or your luck is just too good, it's hard to win. Even in practice I don't want to play TvZ, I always lose. Yeah that Leenock kid whose ZvTs' his best MU. Yeah that kid that WON MLG over MvP when MVP was winning everything. Pshh that kid sucks. Right?
I don't want to detract from Leenocks previous achievements because he was really good, but in today's games he was just a shadow of his former self, he wasn't the Leenock we are used to seeing, he played, way, way bellow his level. The difference between Leenock's current form and his old one is like the difference between Top 1 GM and Top 1 Diamond.
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On June 22 2012 02:31 CounterOrder wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 18:58 scypio wrote:On June 21 2012 18:29 Tryagain4free wrote:On June 21 2012 18:16 -Archangel- wrote:
Just yesterday on Ret stream he played Lucifron who managed to get into his main with 3-4 helions and roast some drones. Ret depended on 3 queens and not spines for defense. So I guess mass queens are not as good as some people think. Isn't it a bit misleading to talk about one game of Ret, who is known to be the greediest Zerg out there. And furthermore, how about giving some details? How many drones did he lose? Did Lucifron loose any of his hellions? This is so cool! Lucifron invests 150/100 into fact, 50/50 for a reactor and another 400 to get 4 hellions out. Boom! 600/200 spent to pressure the Zerg. In the meantime Ret spends 150 minerals to get an extra queen (or even 450, if he actually got 3 extra queens to go up to 5)... So Lucifron commits either 2x or 5x the resources on offense then Ret on defense and manages to roast some drones... how imbalanced! Uh, the factory doesnt become useless after 4 hellions are built, same for reactor. Those hellions also force Zerg to build things he otherwise wouldnt have at the time. Way to let the whole situation fly over your head.
You can spend your minerals either to improve your eco or build up your army. 4 helions + factory + reactor = 600 / 200 army-bound resources = two command centers that were not built.
Yeah, the factory does not become useless, but at a certain moment in game (i.e. 5-6 minutes) it's just how it is. The T spent 600/200 to get 4 helions, Z spent 150-300 to get one or two extra queens and defends with little to no effort.
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I don't understand how zergs are arguing the patch is fine when it's a unnecesary buff. It would be like if Planetary Fortresses got +1 range from a patch and even though it's unnecessary, Terrans start arguing that this is how it should be just because they have gotten a taste of it. TvZ was fine before the patch, the better player would usually win. Very rarely did a pro lose hard to an obviously lesser player in the matchup, especially in the GSL, which is what everyone likes to use as a stat. I don't understand how arguments can be made for the only macro unit in the game to also be able to deflect all early pressure as well as spread creep and be a viable support unit late game.
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On June 22 2012 03:17 LgN.EijZrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 03:15 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 03:11 LgN.EijZrA wrote:On June 22 2012 03:07 Snowbear wrote:On June 22 2012 02:55 LgN.EijZrA wrote:
Explain to me in vivid detail how queen range changed the MU other than the opening.
Can anyone please comment on this? Well the queen range buff is not the cause of this change. The queenbuff made zergs realise that queens are damn awesome. Just like the upgrade buff (protoss) made protoss players realise how awesome their upgrades are. The real problem are army strenghts. Muta ling bling was balanced against tank rine, but infestor + hive is not. It's damn cost efficiënt and it even destroys maxed terran armies. Zerg has the strongest macro mechanic, and this combined with their stronger army, makes them really hard to beat. That's why you see 3 base zergs destroying 3 base terrans in tournaments. But I guess it will take some time before terrans realise this. Atm they really think that it's all the fault of the queenbuff. Meanwhile they are losing 200/200 vs 200/200 battles, and meanwhile they have 0 answer against broodlord infestor corruptor. But hey, it's because of the queen buff!!! Ghosts counter Infestors. Vikings counter Broodlords. Just blew your mind. In theory yes, in reality it all comes down to control, it can go either way. If Infestors get fungals of on your ghosts you can kiss them goodbye as the Broodlords swarm them with broodlings, or the ultralisks cleave them to bits. Also, ghosts are way less effective vs infestors given how huge the buggers are, at least that's the case after the EMP nerf, so you need a big mass of ghosts, and it isn't viable to get a big mass of ghosts any more given how terrible they are against anything else given how severe the snipe nerf was. How about you watch some more GSL before you post stupid shit? In theory yes, in reality yes. GSL doesn't prove 100% of balance, only for state specific references. It IS about control, you said it yourself, so how about you get better control? You're saying it as if it's common for Zerg to have Ultra, BL, Infestor, etc. at the same time every game. If it ever gets to that point it's the Terrans fault. Queens are irrelevant.
