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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
On June 22 2012 06:03 camilocraft wrote:
Why nobody think that the actual OP factor is creep itself, i remember that peoples complains about observer for be map hacking, but creep its to powerfull, not only it gives you vision, and more speed, its also free. (well almost free)
The thing I really hate is that the creep get to the enemies base, neither I understand why it retires that slow. I have seeing latelly a lot of Terran scaning a destroying a lot of tumors for what? in 1 minute the creep will go back because that thing simple doesn't retire
The problem before is that nobody see that because zerg simply cannot expand the creep to all over the map, was contained near their bases like it should be but now with the Queen change
Could somebody with more experience talk about it, I could be completly wrong but I want to understand
Isnt creep alone just too powerfull
I agree with you. Even tho I'd not say creep is too powerful by itself. Creep is too powerful if you can creep the whole map with impunity. If you have to "fight" for your creep, like prepatch, it's not too powerful because the zerg has earned this advantage with his own abilities (it builds slower because terran can do something about it, so if the zerg still manage to spread a lot of creep, he deserves the advantage).
Seal was renowned for his glorious creepspread. All zergs are Seal now. Tune in at 15mn of any TvZ, the map will be purple. In that case the creep is too powerful.
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On June 22 2012 02:55 LgN.EijZrA wrote:
Explain to me in vivid detail how queen range changed the MU other than the opening.
Can anyone please comment on this?
Queen doesnt cost larvae. Queen defend all early game aggression. Thus every zerg has more drones in the midgame and in turn a bigger economy and army size. queens shouldnt be able to defend EVERYTHING without drawback.
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Seeing as Terrans are doing fine in Code S so far I'm not too worried. People just need to settle on new builds as reactor hellion was the standard for like over a year.
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On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably.
That still doesn't solve the core problem.
This "do damage early or die in the late game" is something that is inherently imbalanced. It justifies Terrans having proportionately strong early and mid game timings yet at the same time is a complete justification for Terran tier 3 being next to useless in TvZ and TvP.
The changes that have been made to Protoss and Zerg over the last few patches have all addressed their issues of reaching the late game, now it's much safer and easier for them to reach their late game units they build towards all game. Meanwhile Terrans reach their peak combat effectiveness in the mid game.
Ravens, Battlecruisers and Thors are just not anywhere near as useful as what the other races have available at the same tech level. Terrans can't build towards a superior army composition in the late game, because their midgame army composition of heavy bio, or heavy bio with siege tanks is the most effective army composition Terrans can field.
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On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably.
ok theres a few builds like that u can do but what do u do if zerg scouts ur 2ports ? like its like saying hey look zergs builds queens and like to be really greedy, i can build 2factory with reactor after expanding and making 16 hellions before moving out. the hellions are used to kill everything and then u can transition easily into both bio or mech. like seriously its about the same
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On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably.
What if the zerg makes corruptors and uses ultralisks to drop into your base? What you just said is beyond theory and it doesen't work simply. Surely someone would have tried it? Like Kas? Or all the other terrans getting their asses handed to them.
The flaws I see with banshee+raven is 1 infestor will wreck it, with queen support I believe. Or he just see what you are doing and counters you with all hes got while your banshees are in the middle of the map / at his base.
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On June 22 2012 06:15 SyrZulu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 02:55 LgN.EijZrA wrote:
Explain to me in vivid detail how queen range changed the MU other than the opening.
Can anyone please comment on this? Queen doesnt cost larvae. Queen defend all early game aggression. Thus every zerg has more drones in the midgame and in turn a bigger economy and army size. queens shouldnt be able to defend EVERYTHING without drawback.
He said "vivid detail" for a reason. As in, the queen buff didn't change banshee play, it didn't change mass hellion play. The only thing it directly affected being able to repel small numbers of hellions (4 - 6) to start your creep a minute or 2 earlier..
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On June 22 2012 06:07 Holophonist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:58 scypio wrote:On June 22 2012 05:47 Holophonist wrote:
I didn't say when you clean up creep. I'm merely saying that if there's too much creep to attack, don't attack. clean up the creep and go home. I see so many (and play so many) zvts where terrans still TRY to be aggressive, and then cry when it doesn't work. It's not SUPPOSED to work anymore, that was the point of the buff.
