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On June 17 2012 02:57 SaturnAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 02:41 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 17 2012 02:40 Azriel wrote:
Pretty sure they took out the lurker because it ripped the tester's Terran balls to shreds. And thus its replacement the swarm host gets no AOE in order to remain balanced.
This game would be more interesting with automatic formation spreading or something similar. That would make the game so much easier. Having them clump less would extend the engagements instead of having everything melt in seconds. Prolonged engagements, more reliance on spacing, more focus on unit control to overcome size deficits are all noble goals. Those are inherent engine problems though, and its difficult to imagine how to can overcome them no matter what units they put in.
Game speed could also be lowered.
Gives people a better chance to micro
extends engagements
allows for more clutch plays
etc...
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On June 17 2012 03:13 wcr.4fun wrote:
You should not have to fight an engine. an engine should be doing exactly what you say it to do. In broodwar you had the magic box which counted for everything basically. If you wanted your units to be spread, they would stay spread. If you wanted your units to clump up, you had to give them the order to clump up. Units doing what you want them to do, is too much asked from sc2, where your units ALWAYS clump up.
So you have to be active about spreading your units? You had to do that in brood war anyways.
You just spread your units and give a new move command? Too bad, we're clumped up again. In brood war however, they wouldn't clump up, unless you want them too. I guess this also has to do with the faster game pace, ridiculous aoe/firepower of collussus and with the fact that you can select your entire army in one control group. But I blame the lack of collision size/clumping up a lot more. And also the gliding physics (units being able to push others around) removes the ability to precisely control your army. And the lack of moving shot for mutalisks and other air units is so goddamn hateable. (also ground units).
/rant
edit: also if the speed of the fights get reduced and clumping up gets reduced (power of aoe), the better player with better micro is more likely to win because the longer a fight goes on, the more good decisions the more experienced player can make.
You start with this line as your premise, then use BW as your ideal... if anything, the BW engine is a bigger fight.
Edit: People are still making Goliath <-> Warhound comparisions, are you that stubborn 
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On June 17 2012 03:13 Veldril wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 02:40 Azriel wrote:
Pretty sure they took out the lurker because it ripped the tester's Terran balls to shreds. And thus its replacement the swarm host gets no AOE in order to remain balanced.
This game would be more interesting with automatic formation spreading or something similar. If one of the things that tells great BW players apart from good is stacking, then in SC2 is the splitting the army manually.
It's like... players would be rewarded better if they used more control groups....
It's like... if people just practiced harder instead of whined longer, there wouldn't be a problem....
egad my friend you might be a genius!
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On June 17 2012 03:11 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 02:42 thurst0n wrote:On June 17 2012 00:57 kafkaesque wrote:Hey guys, having had a look at the new units introduced in HotS, I'm really curious about one thing: Why is Blizzard so reluctant to bring back some of the units from Brood War? Take for instance the War Hound: When first it was announced, it seemed to have an Anti-Air missile and operated very much like the Goliath. Back then I was kind of puzzled by how they did not just bring back the Goliath, with the awesome sound any animation of their Anti-Air rockets. Also strange seems the Swarm Host. People asked for the Lurker, people got the Lurker. Well, kind of. A burrowed siege unit that can be used to break fortified positions? Alright, but why give Zerg a unit that's so shockingly similar to the Brood Lord instead of the sleek, horrifying Lurker people love? I am now die hard Broodwar fan, only having heard from it once SC2 was out, only having played ~50 games vs. the computer, only having a very vague idea about how units work. So please don't crucify me if I got something wrong.  What do you think? Probably mainly because this is SC2 not SC. If they wanted to make the same game with better graphics they could have easily done that. They wanted to make a new game, that's what they did. I'm not too worried about it, BW will always be around, and people will always make BW units with the custom editor sooo.. I think you, and a lot of people, are missing the point of this thread. OP is saying that blizz are reluctant to bring back the true bw units themselves despite many of the new units sharing a lot of their features and resemblances. Each of the new units borrows many things from a specific bw unit. viper ->defiler swarm host -> lurker warhound -> goliath battlehelion ->firebat widow mine -> spider mine oracle/mothership ->arbiter The only exception is the tempest. This is in contrast to blizzard's WoL units (that arent exact copies ofc like lings, marines etc), such as colo, roach, marauder, sentry, reaper, corrupter, raven, thor etc etc that don't share similarities to bw units. Only units from WoL that have a similar bw counter part are stalkers and broodlords, at least that i can think of. The question is then, if you're are basically taken the same idea why not just make it the same as the original unit altogether?
