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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 22 2012 06:49 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:47 RavenLoud wrote:On June 22 2012 06:41 GuitarBizarre wrote:On June 22 2012 06:39 RavenLoud wrote:
I'm afraid this won't fly. Blizzard intended thors to be weak to armored air (Void rays, carriers), if you give them 10 range strike cannon that hits air then it becomes a total counter to carriers.
Ah yes. I forgot how many builds rely on lategame carriers these days. Lol touche. I guess that speaks more for the fact that carriers sucks and that nobody goes mech in TvP. if mech were to become at all viable vs protoss, then carriers would instantly find their role in SC2. However, blizzard hates tanks and loves mawines and mawauders.
It's true actually.
Carriers are pretty devastating vs Mech play.
Only problem is they aren't unique in that role.
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4713 Posts
On June 22 2012 06:43 Holophonist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:34 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 22 2012 06:23 Holophonist wrote:On June 22 2012 06:17 bLo0d wrote:On June 22 2012 06:07 Holophonist wrote:On June 22 2012 05:58 scypio wrote:On June 22 2012 05:47 Holophonist wrote:
I didn't say when you clean up creep. I'm merely saying that if there's too much creep to attack, don't attack. clean up the creep and go home. I see so many (and play so many) zvts where terrans still TRY to be aggressive, and then cry when it doesn't work. It's not SUPPOSED to work anymore, that was the point of the buff.
Go home and do what exactly? Buld a couple of thors? Two BCs? Or maybe a bunch of ravens? It is official statement from Blizzard: T has to do early/mid game damage to have a shot at the lategame. And clearing out a couple of tumors will not do the trick. This kind of discussion really isn't helpful at all. The things you have to do to win this game (particularly the later in the game we're talking about), really can't be written out well enough to fully describe the situation. I'm not going to sit here and theory craft with you, as that really doesn't get anybody anywhere. Who would've thought that roaches (even roach drops for heavens sake!) could be a viable counter to stargate play in zvp. You don't think it's feasible to get 3 CC's, start 1/1, get medivacs out and begin to apply pressure using bio? Your first push may get crushed, at the expense of a considerable amount of gas, but bio play on 3 bases can be sustained for a LONG time, giving you a ton of time to trade cost efficiently and while expanding behind it. The point: have some humility and please realize that it may take more than a month for terran to come up with a new playstyle. Do you think it was good for the game to have hellions just plainly parked outside of the zerg natural, denying all creep/ling scouts until speed was done or until you got mutas out? That wasn't good for the game either. Game was perfectly fine before the patch. The period before speedlings, roaches, or mutas were out to push back hellions was Terran's period of map control. After hellions are gone, Zerg has map control with muta and can drone up their third while denying the third of terran. Terrans rarely left their base except possibly with a few drops until they stabilized defenses from muta. On both ends, hellion control and muta control rewarded the player with extended periods of map control. As is, unit control is almost nonexistant in the early game, no amount of hellion control would break through 4 queens, while zerg just has to transfuse. Not only is it broken, it also is very boring. The micro dynamic of the early - mid game with hellions and muta harrass is gone. Also going mutas gave Terran a chance to do damage before a full Hive tech tree was completed. As is, Hive tech at 15 minutes is just the standard and Terran aren't given any time to breathe. With mutas, Zerg had to do some damage to terran and keep him contained long enough to make the mutas worth it, which the best players were able to do. It was a back and forth of defensive vs offensive play. Now, all the burden is on terran all the time. Zerg just deflects attacks as it takes an uninterrupted tech path to Ultra/Brood infestor. ding larva. I understand the point about mutas rewarding the better play moreso than the current metagame does. And I agree that tvz was fine before the patch, for the most part. Long tvz's were often by far the best examples of what sc2 has to offer. The ones that WEREN'T entertaining or impressive were the early wins like marauder hellion, cloak banshee (not so much anymore), etc. And the point of the patch is to get rid of those games. The only question is "can terrans figure out a way to play the matchup that doesn't incorporate as much early aggression/cheese?" If they can't, hopefully blizz will change something to fix that. My point is that we're not at the point yet where we know whether or not they're capable of figuring that out. There's a big difference between giving Zerg tools to hold all ins, and making them immune to early pressure. Zergs were already dealing with Terran aggression pre-patch. Zergs like DRG could slap away any attempt at early pressure while droning safely and his ability to do that was what got him the label as the best Zerg in the world. Now? Any Zerg can do it thanks to the Queens. The beautiful skill that was displayed by DRG in his ability to play as greedy as possible and still survive is completely pointless now. DRG could do it BECAUSE he was the best zerg in the world. And I still think you're missing the point. MAYBE "early pressure" should be looked at differently. Maybe what timing attack you would do before should now just be meant to clean up creep and produce units, rather than trying to deny a third/kill them/whatever. The point is, WE DON'T KNOW YET.
Stop being stubborn, nearly 50% win rate in TvZ indicates that the way it used to be was the way it was supposed to be.
Simple game mechanics, zerg doesn't have many micro options, but they have strong macro options. Zerg units individually are weak but they scale well in numbers and are cheep. Zerg has larva and injects, this allows them to build lots of units quickly to overcome their individual weakness. Because of injects the zerg can get a huge economy advantage over both protoss or terrans if left alone.
To keep the zerg economy in check, terrans did certain timings to force more units instead of drones, spines, slow down the expansions and deny creep.
If those objectives can't be fulfilled zergs just explode out of control.
What you are seeing now is the situation spiral out of control because terran late game is shit, and even if it wasn't, the zerg will still have a huge bank because he has maxed out faster then the terran.
You say timings should be to "deny" creep spread and make units? The zerg will just laugh in your face, he will just send his queens back out to put down tumors on area you just cleared or, if it gets to the mid game, he'll just intercept your army and kill it on creep.
You can fight to deny his creep all day while he is more then happy to sit back at home, get 3/3, infestors and then his preferred tech choose of either Ultralisks or Brood Lords, which by the way work great with those 6 queens that he kept alive and used in the early and mid game to spread creep.
Do you really not realize how absurd you sound? Do you really not see how full of holes your argument really is?
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On June 22 2012 06:27 SyrZulu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:25 Ragnarork wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. It just takes ages and a shitload of gas : 1 factory = 100 2 Starport = 200 gas, 2 techlab = 50 gas, 3 banshees = 300 gas, one raven = 200 gas. Now that's about 2 minutes to have your 3 banshees and Raven, supposing you don't run out of gas in the process. You need about 850 gas just to "move out" and try to adress à 600 minerals thingy, not even counting the time to build all of this... ? I'm not even counting the minerals, but you won't have more than a handful of unupgraded marines, or you'll have to wait more, and pull out a 35 supply worth army, versus a zerg that will be at Lair tech on 4 bases ? Even in the case the zerg can't manage to scout this, he can handle it just when seeing it coming thanks to creep. Oh and you don't have any raven upgrades, which means hardly a pdd or 2 turrets. Its called 1rax FE into 3 gas. you Will have the gas support. Also, the zerg metagame is to effectively stay passive while obtaining a third so they can go into the lategame. That is what the discussion is about. so you do not NEED marines or much at all besides 1 bunker to defend zerg. Thus 2port can be viable.
rax FE into 3 gas?
tell me, yoda, how does one survive even the slightest roach/bling bust after your non-braindead zerg opponent sacks an overlord in your base to see what you're up to?
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On June 22 2012 06:38 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:18 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:16 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. ok theres a few builds like that u can do but what do u do if zerg scouts ur 2ports ? like its like saying hey look zergs builds queens and like to be really greedy, i can build 2factory with reactor after expanding and making 16 hellions before moving out. the hellions are used to kill everything and then u can transition easily into both bio or mech. like seriously its about the same you guys forget PDD blocks queen shots long enough for banshees to kill them. it also blocks spores. Even if Zerg scouts your 2port, what can he do? build more spores?? build more queens? go mutas?? Every scenario, even if he scouts 2port you still force units, force less drones, also PDD blocks spores and queens. Thus if it is unscouted you can effectively PDD at the third base while banshees reign supreme as well as kill off the creep. I believe this is a POSSIBLE solution, not a standard game alternattive. If iS.Pyre, a Terran PRO-gamer says his build works, then i have to believe him because he has obviously been using it to some degree of success. By the time you get that rolling the zerg is either teching to infestors or he already has them out. Yes your PDD will block queen and spore shots, but they won't block fungals. Or by the time that attack hits he Spire is about ready. You also have tunnel vision if you think Muta's aren't the solution to this, while PDDs do block muta attacks, a mass of mutas has so much attack speed that they will deplete that PDD energy in record time, after your raven is dead your banshees are dead. iS.Pyre must have been lucky to run into zergs that had no clue how to defend that, but if zergs see it often enough it won't take long for them to incorporate some easy responses into their play. And by the way, with 6 queens its even easy to defend 3 banshees with 1 PDD, you just transfuse between queens and spore if necessary, your PDD will run out of energy before the queens run out of transfuses.
No your wrong. zerg wont have infestors by that time. you dont even know the timing of the build so dont say infestors will be out.You also probobly didnt read that the transition from this is MECH. thats right! Thors beat mutalisks right? yes they get slayed.
