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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
It makes me laugh.
When TvP was ridiculous with 1-1-1 for a month, Terrans: "L2P"
Now when TvP and TvZ are a bit of a struggle for a month, Terrans: "OMG IMBA!"
Balance whine is ridiculous, it was ridiculous when Zergs were struggling ZvT and it was ridiculous when Protoss complained about 1-1-1. It's just as ridiculous now.
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On June 21 2012 23:27 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 23:25 Scisyhp wrote:
Given that terrans are 6-4 against zerg in this GSL season (in series), I think it's sort of silly to say that zerg is really overpowered versus terran at high levels. In reality, I think that it is pretty balanced, just terrans have to get more used to not using early aggression as a crutch, which high level players are accomodating better to. Ya, a whopping 10 games is clearly evidence of Zerg being balanced, despite the fact that every GSL Terran has come out and said that they're too strong.
And GSL tosses said Protoss was UP until MC came along and started winning.
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4713 Posts
On June 21 2012 23:29 Zarahtra wrote:Problem with both these units is though that they are so... gimmicky. Either they work insanely well or they suck. Admittedly basically the same as PvZ with vortex, but still a terrible fix. Ghost buff: If you get to the situation, you can massacre the opponents BLs or you just loose. Raven buff: Either the opponent clumps up, or you loose. Admittedly, buffing either of those units would atleast make the MU better, but the issue really lies with the BL/infestor(/corruptor) synergy, which is just way to great.
More like the synergy between infestors and everything zerg is too good.
When Blizz nerfed the Ghosts everyone was arguing that it was justified given how versatile of a unit they are, but on the same not why the hell is it ok for the other races like zerg to be able to mass so many casters and for it to be ok? Infestors are used in every single match up.
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On June 21 2012 23:32 oZii wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 23:27 Shiori wrote:On June 21 2012 23:25 Scisyhp wrote:
Given that terrans are 6-4 against zerg in this GSL season (in series), I think it's sort of silly to say that zerg is really overpowered versus terran at high levels. In reality, I think that it is pretty balanced, just terrans have to get more used to not using early aggression as a crutch, which high level players are accomodating better to. Ya, a whopping 10 games is clearly evidence of Zerg being balanced, despite the fact that every GSL Terran has come out and said that they're too strong. And GSL tosses said Protoss was UP until MC came along and started winning.
Protoss vs Zerg is still virtually unplayable in a macro game, and there's thus far been no saviour in that regard; everyone loses to BL/Infestor.
Terran have a tonne of talented players, and when all of them (who are established pros, not fads like early Protoss players) are saying there's a problem, I'm inclined to believe them.
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France9034 Posts
On June 21 2012 23:17 Tryagain4free wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 23:11 Ragnarork wrote:On June 21 2012 22:43 jdsowa wrote:
Terran player here. I realize that my Z opponent cannot harass my base early game. But I still think it is unfair to take away my ability to harass his base so I can get an early game advantage. Also I believe I should have a superior late game army. But here's the thing--I refuse to use my T3 and gas heavy units. I refuse to acknowledge their existence. I can only use bio. So please Blizzard, do a buff on my bio so that this game is fair. Ok, play T and show us the path, mighty prophet ! Seriously, i wouldn't believe you if you told me you've tried Terran once. Why would a Zerg harass a Terran now, when he can just outmacro him (even 3OC openers when scouted, because they can grab more base safely...) pulling only drones of his larvae ? And how about you explain which units T refuse to acknowledge their existence ? Don't you think pros have tried them ? Like, say, trying to see if there was viable options that could improve their play ? But you must be way smarters than Mvp/MMA/MKP. Hey Ragnarok! Come on, you should know better. By choosing a nickname related to the ancient nordic sagas, you should be more qualified then anybody else to finish the following phrase: Don't feed the...
You are totally right sir !
I'm just so tired of these kind of posts. This topic is complicated enough so we don't have to bother with that.
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i feel like the queen buff itself is a good change cuz it makes zergplay more stable, opens up the game alot more and takes away some random factors. i hope, if terrans still struggle vs zerg they nerf something else and dont revert the queen buff.
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France9034 Posts
On June 21 2012 23:36 ChriseC wrote:
i feel like the queen buff itself is a good change cuz it makes zergplay more stable, opens up the game alot more and takes away some random factors. i hope, if terrans still struggle vs zerg they nerf something else and dont revert the queen buff.