Um...
Queens are what let the Zerg get there, you know? Saying they are irrelevant is rather silly.
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On June 22 2012 02:47 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 02:35 ragz_gt wrote:On June 22 2012 02:29 RavenLoud wrote:
Why don't we make a custom map with with 3 larvas per inject instead of 4? Test things out a bit instead of complaining. Blizzard won't hear you here anyway. That would make PvZ REALLY imba... basically there is no way to survive a 2 base push. Changes to BL/Festor, which both Z and P have problem with, and P's counter to (archon toilet) is just too gimmicky make some sense on the surface. Though my personal pref is revert the Ghost nerf. I think the queen buff is a very sensible counter to mass ghost strategy, and make ZvZ much more enjoyable, but it should come in place of Ghost nerf rather than after it. Yeah you're right. I honestly think snipe was overnerfed. It can't even kill a zergling nor a baneling now (and there was a challenge in Blizzard's Masters map that used snipe against them..lol). We should try changing snipe to 35 (50 vs. psionic).
I think Terran need 1 unit that can handle both Ultra and BL reasonably well. Currently when Terran commit to one, Zerg just switch to the other and complete overruns Terran. If ghost at least not embarrass themselves against Ultra composition, it would be very viable. Same with Thor (or BC), but problem there is more of a mobility than anything else.
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On June 22 2012 03:17 LgN.EijZrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 03:15 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 03:11 LgN.EijZrA wrote:On June 22 2012 03:07 Snowbear wrote:On June 22 2012 02:55 LgN.EijZrA wrote:
Explain to me in vivid detail how queen range changed the MU other than the opening.
Can anyone please comment on this? Well the queen range buff is not the cause of this change. The queenbuff made zergs realise that queens are damn awesome. Just like the upgrade buff (protoss) made protoss players realise how awesome their upgrades are. The real problem are army strenghts. Muta ling bling was balanced against tank rine, but infestor + hive is not. It's damn cost efficiënt and it even destroys maxed terran armies. Zerg has the strongest macro mechanic, and this combined with their stronger army, makes them really hard to beat. That's why you see 3 base zergs destroying 3 base terrans in tournaments. But I guess it will take some time before terrans realise this. Atm they really think that it's all the fault of the queenbuff. Meanwhile they are losing 200/200 vs 200/200 battles, and meanwhile they have 0 answer against broodlord infestor corruptor. But hey, it's because of the queen buff!!! Ghosts counter Infestors. Vikings counter Broodlords. Just blew your mind. In theory yes, in reality it all comes down to control, it can go either way. If Infestors get fungals of on your ghosts you can kiss them goodbye as the Broodlords swarm them with broodlings, or the ultralisks cleave them to bits. Also, ghosts are way less effective vs infestors given how huge the buggers are, at least that's the case after the EMP nerf, so you need a big mass of ghosts, and it isn't viable to get a big mass of ghosts any more given how terrible they are against anything else given how severe the snipe nerf was. How about you watch some more GSL before you post stupid shit? In theory yes, in reality yes. GSL doesn't prove 100% of balance, only for state specific references. It IS about control, you said it yourself, so how about you get better control? You're saying it as if it's common for Zerg to have Ultra, BL, Infestor, etc. at the same time every game. If it ever gets to that point it's the Terrans fault. Queens are irrelevant.
In order to proof that the late-game is balanced you need to justify that :
1). There's a realistic and safe transition into this army as a teran.
2). This army effectively beats corruptors/broodlords/infestors.
I actually reject both your points.
1 you can't transition into mass vikings/ghosts because it's too many minerals invested into units which are weak against everything else (and god knows Zerg can easily tech-switch with a late-game eco), and cutting down marines/tanks means insta-losing to a Zergling/roaches/ultra remax.
2 you can't beat a properly controlled army of broodlords/corruptors/infestors.
Because corruptors destroy vikings, broodlords/infestors fungals and kill ghosts.
So even supposing the Zerg is dumb and keep massing infestors/broodlords/corruptors, he will win if he microes correctly.
This is why pro players who transition into vikings/ghosts never makes more than a few.
Having over 10 vikings is unnecessary because they will always die to a fleet of corruptors+fungals+it no matter what.
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On June 22 2012 03:07 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 02:55 LgN.EijZrA wrote:
Explain to me in vivid detail how queen range changed the MU other than the opening.
