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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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At this point Blizzard should really consider buffing some terran units . Reaven is too fucking expensive with it's upgrade to ever be utilized in TvZ . Freaking 100 minerals and 200 gas with a 125 energy HSM , which you need at least 2 upgrades to utilize . Compared to protoss's HT and zerg's infestors it is a fucking waste . The only use it has is to detect invisable units , but it's to expensive to be effective for even that .
lol reaven. a reaper raven that can jump cliffs and shoot HSMs at drone lines. But it all seriousness, ravens are so underpowered it's ridiculous. It's no wonder terrans didnt use them until they were forced to by the patch.
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Remove raven and bring back science vessel.
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On June 21 2012 23:50 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 23:48 Zarahtra wrote:On June 21 2012 23:39 Ragnarork wrote:On June 21 2012 23:36 ChriseC wrote:
i feel like the queen buff itself is a good change cuz it makes zergplay more stable, opens up the game alot more and takes away some random factors. i hope, if terrans still struggle vs zerg they nerf something else and dont revert the queen buff. Well, the problem is, either they give to the terrans some options to put pressure/catch up in term of macro/adress the Terran T3 problem, or they nerf the way zerg macro works... I don't think it's strictly limited to this, but these are the only options i see right now.. Tbh the best way would be really to address the lategame issue that both terran and toss have vZ at the same time, since they are very similar. Then Blizzard would probably need to tweak toss 2 base allins vZ(since they are pretty much where all PvZ wins come from atm, if more come from lategame it will need to cost midgame). Then TvP would be the only issue left, which is a lot more complex issue(well basically the core unit combs of both races are just so radically different). Sigh...every race should not be 100% focused on the late game
I agree, but the macro mechanics are so much more dominant that if we can't have a leg up vs Zerg then we have to prep for the lategame, which is what the majority of Terrans are looking into right now.
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I definitely think TvZ got a lot less interesting. Any kind of early aggression is pretty much not viable anymore. 2 rax, reaper harass, and hellion harass are gone -- and these 3 openers were probably 95% of openers. It's a shame they would remove the micro aspect of the first 7-8 min of TvZ.
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I imagine we'll end up seeing a resurgence of the Maka-rax 2-rax pressures. It seems like the key is to force a zerg into investing into static defense or zerglings early, to find some way to mitigate the effectiveness of 4-6 queens.
This has proved effective in my practice games, though they're not a remotely high level, so ultimately I'll wait to see what guys like MKP and MVP do as they progress through Code-S.
It's especially disappointing that this patch had a particularly small effect on ZvP (where I think some change was needed) and trounced over what had been the current metagame of ZvT (which was exciting and enjoyable to watch and play). Conversely it's nice as a spectator to see- a year and a half later- that zerg players are finally using queens.
To me, this felt like an overbuff, but I don't anticipate anything changing. Gonna need to learn to kite better.
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Playing on the NA server there aren't many zergs that give me problems. I don't mind the change too much as far as balance goes, but I'm not a big fan of the lack of diversity in my builds. I feel like my options are few now with hellions being insanely easy to shut down. I felt this way after the no-rax-before-depot change as well.
I did notice that there are VERY few terrans in GM now and while ladder doesn't matter too much to me, I think it's an interesting statistic. I'd like to see how it pans out in tournaments a little more.
I also believe that zergs aren't abusing queens to their fullest. Along with queens I'd like to see burrowed banelings more frequently. I believe zerg has a lot of untapped potential that if played properly will see them being unstoppable. I think the T's have peaked already and there is little improvement to be had.
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On June 22 2012 00:40 ntssauce wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 00:32 Doodsmack wrote:
Hey guys, it's impossible that Terrans could still figure out a way to deal with this problem against Zerg. After all, there's no precedent for Terrans complaining about an imbalance for a long period of time without trying out different options that later turned out to work. Not even when they cried that BL/infestor was OP after the fungal buff but HADN'T EVEN TRIED USING GHOSTS. Nope, what should have happened was Blizzard should have reversed the fungal buff within one month because lots of Terran pros were complaining and they hadn't found a solution.
Smarten up. ok ok man chill out, we'll start using a t3 unit against a hatch tech unit now NP! ok case closed... omg you guys suggest the weirdest things in your search for an excuse that this buff has not screwed TvZ. Why would we have to build a t3 unit ( raven ghost whatever that costs mins+ gas , to stop your fuing hatch tech unit. i mean honestly.
Reading comprehension. I wasn't saying ghosts and Ravens should be used against queens. I was saying Terran still might develop strategies/timings to deal with their difficulties against Zerg right now.
Keep in mind, every single time there's a balance change that gives people a hard time they start speaking with the same conviction and doom and gloom that you see in this thread. Fungal buff, khaydarin amulet, etc. Back then people were saying "i win button" and "HTs are now obsolete" left and right. Anyone now saying that it's over for Terran is, frankly, not discerning enough to have learned any lessons about balance changes after two years of WoL.
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k guys, now Idra will win everything. /waiting
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On June 22 2012 01:15 Durp wrote:
I imagine we'll end up seeing a resurgence of the Maka-rax 2-rax pressures. It seems like the key is to force a zerg into investing into static defense or zerglings early, to find some way to mitigate the effectiveness of 4-6 queens.