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On June 22 2012 06:50 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:46 andropopp wrote:On June 22 2012 06:40 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 22 2012 06:34 andropopp wrote:On June 22 2012 06:16 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. That still doesn't solve the core problem. This "do damage early or die in the late game" is something that is inherently imbalanced. It justifies Terrans having proportionately strong early and mid game timings yet at the same time is a complete justification for Terran tier 3 being next to useless in TvZ and TvP. The changes that have been made to Protoss and Zerg over the last few patches have all addressed their issues of reaching the late game, now it's much safer and easier for them to reach their late game units they build towards all game. Meanwhile Terrans reach their peak combat effectiveness in the mid game. Ravens, Battlecruisers and Thors are just not anywhere near as useful as what the other races have available at the same tech level. Terrans can't build towards a superior army composition in the late game, because their midgame army composition of heavy bio, or heavy bio with siege tanks is the most effective army composition Terrans can field. i disagree with you on terrans having a weak lategame. I think thats an illusion created by the other weaknesses of terran, such as the weakness of not being able to play a greedy nr 15 style safely. I think ravens, BC's, and thors ARE strong but the reason they seem weak is because in order for terran to get them on the same level of zerg they need to play "greedy NR 15 style" which is extremely weak to any zerg aggression while zergs essentially are able to play that style safely and destroy what makes TvZ seem so horrible right now is terran is forced to focus on their midgame strength much more intensely just to survive, while the zerg can get to their endgame faster while sacrificing midgame strength for more economy and still being safe from all-ins. Terran cannot do that. Plus most terrans are also sacrificing economy early trying to deal with creep early game or to pressure early game, making the terran even weaker lategame because he sacrificed economy early. This is not the terrans fault really he just feels he has to do something to stop that creep. I think the true terran lategame can actually kill zergs lategame or at least contest with it equally. Terran just has no safe greedy economic way to get there, but zerg does. I believe if a terran and a zerg both said "NR 15" and did greedy builds and took 3 fast bases (thats about how long it takes to get 3 bases with lots of lategame tech thrown in plus required lategame production, 15mins. zerg will have a fourth but it wont be too operational at that point) the terran could be on an even footing as the zerg and compete with the zerg lategame even if he let the zerg put creep on the entire map by 15 minutes. But that is a unrealistic scenario. In real games the terran needs to make alot of midgame strength to not die to all-in's, while the zerg can pump pure economy realistically and always be safe from anything. and the midgame strength the terran does create has realistically zero ability to pressure the zerg effectively and even trying to pressure the zerg with that army is usually suicide the zerg produces just enough to roll you over and now your super behind in economy Yeah we saw MKP beat stephano with early pressure but DRG destroyed the same early pressure. It really looked to me like stephano made huge mistakes that game, MKP made almost no blunders while stephano was slower than he could be. If the zerg makes big mistakes and the terran makes no mistakes, terran can win. But the terran cant force the zerg to do like that, its the zerg thats beating himself, not the terran thats beating the zerg. The terran can only play perfectly and make zero mistakes and hope the zerg messes up and if the zerg doesnt mess up its gg. think about this terran lategame army 6 BC 36 6 thor 36 6 raven 12 3ghosts 6 4tank 12 19 vikings 38 3 planetary fortresses at each expansion to defend ling runbys thats 140food. terran can hang with 60scv's lategame thanks to 2 orbitals/ mules (while the rest of the CC's would be used to put 3 planetarys at each expansion) i think you would be hard pressed to find a 140food zerg army that trades nicely with that army as long as you make sure to spread the vikings to avoid fungals. while using that army the trick is you would want to keep your tanks out of siegemode if your enemy has too much broodlords or ultras, but use siegemode if the enemy has tons of lings/roaches and low amounts of broodlords. Broodlords counter siegemode too hard, but tanks for 3food (while being super expensive for 3food) are actually strong out of siegemode but have the option of using it to counter mass ling/baneling in battle your micro focus is to spread your whole army before the battle very well to avoid fungal/ultralisk splash as best as you can. Remember to keep your ravens and ghosts slightly behind your army protecting them from getting NP'ed. At the start of the battle quickly launch 6 yamatos on the ultralisks or broods then fly in your ravens and launch 6 HSM's on the corrupters. During the period of you using yamato/HSM the zerg is likely spamming fungal at this point. Then run in your ghosts and spam snipe on infestors (to counter NP. NP would be very strong against thors but 3ghosts should deal with it since snipe has a longrange to spam snipe on those infestors). During the hectic battle considering the ravens fly in to launch missiles seconds after the battle starts, this should hopefully greatly reduce the chance of the zerg getting off a successful NP on a raven due to the fact that the zerg is likely trying to micro off and score multiple good fungals during this time as each good fungal can do 200+ damage per click (as much as yamato) then after the corrupters/broodlords are dead, land your vikings and clean up the rest I really dont think theres a 140food zerg army in the unit tester that you could find that fights that terran lategame army well. im assuming the perfect zerg lategame army has both ultras and broodlords with infestors and corrupters and whatever else problem is in a real game the zerg proceedes to remax in 20 seconds with several extra 200food roach armies then the terran gets rolled over anyway long story short if terran HAD A WAY to safely get their lategame that wasnt suicide and low economy compared to the zerg, they could be good Dude you're theorycrafting so hard right now you've completely forgotten how Terran production works. Zerg and Protoss late game are both great because they complement their midgame army composition. You make Collosus out of the Robotics Facility and everything else you need comes from Warp Gates, and everything from Warp Gates can be reinforced quickly. Everything shares upgrades from the Forge. Everything Zerg makes, from the lowliest Zergling to the mighty Ultralisk comes from larvae. The time it takes for Zergs to tech, is the amount of time it takes for them to be able to mass produce any unit they want. Terran late game however, comes from Factories and Starports and a majority of the units you listed in there requires tech labs which means only a single unit can be produced from it at a time. Each of those factories or starports costs 100 gas, each tech lab costs another 25. are you disagree'ing with me or agree'ing with me everything you said is 100% EXACTLY what i was trying to say. THATS MY POINT, the terran is FORCED to not be able to play a "greedy NR 15 style" and he cannot actually get super lategame tech and economy while skipping midgame, but the zerg can my point was that, HYPOTHETICALLY, if the zerg and terran both said "nr 15" then the terran could enter the endgame at an equal level of the zerg because he can just skip barracks/bio completely and go for pure endgame and mech/air upgrades and zero bio upgrades but the game is not like that. the terran cannot play a "nr 15" style because he would get obliterated by any light aggression the zerg felt like doing
The amount of time and resources it takes to max out on an army composition like the one you're proposing is completely unrealistic compared to what it would cost the other races to do the same, and what's more is that they don't need to since their late game units mesh well with the units they're already using from the previous tiers.
Broodlings share upgrades with Zerglings and Ultralisks, Collosus share upgrades with Archons and Zealots. Battlecruisers Thors and Ghosts all require a separate set of upgrades.
Do you see how far'fetched the playstyle you're talking about is yet?
again.. are you agree'ing with me or disagree'ing with me? I cant even tell what you just said IS EXACTLY MY POINT my point if you even read that post was that only in a hypothetical scenario where both players say "alright NR 15" can the terran actually enter the lategame on an even footing with the zerg. other than that terran is forced to sacrifice economy and build up low-tech while the zerg is maxing pure economy and getting their high-tech goodies You're arguing that Terran late game isn't bad because if it's massed together in a completely unrealistic scenario it's worthwhile.
correct. Im saying that people believe terran lategame is weak because terran is not allowed to get it the way a zerg can get it. So this makes people see a false illussion that ravens/thors/bc's are weak, when in reality its just terran as a race that is weak but not those units
So people think the units are weak, when in reality terran as a race is weak because terran cannot play the way a zerg can.
Im just saying thors / bc's dont need to be buffed, TERRAN AS A RACE needs to be buffed. its not that terran has no lategame options, its that TERRAN AS A RACE has no lategame options.
I know it sounds weird but zerg as a race can play greedy NR 15 straight to lategame and be safe from all-ins, but terran as a race cant, thats the problem
I'm arguing that Terran late game is ONLY good when it's massed together in a completely scenario, because the late game units in the Terran arsenal do not complement the mid game army compositions Terrans can field in the way that Protoss and Zerg late game units can.
what your saying only applies to the real world where terran is forced to get their mid-game stuff
in my fake hypothetical world which i was basing my hypothetical argument on, terran isnt forced to get their midgame stuff so theres no problem
but the real world is real, and my hypothetical world is fake. So that means the problem is real, which i am agree'ing with you on, Im not saying the problem doesnt exist, im just saying it doesnt exist in my fake hypothetical world i was basing my argument on.
So i agree with you that the problem does exist. Now how can blizzard fix the problem? I dont know. my point was that terran lategame units dont need to be buffed to fix the problem, instead terran as a race needs to be buffed to fix the problem
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On June 22 2012 06:54 SKYFISH_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:27 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:25 Ragnarork wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. It just takes ages and a shitload of gas : 1 factory = 100 2 Starport = 200 gas, 2 techlab = 50 gas, 3 banshees = 300 gas, one raven = 200 gas. Now that's about 2 minutes to have your 3 banshees and Raven, supposing you don't run out of gas in the process. You need about 850 gas just to "move out" and try to adress à 600 minerals thingy, not even counting the time to build all of this... ? I'm not even counting the minerals, but you won't have more than a handful of unupgraded marines, or you'll have to wait more, and pull out a 35 supply worth army, versus a zerg that will be at Lair tech on 4 bases ? Even in the case the zerg can't manage to scout this, he can handle it just when seeing it coming thanks to creep. Oh and you don't have any raven upgrades, which means hardly a pdd or 2 turrets. Its called 1rax FE into 3 gas. you Will have the gas support. Also, the zerg metagame is to effectively stay passive while obtaining a third so they can go into the lategame. That is what the discussion is about. so you do not NEED marines or much at all besides 1 bunker to defend zerg. Thus 2port can be viable. rax FE into 3 gas? tell me, yoda, how does one survive even the slightest roach/bling bust after your non-braindead zerg opponent sacks an overlord in your base to see what you're up to?
I just watched Pyre use the build against Fitzy, who is currently streaming and he defended mass a roach ling attack on daybreak with 3 banshees a raven and a bunker with marines. There is your proof, please dont argue i just want to make the point that the build CAN be viable , not that the build is a savior of the terran race. Thanks!