Can anyone please comment on this? Well the queen range buff is not the cause of this change. The queenbuff made zergs realise that queens are damn awesome. Just like the upgrade buff (protoss) made protoss players realise how awesome their upgrades are. The real problem are army strenghts. Muta ling bling was balanced against tank rine, but infestor + hive is not. It's damn cost efficiënt and it even destroys maxed terran armies. Zerg has the strongest macro mechanic, and this combined with their stronger army, makes them really hard to beat. That's why you see 3 base zergs destroying 3 base terrans in tournaments. But I guess it will take some time before terrans realise this. Atm they really think that it's all the fault of the queenbuff. Meanwhile they are losing 200/200 vs 200/200 battles, and meanwhile they have 0 answer against broodlord infestor corruptor. But hey, it's because of the queen buff!!!
The Queen change makes it faster and saver to get this cost effective army out. Queens with range 5 are far far better at fighting then range 3 queens. A early save 3rd with just queens and reactive lings as army was far less possible with 3 rage queens but 5 range makes that quite save. On creep Queens are now better at gtg combat then roaches, and they have all the advantages they already had.
Its not that hard to come up with this conclusions. The queen change is a huge overall zerg buff and effects all stages of zvt especially in combination with better overlord scouting.
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On June 22 2012 03:17 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 03:07 Snowbear wrote:On June 22 2012 02:55 LgN.EijZrA wrote:
Explain to me in vivid detail how queen range changed the MU other than the opening.
Can anyone please comment on this? Well the queen range buff is not the cause of this change. The queenbuff made zergs realise that queens are damn awesome. Just like the upgrade buff (protoss) made protoss players realise how awesome their upgrades are. The real problem are army strenghts. Muta ling bling was balanced against tank rine, but infestor + hive is not. It's damn cost efficiënt and it even destroys maxed terran armies. Zerg has the strongest macro mechanic, and this combined with their stronger army, makes them really hard to beat. That's why you see 3 base zergs destroying 3 base terrans in tournaments. But I guess it will take some time before terrans realise this. Atm they really think that it's all the fault of the queenbuff. Meanwhile they are losing 200/200 vs 200/200 battles, and meanwhile they have 0 answer against broodlord infestor corruptor. But hey, it's because of the queen buff!!! Well terrans could still beats zergs by relying on constant pressure. With the queen buff they are cost effective against any early attack, get a free third base and the creep reaching the terran base at 13 minutes has become standard. You can't really say it just changed the opening of the match-up when it has such huge implications in the economy and map control zergs get. Its a layered problem and what you said about the maxed armies is true, but its the queen buff that really tipped the scales.
Before the queenbuff zergs could go 3 queen, make a greedy third, and by the time you had enough hellions, 3-4 roaches popped out, and he was completely safe.
Queens actually SUCK against an early attack. Marauders eat them alive. Zergs can do the exact same thing without the queenbuff. The problem is that almost no one knew, since 99% of the zergs never went for that greedy third.
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Brazil142 Posts
Every1 in this thread is high master/gm. =O
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On June 22 2012 03:22 bLo0d wrote:
I don't understand how zergs are arguing the patch is fine when it's a unnecesary buff. It would be like if Planetary Fortresses got +1 range from a patch and even though it's unnecessary, Terrans start arguing that this is how it should be just because they have gotten a taste of it. TvZ was fine before the patch, the better player would usually win. Very rarely did a pro lose hard to an obviously lesser player in the matchup, especially in the GSL, which is what everyone likes to use as a stat. I don't understand how arguments can be made for the only macro unit in the game to also be able to deflect all early pressure as well as spread creep and be a viable support unit late game.
worse is that bl infestor was too strong for a long, long time (even idra had been saying since the ghost nerf that terran lategame is trash unless mass raven turtle etc which has a lot of flaws) and zergs like drg and curious were starting to figure out how to be as greedy as possible early while getting creep and being safe. and guess what the winrates were already in favor of zerg !
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4713 Posts
On June 22 2012 03:17 LgN.EijZrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 03:15 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 03:11 LgN.EijZrA wrote:On June 22 2012 03:07 Snowbear wrote:On June 22 2012 02:55 LgN.EijZrA wrote:
Explain to me in vivid detail how queen range changed the MU other than the opening.