Because the game is supposed to be called Starcrat 2: Heart of the Swarm, and not Starcraft: Brood War?
It's what jalstar said in the first page, Blizz can't make the game with units solely or majority from BW and expected to sell. Right now, many people in the mainstream (players who are not bother with Multiplayer that much) is already thinking SC2 as an outdated game (still has resource collection, base building, etc.) so Blizz can't possibly risk make the perception of the game even worse. And those players base might be bigger than the numbers of TL users too. You can't make a game that would not sell.
So they has to come to the middle ground. Make units that would preferably fill the gap of the game by looking at BW as inspiration/idea, yet not exactly copy it.
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On June 17 2012 02:40 Azriel wrote:
Pretty sure they took out the lurker because it ripped the tester's Terran balls to shreds. And thus its replacement the swarm host gets no AOE in order to remain balanced.
This game would be more interesting with automatic formation spreading or something similar.
Do we actually know what level these internal testers are? I doubt any of them have a fragment of the control MKP has -- let alone the mechanics of MKP's macro. I really hope to be proven wrong and told they're pro level.
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They've learned their mistake with the carrier. people need to stop reminiscing about BW realise that SC2 is a different game. with the current game I dont see many BW units making it through being viable anymore. as much as I liked the units or whatever i won't work.
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Canada1470 Posts
On June 17 2012 03:21 Veldril wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 03:11 L3gendary wrote:On June 17 2012 02:42 thurst0n wrote:On June 17 2012 00:57 kafkaesque wrote:Hey guys, having had a look at the new units introduced in HotS, I'm really curious about one thing: Why is Blizzard so reluctant to bring back some of the units from Brood War? Take for instance the War Hound: When first it was announced, it seemed to have an Anti-Air missile and operated very much like the Goliath. Back then I was kind of puzzled by how they did not just bring back the Goliath, with the awesome sound any animation of their Anti-Air rockets. Also strange seems the Swarm Host. People asked for the Lurker, people got the Lurker. Well, kind of. A burrowed siege unit that can be used to break fortified positions? Alright, but why give Zerg a unit that's so shockingly similar to the Brood Lord instead of the sleek, horrifying Lurker people love? I am now die hard Broodwar fan, only having heard from it once SC2 was out, only having played ~50 games vs. the computer, only having a very vague idea about how units work. So please don't crucify me if I got something wrong. What do you think? Probably mainly because this is SC2 not SC. If they wanted to make the same game with better graphics they could have easily done that. They wanted to make a new game, that's what they did. I'm not too worried about it, BW will always be around, and people will always make BW units with the custom editor sooo.. I think you, and a lot of people, are missing the point of this thread. OP is saying that blizz are reluctant to bring back the true bw units themselves despite many of the new units sharing a lot of their features and resemblances. Each of the new units borrows many things from a specific bw unit. viper ->defiler swarm host -> lurker warhound -> goliath battlehelion ->firebat widow mine -> spider mine oracle/mothership ->arbiter The only exception is the tempest. This is in contrast to blizzard's WoL units (that arent exact copies ofc like lings, marines etc), such as colo, roach, marauder, sentry, reaper, corrupter, raven, thor etc etc that don't share similarities to bw units. Only units from WoL that have a similar bw counter part are stalkers and broodlords, at least that i can think of. The question is then, if you're are basically taken the same idea why not just make it the same as the original unit altogether? Because the game is supposed to be called Starcrat 2: Heart of the Swarm, and not Starcraft: Brood War? It's what jalstar said in the first page, Blizz can't make the game with units solely or majority from BW and expected to sell. Right now, many people in the mainstream (players who are not bother with Multiplayer that much) is already thinking SC2 as an outdated game (still has resource collection, base building, etc.) so Blizz can't possibly risk make the perception of the game even worse. And those players base might be bigger than the numbers of TL users too. You can't make a game that would not sell. So they has to come to the middle ground. Make units that would preferably fill the gap of the game by looking at BW as inspiration/idea, yet not exactly copy it.
Well yeah this is exactly what i was getting at. But it's only a middle ground from the marketing perspective of blizzard and not from people that actually play the game and want more competitive merits out of it instead of just novelty.
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To be honest, I'd rather see new units than inferior combinations of old ones. However, the old ones have some fundamental things that I love that I'd love to see in SC2 that would make it better.