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On June 22 2012 06:55 andropopp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:50 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 22 2012 06:46 andropopp wrote:On June 22 2012 06:40 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 22 2012 06:34 andropopp wrote:On June 22 2012 06:16 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. That still doesn't solve the core problem. This "do damage early or die in the late game" is something that is inherently imbalanced. It justifies Terrans having proportionately strong early and mid game timings yet at the same time is a complete justification for Terran tier 3 being next to useless in TvZ and TvP. The changes that have been made to Protoss and Zerg over the last few patches have all addressed their issues of reaching the late game, now it's much safer and easier for them to reach their late game units they build towards all game. Meanwhile Terrans reach their peak combat effectiveness in the mid game. Ravens, Battlecruisers and Thors are just not anywhere near as useful as what the other races have available at the same tech level. Terrans can't build towards a superior army composition in the late game, because their midgame army composition of heavy bio, or heavy bio with siege tanks is the most effective army composition Terrans can field. i disagree with you on terrans having a weak lategame. I think thats an illusion created by the other weaknesses of terran, such as the weakness of not being able to play a greedy nr 15 style safely. I think ravens, BC's, and thors ARE strong but the reason they seem weak is because in order for terran to get them on the same level of zerg they need to play "greedy NR 15 style" which is extremely weak to any zerg aggression while zergs essentially are able to play that style safely and destroy what makes TvZ seem so horrible right now is terran is forced to focus on their midgame strength much more intensely just to survive, while the zerg can get to their endgame faster while sacrificing midgame strength for more economy and still being safe from all-ins. Terran cannot do that. Plus most terrans are also sacrificing economy early trying to deal with creep early game or to pressure early game, making the terran even weaker lategame because he sacrificed economy early. This is not the terrans fault really he just feels he has to do something to stop that creep. I think the true terran lategame can actually kill zergs lategame or at least contest with it equally. Terran just has no safe greedy economic way to get there, but zerg does. I believe if a terran and a zerg both said "NR 15" and did greedy builds and took 3 fast bases (thats about how long it takes to get 3 bases with lots of lategame tech thrown in plus required lategame production, 15mins. zerg will have a fourth but it wont be too operational at that point) the terran could be on an even footing as the zerg and compete with the zerg lategame even if he let the zerg put creep on the entire map by 15 minutes. But that is a unrealistic scenario. In real games the terran needs to make alot of midgame strength to not die to all-in's, while the zerg can pump pure economy realistically and always be safe from anything. and the midgame strength the terran does create has realistically zero ability to pressure the zerg effectively and even trying to pressure the zerg with that army is usually suicide the zerg produces just enough to roll you over and now your super behind in economy Yeah we saw MKP beat stephano with early pressure but DRG destroyed the same early pressure. It really looked to me like stephano made huge mistakes that game, MKP made almost no blunders while stephano was slower than he could be. If the zerg makes big mistakes and the terran makes no mistakes, terran can win. But the terran cant force the zerg to do like that, its the zerg thats beating himself, not the terran thats beating the zerg. The terran can only play perfectly and make zero mistakes and hope the zerg messes up and if the zerg doesnt mess up its gg. think about this terran lategame army 6 BC 36 6 thor 36 6 raven 12 3ghosts 6 4tank 12 19 vikings 38 3 planetary fortresses at each expansion to defend ling runbys thats 140food. terran can hang with 60scv's lategame thanks to 2 orbitals/ mules (while the rest of the CC's would be used to put 3 planetarys at each expansion) i think you would be hard pressed to find a 140food zerg army that trades nicely with that army as long as you make sure to spread the vikings to avoid fungals. while using that army the trick is you would want to keep your tanks out of siegemode if your enemy has too much broodlords or ultras, but use siegemode if the enemy has tons of lings/roaches and low amounts of broodlords. Broodlords counter siegemode too hard, but tanks for 3food (while being super expensive for 3food) are actually strong out of siegemode but have the option of using it to counter mass ling/baneling in battle your micro focus is to spread your whole army before the battle very well to avoid fungal/ultralisk splash as best as you can. Remember to keep your ravens and ghosts slightly behind your army protecting them from getting NP'ed. At the start of the battle quickly launch 6 yamatos on the ultralisks or broods then fly in your ravens and launch 6 HSM's on the corrupters. During the period of you using yamato/HSM the zerg is likely spamming fungal at this point. Then run in your ghosts and spam snipe on infestors (to counter NP. NP would be very strong against thors but 3ghosts should deal with it since snipe has a longrange to spam snipe on those infestors). During the hectic battle considering the ravens fly in to launch missiles seconds after the battle starts, this should hopefully greatly reduce the chance of the zerg getting off a successful NP on a raven due to the fact that the zerg is likely trying to micro off and score multiple good fungals during this time as each good fungal can do 200+ damage per click (as much as yamato) then after the corrupters/broodlords are dead, land your vikings and clean up the rest I really dont think theres a 140food zerg army in the unit tester that you could find that fights that terran lategame army well. im assuming the perfect zerg lategame army has both ultras and broodlords with infestors and corrupters and whatever else problem is in a real game the zerg proceedes to remax in 20 seconds with several extra 200food roach armies then the terran gets rolled over anyway long story short if terran HAD A WAY to safely get their lategame that wasnt suicide and low economy compared to the zerg, they could be good Dude you're theorycrafting so hard right now you've completely forgotten how Terran production works. Zerg and Protoss late game are both great because they complement their midgame army composition. You make Collosus out of the Robotics Facility and everything else you need comes from Warp Gates, and everything from Warp Gates can be reinforced quickly. Everything shares upgrades from the Forge. Everything Zerg makes, from the lowliest Zergling to the mighty Ultralisk comes from larvae. The time it takes for Zergs to tech, is the amount of time it takes for them to be able to mass produce any unit they want. Terran late game however, comes from Factories and Starports and a majority of the units you listed in there requires tech labs which means only a single unit can be produced from it at a time. Each of those factories or starports costs 100 gas, each tech lab costs another 25. are you disagree'ing with me or agree'ing with me everything you said is 100% EXACTLY what i was trying to say. THATS MY POINT, the terran is FORCED to not be able to play a "greedy NR 15 style" and he cannot actually get super lategame tech and economy while skipping midgame, but the zerg can my point was that, HYPOTHETICALLY, if the zerg and terran both said "nr 15" then the terran could enter the endgame at an equal level of the zerg because he can just skip barracks/bio completely and go for pure endgame and mech/air upgrades and zero bio upgrades but the game is not like that. the terran cannot play a "nr 15" style because he would get obliterated by any light aggression the zerg felt like doing
The amount of time and resources it takes to max out on an army composition like the one you're proposing is completely unrealistic compared to what it would cost the other races to do the same, and what's more is that they don't need to since their late game units mesh well with the units they're already using from the previous tiers.
Broodlings share upgrades with Zerglings and Ultralisks, Collosus share upgrades with Archons and Zealots. Battlecruisers Thors and Ghosts all require a separate set of upgrades.
Do you see how far'fetched the playstyle you're talking about is yet?
again.. are you agree'ing with me or disagree'ing with me? I cant even tell what you just said IS EXACTLY MY POINT my point if you even read that post was that only in a hypothetical scenario where both players say "alright NR 15" can the terran actually enter the lategame on an even footing with the zerg. other than that terran is forced to sacrifice economy and build up low-tech while the zerg is maxing pure economy and getting their high-tech goodies You're arguing that Terran late game isn't bad because if it's massed together in a completely unrealistic scenario it's worthwhile. correct. Im saying that people believe terran lategame is weak because terran is not allowed to get it the way a zerg can get it. So this makes people see a false illussion that ravens/thors/bc's are weak, when in reality its just terran as a race that is weak but not those units So people think the units are weak, when in reality terran as a race is weak because terran cannot play the way a zerg can. Im just saying thors / bc's dont need to be buffed, TERRAN AS A RACE needs to be buffed. its not that terran has no lategame options, its that TERRAN AS A RACE has no lategame options. I know it sounds weird but zerg as a race can play greedy NR 15 straight to lategame and be safe from all-ins, but terran as a race cant, thats the problem Show nested quote +
I'm arguing that Terran late game is ONLY good when it's massed together in a completely scenario, because the late game units in the Terran arsenal do not complement the mid game army compositions Terrans can field in the way that Protoss and Zerg late game units can.
what your saying only applies to the real world where terran is forced to get their mid-game stuff in my fake hypothetical world which i was basing my hypothetical argument on, terran isnt forced to get their midgame stuff so theres no problem but the real world is real, and my hypothetical world is fake. So that means the problem is real, which i am agree'ing with you on, Im not saying the problem doesnt exist, im just saying it doesnt exist in my fake hypothetical world i was basing my argument on. So i agree with you that the problem does exist. Now how can blizzard fix the problem? I dont know. my point was that terran lategame units dont need to be buffed to fix the problem, instead terran as a race needs to be buffed to fix the problem
I don't see how you can make the argument that at least some Terran late game units don't need to be buffed when by your own argument you state that the only time they can be worthwhile is if they are massed together in an unrealistic unit composition.
I'm talking simple things like removing 250mm cannons from Thors and their energy bar with it, making them less vulnerable to Feedback, giving Terran armies a great tanking unit in the late game to support their bio forces.
Or nerfing the damage on HSM and lowering its energy cost and increasing its range, to make it better as a complementary attack but not so devastating when massed together with 8-10 Ravens.
Changing Snipe so that it does less damage vs massive but keeps the damage it had vs everything else prior to the patch.
Simple things like those would go a long way in making Terran late game worth using.
