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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 21 2012 23:41 Destructicon wrote:To add to your post. DRG in an interview basically said that GSL is the exception to the rules as far as current balance trends go, because people have so much time to prepare, if they study you hard enough they can counter not only your builds but your entire style. The terrans that made it trough are probably the best all around because they have so many builds/styles that it is hard to prepare for them, and they are also exceptionally good at studying their opponents. However, if you look away from the GSL and look at all the other tournaments like DH, MLG, etc you see the trends of terran obscurity and zerg or protoss domination.
Yep, and even Korean online tournaments, such as TSL qualifiers, or Playhem where Koreans play regularly, we don't even see Terran. Saying GSL is the only thing that counts is like saying 30km Marathon is the only way to judge the best runner of the world, 100m, 200m, 500m sprint don't matter at all.
The sad thing is there's no other tournament in the world right now use the same longass format as GSL so that Terran can take advantage of.
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I feel really really bad for pro Terrans right now, they have to play practically perfect games to remotely stand a chance, and even so. Im back to a 50% win rate in TvZ cause im cheesing my head off  .
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Hi guys!
I have a question concerning the impact of the queen patch to ZvZ. Some post mentioned a positive impact of these changes to zerg's mirror.
So are there zergs in this thread (or any others) who feel qualified to give me some insight on the matter? TY!
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Thanks guys! I'm going to make more queens now.
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On June 21 2012 23:59 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 23:53 FakeDeath wrote:On June 21 2012 23:48 Zarahtra wrote:On June 21 2012 23:39 Ragnarork wrote:On June 21 2012 23:36 ChriseC wrote:
i feel like the queen buff itself is a good change cuz it makes zergplay more stable, opens up the game alot more and takes away some random factors. i hope, if terrans still struggle vs zerg they nerf something else and dont revert the queen buff. Well, the problem is, either they give to the terrans some options to put pressure/catch up in term of macro/adress the Terran T3 problem, or they nerf the way zerg macro works... I don't think it's strictly limited to this, but these are the only options i see right now.. Tbh the best way would be really to address the lategame issue that both terran and toss have vZ at the same time, since they are very similar. Then Blizzard would probably need to tweak toss 2 base allins vZ(since they are pretty much where all PvZ wins come from atm, if more come from lategame it will need to cost midgame). Then TvP would be the only issue left, which is a lot more complex issue(well basically the core unit combs of both races are just so radically different). What do you mean tweak toss 2 base all-in? Kind to elaborate? Make them weaker, in response to more balanced lategame. Buffing toss lategame would(well should) make them win more lategame and as a response, assuming the MU is balanced, it'd make zerg UP in the MU. Hence it'd need to reduce the midgame wins of toss. Best way to effect only PvZ would probably be messing with the immo, making it better for defense purpose(so stephano pushes would be easier to hold), while making it worse for allins.
Toss 2base all-ins aren't OP, they're the definition of a metagame shift. Protoss all-ins probably 80% of the time against Zerg. For some reason, though, Zerg players keep playing blindly, greedily, and by assuming that the Protoss is just going to play some Colossus build from 6 months ago. Immortal/Sentry all-ins are pretty hard to hold, but they're also a very costly all-in, and they're also extremely obvious. Zerg needs to actually be making units in advance, not just when they see the push moving across the map. If they did this, I don't think the PvZ winrate would be above 30%.
Meanwhile, in the lategame, PvZ is essentially unwinnable unless the Zerg makes an egregious error. Once sufficient numbers of Brood Lords backed by Spines are out, the Protoss can no longer win unless the Zerg does something incredibly stupid. This is the entire reason that Protoss players send so much time perfecting their all-ins. Give us a viable lategame, and we'll stop all-inning every game. It's that simple.