This has proved effective in my practice games, though they're not a remotely high level, so ultimately I'll wait to see what guys like MKP and MVP do as they progress through Code-S.
It's especially disappointing that this patch had a particularly small effect on ZvP (where I think some change was needed) and trounced over what had been the current metagame of ZvT (which was exciting and enjoyable to watch and play). Conversely it's nice as a spectator to see- a year and a half later- that zerg players are finally using queens.
To me, this felt like an overbuff, but I don't anticipate anything changing. Gonna need to learn to kite better.
Problem about this is Map-size . The Maps have gotten so much bigger that you will have to proxy barracks to pressure with bio early on .
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I think the problem was the hellion was too good at everything the zerg did. denied creep, expansion, deny vision and scouting. Also if you wanted to just suicide for drones you could at any time. This was not good for the match up.
The queen buff was supposed to stop that one unit being so versatile. Now I think the queen has become that one super versatile unit. Able to shut down all harass, spread creep without worry. protect expansions without worry. Seems like it will be a hard dynamic to make right? maybe try one less range on queen?
I am not sure. I am just a crappy zerg.
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On June 22 2012 01:15 Durp wrote:
I imagine we'll end up seeing a resurgence of the Maka-rax 2-rax pressures. It seems like the key is to force a zerg into investing into static defense or zerglings early, to find some way to mitigate the effectiveness of 4-6 queens.
But even that, Queen having same range as marines make it less effective.
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On June 22 2012 01:25 MrMatt wrote:
I think the problem was the hellion was too good at everything the zerg did. denied creep, expansion, deny vision and scouting. Also if you wanted to just suicide for drones you could at any time. This was not good for the match up.
The queen buff was supposed to stop that one unit being so versatile. Now I think the queen has become that one super versatile unit. Able to shut down all harass, spread creep without worry. protect expansions without worry. Seems like it will be a hard dynamic to make right? maybe try one less range on queen?
I am not sure. I am just a crappy zerg.
If the hellion was too good, then why was the matchup W/L ratio almost 50/50 across every board? And was most people's favorite matchup to watch and play?
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On June 22 2012 01:16 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 00:40 ntssauce wrote:On June 22 2012 00:32 Doodsmack wrote:
Hey guys, it's impossible that Terrans could still figure out a way to deal with this problem against Zerg. After all, there's no precedent for Terrans complaining about an imbalance for a long period of time without trying out different options that later turned out to work. Not even when they cried that BL/infestor was OP after the fungal buff but HADN'T EVEN TRIED USING GHOSTS. Nope, what should have happened was Blizzard should have reversed the fungal buff within one month because lots of Terran pros were complaining and they hadn't found a solution.
Smarten up. ok ok man chill out, we'll start using a t3 unit against a hatch tech unit now NP! ok case closed... omg you guys suggest the weirdest things in your search for an excuse that this buff has not screwed TvZ. Why would we have to build a t3 unit ( raven ghost whatever that costs mins+ gas , to stop your fuing hatch tech unit. i mean honestly. Reading comprehension. I wasn't saying ghosts and Ravens should be used against queens. I was saying Terran still might develop strategies/timings to deal with their difficulties against Zerg right now. Keep in mind, every single time there's a balance change that gives people a hard time they start speaking with the same conviction and doom and gloom that you see in this thread. Fungal buff, khaydarin amulet, etc. Back then people were saying "i win button" and "HTs are now obsolete" left and right. Anyone now saying that it's over for Terran is, frankly, not discerning enough to have learned any lessons about balance changes after two years of WoL.
HT WERE obsolete, they nerfed HT without nerfing the radius on EMP, which made them absolutely awful. HT usage didn't start becoming viable again until AFTER the EMP nerf.
Fungal Growth buff absolutely murdered Terran/Protoss to the point you could just make pure Infestors and roll over anyone.
People complained because they had legitimate complaints. HT nerf was met with an EMP nerf, which made the interactions between HT/Ghosts much more fair. Fungal Growth got nerfed so now FG doesn't murder mechanical units so badly.
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On June 21 2012 23:28 Enemyy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 23:25 Scisyhp wrote:
Given that terrans are 6-4 against zerg in this GSL season (in series), I think it's sort of silly to say that zerg is really overpowered versus terran at high levels. In reality, I think that it is pretty balanced, just terrans have to get more used to not using early aggression as a crutch, which high level players are accomodating better to. Just give this a look (like posted alot before). http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/2509/tgth.jpg
Like...wow.
Watch out for telling the truth, u can be punished.
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On June 22 2012 01:06 SaberNodoka wrote:
Remove raven and bring back science vessel.
That would just be perfect. I'm serious.
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On June 22 2012 01:39 megid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 23:28 Enemyy wrote:On June 21 2012 23:25 Scisyhp wrote:
Given that terrans are 6-4 against zerg in this GSL season (in series), I think it's sort of silly to say that zerg is really overpowered versus terran at high levels. In reality, I think that it is pretty balanced, just terrans have to get more used to not using early aggression as a crutch, which high level players are accomodating better to. Just give this a look (like posted alot before). http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/2509/tgth.jpg Like...wow. Watch out for telling the truth, u can be punished.