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4713 Posts
On June 22 2012 06:55 SyrZulu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:38 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 06:18 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:16 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. ok theres a few builds like that u can do but what do u do if zerg scouts ur 2ports ? like its like saying hey look zergs builds queens and like to be really greedy, i can build 2factory with reactor after expanding and making 16 hellions before moving out. the hellions are used to kill everything and then u can transition easily into both bio or mech. like seriously its about the same you guys forget PDD blocks queen shots long enough for banshees to kill them. it also blocks spores. Even if Zerg scouts your 2port, what can he do? build more spores?? build more queens? go mutas?? Every scenario, even if he scouts 2port you still force units, force less drones, also PDD blocks spores and queens. Thus if it is unscouted you can effectively PDD at the third base while banshees reign supreme as well as kill off the creep. I believe this is a POSSIBLE solution, not a standard game alternattive. If iS.Pyre, a Terran PRO-gamer says his build works, then i have to believe him because he has obviously been using it to some degree of success. By the time you get that rolling the zerg is either teching to infestors or he already has them out. Yes your PDD will block queen and spore shots, but they won't block fungals. Or by the time that attack hits he Spire is about ready. You also have tunnel vision if you think Muta's aren't the solution to this, while PDDs do block muta attacks, a mass of mutas has so much attack speed that they will deplete that PDD energy in record time, after your raven is dead your banshees are dead. iS.Pyre must have been lucky to run into zergs that had no clue how to defend that, but if zergs see it often enough it won't take long for them to incorporate some easy responses into their play. And by the way, with 6 queens its even easy to defend 3 banshees with 1 PDD, you just transfuse between queens and spore if necessary, your PDD will run out of energy before the queens run out of transfuses. No your wrong. zerg wont have infestors by that time. you dont even know the timing of the build so dont say infestors will be out.You also probobly didnt read that the transition from this is MECH. thats right! Thors beat mutalisks right? yes they get slayed.
Oh my god, even better!
So you delay your mech upgrades, your mech production and your timings so you can get 3 Banshees and 1 Raven that will do absolutely nothing to the zerg? Oh man if I was the zerg I'd just build 1 extra spore at each base and maybe 1 queen from each hatch while teching as usual and going to the standard anti-mech response of mass roaches and prepping overlord drops.
Seriously stop talking about Pyre as if he is some kind of Terran revolutionist, he is just lucky he has yet to meet a zerg to properly scout him and also properly prepare for it. I mean, for crying out loud he is playing on the US server, which everyone agrees is leaps and bounds bellow the EU and Korean servers in terms of quality.
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On June 22 2012 06:56 SyrZulu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:54 SKYFISH_ wrote:On June 22 2012 06:27 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:25 Ragnarork wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. It just takes ages and a shitload of gas : 1 factory = 100 2 Starport = 200 gas, 2 techlab = 50 gas, 3 banshees = 300 gas, one raven = 200 gas. Now that's about 2 minutes to have your 3 banshees and Raven, supposing you don't run out of gas in the process. You need about 850 gas just to "move out" and try to adress à 600 minerals thingy, not even counting the time to build all of this... ? I'm not even counting the minerals, but you won't have more than a handful of unupgraded marines, or you'll have to wait more, and pull out a 35 supply worth army, versus a zerg that will be at Lair tech on 4 bases ? Even in the case the zerg can't manage to scout this, he can handle it just when seeing it coming thanks to creep. Oh and you don't have any raven upgrades, which means hardly a pdd or 2 turrets. Its called 1rax FE into 3 gas. you Will have the gas support. Also, the zerg metagame is to effectively stay passive while obtaining a third so they can go into the lategame. That is what the discussion is about. so you do not NEED marines or much at all besides 1 bunker to defend zerg. Thus 2port can be viable. rax FE into 3 gas? tell me, yoda, how does one survive even the slightest roach/bling bust after your non-braindead zerg opponent sacks an overlord in your base to see what you're up to? I just watched Pyre use the build against Fitzy, who is currently streaming and he defended mass a roach ling attack on daybreak with 3 banshees a raven and a bunker with marines. There is your proof, please dont argue i just want to make the point that the build CAN be viable , not that the build is a savior of the terran race. Thanks!
who's pyre
who's fitzy
what results do they have?
also given that roach bane hits around 7 minutes (before a banshee from a 3OC _2 gas_ banshee hellion build)...
why the fuck did this 'fitzy' attack so late that pyre had 3 banshees AND a raven to defend it, and with a roach LING bust rather than a roach BANE?
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On June 22 2012 07:04 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:55 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:38 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 06:18 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:16 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. ok theres a few builds like that u can do but what do u do if zerg scouts ur 2ports ? like its like saying hey look zergs builds queens and like to be really greedy, i can build 2factory with reactor after expanding and making 16 hellions before moving out. the hellions are used to kill everything and then u can transition easily into both bio or mech. like seriously its about the same you guys forget PDD blocks queen shots long enough for banshees to kill them. it also blocks spores. Even if Zerg scouts your 2port, what can he do? build more spores?? build more queens? go mutas?? Every scenario, even if he scouts 2port you still force units, force less drones, also PDD blocks spores and queens. Thus if it is unscouted you can effectively PDD at the third base while banshees reign supreme as well as kill off the creep. I believe this is a POSSIBLE solution, not a standard game alternattive. If iS.Pyre, a Terran PRO-gamer says his build works, then i have to believe him because he has obviously been using it to some degree of success. By the time you get that rolling the zerg is either teching to infestors or he already has them out. Yes your PDD will block queen and spore shots, but they won't block fungals. Or by the time that attack hits he Spire is about ready. You also have tunnel vision if you think Muta's aren't the solution to this, while PDDs do block muta attacks, a mass of mutas has so much attack speed that they will deplete that PDD energy in record time, after your raven is dead your banshees are dead. iS.Pyre must have been lucky to run into zergs that had no clue how to defend that, but if zergs see it often enough it won't take long for them to incorporate some easy responses into their play. And by the way, with 6 queens its even easy to defend 3 banshees with 1 PDD, you just transfuse between queens and spore if necessary, your PDD will run out of energy before the queens run out of transfuses. No your wrong. zerg wont have infestors by that time. you dont even know the timing of the build so dont say infestors will be out.You also probobly didnt read that the transition from this is MECH. thats right! Thors beat mutalisks right? yes they get slayed. Oh my god, even better! So you delay your mech upgrades, your mech production and your timings so you can get 3 Banshees and 1 Raven that will do absolutely nothing to the zerg? Oh man if I was the zerg I'd just build 1 extra spore at each base and maybe 1 queen from each hatch while teching as usual and going to the standard anti-mech response of mass roaches and prepping overlord drops. Seriously stop talking about Pyre as if he is some kind of Terran revolutionist, he is just lucky he has yet to meet a zerg to properly scout him and also properly prepare for it. I mean, for crying out loud he is playing on the US server, which everyone agrees is leaps and bounds bellow the EU and Korean servers in terms of quality.
he plays on KR too lol stop judging the kid. and if you listened to what i said, PDD blocks spores and queens. Forcing queens and spores IS something believe it or not. even if you do NO damage as in 0, you still kill the creep which is huge in my opinion. iv seen him do the build just now, it WORKS. proofs in the pudding , stop trying to argue that it is a bad build, because it is still largely unexplored. Mech is actually an amazing transition out of the 2port build if i must say so myself. Of course with most pressures you sacrifice some things, but if this 2port build can hold off a roach ling attack in itself, then it wouldnt hinder much tech and production because the zerg hindered his by going for a roach atttack as well.
It IS viable because i JUST saw it work! even if one game doesnt prove much atleast it can be explored more to see its weaknesses.
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On June 22 2012 07:12 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:56 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:54 SKYFISH_ wrote:On June 22 2012 06:27 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:25 Ragnarork wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. It just takes ages and a shitload of gas : 1 factory = 100 2 Starport = 200 gas, 2 techlab = 50 gas, 3 banshees = 300 gas, one raven = 200 gas. Now that's about 2 minutes to have your 3 banshees and Raven, supposing you don't run out of gas in the process. You need about 850 gas just to "move out" and try to adress à 600 minerals thingy, not even counting the time to build all of this... ? I'm not even counting the minerals, but you won't have more than a handful of unupgraded marines, or you'll have to wait more, and pull out a 35 supply worth army, versus a zerg that will be at Lair tech on 4 bases ? Even in the case the zerg can't manage to scout this, he can handle it just when seeing it coming thanks to creep. Oh and you don't have any raven upgrades, which means hardly a pdd or 2 turrets. Its called 1rax FE into 3 gas. you Will have the gas support. Also, the zerg metagame is to effectively stay passive while obtaining a third so they can go into the lategame. That is what the discussion is about. so you do not NEED marines or much at all besides 1 bunker to defend zerg. Thus 2port can be viable. rax FE into 3 gas? tell me, yoda, how does one survive even the slightest roach/bling bust after your non-braindead zerg opponent sacks an overlord in your base to see what you're up to? I just watched Pyre use the build against Fitzy, who is currently streaming and he defended mass a roach ling attack on daybreak with 3 banshees a raven and a bunker with marines. There is your proof, please dont argue i just want to make the point that the build CAN be viable , not that the build is a savior of the terran race. Thanks! who's pyre who's fitzy what results do they have? also given that roach bane hits around 7 minutes (before a banshee from a 3OC _2 gas_ banshee hellion build)... why the fuck did this 'fitzy' attack so late that pyre had 3 banshees AND a raven to defend it, and with a roach LING bust rather than a roach BANE?
Because the bust wasnt all in. You must not follow the SCII pro scene closely, as both players are top level GM. Both players Pyre and Fitzy take out high level pros daily on ladder if that even means anything. As for results, Fitzy took out Zenio at MLG 2-0 while Pyre has made it 1 round short of the Championship Bracket in MLG Columbus. And any top level GM player has the power to make builds that can be viable. Are you saying that the ONLY players we should watch are IM MvP and DRG? No that is ridiculous. Just because a player isnt THE BEST but is still very high level doesnt mean he cant play well.