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As a Protoss, I feel I can comment without bias on this specific topic. From all the games I have seen, I would agree that yes, the range buff was an outright buff in every way to ZvT, giving them a cheaper and larva-free method of accomplishing multiple things - spread creep rapidly, protect said creep from anything early game, defend mineral lines, prevent scouting, have readily available anti-air, and the obvious -- larva inject. That said, Hellions used to nicely fill quite a few roles - scouting, harassing mineral lines, denying/containing creep spread; altogether keeping Zerg honest.
Judging from what I have seen, Terran either are unable to, or haven't figured out how to, keep Zerg honest. And without a way to do this, obviously Zergs are going to larva inject and spend said larvae with impunity, as all those larvae are going to drones.
Obviously this won't fly, and if Terran are truly unable to slow down creep spread and force larva units early on, then TvZ is broken. Period. But I highly doubt this is the case. As you said, Terrans have traditionally been fairly slow at adapting to patches (most likely due to the fact that they started out at the beginning as an unbelievably broken race and thus required a lot of changes, and since playing to win is the name of the game, Terran obviously relied on broken stuff and have trouble when it's fixed), but I think eventually they will figure it out.
What it will be is the big question. If whatever it is puts too much cost and onus on Terran compared to Zerg, obviously it wouldn't be fair and the range buff would have to be removed, nerfed, or changed in some way. But Hellion openers were almost as much of a no-brainer pre-patch as multiple Queen openers are in the current patch, so maybe Terran should have to use more than one type of (no gas, reactor-available at that) unit to accomplish all of the tasks that the Hellion did, and then Queens alone would not be able to do the trick for Zerg either. Perhaps taking a page out of the Marauder Hellion All-In book and opening Hellion tech lab and sending out a group of marauders with the hellions, allowing them to deal with the queens (and low numbers of spines) while Hellions can deal with lings. I know it slows you down more than simply reactor units, but it would probably do the job if some good Terran players worked out a build and tweaked out the ratio to keep gas cost down.
Adapting is all you really can do pending a change/patch that may not even be coming. If something is figured out, great, and if not, hopefully at least something better will be figured out to give them a good change while Blizzard take time to realize the change didn't work (if it is discovered that Terran can't hang) and works out a fix. But in the mean-time, you gotta go with what you've got. Protoss had to deal with uphill match-ups since release until recently, and slowly it got better. Terrans are figuring out the late-game and it'll most likely be balanced within 3 months, if not slightly Terran-favored, and Protoss players are beginning to figure out, albeit slowly, how to play against 3 hatch b4 gas, so hopefully Terran will figure out early-game against Zerg, because nobody wants to play against Broodlord Infestor!
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On June 22 2012 00:08 Tryagain4free wrote:
Hi guys!
I have a question concerning the impact of the queen patch to ZvZ. Some post mentioned a positive impact of these changes to zerg's mirror.
So are there zergs in this thread (or any others) who feel qualified to give me some insight on the matter? TY!
Since the patch, zergs literally all now go for hatch first instead of regular 14/14 since the queen added range with spines help deal with banelings with much better at the early game.
That why's ZvZ is much better to watch these days.I am a mid-high masters zerg
The queen 5 range is good because it's brings more macro-oriented play in ZvZ and ZvT and less gimmicky play and overall reward players with better macro mechanics.
This is good IMO for the game.
However,this brings most of the game into the late game which Z excels at.
Broodlords+Infestor against Terran who seem to struggle as of late.
But one thing i see Terran not making is the ghost in lategame ZvT.I often even see more ravens than ghosts now in lategame in ZvT.Weird though even in competitve games in pro plays, we rarely ever see ghosts.
They can be good since Bls+Infestor is only good with infestors support and corruptor support.
Infestor is the main key.I feel Terran should be making ghosts.
Maybe viking production with a few ghost to push Bls+back or snipe Infestor when they come to fungal your army?
But then this is my opinion from a zerg perspective.
