EPTOn June 17 2012 01:52 DemigodcelpH wrote:
I said specifically said "and his goons". Please read before you write next time.
I said specifically said "and his goons". Please read before you write next time.
First sentence kid.
Reluctance to Re-Introduce BW-Units - Page 4
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stormchaser
Canada1009 Posts
First sentence kid. | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On June 17 2012 02:03 Freeze967 wrote: Some of it might be because of lore reasons. They might make the Warhound have the exact same stats as the Goliath does, but if they just brought back the Goliath people might ask why wasn't it used in WoL. Maybe they have a nice campaign for HotS^^ The Goliath was in the WoL campaign. | ||
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Synche
United States1345 Posts
On June 17 2012 01:47 Stratos_speAr wrote: This. More specifically, SC2 is incredibly well balanced. That said, it still has some fundamental design flaws, and the majority of them are units that make the game very generic and boring (Colossus, Roach, Marauder). Unfortunately, the SC2 developers refuse to suck up their pride and at least take some inspiration from BW units and make new units/tweak units to make the game more interesting. It seems like they are insulted by constant comparisons from BW so they want to make SC2 completely different and try to make it better than BW to give themselves an ego boost, regardless of the consequences. Man I swear that line annoys me, but what annoys me more is the epic failure that is Kennigit every time he says that. I want to scream at him each time ASK A DECENT FOLLOW UP. I'll give three right now in case someone every get the chance to interview the DB. 1) What people are talking about is the specific micro situations that are needed in BW. Pathing can stay the same, but specifically designing in things like carrier micro can revitalize a unit without changing the pathing of the overall game. 2) Deathballs are indeed easier to make in SC2 but what about designing less units that only require an attack move, like the colossus, and more units that need to be microed properly, like the marine. 2a) Don't you think that the colossus is simply bad from both a gameplay and a spectator experience? Why do you feel a need to attack move units at all in an esport? 3) Ignoring pathing altogether, do you feel fights happen too quickly? The ability to retreat from a poor engagement is limited, do you think something as simply as slowing down the game speed might be a worthwhile choice to help with this? I mean I know he's aware of a lot of these issues but I think he's just not looking at enough options with enough urgency. | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
On June 17 2012 01:51 Azzur wrote: I agree with Dustin Browder's stance - if you want BW units, go play BW. It is already theoretically possible to make BW units in the SC2 editor - if there's demand for it, it would've already happened. the units in HotS essentially mimic their BW counterparts, but are not their bw counterparts. viper for example (dark swam, consume). so why do we still have old units like templar, hydra, etc, but not the rest of the units? | ||
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GARO
United States2255 Posts
Maybe you should reread what you quoted kid. | ||
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Thaniri
1264 Posts
Factory marauder that looks like a mech warrior and nothing like a sc2 unit. I don't care if people say it is a lack of creativity, but the factory 'hole' would be filled so easily with a goliath, and much more elegantly. | ||
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empty.bottle
685 Posts
On June 17 2012 01:09 sharky246 wrote: Would they really get flamed for bringing exact copies? I mean look at dota 2, it is exactly the same as dota 1, just better graphics, nobody is flaming them for lack of creativity. Dota 2 is not a sequel, It's a standalone version of DotA. LoL and HoN are like the Sc2s of Dota. | ||
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R3DT1D3
285 Posts
I'd love to see the game become more like BW but SC2 is just designed to take that kind of gameplay out of the equation. | ||
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TanKLoveR
Venezuela838 Posts
I wouldn't mind seeing the reaver back but i can see that unit being tough to kill for zerg and protoss with current units, protoss would just keep the reaver at the back of the ball of death and would be difficult to focus fire. Colossus is much easier unit to deal with and easy to operate for the sc2 noobs i suppose  . Besides that I dont really have any complains about swarm host and what not, the viper it's basically a flying defiler so people dont let it die so easily. | ||
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Synche
United States1345 Posts