Go home and do what exactly? Buld a couple of thors? Two BCs? Or maybe a bunch of ravens? It is official statement from Blizzard: T has to do early/mid game damage to have a shot at the lategame. And clearing out a couple of tumors will not do the trick. This kind of discussion really isn't helpful at all. The things you have to do to win this game (particularly the later in the game we're talking about), really can't be written out well enough to fully describe the situation. I'm not going to sit here and theory craft with you, as that really doesn't get anybody anywhere. Who would've thought that roaches (even roach drops for heavens sake!) could be a viable counter to stargate play in zvp. You don't think it's feasible to get 3 CC's, start 1/1, get medivacs out and begin to apply pressure using bio? Your first push may get crushed, at the expense of a considerable amount of gas, but bio play on 3 bases can be sustained for a LONG time, giving you a ton of time to trade cost efficiently and while expanding behind it. The point: have some humility and please realize that it may take more than a month for terran to come up with a new playstyle. Do you think it was good for the game to have hellions just plainly parked outside of the zerg natural, denying all creep/ling scouts until speed was done or until you got mutas out? That wasn't good for the game either.
Game was perfectly fine before the patch. The period before speedlings, roaches, or mutas were out to push back hellions was Terran's period of map control. After hellions are gone, Zerg has map control with muta and can drone up their third while denying the third of terran. Terrans rarely left their base except possibly with a few drops until they stabilized defenses from muta. On both ends, hellion control and muta control rewarded the player with extended periods of map control. As is, unit control is almost nonexistant in the early game, no amount of hellion control would break through 4 queens, while zerg just has to transfuse. Not only is it broken, it also is very boring. The micro dynamic of the early - mid game with hellions and muta harrass is gone.
Also going mutas gave Terran a chance to do damage before a full Hive tech tree was completed. As is, Hive tech at 15 minutes is just the standard and Terran aren't given any time to breathe. With mutas, Zerg had to do some damage to terran and keep him contained long enough to make the mutas worth it, which the best players were able to do. It was a back and forth of defensive vs offensive play. Now, all the burden is on terran all the time. Zerg just deflects attacks as it takes an uninterrupted tech path to Ultra/Brood infestor.
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On June 22 2012 06:13 Holophonist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. Far too constructive and cool-headed for a balance discussion......
Yeah, and especially advising to make banshees when the problem is mass queens openings, really sensible. His proposition doesn't make any sense, and if you were constructive and unbiased as you said, you would have recognized it as it is.
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On June 22 2012 06:16 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. ok theres a few builds like that u can do but what do u do if zerg scouts ur 2ports ? like its like saying hey look zergs builds queens and like to be really greedy, i can build 2factory with reactor after expanding and making 16 hellions before moving out. the hellions are used to kill everything and then u can transition easily into both bio or mech. like seriously its about the same
you guys forget PDD blocks queen shots long enough for banshees to kill them. it also blocks spores. Even if Zerg scouts your 2port, what can he do? build more spores?? build more queens? go mutas??
Every scenario, even if he scouts 2port you still force units, force less drones, also PDD blocks spores and queens. Thus if it is unscouted you can effectively PDD at the third base while banshees reign supreme as well as kill off the creep. I believe this is a POSSIBLE solution, not a standard game alternattive.
If iS.Pyre, a Terran PRO-gamer says his build works, then i have to believe him because he has obviously been using it to some degree of success.
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Queens are fine. Hellions containing a Zerg on 2 base was OP. Blizz patched it. Terrans l2p.
Less QQ, more pew pew.
User was warned for this post
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On June 22 2012 06:17 Thylacine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. What if the zerg makes corruptors and uses ultralisks to drop into your base? What you just said is beyond theory and it doesen't work simply. Surely someone would have tried it? Like Kas? Or all the other terrans getting their asses handed to them. The flaws I see with banshee+raven is 1 infestor will wreck it, with queen support I believe. Or he just see what you are doing and counters you with all hes got while your banshees are in the middle of the map / at his base.
2 starports? Why can't the Zerg just build zerglings to kill him then? It's shaky at best.
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How does demuslim's bf helion stim marine push work these days?
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On June 22 2012 06:17 Holophonist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:15 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 02:55 LgN.EijZrA wrote:
Explain to me in vivid detail how queen range changed the MU other than the opening.