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On June 17 2012 03:23 AsymptoticClimax wrote:
They've learned their mistake with the carrier. people need to stop reminiscing about BW realise that SC2 is a different game. with the current game I dont see many BW units making it through being viable anymore. as much as I liked the units or whatever i won't work.
Yes, the carrier taught them a valuable lesson indeed: give up instantly without even trying. I never played bw for the record and alas do not have a nostalgic attachment to the bw carrier.
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On June 17 2012 01:23 lorestarcraft wrote:
Have you guys seriously played BW? That game is awful! And it's not even close to the level of balance that SC2 is. They just "balanced" it through maps and even then, 1 race is seriously UP.
Dustin Browder's enthusiasm for the game and his team dedication to balance and creative is awesome. Any who say other-wise are talking from their butts.
this post made my brain hurt so bad
It's not bad that this red alert guy trying to copy BW units, If in the end makes the game entertaining and not 1a, I'm fine with any units
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i wouldn't mind if they bring back the lurker, i mean you scan and a group of marauders will plow through them. They removed the units that wouldn't work or that would work to good and put in new units. Best thing they can do, to not get called a remake with better graphics.
Actually almost every ability/unit from bw went into sc2. They just moved it to another race and made it more fitting to the race etc.
So its not a reluctance, its more like its already in the game, unless its total waste.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On June 17 2012 01:04 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:03 SimDawg wrote:On June 17 2012 01:00 jalstar wrote:
It's lose-lose for Blizzard. If they bring back exact copies they get flamed for lacking creativity. If they add new units they get flamed because there was nothing wrong with BW units, so why change them? Also Dustin Browder doesn't want to be compared to what might very well end up being a better game. He's worried about his job and his success as a developer. But yeah I think anyone who follows SC closely realizes more BW units is only good. I would love exact copies of BW units, but their review scores would tank. Even WoL was criticized by the mainstream for being too much like BW.
Yeah I mean something people gotta realize is Sc2 is not a niche game (as much as maybe it would be nice for it to be that). If we brought back vultures and lurkers and arbiters game reviewers would be like "looks like it's just BW with a graphics update" and that would be a pretty severe criticism of the game.
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On June 17 2012 02:40 Azriel wrote:
Pretty sure they took out the lurker because it ripped the tester's Terran balls to shreds.
Wait, so it functioned just like BW? What's the problem then? =)
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It's better to make new units specific to SC2 than to try and pigeon-hole in old BW units just for fan-service.
What if the warhound did the same thing as of now but had the goliath model? No one would be happy because that's not how the goliath was in BW. It makes much more sense to have a new unit.
The lurker? We've been there, done that, right? Why re-balance it for SC2 when something as awesome as the Swarm Host can be put in the game?
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On June 17 2012 03:37 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:04 jalstar wrote:On June 17 2012 01:03 SimDawg wrote:On June 17 2012 01:00 jalstar wrote:
It's lose-lose for Blizzard. If they bring back exact copies they get flamed for lacking creativity. If they add new units they get flamed because there was nothing wrong with BW units, so why change them? Also Dustin Browder doesn't want to be compared to what might very well end up being a better game. He's worried about his job and his success as a developer. But yeah I think anyone who follows SC closely realizes more BW units is only good. I would love exact copies of BW units, but their review scores would tank. Even WoL was criticized by the mainstream for being too much like BW. Yeah I mean something people gotta realize is Sc2 is not a niche game (as much as maybe it would be nice for it to be that). If we brought back vultures and lurkers and arbiters game reviewers would be like "looks like it's just BW with a graphics update" and that would be a pretty severe criticism of the game.
yeah i mean its not like the most successful gaming title in the world does that every year. *cough*cod*cough*
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On June 17 2012 02:42 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 02:40 Azriel wrote:
Pretty sure they took out the lurker because it ripped the tester's Terran balls to shreds. And thus its replacement the swarm host gets no AOE in order to remain balanced.
This game would be more interesting with automatic formation spreading or something similar. Let's not turn the game into WarCraft 3 where everything is automated. 
You never played mass talons against orc ... 