There are more terrans than protoss/zerg in GSL r16. + A terran won the last season. It was an unfair pick because it didn't have all tournaments (e.g. Code S)
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On June 22 2012 01:16 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 00:40 ntssauce wrote:On June 22 2012 00:32 Doodsmack wrote:
Hey guys, it's impossible that Terrans could still figure out a way to deal with this problem against Zerg. After all, there's no precedent for Terrans complaining about an imbalance for a long period of time without trying out different options that later turned out to work. Not even when they cried that BL/infestor was OP after the fungal buff but HADN'T EVEN TRIED USING GHOSTS. Nope, what should have happened was Blizzard should have reversed the fungal buff within one month because lots of Terran pros were complaining and they hadn't found a solution.
Smarten up. ok ok man chill out, we'll start using a t3 unit against a hatch tech unit now NP! ok case closed... omg you guys suggest the weirdest things in your search for an excuse that this buff has not screwed TvZ. Why would we have to build a t3 unit ( raven ghost whatever that costs mins+ gas , to stop your fuing hatch tech unit. i mean honestly. Reading comprehension. I wasn't saying ghosts and Ravens should be used against queens. I was saying Terran still might develop strategies/timings to deal with their difficulties against Zerg right now. Keep in mind, every single time there's a balance change that gives people a hard time they start speaking with the same conviction and doom and gloom that you see in this thread. Fungal buff, khaydarin amulet, etc. Back then people were saying "i win button" and "HTs are now obsolete" left and right. Anyone now saying that it's over for Terran is, frankly, not discerning enough to have learned any lessons about balance changes after two years of WoL.
We are going to be cheering the terran who starts using the raven as a dector. Not as an active unit, but a passive one that is only used for its vision. There are so many professional games lately where infestors burrow and sneak into or beyond the tank line. One or two ravens would make them think twice about risking such a pricey unit. However,because terrans have never use it, zergs abuse the mobility and stealth of the unit. That and pushing back creep would be much cheaper.
Forget the spells, those are like a bonus. PDD is cool, but should only be used to protect vikings from corruptors. Forget HSC. Mobil detection in the terran army will do wonders for pushing back creep. It may be pricey gas wise, but 3-6 scans costs a lot too.
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On June 22 2012 01:43 DrPandaPhD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 01:39 megid wrote:On June 21 2012 23:28 Enemyy wrote:On June 21 2012 23:25 Scisyhp wrote:
Given that terrans are 6-4 against zerg in this GSL season (in series), I think it's sort of silly to say that zerg is really overpowered versus terran at high levels. In reality, I think that it is pretty balanced, just terrans have to get more used to not using early aggression as a crutch, which high level players are accomodating better to. Just give this a look (like posted alot before). http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/2509/tgth.jpg Like...wow. Watch out for telling the truth, u can be punished. There are more terrans than protoss/zerg in GSL r16. + A terran won the last season. It was an unfair pick because it didn't have all tournaments (e.g. Code S)
Yeh but GSL is the only tournament with good terran statistics, and as DRG said in his interview you get 1 week to study your opponent in GSL, so you can make crazy strats or find weakness in your opponent, not possible in other tournaments.
Is it really fair to allow terrans to drop all tournaments because they can do well in GSL?
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On June 22 2012 01:43 DrPandaPhD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 01:39 megid wrote:On June 21 2012 23:28 Enemyy wrote:On June 21 2012 23:25 Scisyhp wrote:
Given that terrans are 6-4 against zerg in this GSL season (in series), I think it's sort of silly to say that zerg is really overpowered versus terran at high levels. In reality, I think that it is pretty balanced, just terrans have to get more used to not using early aggression as a crutch, which high level players are accomodating better to. Just give this a look (like posted alot before). http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/2509/tgth.jpg Like...wow. Watch out for telling the truth, u can be punished. There are more terrans than protoss/zerg in GSL r16. + A terran won the last season. It was an unfair pick because it didn't have all tournaments (e.g. Code S)
All zergs where out of Code S when the patch hit, how many times do people have to say that to make zergs realize that? ._.
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On June 22 2012 01:43 DrPandaPhD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 01:39 megid wrote:On June 21 2012 23:28 Enemyy wrote:On June 21 2012 23:25 Scisyhp wrote:
Given that terrans are 6-4 against zerg in this GSL season (in series), I think it's sort of silly to say that zerg is really overpowered versus terran at high levels. In reality, I think that it is pretty balanced, just terrans have to get more used to not using early aggression as a crutch, which high level players are accomodating better to. Just give this a look (like posted alot before). http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/2509/tgth.jpg Like...wow. Watch out for telling the truth, u can be punished. There are more terrans than protoss/zerg in GSL r16. + A terran won the last season. It was an unfair pick because it didn't have all tournaments (e.g. Code S)
They have a freaking week to prepare in GSL.
Terran is the race who benefit from specific practice against one opponent the most. It help a lot.
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EPT