Well, the problem is, either they give to the terrans some options to put pressure/catch up in term of macro/adress the Terran T3 problem, or they nerf the way zerg macro works...
I don't think it's strictly limited to this, but these are the only options i see right now..
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4713 Posts
To add to your post. DRG in an interview basically said that GSL is the exception to the rules as far as current balance trends go, because people have so much time to prepare, if they study you hard enough they can counter not only your builds but your entire style.
The terrans that made it trough are probably the best all around because they have so many builds/styles that it is hard to prepare for them, and they are also exceptionally good at studying their opponents.
However, if you look away from the GSL and look at all the other tournaments like DH, MLG, etc you see the trends of terran obscurity and zerg or protoss domination.
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On June 21 2012 23:32 FairForever wrote:It makes me laugh. When TvP was ridiculous with 1-1-1 for a month, Terrans: "L2P" Now when TvP and TvZ are a bit of a struggle for a month, Terrans: "OMG IMBA!" Balance whine is ridiculous, it was ridiculous when Zergs were struggling ZvT and it was ridiculous when Protoss complained about 1-1-1. It's just as ridiculous now.
They buffed Immortal range as a response.
Protoss learned to deal with it then. It's not as if they had no help at all from Blizzard. The selective memories of some individuals on this forum is ridiculous.
Thors were a bit too good, nerf + energy bar. Terran now has 6 units running off energy, no other race comes close.
Ghosts too viable vs Zerg, nerf snipe.
Or did Zerg and Protoss players just all of a sudden get better? Did they forget all the help they received from Blizzard from all the patches?
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France9034 Posts
On June 21 2012 23:41 Destructicon wrote:To add to your post. DRG in an interview basically said that GSL is the exception to the rules as far as current balance trends go, because people have so much time to prepare, if they study you hard enough they can counter not only your builds but your entire style. The terrans that made it trough are probably the best all around because they have so many builds/styles that it is hard to prepare for them, and they are also exceptionally good at studying their opponents. However, if you look away from the GSL and look at all the other tournaments like DH, MLG, etc you see the trends of terran obscurity and zerg or protoss domination.
The best example to validate your argument would be Mvp. Though people tend to say that he isn't the "more skilled" anymore, he still managed to win the last GSL, and I wouldn't say it has anything to do with the race, but more with his practice discipline and his wonderful serie planning. Based on skill only, i think he would have been crushed by Parting who was eating Terrans for breakfast back then.
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On June 21 2012 22:21 emc wrote:
I race switched to terran a long time ago before the infestor got buffed, I'm thinking about switching again just because it's fun being the race other people consider bad. Plus ZvZ 70% of the time on ladder can get old.
I hate ZvZ so I just 7pool + 2 spine rush each ZvZ. Win or lose they are all over shortly.
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On June 21 2012 23:25 Scisyhp wrote:
Given that terrans are 6-4 against zerg in this GSL season (in series), I think it's sort of silly to say that zerg is really overpowered versus terran at high levels. In reality, I think that it is pretty balanced, just terrans have to get more used to not using early aggression as a crutch, which high level players are accomodating better to.
This clearly implies that you have not watched the games. Leenock played HORRIBLE today and three of his four losses are the result of donating a huge amount of key units (in two games 5+ infestors, in the daybreak game 8+ mutas) without reason just by not looking without any benefit. The other game was lost due to his tendency to stay on two bases forever.
The other contributor to the bad TvZ performance (from the Zerg perspective) was line, who insisted on going mass roach each and every game. The first game he actually won and then his opponents made siegetanks and marauders and line still massed roaches. It seemed like he WANTED to go into code A.
I haven't watched Sniper, but if you look at the Line/Leenock games you know that they are NOT indicative of the matchup.
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On June 21 2012 23:39 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 23:36 ChriseC wrote:
i feel like the queen buff itself is a good change cuz it makes zergplay more stable, opens up the game alot more and takes away some random factors. i hope, if terrans still struggle vs zerg they nerf something else and dont revert the queen buff. Well, the problem is, either they give to the terrans some options to put pressure/catch up in term of macro/adress the Terran T3 problem, or they nerf the way zerg macro works... I don't think it's strictly limited to this, but these are the only options i see right now..
Tbh the best way would be really to address the lategame issue that both terran and toss have vZ at the same time, since they are very similar. Then Blizzard would probably need to tweak toss 2 base allins vZ(since they are pretty much where all PvZ wins come from atm, if more come from lategame it will need to cost midgame). Then TvP would be the only issue left, which is a lot more complex issue(well basically the core unit combs of both races are just so radically different).