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On June 21 2012 23:50 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 23:48 Zarahtra wrote:On June 21 2012 23:39 Ragnarork wrote:On June 21 2012 23:36 ChriseC wrote:
i feel like the queen buff itself is a good change cuz it makes zergplay more stable, opens up the game alot more and takes away some random factors. i hope, if terrans still struggle vs zerg they nerf something else and dont revert the queen buff. Well, the problem is, either they give to the terrans some options to put pressure/catch up in term of macro/adress the Terran T3 problem, or they nerf the way zerg macro works... I don't think it's strictly limited to this, but these are the only options i see right now.. Tbh the best way would be really to address the lategame issue that both terran and toss have vZ at the same time, since they are very similar. Then Blizzard would probably need to tweak toss 2 base allins vZ(since they are pretty much where all PvZ wins come from atm, if more come from lategame it will need to cost midgame). Then TvP would be the only issue left, which is a lot more complex issue(well basically the core unit combs of both races are just so radically different). Sigh...every race should not be 100% focused on the late game
But Protoss and Zerg are focused on the mid to late game... Every time I watch streams and tournaments, the majority of time it's a TvP or TvZ in the late game, Zerg or Prtoss would win.
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On June 22 2012 00:19 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 23:59 Zarahtra wrote:On June 21 2012 23:53 FakeDeath wrote:On June 21 2012 23:48 Zarahtra wrote:On June 21 2012 23:39 Ragnarork wrote:On June 21 2012 23:36 ChriseC wrote:
i feel like the queen buff itself is a good change cuz it makes zergplay more stable, opens up the game alot more and takes away some random factors. i hope, if terrans still struggle vs zerg they nerf something else and dont revert the queen buff. Well, the problem is, either they give to the terrans some options to put pressure/catch up in term of macro/adress the Terran T3 problem, or they nerf the way zerg macro works... I don't think it's strictly limited to this, but these are the only options i see right now.. Tbh the best way would be really to address the lategame issue that both terran and toss have vZ at the same time, since they are very similar. Then Blizzard would probably need to tweak toss 2 base allins vZ(since they are pretty much where all PvZ wins come from atm, if more come from lategame it will need to cost midgame). Then TvP would be the only issue left, which is a lot more complex issue(well basically the core unit combs of both races are just so radically different). What do you mean tweak toss 2 base all-in? Kind to elaborate? Make them weaker, in response to more balanced lategame. Buffing toss lategame would(well should) make them win more lategame and as a response, assuming the MU is balanced, it'd make zerg UP in the MU. Hence it'd need to reduce the midgame wins of toss. Best way to effect only PvZ would probably be messing with the immo, making it better for defense purpose(so stephano pushes would be easier to hold), while making it worse for allins. Toss 2base all-ins aren't OP, they're the definition of a metagame shift. Protoss all-ins probably 80% of the time against Zerg. For some reason, though, Zerg players keep playing blindly, greedily, and by assuming that the Protoss is just going to play some Colossus build from 6 months ago. Immortal/Sentry all-ins are pretty hard to hold, but they're also a very costly all-in, and they're also extremely obvious. Zerg needs to actually be making units in advance, not just when they see the push moving across the map. If they did this, I don't think the PvZ winrate would be above 30%. Meanwhile, in the lategame, PvZ is essentially unwinnable unless the Zerg makes an egregious error. Once sufficient numbers of Brood Lords backed by Spines are out, the Protoss can no longer win unless the Zerg does something incredibly stupid. This is the entire reason that Protoss players send so much time perfecting their all-ins. Give us a viable lategame, and we'll stop all-inning every game. It's that simple.
Wait for HotS then. I don't see Blizz making major changes to toss now.
Toss got one thing to stop Bls+Infestor+Spine army.Vortex but then again it is a stupid gimmick skill to counter the Bls+Infestor.This is where i think Blizz fail in game design.
Relying solely on Vortex to counter Bls+Infestor is pretty bad for game balance and almost boring for entertainment value.