Can anyone please comment on this? Well the queen range buff is not the cause of this change. The queenbuff made zergs realise that queens are damn awesome. Just like the upgrade buff (protoss) made protoss players realise how awesome their upgrades are. The real problem are army strenghts. Muta ling bling was balanced against tank rine, but infestor + hive is not. It's damn cost efficiënt and it even destroys maxed terran armies. Zerg has the strongest macro mechanic, and this combined with their stronger army, makes them really hard to beat. That's why you see 3 base zergs destroying 3 base terrans in tournaments. But I guess it will take some time before terrans realise this. Atm they really think that it's all the fault of the queenbuff. Meanwhile they are losing 200/200 vs 200/200 battles, and meanwhile they have 0 answer against broodlord infestor corruptor. But hey, it's because of the queen buff!!! Ghosts counter Infestors. Vikings counter Broodlords. Just blew your mind. In theory yes, in reality it all comes down to control, it can go either way. If Infestors get fungals of on your ghosts you can kiss them goodbye as the Broodlords swarm them with broodlings, or the ultralisks cleave them to bits. Also, ghosts are way less effective vs infestors given how huge the buggers are, at least that's the case after the EMP nerf, so you need a big mass of ghosts, and it isn't viable to get a big mass of ghosts any more given how terrible they are against anything else given how severe the snipe nerf was. How about you watch some more GSL before you post stupid shit? In theory yes, in reality yes. GSL doesn't prove 100% of balance, only for state specific references. It IS about control, you said it yourself, so how about you get better control? You're saying it as if it's common for Zerg to have Ultra, BL, Infestor, etc. at the same time every game. If it ever gets to that point it's the Terrans fault. Queens are irrelevant.
How is it balanced if a player is supposed to insert more effort then the other to win?
A strategy is balanced if the effort that went into executing it is equal or near equal to the effort the other player needs to insert into his strategy to counter it.
No it isn't the terran's fault if the zerg reaches late game, because terran can't prevent it any more in the first place. The zerg can drone safely behind his 6 queens on 3 bases, then get his gasses and tech up incredibly fast, and then punish any move out from the terran.
Also, even if the terran still could prevent the zerg from reaching late game, it is still stupid design for the game to be like that, asymmetric design means different but equal opportunities for all races trough out the duration of the game. But what it means in SC2 is, terran is "good" in the early and mid, but once you reach late game you are dead.
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On June 22 2012 03:17 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 03:11 LgN.EijZrA wrote:On June 22 2012 03:07 Snowbear wrote:On June 22 2012 02:55 LgN.EijZrA wrote:
Explain to me in vivid detail how queen range changed the MU other than the opening.
Can anyone please comment on this? Well the queen range buff is not the cause of this change. The queenbuff made zergs realise that queens are damn awesome. Just like the upgrade buff (protoss) made protoss players realise how awesome their upgrades are. The real problem are army strenghts. Muta ling bling was balanced against tank rine, but infestor + hive is not. It's damn cost efficiënt and it even destroys maxed terran armies. Zerg has the strongest macro mechanic, and this combined with their stronger army, makes them really hard to beat. That's why you see 3 base zergs destroying 3 base terrans in tournaments. But I guess it will take some time before terrans realise this. Atm they really think that it's all the fault of the queenbuff. Meanwhile they are losing 200/200 vs 200/200 battles, and meanwhile they have 0 answer against broodlord infestor corruptor. But hey, it's because of the queen buff!!! Ghosts counter Infestors. Vikings counter Broodlords. Just blew your mind. the fact that stupid players like yourself can get a decent ladder rating is the proof zerg is absurdly overpowered. like you dont even realise the players u beat are better than you. to quote Ryung: even na ladder zergs are unbeatable, they all feel like stephano. what the hell are those posts seriously. every single terran goes 3cc nowadays, hellion banshee is th emost common opening. im starting to believe u did get ur account leveled, that or na ladder is even worse than what i thought/knew
You know, the bolded makes me kinda sad. ._.;
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I think the perfect fix to this queen buff is to make ghost cloaks permanent, not use energy, and ghosts still gain energy while cloaked
then ghosts would become a great counter to these queen openings. get 8 ghosts, they are permacloaked, run into the map spam snipe killing all the queens and at that point the ghosts probably have near 200energy so they spam snipes on the overseers it would cost more than 100gas in overseers to counter a 100gas ghost, meaning the ghosts win in cost effectiveness
then possible bring along a raven clean up all the tumors while dropping all your mules
the zerg would be forced to go hydras or something at that point to deal with the raven, but that means he spent money in army that could have been spent in drones so the terran effectively puts on economic pressure
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This thread is toxic.