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On June 22 2012 07:17 SyrZulu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 07:04 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 06:55 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:38 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 06:18 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:16 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. ok theres a few builds like that u can do but what do u do if zerg scouts ur 2ports ? like its like saying hey look zergs builds queens and like to be really greedy, i can build 2factory with reactor after expanding and making 16 hellions before moving out. the hellions are used to kill everything and then u can transition easily into both bio or mech. like seriously its about the same you guys forget PDD blocks queen shots long enough for banshees to kill them. it also blocks spores. Even if Zerg scouts your 2port, what can he do? build more spores?? build more queens? go mutas?? Every scenario, even if he scouts 2port you still force units, force less drones, also PDD blocks spores and queens. Thus if it is unscouted you can effectively PDD at the third base while banshees reign supreme as well as kill off the creep. I believe this is a POSSIBLE solution, not a standard game alternattive. If iS.Pyre, a Terran PRO-gamer says his build works, then i have to believe him because he has obviously been using it to some degree of success. By the time you get that rolling the zerg is either teching to infestors or he already has them out. Yes your PDD will block queen and spore shots, but they won't block fungals. Or by the time that attack hits he Spire is about ready. You also have tunnel vision if you think Muta's aren't the solution to this, while PDDs do block muta attacks, a mass of mutas has so much attack speed that they will deplete that PDD energy in record time, after your raven is dead your banshees are dead. iS.Pyre must have been lucky to run into zergs that had no clue how to defend that, but if zergs see it often enough it won't take long for them to incorporate some easy responses into their play. And by the way, with 6 queens its even easy to defend 3 banshees with 1 PDD, you just transfuse between queens and spore if necessary, your PDD will run out of energy before the queens run out of transfuses. No your wrong. zerg wont have infestors by that time. you dont even know the timing of the build so dont say infestors will be out.You also probobly didnt read that the transition from this is MECH. thats right! Thors beat mutalisks right? yes they get slayed. Oh my god, even better! So you delay your mech upgrades, your mech production and your timings so you can get 3 Banshees and 1 Raven that will do absolutely nothing to the zerg? Oh man if I was the zerg I'd just build 1 extra spore at each base and maybe 1 queen from each hatch while teching as usual and going to the standard anti-mech response of mass roaches and prepping overlord drops. Seriously stop talking about Pyre as if he is some kind of Terran revolutionist, he is just lucky he has yet to meet a zerg to properly scout him and also properly prepare for it. I mean, for crying out loud he is playing on the US server, which everyone agrees is leaps and bounds bellow the EU and Korean servers in terms of quality. he plays on KR too lol stop judging the kid. and if you listened to what i said, PDD blocks spores and queens. Forcing queens and spores IS something believe it or not. even if you do NO damage as in 0, you still kill the creep which is huge in my opinion. iv seen him do the build just now, it WORKS. proofs in the pudding , stop trying to argue that it is a bad build, because it is still largely unexplored. Mech is actually an amazing transition out of the 2port build if i must say so myself. Of course with most pressures you sacrifice some things, but if this 2port build can hold off a roach ling attack in itself, then it wouldnt hinder much tech and production because the zerg hindered his by going for a roach atttack as well.
IdrA said 2 banshee+raven was worthless vs 4 queens, doubt 3 banshee+raven does better vs 6 queen or likewise. Thus no creep denial?
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On June 22 2012 07:17 SyrZulu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 07:04 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 06:55 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:38 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 06:18 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:16 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. ok theres a few builds like that u can do but what do u do if zerg scouts ur 2ports ? like its like saying hey look zergs builds queens and like to be really greedy, i can build 2factory with reactor after expanding and making 16 hellions before moving out. the hellions are used to kill everything and then u can transition easily into both bio or mech. like seriously its about the same you guys forget PDD blocks queen shots long enough for banshees to kill them. it also blocks spores. Even if Zerg scouts your 2port, what can he do? build more spores?? build more queens? go mutas?? Every scenario, even if he scouts 2port you still force units, force less drones, also PDD blocks spores and queens. Thus if it is unscouted you can effectively PDD at the third base while banshees reign supreme as well as kill off the creep. I believe this is a POSSIBLE solution, not a standard game alternattive. If iS.Pyre, a Terran PRO-gamer says his build works, then i have to believe him because he has obviously been using it to some degree of success. By the time you get that rolling the zerg is either teching to infestors or he already has them out. Yes your PDD will block queen and spore shots, but they won't block fungals. Or by the time that attack hits he Spire is about ready. You also have tunnel vision if you think Muta's aren't the solution to this, while PDDs do block muta attacks, a mass of mutas has so much attack speed that they will deplete that PDD energy in record time, after your raven is dead your banshees are dead. iS.Pyre must have been lucky to run into zergs that had no clue how to defend that, but if zergs see it often enough it won't take long for them to incorporate some easy responses into their play. And by the way, with 6 queens its even easy to defend 3 banshees with 1 PDD, you just transfuse between queens and spore if necessary, your PDD will run out of energy before the queens run out of transfuses. No your wrong. zerg wont have infestors by that time. you dont even know the timing of the build so dont say infestors will be out.You also probobly didnt read that the transition from this is MECH. thats right! Thors beat mutalisks right? yes they get slayed. Oh my god, even better! So you delay your mech upgrades, your mech production and your timings so you can get 3 Banshees and 1 Raven that will do absolutely nothing to the zerg? Oh man if I was the zerg I'd just build 1 extra spore at each base and maybe 1 queen from each hatch while teching as usual and going to the standard anti-mech response of mass roaches and prepping overlord drops. Seriously stop talking about Pyre as if he is some kind of Terran revolutionist, he is just lucky he has yet to meet a zerg to properly scout him and also properly prepare for it. I mean, for crying out loud he is playing on the US server, which everyone agrees is leaps and bounds bellow the EU and Korean servers in terms of quality. he plays on KR too lol stop judging the kid. and if you listened to what i said, PDD blocks spores and queens. Forcing queens and spores IS something believe it or not. even if you do NO damage as in 0, you still kill the creep which is huge in my opinion. iv seen him do the build just now, it WORKS. proofs in the pudding , stop trying to argue that it is a bad build, because it is still largely unexplored. Mech is actually an amazing transition out of the 2port build if i must say so myself. Of course with most pressures you sacrifice some things, but if this 2port build can hold off a roach ling attack in itself, then it wouldnt hinder much tech and production because the zerg hindered his by going for a roach atttack as well. It IS viable because i JUST saw it work! even if one game doesnt prove much atleast it can be explored more to see its weaknesses.
Then the zerg goes for mutas and pyro dies. GG
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On June 22 2012 07:21 Theovide wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 07:17 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 07:04 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 06:55 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:38 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 06:18 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:16 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. ok theres a few builds like that u can do but what do u do if zerg scouts ur 2ports ? like its like saying hey look zergs builds queens and like to be really greedy, i can build 2factory with reactor after expanding and making 16 hellions before moving out. the hellions are used to kill everything and then u can transition easily into both bio or mech. like seriously its about the same you guys forget PDD blocks queen shots long enough for banshees to kill them. it also blocks spores. Even if Zerg scouts your 2port, what can he do? build more spores?? build more queens? go mutas?? Every scenario, even if he scouts 2port you still force units, force less drones, also PDD blocks spores and queens. Thus if it is unscouted you can effectively PDD at the third base while banshees reign supreme as well as kill off the creep. I believe this is a POSSIBLE solution, not a standard game alternattive. If iS.Pyre, a Terran PRO-gamer says his build works, then i have to believe him because he has obviously been using it to some degree of success. By the time you get that rolling the zerg is either teching to infestors or he already has them out. Yes your PDD will block queen and spore shots, but they won't block fungals. Or by the time that attack hits he Spire is about ready. You also have tunnel vision if you think Muta's aren't the solution to this, while PDDs do block muta attacks, a mass of mutas has so much attack speed that they will deplete that PDD energy in record time, after your raven is dead your banshees are dead. iS.Pyre must have been lucky to run into zergs that had no clue how to defend that, but if zergs see it often enough it won't take long for them to incorporate some easy responses into their play. And by the way, with 6 queens its even easy to defend 3 banshees with 1 PDD, you just transfuse between queens and spore if necessary, your PDD will run out of energy before the queens run out of transfuses. No your wrong. zerg wont have infestors by that time. you dont even know the timing of the build so dont say infestors will be out.You also probobly didnt read that the transition from this is MECH. thats right! Thors beat mutalisks right? yes they get slayed. Oh my god, even better! So you delay your mech upgrades, your mech production and your timings so you can get 3 Banshees and 1 Raven that will do absolutely nothing to the zerg? Oh man if I was the zerg I'd just build 1 extra spore at each base and maybe 1 queen from each hatch while teching as usual and going to the standard anti-mech response of mass roaches and prepping overlord drops. Seriously stop talking about Pyre as if he is some kind of Terran revolutionist, he is just lucky he has yet to meet a zerg to properly scout him and also properly prepare for it. I mean, for crying out loud he is playing on the US server, which everyone agrees is leaps and bounds bellow the EU and Korean servers in terms of quality. he plays on KR too lol stop judging the kid. and if you listened to what i said, PDD blocks spores and queens. Forcing queens and spores IS something believe it or not. even if you do NO damage as in 0, you still kill the creep which is huge in my opinion. iv seen him do the build just now, it WORKS. proofs in the pudding , stop trying to argue that it is a bad build, because it is still largely unexplored. Mech is actually an amazing transition out of the 2port build if i must say so myself. Of course with most pressures you sacrifice some things, but if this 2port build can hold off a roach ling attack in itself, then it wouldnt hinder much tech and production because the zerg hindered his by going for a roach atttack as well. IdrA said 2 banshee+raven was worthless vs 4 queens, doubt 3 banshee+raven does better vs 6 queen or likewise. Thus no creep denial?