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On June 21 2012 23:48 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 23:39 Ragnarork wrote:On June 21 2012 23:36 ChriseC wrote:
i feel like the queen buff itself is a good change cuz it makes zergplay more stable, opens up the game alot more and takes away some random factors. i hope, if terrans still struggle vs zerg they nerf something else and dont revert the queen buff. Well, the problem is, either they give to the terrans some options to put pressure/catch up in term of macro/adress the Terran T3 problem, or they nerf the way zerg macro works... I don't think it's strictly limited to this, but these are the only options i see right now.. Tbh the best way would be really to address the lategame issue that both terran and toss have vZ at the same time, since they are very similar. Then Blizzard would probably need to tweak toss 2 base allins vZ(since they are pretty much where all PvZ wins come from atm, if more come from lategame it will need to cost midgame). Then TvP would be the only issue left, which is a lot more complex issue(well basically the core unit combs of both races are just so radically different).
Sigh...every race should not be 100% focused on the late game
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On June 21 2012 23:48 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 23:39 Ragnarork wrote:On June 21 2012 23:36 ChriseC wrote:
i feel like the queen buff itself is a good change cuz it makes zergplay more stable, opens up the game alot more and takes away some random factors. i hope, if terrans still struggle vs zerg they nerf something else and dont revert the queen buff. Well, the problem is, either they give to the terrans some options to put pressure/catch up in term of macro/adress the Terran T3 problem, or they nerf the way zerg macro works... I don't think it's strictly limited to this, but these are the only options i see right now.. Tbh the best way would be really to address the lategame issue that both terran and toss have vZ at the same time, since they are very similar. Then Blizzard would probably need to tweak toss 2 base allins vZ(since they are pretty much where all PvZ wins come from atm, if more come from lategame it will need to cost midgame). Then TvP would be the only issue left, which is a lot more complex issue(well basically the core unit combs of both races are just so radically different).
What do you mean tweak toss 2 base all-in?
Kind to elaborate?
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Blizzard's stance on balance is so full of double-talk. On the one hand, they say that Terran weakness in lategame is just fine, because they're supposed to gain an advantage in early and midgame. On the other, they proceed to nerf any Terran ability that proves effective in gaining said advantage.
Lately, I it's been looking like there's no such thing as a "solid" Terran since he loses by default against zerg. All T can do is wait for Z to make some serious error before the lategame clock runs down.
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GSL is not a big representation of the TvZ situation as a whole. There were several proxy 2 rax builds than usual to keep GSL zergs on edge about being overly greedy, part of the GSL metagame.
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On June 21 2012 23:53 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 23:48 Zarahtra wrote:On June 21 2012 23:39 Ragnarork wrote:On June 21 2012 23:36 ChriseC wrote:
i feel like the queen buff itself is a good change cuz it makes zergplay more stable, opens up the game alot more and takes away some random factors. i hope, if terrans still struggle vs zerg they nerf something else and dont revert the queen buff. Well, the problem is, either they give to the terrans some options to put pressure/catch up in term of macro/adress the Terran T3 problem, or they nerf the way zerg macro works... I don't think it's strictly limited to this, but these are the only options i see right now.. Tbh the best way would be really to address the lategame issue that both terran and toss have vZ at the same time, since they are very similar. Then Blizzard would probably need to tweak toss 2 base allins vZ(since they are pretty much where all PvZ wins come from atm, if more come from lategame it will need to cost midgame). Then TvP would be the only issue left, which is a lot more complex issue(well basically the core unit combs of both races are just so radically different). What do you mean tweak toss 2 base all-in? Kind to elaborate?
Make them weaker, in response to more balanced lategame. Buffing toss lategame would(well should) make them win more lategame and as a response, assuming the MU is balanced, it'd make zerg UP in the MU. Hence it'd need to reduce the midgame wins of toss. Best way to effect only PvZ would probably be messing with the immo, making it better for defense purpose(so stephano pushes would be easier to hold), while making it worse for allins.
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Well, terrans in general have problems now. I agree that the range buff was too much. Somehow I like it that finally also the terrans have a reason to balance whine. Many players seem to look down on people that complain about balance, until balance no longer favours their race.
I think a queen range reversal would be enough. Maybe change broodlord range from 9.5 to 9, Blizzard seems to prefer pretty numbers anyway, and nice numbers are better for noobs to get into the game.
HOTS comes out soon then balance will change totally anyway.
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EPT