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On June 17 2012 03:50 Falcor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 03:37 Blazinghand wrote:On June 17 2012 01:04 jalstar wrote:On June 17 2012 01:03 SimDawg wrote:On June 17 2012 01:00 jalstar wrote:
It's lose-lose for Blizzard. If they bring back exact copies they get flamed for lacking creativity. If they add new units they get flamed because there was nothing wrong with BW units, so why change them? Also Dustin Browder doesn't want to be compared to what might very well end up being a better game. He's worried about his job and his success as a developer. But yeah I think anyone who follows SC closely realizes more BW units is only good. I would love exact copies of BW units, but their review scores would tank. Even WoL was criticized by the mainstream for being too much like BW. Yeah I mean something people gotta realize is Sc2 is not a niche game (as much as maybe it would be nice for it to be that). If we brought back vultures and lurkers and arbiters game reviewers would be like "looks like it's just BW with a graphics update" and that would be a pretty severe criticism of the game. yeah i mean its not like the most successful gaming title in the world does that every year. *cough*cod*cough*
Sadly, what is fair and what is real doesnt always align ;_;
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On June 17 2012 03:51 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 02:42 toiletCAT wrote:On June 17 2012 02:40 Azriel wrote:
Pretty sure they took out the lurker because it ripped the tester's Terran balls to shreds. And thus its replacement the swarm host gets no AOE in order to remain balanced.
This game would be more interesting with automatic formation spreading or something similar. Let's not turn the game into WarCraft 3 where everything is automated. You never played mass talons against orc ...
Of course I did! DotT was my favourite unit, haha.
Sadly, what is fair and what is real doesnt always align ;_;
Doesn't matter because you've got to realize that it's the vast minority who is posting on these forums. Blizzard will cater to the majority, as any other right-minded company would, and the majority is not posting on TL, I'm afraid. (:
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On June 17 2012 02:58 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:22 Grobyc wrote:On June 17 2012 01:00 jalstar wrote:
It's lose-lose for Blizzard. If they bring back exact copies they get flamed for lacking creativity. If they add new units they get flamed because there was nothing wrong with BW units, so why change them? This reply seems the most logical to me. Kind of a shame. I, personally, would be one of the people that would not mind BW units being brought back. The lack of creativity doesn't really bother me. Its not you as much as it is the popular gaming media. If they were to do that, everyone in the BW forums of this site would have rejoiced most likely, but then what would be the point of the game? they could just play brood war instead, it would be like CS:source, a game that is literally the same as the original with some minor tweaks that failed hard because people didn't like the new system. The fact is that the new layout and design has brought many new fans, SC2 is much larger than BW ever was in the foreign field really, if it had just been the same game over again, there would be far fewer new fans, just the old crowd all over again.
1 From a commercial point of view, Source didn't really fail. It sold a good amount of copies.
2 The differences from 1.6 to source are not "minor tweaks". It's similar in that there are two teams, a money system with weapons to buy and objectives. If you think it only has "some minor tweaks" then COD is a lot like counter strike right ? Two teams, you gotta kill ennemies, and you have objectives ...
Source failed on a competitive level because it simply isn't good enough. It's a clear downgrade competition wise. It's even more casual oriented than cs 1.6. It did have a competitive scene, but it never got half as big as the 1.6 one. Also VERYGAMES was raping everyone.
The fact that SC2 has more people than BW has little to do with the "new / different " units, it has everything to do with marketing and simply people not being aware of the existence of the game. Nowadays you have tons and tons of medias and ways to advertise and sell your game, things that did not exist back then, you can EASILY reach out to far more people than you could 15 years ago. Also gaming as a whole has become much much much much much more accepted socially. I don't think the reaper, a unit with bad design that serves almost no purpose, brought many players. I don't think the thor, who also suffers from bad design 1a expensive unit that has OMGBIGASSGUNSANDCANONSONIT brought many players.
Point is, BW design is superior in many ways, but dustin browder says "THIS ISNT BW IF U WANT TO PLAY BW GO PLAY BW" and basically shits on the 15 years of starcraft.
A good example of this is when the starcraft 2 team comes out in an interview and says " OH HEY WE NEVER EXPECTED FOR TERRANS TO MICRO MARINES AGAINST BANELINGS, ( EVEN THO THEY HAVE BEEN SPLITTING MEDIC MARINES VS LURKERS AND USING D MATRIX ON A MARINE STIMMED FORWARD TO TAKE OUT LURKERS ) "
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On June 17 2012 01:26 Torte de Lini wrote:
The new units are suppose to be similar imitations to what BW had. Oracle to Arbiter, Viper to Defiler, Swarm Host -> Lurker.
They all are meant to fit similar roles, just reinvented to both be new and attractive to StarCraft 2 without detracting the creativity and uniqueness of BW units.
Why does no one else understand this? =O
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