Can anyone please comment on this? Queen doesnt cost larvae. Queen defend all early game aggression. Thus every zerg has more drones in the midgame and in turn a bigger economy and army size. queens shouldnt be able to defend EVERYTHING without drawback. He said "vivid detail" for a reason. As in, the queen buff didn't change banshee play, it didn't change mass hellion play. The only thing it directly affected being able to repel small numbers of hellions (4 - 6) to start your creep a minute or 2 earlier..
It did change banshee play, because now that Queens are so much more effective versus ground units, there's no reason NOT to just make a ton of them meanwhile Zergs prior to the patch would make large numbers of queens as a counter to air units they knew were coming, but the usage of supply and resources on those queens would make them more vulnerable to heavy attacks from the ground.
Now that queens are capable defenders against any Terran opening, be it bio based, hellion based or banshee there's no reason not to just make a bunch of them and like the guy above you said, they don't cost larvae so they aren't a hindrance to your production in the same way forcing lings are.
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I just saw NSHS Sting try to apply some pressure to zerg... he attacked with like 16 marines and 20 scvs into 3 queens and a spine. Lost almost everything, did not kill a single thing (transfuse power). This is how we roll now I guess...
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On June 22 2012 06:17 bLo0d wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:07 Holophonist wrote:On June 22 2012 05:58 scypio wrote:On June 22 2012 05:47 Holophonist wrote:
I didn't say when you clean up creep. I'm merely saying that if there's too much creep to attack, don't attack. clean up the creep and go home. I see so many (and play so many) zvts where terrans still TRY to be aggressive, and then cry when it doesn't work. It's not SUPPOSED to work anymore, that was the point of the buff.
Go home and do what exactly? Buld a couple of thors? Two BCs? Or maybe a bunch of ravens? It is official statement from Blizzard: T has to do early/mid game damage to have a shot at the lategame. And clearing out a couple of tumors will not do the trick. This kind of discussion really isn't helpful at all. The things you have to do to win this game (particularly the later in the game we're talking about), really can't be written out well enough to fully describe the situation. I'm not going to sit here and theory craft with you, as that really doesn't get anybody anywhere. Who would've thought that roaches (even roach drops for heavens sake!) could be a viable counter to stargate play in zvp. You don't think it's feasible to get 3 CC's, start 1/1, get medivacs out and begin to apply pressure using bio? Your first push may get crushed, at the expense of a considerable amount of gas, but bio play on 3 bases can be sustained for a LONG time, giving you a ton of time to trade cost efficiently and while expanding behind it. The point: have some humility and please realize that it may take more than a month for terran to come up with a new playstyle. Do you think it was good for the game to have hellions just plainly parked outside of the zerg natural, denying all creep/ling scouts until speed was done or until you got mutas out? That wasn't good for the game either. Game was perfectly fine before the patch. The period before speedlings, roaches, or mutas were out to push back hellions was Terran's period of map control. After hellions are gone, Zerg has map control with muta and can drone up their third while denying the third of terran. Terrans rarely left their base except possibly with a few drops until they stabilized defenses from muta. On both ends, hellion control and muta control rewarded the player with extended periods of map control. As is, unit control is almost nonexistant in the early game, no amount of hellion control would break through 4 queens, while zerg just has to transfuse. Not only is it broken, it also is very boring. The micro dynamic of the early - mid game with hellions and muta harrass is gone. Also going mutas gave Terran a chance to do damage before a full Hive tech tree was completed. As is, Hive tech at 15 minutes is just the standard and Terran aren't given any time to breathe. With mutas, Zerg had to do some damage to terran and keep him contained long enough to make the mutas worth it, which the best players were able to do. It was a back and forth of defensive vs offensive play. Now, all the burden is on terran all the time. Zerg just deflects attacks as it takes an uninterrupted tech path to Ultra/Brood infestor. ding larva.
I understand the point about mutas rewarding the better play moreso than the current metagame does. And I agree that tvz was fine before the patch, for the most part. Long tvz's were often by far the best examples of what sc2 has to offer. The ones that WEREN'T entertaining or impressive were the early wins like marauder hellion, cloak banshee (not so much anymore), etc. And the point of the patch is to get rid of those games. The only question is "can terrans figure out a way to play the matchup that doesn't incorporate as much early aggression/cheese?" If they can't, hopefully blizz will change something to fix that. My point is that we're not at the point yet where we know whether or not they're capable of figuring that out.
