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On June 17 2012 00:59 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Because Dustin Browder is cancer with his "go play BW it's a great game" line. He has no talent, is too old, and isn't suited for the job he has. Him and his goons prefer their pride over admitting they introduced fundamental balance flaws that can be fixed by taking a hint from some of the BW units.
Sorry about the negative tone, but it sums up the answer to your question.
Hm who would've known that the whole blizzard dev team is actually comprised of one person.
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EDIT: I'm such a fucking retard because I posted this in the wrong thread. I should really be more careful and less stupid when posting.
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On June 17 2012 01:26 Torte de Lini wrote:
The new units are suppose to be similar imitations to what BW had. Oracle to Arbiter, Viper to Defiler, Swarm Host -> Lurker.
They all are meant to fit similar roles, just reinvented to both be new and attractive to StarCraft 2 without detracting the creativity and uniqueness of BW units.
The only problem I have with looking at it from this logical standpoint is the blatant problem of balance they constantly reintroduce to the game. I mean, it's fine and dandy if you come up with new creative ideas that can be placed into many strategic roles/environments. However, when you keep fumbling around with units like the tempest when you have a Carrier, and other forms of air dominance in the current game that you have not even tried to balance then what is their real goal? Prolong the problems of balance until a major patch, release more units, get rid of old ones, and then tackle new balance problems?
It's really just a sad approach to how to make a competitive game. As I said, I'm all for these new units; but the catch line has to be, are you willing to give up on fundamental issues that the game is already dealing with while you simply toss in new content ?
Personally, I think the answer to that is: No, you'd have to be incredibly dull and have zero intentions of working hard on developing a good game to approach the problem this way.
edit: lol @ the post above me, same stuff 
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On June 17 2012 00:59 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Because Dustin Browder is cancer with his "go play BW it's a great game" line. He has no talent, is too old, and isn't suited for the job he has. Him and his goons prefer their pride over admitting they introduced fundamental balance flaws that can be fixed by taking a hint from some of the BW units.
Sorry about the negative tone, but it sums up the answer to your question.
This.
More specifically, SC2 is incredibly well balanced. That said, it still has some fundamental design flaws, and the majority of them are units that make the game very generic and boring (Colossus, Roach, Marauder). Unfortunately, the SC2 developers refuse to suck up their pride and at least take some inspiration from BW units and make new units/tweak units to make the game more interesting. It seems like they are insulted by constant comparisons from BW so they want to make SC2 completely different and try to make it better than BW to give themselves an ego boost, regardless of the consequences.
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I miss lurkers to be honest because I loved that positional style of play in BW where you have a standoff and have a really satisfying battle. I think the lurker is a lot better in terms of design than the swarm host but ill take the swarm host to be able to not die against terrans who do a simple timing push.
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On June 17 2012 01:12 WArped wrote:
People moan no matter what happens. SC2 is already pretty successful as an eSport but they also gave to cater for different people, new shiny units mean more casual sales, which is potentially more people watching SC2. I am totally fine with them not adding broodwar units as long as they improve the game as a spectators perspective in some way.
So basically you only care about Blizzard's financial success and not the depth of the game itself? People with mindsets like you are the reason SC2 turned out the way it did.
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On June 17 2012 01:38 NukeD wrote:
I think they shot themselves in the foot with their "superior" pathing engine. It simply doesnt allow for a lot of creativity as in trying to make broken units that are spectator friendly ( such as the BW ones). Reason is that it is rather impossible to balance those units because the engine doesnt allow the player enough room to micro against them and making player skill a huge factor in the balance of the game. With perfect pathing balancing the game is a nightmare and tge easy way out is just toning the units down and getting rid of the broken stuff.
Try to tell MarineKing that the pathing is perfect and that his units don't need micro.
Such a common misconception. In SC2 the pathing and army movement is fluid but you have to spend a immense amount of time un-doing that neat ball the game made for you. Since AoE is so strong in SC2 you're constantly fighting the clumping AI.
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I agree with Dustin Browder's stance - if you want BW units, go play BW. It is already theoretically possible to make BW units in the SC2 editor - if there's demand for it, it would've already happened.
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On June 17 2012 01:43 stormchaser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 00:59 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Because Dustin Browder is cancer with his "go play BW it's a great game" line. He has no talent, is too old, and isn't suited for the job he has. Him and his goons prefer their pride over admitting they introduced fundamental balance flaws that can be fixed by taking a hint from some of the BW units.
Sorry about the negative tone, but it sums up the answer to your question. Hm who would've known that the whole blizzard dev team is actually comprised of one person.
I said specifically said "and his goons". Please read before you write next time.
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On June 17 2012 01:23 lorestarcraft wrote:
Have you guys seriously played BW? That game is awful! And it's not even close to the level of balance that SC2 is. They just "balanced" it through maps and even then, 1 race is seriously UP.
Dustin Browder's enthusiasm for the game and his team dedication to balance and creative is awesome. Any who say other-wise are talking from their butts.
I pray to god that this is a sarcastic post and I'm just Romanian.
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I agree with DB as well. WHY do people want BW units, that is the most stupid thing ever! The only reason you would want bw units in SC2 is because BW is dying, therefore you don't want "good" gameplay, you wan't the novelty back.