I can see why pros don't post in dumb threads like this. The butthurt is strong in this one.
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On June 21 2012 22:43 HellionDrop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 22:08 Naphal wrote:
It's basically impossible for a terran with the same skill level as the zerg to win.
100% agreed, and for casuals, it is the same with protoss, that is how terran got pushed down on ladder and has the lowest representation in all leagues except silver and bronze, because that is kinda where you end up...
i consider MVP the best player of sc2, when he says "mech does not work in TvP" artosis comments become a running joke.
and now MKP and even DRG speak up against the current situation? seems this discussion is over apart from the few butthurt casual ladderjoes trying to justify their recent successes...
at least i was not bragging when i did only cloaked banshees 1 month after release <.< and now i should go back to bansheecheese? not to win no, to remove creep? with a raven? a BCrush costs the same you know? and is way cooler...
lmao, be real. even assuming that terran is harder to play, the difference won't be that big. just go play another race and see how far you can get. most people just like to make excuse for their shortcomings, i understand that balance can affect your play, but the likelihood that a brozne terran is a master in another race is small. being a terran player myself, i don't like so many nerfs, too, but many people just aren't that good.
I could already defeat terrans my skill level when I tried off racing zerg for the first time because I knew how the matchup worked, and once I had the larva injects down my zerg was probably better than my terran. This was at high platinum level for what it's worth, back in the day when close position metalopolis and xel naga caverns existed. I tried off race battling vs a friend of mine who mained zerg. I beat his terran with my zerg 8/10 times, with him being a league above mine. Pretty subjective info, but I did find zerg easier to play at that level.
On June 21 2012 23:19 FakeDeath wrote:
Rerember amulet removal?People were saying toss cannot win anymore and the game was broken?
Rerember ghost EMP radius nerf? People were saying EMP won't be good anymore when the fact is pre-nerf ghost blanket EMP can dish out more than 1000k dmg to a toss army.
People always cry imbalance after a nerf or buff.
The Korean Terrans will find a solution soon enough.
Amulet removal was broken by design, and justified by any objective measure. I welcomed the EMP radius nerf, but you have to take into consideration that the majority of the lategame TvP problems that people are having now started around that time, which means that maybe the EMP nerf radius was to much, and terrans haven't adjusted still.
Terrans still haven't adjusted to the ghost snipe nerf in TvZ either in case you thought that people adapt to everything. Terrans have been all-inning more against both P and Z since those two patches.
On June 21 2012 23:32 FairForever wrote:It makes me laugh. When TvP was ridiculous with 1-1-1 for a month, Terrans: "L2P" Now when TvP and TvZ are a bit of a struggle for a month, Terrans: "OMG IMBA!" Balance whine is ridiculous, it was ridiculous when Zergs were struggling ZvT and it was ridiculous when Protoss complained about 1-1-1. It's just as ridiculous now.
Terrans are only struggling because Blizzard keeps shoving shitty patches down everyones throat. Even the zergs are agreeing that the queen buff was overdone. That's how much of an impact it has had. It's on the level of 5 rax reaper retarded since it's the one thing before that time that people across races have agreed on being overpowered.
On June 22 2012 01:38 superstartran wrote:
HT WERE obsolete, they nerfed HT without nerfing the radius on EMP, which made them absolutely awful. HT usage didn't start becoming viable again until AFTER the EMP nerf.
Fungal Growth buff absolutely murdered Terran/Protoss to the point you could just make pure Infestors and roll over anyone.
People complained because they had legitimate complaints. HT nerf was met with an EMP nerf, which made the interactions between HT/Ghosts much more fair. Fungal Growth got nerfed so now FG doesn't murder mechanical units so badly.
Protoss were playing the game wrong at that point tho. EMP might have been doing too much damage, but none of the protosses defended their HTs, spread them or trickled them in after the battle had begun at all the way they do now. They had everything in a massive clump that was easy to scan and EMP.
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On June 22 2012 03:29 LgN.EijZrA wrote:
This thread is toxic.
I can see why pros don't post in dumb threads like this. The butthurt is strong in this one.
You're not a pro. You're made a couple of really terrible, biased arguments, and now that they've been soundly debunked, you're running away with your tail between your legs.
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On June 22 2012 03:29 LgN.EijZrA wrote:
This thread is toxic.
I can see why pros don't post in dumb threads like this. The butthurt is strong in this one.
Many terran pros have commented in this thread how ridiculous the buff is.
The only thing toxic here is you.
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EPT