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France9034 Posts
On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably.
It just takes ages and a shitload of gas : 1 factory = 100 2 Starport = 200 gas, 2 techlab = 50 gas, 3 banshees = 300 gas, one raven = 200 gas. Now that's about 2 minutes to have your 3 banshees and Raven, supposing you don't run out of gas in the process.
You need about 850 gas just to "move out" and try to adress à 600 minerals thingy, not even counting the time to build all of this... ? I'm not even counting the minerals, but you won't have more than a handful of unupgraded marines, or you'll have to wait more, and pull out a 35 supply worth army, versus a zerg that will be at Lair tech on 4 bases ? Even in the case the zerg can't manage to scout this, he can handle it just when seeing it coming thanks to creep. Oh and you don't have any raven upgrades, which means hardly a pdd or 2 turrets.
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quote from marineking...
"Q: How do you feel about the recent state of TvZ?
A: It's the most unbalanced match-up in history, before the patch (my) TvZ win-rate was around 60%, now it's plummeted to 10%. I'm really lost, why did this happen, I've studied alot of counter zerg strategies, and I haven't found any solutions yet.
In hindsight it's (strategies) all like that game on metropolis, playing to the late-game and setting up the prefect defense all around, it's kind of a solution with out a solution. I
I've watched alot of zergs that do well on ladder's records, alot of people basically haven't lost to Terran in a whole week. It's basically impossible for a terran with the same skill level as the zerg to win. Unless you all-in, or the opponent's psyche collapses, or your luck is just too good, it's hard to win. Even in practice I don't want to play TvZ, I always lose."
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On June 22 2012 06:17 Holophonist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:15 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 02:55 LgN.EijZrA wrote:
Explain to me in vivid detail how queen range changed the MU other than the opening.
Can anyone please comment on this? Queen doesnt cost larvae. Queen defend all early game aggression. Thus every zerg has more drones in the midgame and in turn a bigger economy and army size. queens shouldnt be able to defend EVERYTHING without drawback. He said "vivid detail" for a reason. As in, the queen buff didn't change banshee play, it didn't change mass hellion play. The only thing it directly affected being able to repel small numbers of hellions (4 - 6) to start your creep a minute or 2 earlier..
No.
Zerg had to make units before. Hellions delayed creep, used larva, sometimes gas, forced spines. Now queens do all that and more. The zerg economy progresses nearly exponentially, the few larvas used, the few lings produced, the few spines created made that both races entered midgame in equal footing. The race that handled that period better gained a small advantage. A small advantage, for either zerg or terran, but an advantage that could be overcame by the player who played better the midgame. And the player who played a better midgame entered lategame with a small advantage.
Now zerg always, always enter mid game with a massive advantage. So massive that most zergs just skip midgame and goes from droning to their final late game composition without needing anything in between to survive. Everyone can witness that, to not see that is not being biased, it's being blind ffs.
If you don't see that the previous delicate balance was destroyed by that ability to drone more, creep more, defend more, with less...well, I don't know what more can be said to you.
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On June 22 2012 06:18 SyrZulu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:16 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. ok theres a few builds like that u can do but what do u do if zerg scouts ur 2ports ? like its like saying hey look zergs builds queens and like to be really greedy, i can build 2factory with reactor after expanding and making 16 hellions before moving out. the hellions are used to kill everything and then u can transition easily into both bio or mech. like seriously its about the same you guys forget PDD blocks queen shots long enough for banshees to kill them. it also blocks spores. Even if Zerg scouts your 2port, what can he do? build more spores?? build more queens? go mutas?? Every scenario, even if he scouts 2port you still force units, force less drones, also PDD blocks spores and queens. Thus if it is unscouted you can effectively PDD at the third base while banshees reign supreme as well as kill off the creep. I believe this is a POSSIBLE solution, not a standard game alternattive. If iS.Pyre, a Terran PRO-gamer says his build works, then i have to believe him because he has obviously been using it to some degree of success.
u can win game with 16 unscouted hellions believe me. god i did get trolled so hard
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EPT