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Hey guys, it's impossible that Terrans could still figure out a way to deal with this problem against Zerg. After all, there's no precedent for Terrans complaining about an imbalance for a long period of time without trying out different options that later turned out to work. Not even when they cried that BL/infestor was OP after the fungal buff but HADN'T EVEN TRIED USING GHOSTS. Nope, what should have happened was Blizzard should have reversed the fungal buff within one month because lots of Terran pros were complaining and they hadn't found a solution.
Smarten up.
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On June 22 2012 00:22 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 00:08 Tryagain4free wrote:
Hi guys!
I have a question concerning the impact of the queen patch to ZvZ. Some post mentioned a positive impact of these changes to zerg's mirror.
So are there zergs in this thread (or any others) who feel qualified to give me some insight on the matter? TY!
Since the patch, zergs literally all now go for hatch first instead of regular 14/14 since the queen added range with spines help deal with banelings with much better at the early game. That why's ZvZ is much better to watch these days.I am a mid-high masters zerg The queen 5 range is good because it's brings more macro-oriented play in ZvZ and ZvT and less gimmicky play and overall reward players with better macro mechanics. This is good IMO for the game. However,this brings most of the game into the late game which Z excels at. Broodlords+Infestor against Terran who seem to struggle as of late. But one thing i see Terran not making is the ghost in lategame ZvT.I often even see more ravens than ghosts now in lategame in ZvT.Weird though even in competitve games in pro plays, we rarely ever see ghosts. They can be good since Bls+Infestor is only good with infestors support and corruptor support. Infestor is the main key.I feel Terran should be making ghosts. Maybe viking production with a few ghost to push Bls+back or snipe Infestor when they come to fungal your army? But then this is my opinion from a zerg perspective.
It's to hard to get the Infestors behind the Broodlords.
Infestor are too big to use EMP effectively ( you get 2 or 3 maximum )
Only thing Ghost do great in TvZ is nuke harass, for other thing they are quite bad. Having more marines, more marauders, more tanks more thors more viking is just always better than having ghost.
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On June 22 2012 00:32 Doodsmack wrote:
Hey guys, it's impossible that Terrans could still figure out a way to deal with this problem against Zerg. After all, there's no precedent for Terrans complaining about an imbalance for a long period of time without trying out different options that later turned out to work. Not even when they cried that BL/infestor was OP after the fungal buff but HADN'T EVEN TRIED USING GHOSTS. Nope, what should have happened was Blizzard should have reversed the fungal buff within one month because lots of Terran pros were complaining and they hadn't found a solution.
Smarten up.
ok ok man chill out, we'll start using a t3 unit against a hatch tech unit now NP! ok case closed... omg
you guys suggest the weirdest things in your search for an excuse that this buff has not screwed TvZ. Why would we have to build a t3 unit ( raven ghost whatever that costs mins+ gas , to stop your fuing hatch tech unit. i mean honestly.
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Blizzard must be proud of ruining one of the most (if not the most) balanced MU's pre-patch.
I doubt they'll revert the patch though. It would only show how embarrassingly wrong they were to begin with.
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Hey guys, it's impossible that Terrans could still figure out a way to deal with this problem against Zerg. After all, there's no precedent for Terrans complaining about an imbalance for a long period of time without trying out different options that later turned out to work. Not even when they cried that BL/infestor was OP after the fungal buff but HADN'T EVEN TRIED USING GHOSTS. Nope, what should have happened was Blizzard should have reversed the fungal buff within one month because lots of Terran pros were complaining and they hadn't found a solution.
The problem with Zerg is that Terran's and Protoss' entire gameplan revolves around "how do I deal with Broodlord / Infestor". The short answer is - you don't. Because frankly, Brood Lords are just as broken as reapers used to be with the difference that games generally didn't actually get to the point where there were Brood Lords so nobody really noticed.