Idra is a respected player so i respect his thoughts about it but its not just 3 banshee. There is a 5 banshee follow up (build 2 more), coupled with PDD it can kill 6 queens. And still idras point is that banshees cant kill queens, while the pyre 2port build is aimed at denycreep while applying pressure not at straight up winning or killing every queen.
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On June 22 2012 07:23 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 07:17 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 07:04 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 06:55 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:38 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 06:18 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:16 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. ok theres a few builds like that u can do but what do u do if zerg scouts ur 2ports ? like its like saying hey look zergs builds queens and like to be really greedy, i can build 2factory with reactor after expanding and making 16 hellions before moving out. the hellions are used to kill everything and then u can transition easily into both bio or mech. like seriously its about the same you guys forget PDD blocks queen shots long enough for banshees to kill them. it also blocks spores. Even if Zerg scouts your 2port, what can he do? build more spores?? build more queens? go mutas?? Every scenario, even if he scouts 2port you still force units, force less drones, also PDD blocks spores and queens. Thus if it is unscouted you can effectively PDD at the third base while banshees reign supreme as well as kill off the creep. I believe this is a POSSIBLE solution, not a standard game alternattive. If iS.Pyre, a Terran PRO-gamer says his build works, then i have to believe him because he has obviously been using it to some degree of success. By the time you get that rolling the zerg is either teching to infestors or he already has them out. Yes your PDD will block queen and spore shots, but they won't block fungals. Or by the time that attack hits he Spire is about ready. You also have tunnel vision if you think Muta's aren't the solution to this, while PDDs do block muta attacks, a mass of mutas has so much attack speed that they will deplete that PDD energy in record time, after your raven is dead your banshees are dead. iS.Pyre must have been lucky to run into zergs that had no clue how to defend that, but if zergs see it often enough it won't take long for them to incorporate some easy responses into their play. And by the way, with 6 queens its even easy to defend 3 banshees with 1 PDD, you just transfuse between queens and spore if necessary, your PDD will run out of energy before the queens run out of transfuses. No your wrong. zerg wont have infestors by that time. you dont even know the timing of the build so dont say infestors will be out.You also probobly didnt read that the transition from this is MECH. thats right! Thors beat mutalisks right? yes they get slayed. Oh my god, even better! So you delay your mech upgrades, your mech production and your timings so you can get 3 Banshees and 1 Raven that will do absolutely nothing to the zerg? Oh man if I was the zerg I'd just build 1 extra spore at each base and maybe 1 queen from each hatch while teching as usual and going to the standard anti-mech response of mass roaches and prepping overlord drops. Seriously stop talking about Pyre as if he is some kind of Terran revolutionist, he is just lucky he has yet to meet a zerg to properly scout him and also properly prepare for it. I mean, for crying out loud he is playing on the US server, which everyone agrees is leaps and bounds bellow the EU and Korean servers in terms of quality. he plays on KR too lol stop judging the kid. and if you listened to what i said, PDD blocks spores and queens. Forcing queens and spores IS something believe it or not. even if you do NO damage as in 0, you still kill the creep which is huge in my opinion. iv seen him do the build just now, it WORKS. proofs in the pudding , stop trying to argue that it is a bad build, because it is still largely unexplored. Mech is actually an amazing transition out of the 2port build if i must say so myself. Of course with most pressures you sacrifice some things, but if this 2port build can hold off a roach ling attack in itself, then it wouldnt hinder much tech and production because the zerg hindered his by going for a roach atttack as well. It IS viable because i JUST saw it work! even if one game doesnt prove much atleast it can be explored more to see its weaknesses. Then the zerg goes for mutas and pyro dies. GG
Pyre has thors at that point assuming mutas were a response to banshees. If zerg went mutas instead of infestor then it becomes a problem. But the metagame these days doesnt favor mutas too much so its not that much of a risk. If you want to play super safe just build turret in each mineral line.
ALL im saying is that the build is yet to be explored so why is there so much hate against it?
Iv seen it work and have seen him do the build on his stream.
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On June 22 2012 07:01 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:55 andropopp wrote:On June 22 2012 06:50 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 22 2012 06:46 andropopp wrote:On June 22 2012 06:40 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 22 2012 06:34 andropopp wrote:On June 22 2012 06:16 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. That still doesn't solve the core problem. This "do damage early or die in the late game" is something that is inherently imbalanced. It justifies Terrans having proportionately strong early and mid game timings yet at the same time is a complete justification for Terran tier 3 being next to useless in TvZ and TvP. The changes that have been made to Protoss and Zerg over the last few patches have all addressed their issues of reaching the late game, now it's much safer and easier for them to reach their late game units they build towards all game. Meanwhile Terrans reach their peak combat effectiveness in the mid game. Ravens, Battlecruisers and Thors are just not anywhere near as useful as what the other races have available at the same tech level. Terrans can't build towards a superior army composition in the late game, because their midgame army composition of heavy bio, or heavy bio with siege tanks is the most effective army composition Terrans can field. i disagree with you on terrans having a weak lategame. I think thats an illusion created by the other weaknesses of terran, such as the weakness of not being able to play a greedy nr 15 style safely. I think ravens, BC's, and thors ARE strong but the reason they seem weak is because in order for terran to get them on the same level of zerg they need to play "greedy NR 15 style" which is extremely weak to any zerg aggression while zergs essentially are able to play that style safely and destroy what makes TvZ seem so horrible right now is terran is forced to focus on their midgame strength much more intensely just to survive, while the zerg can get to their endgame faster while sacrificing midgame strength for more economy and still being safe from all-ins. Terran cannot do that. Plus most terrans are also sacrificing economy early trying to deal with creep early game or to pressure early game, making the terran even weaker lategame because he sacrificed economy early. This is not the terrans fault really he just feels he has to do something to stop that creep. I think the true terran lategame can actually kill zergs lategame or at least contest with it equally. Terran just has no safe greedy economic way to get there, but zerg does. I believe if a terran and a zerg both said "NR 15" and did greedy builds and took 3 fast bases (thats about how long it takes to get 3 bases with lots of lategame tech thrown in plus required lategame production, 15mins. zerg will have a fourth but it wont be too operational at that point) the terran could be on an even footing as the zerg and compete with the zerg lategame even if he let the zerg put creep on the entire map by 15 minutes. But that is a unrealistic scenario. In real games the terran needs to make alot of midgame strength to not die to all-in's, while the zerg can pump pure economy realistically and always be safe from anything. and the midgame strength the terran does create has realistically zero ability to pressure the zerg effectively and even trying to pressure the zerg with that army is usually suicide the zerg produces just enough to roll you over and now your super behind in economy Yeah we saw MKP beat stephano with early pressure but DRG destroyed the same early pressure. It really looked to me like stephano made huge mistakes that game, MKP made almost no blunders while stephano was slower than he could be. If the zerg makes big mistakes and the terran makes no mistakes, terran can win. But the terran cant force the zerg to do like that, its the zerg thats beating himself, not the terran thats beating the zerg. The terran can only play perfectly and make zero mistakes and hope the zerg messes up and if the zerg doesnt mess up its gg. think about this terran lategame army 6 BC 36 6 thor 36 6 raven 12 3ghosts 6 4tank 12 19 vikings 38 3 planetary fortresses at each expansion to defend ling runbys thats 140food. terran can hang with 60scv's lategame thanks to 2 orbitals/ mules (while the rest of the CC's would be used to put 3 planetarys at each expansion) i think you would be hard pressed to find a 140food zerg army that trades nicely with that army as long as you make sure to spread the vikings to avoid fungals. while using that army the trick is you would want to keep your tanks out of siegemode if your enemy has too much broodlords or ultras, but use siegemode if the enemy has tons of lings/roaches and low amounts of broodlords. Broodlords counter siegemode too hard, but tanks for 3food (while being super expensive for 3food) are actually strong out of siegemode but have the option of using it to counter mass ling/baneling in battle your micro focus is to spread your whole army before the battle very well to avoid fungal/ultralisk splash as best as you can. Remember to keep your ravens and ghosts slightly behind your army protecting them from getting NP'ed. At the start of the battle quickly launch 6 yamatos on the ultralisks or broods then fly in your ravens and launch 6 HSM's on the corrupters. During the period of you using yamato/HSM the zerg is likely spamming fungal at this point. Then run in your ghosts and spam snipe on infestors (to counter NP. NP would be very strong against thors but 3ghosts should deal with it since snipe has a longrange to spam snipe on those infestors). During the hectic battle considering the ravens fly in to launch missiles seconds after the battle starts, this should hopefully greatly reduce the chance of the zerg getting off a successful NP on a raven due to the fact that the zerg is likely trying to micro off and score multiple good fungals during this time as each good fungal can do 200+ damage per click (as much as yamato) then after the corrupters/broodlords are dead, land your vikings and clean up the rest I really dont think theres a 140food zerg army in the unit tester that you could find that fights that terran lategame army well. im assuming the perfect zerg lategame army has both ultras and broodlords with infestors and corrupters and whatever else problem is in a real game the zerg proceedes to remax in 20 seconds with several extra 200food roach armies then the terran gets rolled over anyway long story short if terran HAD A WAY to safely get their lategame that wasnt suicide and low economy compared to the zerg, they could be good Dude you're theorycrafting so hard right now you've completely forgotten how Terran production works. Zerg and Protoss late game are both great because they complement their midgame army composition. You make Collosus out of the Robotics Facility and everything else you need comes from Warp Gates, and everything from Warp Gates can be reinforced quickly. Everything shares upgrades from the Forge. Everything Zerg makes, from the lowliest Zergling to the mighty Ultralisk comes from larvae. The time it takes for Zergs to tech, is the amount of time it takes for them to be able to mass produce any unit they want. Terran late game however, comes from Factories and Starports and a majority of the units you listed in there requires tech labs which means only a single unit can be produced from it at a time. Each of those factories or starports costs 100 gas, each tech lab costs another 25. are you disagree'ing with me or agree'ing with me everything you said is 100% EXACTLY what i was trying to say. THATS MY POINT, the terran is FORCED to not be able to play a "greedy NR 15 style" and he cannot actually get super lategame tech and economy while skipping midgame, but the zerg can my point was that, HYPOTHETICALLY, if the zerg and terran both said "nr 15" then the terran could enter the endgame at an equal level of the zerg because he can just skip barracks/bio completely and go for pure endgame and mech/air upgrades and zero bio upgrades but the game is not like that. the terran cannot play a "nr 15" style because he would get obliterated by any light aggression the zerg felt like doing
The amount of time and resources it takes to max out on an army composition like the one you're proposing is completely unrealistic compared to what it would cost the other races to do the same, and what's more is that they don't need to since their late game units mesh well with the units they're already using from the previous tiers.