On June 17 2012 02:06 SarcasmMonster wrote: Adding BW replicas is not the only way to add meaningful units... It's not the units but its the gameplay. Seriously I'm an SC2 guy, I have absolutely no attachment to BW, but I go back and see those games or watch PL and you can see the design flaws in SC2 if you just look with your eyes open. And you don't need to go back to horrible pathing to fix these things, a lot of them can be specifically designed into the game. Idea: What if carriers specifically built in carrier micro back into them? i.e. the interceptors keep attacking the target for half a second (or whatever time, balance it) after the carrier is given the move command. Is there any reason this can't be done?? Just DB. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On June 17 2012 02:09 a176 wrote: the units in HotS essentially mimic their BW counterparts, but are not their bw counterparts. viper for example (dark swam, consume). so why do we still have old units like templar, hydra, etc, but not the rest of the units? What about the fact that it flies? The fact that abduct is a completely new skill? The fact that its cloud ability works in very different ways (only affects bio, reduces range but allows them to deal damage)? The fact that its "consume" also works in fundamentally different way, since you need to be in your own base to use it? It's ridiculous how people are resorting to such exaggerations to make a point. Same with the warhound, its a mech walker so it must be the same thing as a goliath, right? | ||
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Proseat
Germany5113 Posts
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
The main things that have stopped them from bringing them back is linked to the effectiveness, their desire for a linear design path, and their need for regulated succession of tech opportunities without causing overlap. For example, let us take the Lurker. (Everyone's fave go to unit when talking about this) Browder's team wants Zerg to have weak early game AA What does this mean? Zerglings, Roaches, and Banelings don't shoot up. Crawlers and Queens are stuck on creep. The Hydralisk at hatch tech would break that race design preference by being a mobile anti-air unit during the early game. Browder's team also wants for tech progression to be linear with fancier stuff being "up a notch" in tech. So hatch tech gets you Roaches, Zerglings, and Banelings while lair tech gets you Hydras, Infestors, and Mutalisks. The Hydras have to be Lair tech to give zerg a weak early game AA. So it would seam weird and non-linear to have Hydralisks AND Lurkers be available at the same tech--Lair Tech. So, much like Overseer and the Broodlord, the only logical place to put Lurkers would be Hive tech. What did this cause? I remember David Kim saying that it made the Lurker too weak in their testing. Why? Because hive tech does not normally come until way deep into the game. The Lurker could no longer play the role people wanted it to play because at Hive tech, the Lurker was already the Unit lurkers would stall the game to get to. In BW, Lurkers allowed you to be safe as you teched hard to defilers. Once you had Defilers and extra gas bases you were able to start pushing back. With the Lurker at Hive tech--it would turn from a defensive siege weapon with offensive capabilities based on timing attacks into a cloaked Hydralisk. So why isn't the Lurker in the game? Because of the combination of two philosophies that shoved the Lurker too high up the tech tree. Is it easy to fix? Yes, technically, but it would a restructuring of the game. Roaches and Hydralisks switch spots. Queen loses her AA ability becoming a purely melee unit while Hydralisks are slowed down even more off creep. (About the same speed as the queen off creep would suffice) Lair tech would then lead to our first overlap issue. Roaches and Lurkers seems to both take up the "burrowed combat unit" slot at the same tech juncture. How do you resolve it? You give us back the old roach and make the lurker move slow off creep (about as fast as the Hydralisk is now) 3 range, 2 armor, and 1 supply. This creates a dynamic choice in unit composition and tactical space control. Roaches would be really good at moving out into the map to do hit and runs. At lair tech they come late enough that marauders and Immortals will be online in time. The roaches will be a lot weaker (forcefields actually forcefields roaches) marines would actually be able to kite roaches, etc... but there will be more of them. Lurkers would be slow units that you use to hold key positions At hydra Speed you're more likely to be keeping them where you are spreading creep while needing drop tech to actually be able to harass with them. Why don't they do this? That I can't tell you. But I do know why they don't have the Lurker. At least, what I believe their reasons to be based off of how they talk about unit design in their interviews. It isn't important that we have our own logical reasons for having certain units "back," what you need to figure out is why it is that Browder and his team reached the conclusion they did. They will never listen