In the case of Terran there is truly no way to deal with BL/Inf compositions especially if you consider there will be 80+ zerglings right behind it. You cannot trade effectively vs Zerg lategame as Terran thus the gameplan has always been "kill them before they get there" or "hurt them enough so they take ages to get there and kill them as they are transitioning". Since Blizz has been buffing Zerg early game over and over again both directly with the queen buff and indirectly by destroying all sorts of terran timings/strategies it's fairly easy for a zerg to get to Hive tech and get the free win.
In the case of Protoss at least they have Vortex but that's a 1-shot spell on a unit that you can have only 1 and cannot really be gotten reactively. It also somewhat relies on zerg being caught off-guard. So the more reliable alternative is to practice some 2-base all-in into perfection and win with that.
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At this point Blizzard should really consider buffing some terran units . And here are some examples of what could be made better without potentially being imbalanced .
Raven is too fucking expensive with it's upgrades to ever be utilized in TvZ . Freaking 100 minerals and 200 gas with a 125 energy HSM , which you need at least 2 upgrades to utilize . Compared to protoss's HT and zerg's infestors it is a fucking waste . The only use it has is to detect invisable units , but it's to expensive to be effective for even that . Lowering the energy of HSM missle by 25 and/or the mineral/gas cost and/or build time of Ravens could really help terrans utilize them .
Tanks are too supply and gas consuming to be used in mass . You invest a lot of minerals and a lot of gas for building them + supply depots and if they die , you can't ever remake them fast enough unless you are on 4 + bases , and even then it takes time . Lowering the supply would probably never happen , but they could lower their gas cost to 100 or build time by 5 seconds or something .
Ghost was over nerfed . Snipe is still good against HT and infestor , but other then that it has no other real use and again the unit cost too much compared to HT and infestors . If they are gonna nerf ghosts so bad they could have lowered their price at least .
Reaper was nerfed by making it's build time higher and speed upgrade has factory tech requirements . At this point i think it's ok to lower the build time of the Reaper from 40 to 35 at least to make reaper builds viable again . Zergs have their 6 range queen and they have roaches so it shouldn't be a big deal , but it could help make the game more balanced .
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On June 22 2012 00:40 ntssauce wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 00:32 Doodsmack wrote:
Hey guys, it's impossible that Terrans could still figure out a way to deal with this problem against Zerg. After all, there's no precedent for Terrans complaining about an imbalance for a long period of time without trying out different options that later turned out to work. Not even when they cried that BL/infestor was OP after the fungal buff but HADN'T EVEN TRIED USING GHOSTS. Nope, what should have happened was Blizzard should have reversed the fungal buff within one month because lots of Terran pros were complaining and they hadn't found a solution.
Smarten up. ok ok man chill out, we'll start using a t3 unit against a hatch tech unit now NP! ok case closed... omg you guys suggest the weirdest things in your search for an excuse that this buff has not screwed TvZ. Why would we have to build a t3 unit ( raven ghost whatever that costs mins+ gas , to stop your fuing hatch tech unit. i mean honestly.
Infestors are hatch tech? Infestors are T2, BLs are T3... ghosts are T2 as you don't even need a factory to produce them.
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On June 22 2012 00:22 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 00:08 Tryagain4free wrote:
Hi guys!
I have a question concerning the impact of the queen patch to ZvZ. Some post mentioned a positive impact of these changes to zerg's mirror.
So are there zergs in this thread (or any others) who feel qualified to give me some insight on the matter? TY!
Since the patch, zergs literally all now go for hatch first instead of regular 14/14 since the queen added range with spines help deal with banelings with much better at the early game. That why's ZvZ is much better to watch these days.I am a mid-high masters zerg The queen 5 range is good because it's brings more macro-oriented play in ZvZ and ZvT and less gimmicky play and overall reward players with better macro mechanics. This is good IMO for the game. However,this brings most of the game into the late game which Z excels at. Broodlords+Infestor against Terran who seem to struggle as of late. But one thing i see Terran not making is the ghost in lategame ZvT.I often even see more ravens than ghosts now in lategame in ZvT.Weird though even in competitve games in pro plays, we rarely ever see ghosts. They can be good since Bls+Infestor is only good with infestors support and corruptor support. Infestor is the main key.I feel Terran should be making ghosts. Maybe viking production with a few ghost to push Bls+back or snipe Infestor when they come to fungal your army? But then this is my opinion from a zerg perspective.