Broodlings share upgrades with Zerglings and Ultralisks, Collosus share upgrades with Archons and Zealots. Battlecruisers Thors and Ghosts all require a separate set of upgrades.
Do you see how far'fetched the playstyle you're talking about is yet?
again.. are you agree'ing with me or disagree'ing with me? I cant even tell what you just said IS EXACTLY MY POINT my point if you even read that post was that only in a hypothetical scenario where both players say "alright NR 15" can the terran actually enter the lategame on an even footing with the zerg. other than that terran is forced to sacrifice economy and build up low-tech while the zerg is maxing pure economy and getting their high-tech goodies You're arguing that Terran late game isn't bad because if it's massed together in a completely unrealistic scenario it's worthwhile. correct. Im saying that people believe terran lategame is weak because terran is not allowed to get it the way a zerg can get it. So this makes people see a false illussion that ravens/thors/bc's are weak, when in reality its just terran as a race that is weak but not those units So people think the units are weak, when in reality terran as a race is weak because terran cannot play the way a zerg can. Im just saying thors / bc's dont need to be buffed, TERRAN AS A RACE needs to be buffed. its not that terran has no lategame options, its that TERRAN AS A RACE has no lategame options. I know it sounds weird but zerg as a race can play greedy NR 15 straight to lategame and be safe from all-ins, but terran as a race cant, thats the problem
I'm arguing that Terran late game is ONLY good when it's massed together in a completely scenario, because the late game units in the Terran arsenal do not complement the mid game army compositions Terrans can field in the way that Protoss and Zerg late game units can.
what your saying only applies to the real world where terran is forced to get their mid-game stuff in my fake hypothetical world which i was basing my hypothetical argument on, terran isnt forced to get their midgame stuff so theres no problem but the real world is real, and my hypothetical world is fake. So that means the problem is real, which i am agree'ing with you on, Im not saying the problem doesnt exist, im just saying it doesnt exist in my fake hypothetical world i was basing my argument on. So i agree with you that the problem does exist. Now how can blizzard fix the problem? I dont know. my point was that terran lategame units dont need to be buffed to fix the problem, instead terran as a race needs to be buffed to fix the problem I don't see how you can make the argument that at least some Terran late game units don't need to be buffed when by your own argument you state that the only time they can be worthwhile is if they are massed together in an unrealistic unit composition. I'm talking simple things like removing 250mm cannons from Thors and their energy bar with it, making them less vulnerable to Feedback, giving Terran armies a great tanking unit in the late game to support their bio forces. Or nerfing the damage on HSM and lowering its energy cost and increasing its range, to make it better as a complementary attack but not so devastating when massed together with 8-10 Ravens. Changing Snipe so that it does less damage vs massive but keeps the damage it had vs everything else prior to the patch. Simple things like those would go a long way in making Terran late game worth using.
I actually think theres some small problems with terran lategame that could warrant small buffs, but nothing too massive and still terran as a race needs to be fixed for terran lategame to be fixed
1) I actually agree that thors should have their energy bar removed, or feedback should deal zero damage to massive, I think thats a problem because mathematically protoss is WAY TOO STRONG against BC/thor with feedback. But zerg doesnt have feedback. I said thors/bc's dont need to be "buffed" against zerg, but against protoss i feel they are definitely too weak to feedback
2) Ghosts. It was definitely overpowered that 2food ghosts could unleash ~400 damage in seconds. So that meant 2ghosts for 4food could obliterate a 6food ultralisk. Blizzard halfed snipes damage and now with the nerfed snipe 2food ghosts can unleash 200 damage in seconds. Which seems more fair because the average fungal growth used by infestors does about 200+ damage, meaning a single 2food infestor with a SINGLE FUNGAL will be dealing 200+ damage in seconds and infestors are also only a 2food unit.
So the ghost nerf brought them down to infestors level. The problem is its 10000x easier to micro 4 infestors to launch 4 fungals dealing 200+ damage per fungal, than it is to micro ghosts to launch snipes and deal 200 damage per ghost.
So maybe snipe should be made autocast against any unit with more than 35 max health. that way ghosts would get to deal 200 damage as a 2food unit, but terran wouldnt need to micro it
I honestly think snipe should be made autocast, either that or ghosts should get a "super snipe" that maybe costs 80 energy and deals 80 flat damage, that way 3 clicks of super snipe would kill a broodlord. The nerfed snipe is now worthless as a damage source its only real use in a endgame scenario would be used as a counter to templars or NP. NP is a very hard counter to thor/BC, but a terran only need 3 ghosts to completely shut down NP and snipe the infestors trying to use the low range 7 range NP. A zerg using NP instead of fungals would be acting stupid, so getting ghosts with the nerfed snipe is now really only viable in ZvT as a way to counter NP. You wont be sniping or EMP'ing infestors before a battle if a good zerg is controlling them, but you CAN snipe infestors as a counter to NP even if a good zerg is controlling them, so that means ghosts in ZvT are pretty much now nothing more than a NP counter allowing thors and BC's to be viable.
right now fungal deals 200 damage per click, and snipe does 25 damage per click. This makes fungal MUCH MUCH better than snipe in terms of DAMAGE-PER-APM. this is why fungal is so much better than snipe in a real game even though technically 2food ghosts on paper should be able to unleash their 200 damage from snipes, it takes too much APM to do it
if snipe was made autocast or if a super snipe was added increasing the damage-per-click of snipe. then ghosts could return as a source of damage and rival the strength of infestors even with a damage output of only 200 per ghost instead of 400 per ghost
3) HSM's damage-per-click is almost equal to infestors, the problem is HSM costs twice the energy of fungal and 1 infestor can launch 2 fungals, and a raven can launch only 1 HSM. but the power of HSM is that the damage is instant and can stack but fungal damage is over time. I think that strength of HSM outshines its weakness, and the main reason terrans think HSM is weak is because of other problems with the race and not HSM itself.
Any buffs given to HSM would require nerfs to other areas of HSM. I think HSM is equal in power to fungal, and even if HSM was replaced with fungal, and infestors and ravens both had default fungal, trust me ravens would still "suck" in the matchup and infestors would still be good in the matchup.
so my main point with all of this is terrans keep saying ravens/thors/bc's are these terrible units... well really? what should be done then? should they be buffed?
my argument is no, they shouldnt be buffed other than maybe a small fix like making feedback deal no damage to massive.... but when it comes to buffing spells like HSM I say no that shouldnt be buffed because that would make it better than fungal, bad balance
instead terran as a race should be buffed. It is the problems with the races that causes HSM to suck and fungal to be good,
HSM could be straight up replaced with fungal and and ravens could cost 50 less gas and ravens would still suck and infestors would still be good. theres a problem with the races, not HSM
I think very small buffs to thors/bc's such as taking less damage from feedback is definitely a balance issue, and maybe a small buff to snipe could be in order to bring it to fungals level... but my point is all the terrans out there saying "omg thor/bc/ravens suck so much" should think about what they're saying... because what does that REALLY MEAN? does it mean thors/bc/ravens should receive massive buffs? I say nope... the problem lies somewhere in the race design, not in the units design
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On June 22 2012 06:38 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:18 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:16 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. ok theres a few builds like that u can do but what do u do if zerg scouts ur 2ports ? like its like saying hey look zergs builds queens and like to be really greedy, i can build 2factory with reactor after expanding and making 16 hellions before moving out. the hellions are used to kill everything and then u can transition easily into both bio or mech. like seriously its about the same you guys forget PDD blocks queen shots long enough for banshees to kill them. it also blocks spores. Even if Zerg scouts your 2port, what can he do? build more spores?? build more queens? go mutas?? Every scenario, even if he scouts 2port you still force units, force less drones, also PDD blocks spores and queens. Thus if it is unscouted you can effectively PDD at the third base while banshees reign supreme as well as kill off the creep. I believe this is a POSSIBLE solution, not a standard game alternattive. If iS.Pyre, a Terran PRO-gamer says his build works, then i have to believe him because he has obviously been using it to some degree of success. By the time you get that rolling the zerg is either teching to infestors or he already has them out. Yes your PDD will block queen and spore shots, but they won't block fungals. Or by the time that attack hits he Spire is about ready. You also have tunnel vision if you think Muta's aren't the solution to this, while PDDs do block muta attacks, a mass of mutas has so much attack speed that they will deplete that PDD energy in record time, after your raven is dead your banshees are dead. iS.Pyre must have been lucky to run into zergs that had no clue how to defend that, but if zergs see it often enough it won't take long for them to incorporate some easy responses into their play. And by the way, with 6 queens its even easy to defend 3 banshees with 1 PDD, you just transfuse between queens and spore if necessary, your PDD will run out of energy before the queens run out of transfuses.