to your logic of "It would be cooler" or "In BW it was like _____" because at the end of the day those types of arguments and reasonings are subjective. Hech, I could complain that Command and Conquer was way more fun than BW and that we should bring in MORE a-move units like the collossus/mammoth tank. Try thinking about things from Browder and his team's mindset, then see if there is a better way to present your case based on what it is that they're trying to do. Personally? I reserve judgement on unit design and unit choices for when Void comes out. We already know that the release of the expansion will not only add units, but it has the options to remove units and completely redesign them as well. Once the Beta is over the release of HotS will show how much they are willing to change their game from expansion to expansion in an attempt to reach a certain level of perfection. We have at least one more reset coming after HotS, I'd rather wait for that before I whine about Protoss not really having a dynamic spellcaster outside of the Sentry... | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On June 17 2012 02:13 R3DT1D3 wrote: The BW units don't fit into the style of game SC2 is. The lurker for instance, would be incredibly hard to balance as a splash damage unit because there's very little squad tactics in SC2 compared to BW so splash hits the most of the army. Likewise goliaths would only really matter in TvT because of how SC2 air is balanced. I'd love to see the game become more like BW but SC2 is just designed to take that kind of gameplay out of the equation. Ironically in every interview they just love to tell you how much they want to reintroduce 'squad' tactics, encouraging protoss/terran to spread their supply around the map more. The only real design that removes broodwar-esque gameplay is the fact that units are able to clump unbelieveably tight. The ease of controlling units only piles onto that problem. In every engagement most if not all of the units are attacking at once, making marines/hydralisks unbelieveably powerful and melee units like zerglings/zealots have limited efficiency in poor engagements. AoE is way more cost efficient than it should be, resulting in nerfs to the tank, removal of the lurker and, for more reasons than aoe, weak T1 protoss units. The same overly efficient units like Hydralisk and Marine get murdered by AoE. | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On June 17 2012 02:21 corumjhaelen wrote: The subject of the thread is interesting and all, but I'd just like to state that the Viper's ability has nothing to do with Dark Swarm. In fact, it's pretty much disruption web which was on the corsair. If people could stop making that comparison I'd feel much better reading this. Disruption web - nothing can attack in it Blinding cloud - range reduced to 1. Zerglings, ultras, broodlings unaffected. Locusts slightly affected (since they only have 2 range to begin with) | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On June 17 2012 02:25 SarcasmMonster wrote: Disruption web - nothing can attack in it Blinding cloud - range reduced to 1. Zerglings, ultras, broodlings unaffected. Locusts slightly affected (since they only have 2 range to begin with) Yes, I said it's "pretty much" disruption web. Very different from dark swarm. In less good. I somehow have doubts it will be seen really often. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On June 17 2012 02:15 Bagi wrote: What about the fact that it flies? The fact that abduct is a completely new skill? The fact that its cloud ability works in very different ways (only affects bio, reduces range but allows them to deal damage)? The fact that its "consume" also works in fundamentally different way, since you need to be in your own base to use it? It's ridiculous how people are resorting to such exaggerations to make a point. Same with the warhound, its a mech walker so it must be the same thing as a goliath, right? lol you don't know? When it comes out of factory, if it rolls, it's a tank micmic, if it's 4 wheel, it's vulture micmic, if it's walk on 2 leges, it's goliath. SIlly blizzard, should have made war hound to walk on 4 legs, Terran need a unit like that. | ||
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TanKLoveR
Venezuela838 Posts
On June 17 2012 02:21 corumjhaelen wrote: The subject of the thread is interesting and all, but I'd just like to state that the Viper's ability has nothing to do with Dark Swarm. In fact, it's pretty much disruption web which was on the corsair. If people could stop making that comparison I'd feel much better reading this. It is very similar but not quite the same, remember the corsair ability would disable units inside of it AND structures like turrets/spores/sunken/bunkers etc so it was good to take care of static defence and forced people to move out of it if they could, which is just like the blind thing the viper has. But i dont think it affects buildings. | ||
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