Hi FakeDeath!
Thanks for sharing your experience. I must admit, my impression on the current state of ZvZ was, that it felt more "zerglike", i.e. more swarm activity. Ling-banling wars may be fun to play, but (for me) not very exciting. In my opinion, the queen patch has somewhat stabalized the MU, withoutt me beeing able to fully understand the matter.
On your point of ghost absence in TvZ: The current strategy in high level TvZ seems to be sniping infestors with stimmed marauders in midgame. Baiting and forcing fungals on little groups of MM with madivacs, to drain out the energy, keeping the numbers down and finally overwhelm zergs army.
Theoratically, Ghost snipe (not EMP due to size of infestors) should be the counter to infestors.But the opportunity cost and the general timings, along with the strict "anti-spellcastser-caster-concept" of post patch ghost, make them an inferior choice for many top level terrans.
One more advantage for the marauder solution is their usefulness versus Ultras. From watching some highlevel TvZ lategames including ghosts, I came to the conclusion, that ghosts hardly can touch the infestors with their bodygards (Broodlords) over their heads.
At least this is what I think of it. Maybe there are more qualified people in here, to do a better job explaining.
So thanks again for your answer, really appreciate it.
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On June 22 2012 00:52 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 00:40 ntssauce wrote:On June 22 2012 00:32 Doodsmack wrote:
Hey guys, it's impossible that Terrans could still figure out a way to deal with this problem against Zerg. After all, there's no precedent for Terrans complaining about an imbalance for a long period of time without trying out different options that later turned out to work. Not even when they cried that BL/infestor was OP after the fungal buff but HADN'T EVEN TRIED USING GHOSTS. Nope, what should have happened was Blizzard should have reversed the fungal buff within one month because lots of Terran pros were complaining and they hadn't found a solution.
Smarten up. ok ok man chill out, we'll start using a t3 unit against a hatch tech unit now NP! ok case closed... omg you guys suggest the weirdest things in your search for an excuse that this buff has not screwed TvZ. Why would we have to build a t3 unit ( raven ghost whatever that costs mins+ gas , to stop your fuing hatch tech unit. i mean honestly. Infestors are hatch tech? Infestors are T2, BLs are T3... ghosts are T2 as you don't even need a factory to produce them.
ghosts are t2.5 because terran has no real tiers but they have the price of a tier 3 unit so i called them t3 !
And I meant queens that obv are hatch tech. people are suggesting using raven and ghosts against them , LOL!
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I think what the recent patch just dealt the killing blow to the terran fun factor. Before that things were looking bad from the terran perspective and we've had threads like "where did all the terrans go" here already. But now it seems just too much.
I had my fun times in TvZ, trying to hit timings before Z gets (too many) banelings, or prepare some kind of scary mech push before they can go to hive tech. Now it seems to me that both of those windows are closed, early game is over before my little group of bio units gets to walk across another huge map. Mid game is over before my oh-so-slow mech army does the same (super-fast hive and 2/2 Z can get now is not helping either).
Yeah, I can imagine withstanding all that aggression could be somewhat tough, but it was the T who was on the clock. Almost every minute spent ingame by Z got them closer to the fun high-tech high-eco part.
Now I feel that I'm unable to deal the early/mid-game damage and the only thing coming as the game goes on is the "oh, it's time to F10-n" feeling. Playing such a game does not really entertaining and neither is 11/11 rax bunker FTW. So I'm off, leaving the ladder in the hands of masochists and those few, who enjoy a real challenge.
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EPT