If zerg wants to be really cute he can ff his queens on a friendly ground target and deplete the pdd even faser with the double ground attack! I did some testing earlier. 4 queens vs 2 banshees and a pdd. Even without that cute ground fire trick and transfuses the zergs only trades 2 queens for 2 banshees. With transfuses he does not even have to lose a single queen.
Banshee raven only works against mass queen if the zerg fucks up hard.
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4713 Posts
On June 22 2012 07:17 SyrZulu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 07:04 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 06:55 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:38 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 06:18 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:16 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. ok theres a few builds like that u can do but what do u do if zerg scouts ur 2ports ? like its like saying hey look zergs builds queens and like to be really greedy, i can build 2factory with reactor after expanding and making 16 hellions before moving out. the hellions are used to kill everything and then u can transition easily into both bio or mech. like seriously its about the same you guys forget PDD blocks queen shots long enough for banshees to kill them. it also blocks spores. Even if Zerg scouts your 2port, what can he do? build more spores?? build more queens? go mutas?? Every scenario, even if he scouts 2port you still force units, force less drones, also PDD blocks spores and queens. Thus if it is unscouted you can effectively PDD at the third base while banshees reign supreme as well as kill off the creep. I believe this is a POSSIBLE solution, not a standard game alternattive. If iS.Pyre, a Terran PRO-gamer says his build works, then i have to believe him because he has obviously been using it to some degree of success. By the time you get that rolling the zerg is either teching to infestors or he already has them out. Yes your PDD will block queen and spore shots, but they won't block fungals. Or by the time that attack hits he Spire is about ready. You also have tunnel vision if you think Muta's aren't the solution to this, while PDDs do block muta attacks, a mass of mutas has so much attack speed that they will deplete that PDD energy in record time, after your raven is dead your banshees are dead. iS.Pyre must have been lucky to run into zergs that had no clue how to defend that, but if zergs see it often enough it won't take long for them to incorporate some easy responses into their play. And by the way, with 6 queens its even easy to defend 3 banshees with 1 PDD, you just transfuse between queens and spore if necessary, your PDD will run out of energy before the queens run out of transfuses. No your wrong. zerg wont have infestors by that time. you dont even know the timing of the build so dont say infestors will be out.You also probobly didnt read that the transition from this is MECH. thats right! Thors beat mutalisks right? yes they get slayed. Oh my god, even better! So you delay your mech upgrades, your mech production and your timings so you can get 3 Banshees and 1 Raven that will do absolutely nothing to the zerg? Oh man if I was the zerg I'd just build 1 extra spore at each base and maybe 1 queen from each hatch while teching as usual and going to the standard anti-mech response of mass roaches and prepping overlord drops. Seriously stop talking about Pyre as if he is some kind of Terran revolutionist, he is just lucky he has yet to meet a zerg to properly scout him and also properly prepare for it. I mean, for crying out loud he is playing on the US server, which everyone agrees is leaps and bounds bellow the EU and Korean servers in terms of quality. he plays on KR too lol stop judging the kid. and if you listened to what i said, PDD blocks spores and queens. Forcing queens and spores IS something believe it or not. even if you do NO damage as in 0, you still kill the creep which is huge in my opinion. iv seen him do the build just now, it WORKS. proofs in the pudding , stop trying to argue that it is a bad build, because it is still largely unexplored. Mech is actually an amazing transition out of the 2port build if i must say so myself. Of course with most pressures you sacrifice some things, but if this 2port build can hold off a roach ling attack in itself, then it wouldnt hinder much tech and production because the zerg hindered his by going for a roach atttack as well.
One or two games you saw on his stream are in no way, shape or form conclusive evidence that the build works, it needs to be tested in hundreds of games and against the BEST zergs in the world. Seriously stop desperately trying to defend the build, unless you can consistently defeat zergs like Stephano, Symbol, Nerchio, DRG, NesTea, Losira, Leenock to name only a couple, you can't consider the build viable.
I don't care if it worked on someone who is a pro gamer zerg but has actually never made top 16 at an MLG, DH etc.
And again, how is the 2 port banshee accomplishing anything? With the extra 2 or 3 queens the zerg makes to defend against it, he will spread that creep faster then you can slow it any more.
Do you know what top pro gamer I saw try something similar in Code S? Quantic TheStC, a much more recognized and accomplished player, his opponent NesTea, the result? NesTea rolled over TheStC, the terran didn't even make a dent in the creep spread.
Do you seriously thing Pyre is on the same level of TheStC? Or that his adversaries are on the same level of NesTea?
Stop kidding yourself.
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my wish: redesign thor into a giant fucking robot firebat.
![[image loading]](http://www.japantrends.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/fire-robot.jpg)
that'll teach those mass ling/zealot compositions
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On June 22 2012 07:29 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 07:17 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 07:04 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 06:55 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:38 Destructicon wrote:On June 22 2012 06:18 SyrZulu wrote:On June 22 2012 06:16 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 22 2012 06:11 iS.Pyre wrote:
In my opinion, the best way to approach this new meta game is to start using strategies that can punish the Zerg for being very greedy early on. What exactly is the new Zerg meta game? Zergs like to depend on queens to defend their front, while taking a quick third and saturating three bases before making their army/tech units. One thing I noticed is that Zergs these days started to opt not to get mutalisks. A solution build that I came up with is creating two starports after expanding and making a raven + 3 banshees before moving out. The banshees + ravens are used to both snipe queens and kill off creep, and even, kill the third base (possibly). From here, you can transition into mech or bio comfortably. ok theres a few builds like that u can do but what do u do if zerg scouts ur 2ports ? like its like saying hey look zergs builds queens and like to be really greedy, i can build 2factory with reactor after expanding and making 16 hellions before moving out. the hellions are used to kill everything and then u can transition easily into both bio or mech. like seriously its about the same you guys forget PDD blocks queen shots long enough for banshees to kill them. it also blocks spores. Even if Zerg scouts your 2port, what can he do? build more spores?? build more queens? go mutas?? Every scenario, even if he scouts 2port you still force units, force less drones, also PDD blocks spores and queens. Thus if it is unscouted you can effectively PDD at the third base while banshees reign supreme as well as kill off the creep. I believe this is a POSSIBLE solution, not a standard game alternattive. If iS.Pyre, a Terran PRO-gamer says his build works, then i have to believe him because he has obviously been using it to some degree of success. By the time you get that rolling the zerg is either teching to infestors or he already has them out. Yes your PDD will block queen and spore shots, but they won't block fungals. Or by the time that attack hits he Spire is about ready. You also have tunnel vision if you think Muta's aren't the solution to this, while PDDs do block muta attacks, a mass of mutas has so much attack speed that they will deplete that PDD energy in record time, after your raven is dead your banshees are dead. iS.Pyre must have been lucky to run into zergs that had no clue how to defend that, but if zergs see it often enough it won't take long for them to incorporate some easy responses into their play. And by the way, with 6 queens its even easy to defend 3 banshees with 1 PDD, you just transfuse between queens and spore if necessary, your PDD will run out of energy before the queens run out of transfuses. No your wrong. zerg wont have infestors by that time. you dont even know the timing of the build so dont say infestors will be out.You also probobly didnt read that the transition from this is MECH. thats right! Thors beat mutalisks right? yes they get slayed. Oh my god, even better! So you delay your mech upgrades, your mech production and your timings so you can get 3 Banshees and 1 Raven that will do absolutely nothing to the zerg? Oh man if I was the zerg I'd just build 1 extra spore at each base and maybe 1 queen from each hatch while teching as usual and going to the standard anti-mech response of mass roaches and prepping overlord drops. Seriously stop talking about Pyre as if he is some kind of Terran revolutionist, he is just lucky he has yet to meet a zerg to properly scout him and also properly prepare for it. I mean, for crying out loud he is playing on the US server, which everyone agrees is leaps and bounds bellow the EU and Korean servers in terms of quality. he plays on KR too lol stop judging the kid. and if you listened to what i said, PDD blocks spores and queens. Forcing queens and spores IS something believe it or not. even if you do NO damage as in 0, you still kill the creep which is huge in my opinion. iv seen him do the build just now, it WORKS. proofs in the pudding , stop trying to argue that it is a bad build, because it is still largely unexplored. Mech is actually an amazing transition out of the 2port build if i must say so myself. Of course with most pressures you sacrifice some things, but if this 2port build can hold off a roach ling attack in itself, then it wouldnt hinder much tech and production because the zerg hindered his by going for a roach atttack as well. One or two games you saw on his stream are in no way, shape or form conclusive evidence that the build works, it needs to be tested in hundreds of games and against the BEST zergs in the world. Seriously stop desperately trying to defend the build, unless you can consistently defeat zergs like Stephano, Symbol, Nerchio, DRG, NesTea, Losira, Leenock to name only a couple, you can't consider the build viable. I don't care if it worked on someone who is a pro gamer zerg but has actually never made top 16 at an MLG, DH etc. And again, how is the 2 port banshee accomplishing anything? With the extra 2 or 3 queens the zerg makes to defend against it, he will spread that creep faster then you can slow it any more. Do you know what top pro gamer I saw try something similar in Code S? Quantic TheStC, a much more recognized and accomplished player, his opponent NesTea, the result? NesTea rolled over TheStC, the terran didn't even make a dent in the creep spread. Do you seriously thing Pyre is on the same level of TheStC? Or that his adversaries are on the same level of NesTea? Stop kidding yourself.
Im just saying that the build CAN be viable. and in my other post i addres the fact that 1 or 2 games does NOT mean the build is super good or anything. I said it has to be explored more before people start attacking it. Pyre 2port sounds interesting to me so i want to hear how it can work and why it works not why it should not even be tested out. And your point about the STC is also countering your own argument as that in itself is also only 1 game but i do understand your point. Nestea is also a much better player than STC so it shouldnt be suprising he lost no matter what build he tried. Nestea is just a stronger player overall.
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