Play BW if you want bw units, don't wish BW units for SC2 just because it's new. :/
And in a sense most of the new units have roots from BW which is a good thing, but to make completely the same units is just silly. BW units would never work in a SC2 engine, might as well remake the engine. And the animations and the graphics and everything. Re-publish BW with a new name or something...
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Dont forget viper -> defiler, battle helion -> firebat, and oracle/new mothership -> arbiter. The only original ideas blizzard has are terrible (see tempest and most of their WoL units).
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Wander how many of the people saying "this is a new game, do not want the old stuff again" actually played BW, for those units to feel old.
With the exception of a few units, i do not realy care that much for having the BW units back. However, a lot of the "new" stuff, is just vastly inferior.
I now think back to the reasoning DB gave on why the lurker was out; that it ovelaped with banelings. In an actual fight, that might be the case, but the lurker was also a siege unit while the banes are not. Now we will have a new siege unit.
So...wander how well they realy understood the BW units and their roles. Or maybe they intentionaly left gaps so they had something to add in the expansions.
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This isn't about BW 2.0. This is about Blizzard being irrational. They decide that Terran need some type of defensive space control to enhance mech play vs certain races. Well, the spider mine is already taken and they are hell bent on making "new" units exclusively. Their own idea, the shredder, flops terribly. So they re-invent a (pretty shitty) wheel in the form of the widow mine that uses different and unnecessarily complicated mechanics and is harder to balance.
Almost the same thing happened with the warhound. For a while the warhound for all intents and purposes WAS a goliath, only uglier and with a different name. They even had a suitable model already in-game, but decided against it.
It's so silly because SC2 can never be BW 2.0 no matter how hard you try because of the engine being different.
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The new units are just dumbed down versions of brood war units. They are essentially re-introducing the brood war units but under different names.
Hellion battle mode + widow mine serves the same purpose as spider mines- control space
Warhound = Goliath? except it can't shoot up? its a backbone unit for mech terrans.
Swarm Host is a Lurker with no splash damage
The viper has almost the same exact spells as the defiler
Muscular augmentation is in sc1.
The mothership / mothership core and Oracle are functioning like the arbiter - i even heard stasis field might be in?
the only really new concept is the tempest, and what do they come up with? 22 range. hmmmm.....
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On June 17 2012 01:51 Azzur wrote:
I agree with Dustin Browder's stance - if you want BW units, go play BW. It is already theoretically possible to make BW units in the SC2 editor - if there's demand for it, it would've already happened.
It has.
Oh, and instead of plugging your ears and screaming, "LALALALA GO PLAY BROODWAR", pay attention to the actual problems. BW is only mentioned because it set a standard for interesting and dynamic gameplay to both play and watch.
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On June 17 2012 01:55 Andr3 wrote:
I agree with DB as well. WHY do people want BW units, that is the most stupid thing ever! The only reason you would want bw units in SC2 is because BW is dying, therefore you don't want "good" gameplay, you wan't the novelty back.
Spoken like a true person who bought SC2 in 2010 and has never played BW in his life beyond one or two times. There's no novelty in wanting a game that isn't a mess from a design perspective.
It's not that people are opting for the exact same units it's just that more experienced veterns who have been around realize that taking a hint from BW would do a lot of good for SC2. There's a reason the game lasted 14 years despite newer titles coming out every single year.
Your extreme ignorance on everything you're talking about is blatantly disrespectful to the greatest RTS of all time, and honestly you should be given a vacation because of such an absurd post. Once again: we don't want a BW copy. We want SC2 devs to take a lesson and drop their egos.
On June 17 2012 TheFish7 wrote:
The new units are just dumbed down versions of brood war units. They are essentially re-introducing the brood war units but under different names.
Warhound = Goliath? except it can't shoot up? its a backbone unit for mech terrans.
Going to add that your comparison isn't entirely accruate as the Goliath isn't the backbone of mech in BW. The tank is which is why mech was so unique, and why the SC2 developers do not understand what mech is. In SC2 it's turning out to be MMM from the factory with the new warhound.
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Some of it might be because of lore reasons. They might make the Warhound have the exact same stats as the Goliath does, but if they just brought back the Goliath people might ask why wasn't it used in WoL. Maybe they have a nice campaign for HotS^^
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On June 17 2012 01:09 sharky246 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:00 jalstar wrote:
It's lose-lose for Blizzard. If they bring back exact copies they get flamed for lacking creativity. If they add new units they get flamed because there was nothing wrong with BW units, so why change them? Would they really get flamed for bringing exact copies? I mean look at dota 2, it is exactly the same as dota 1, just better graphics, nobody is flaming them for lack of creativity.
Trust me, if you have seen the comment from the mainstream site, you would see it as much as the criticism from BW side, or even more. Most people just labelled it as "outdated" RTS.
SC2 is one of the hardest game to be designed. It had to conform to what BW did, and at the same time it has to catch up with the current RTS design, which is really really hard to do both at the same time.
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I'm on the same boat as the OP. Never had interest in BW until after SC2 came out. I had noticed they make similar units, but different enough that they can call them theirs.
The swarm host and the warhound are good examples, except that both suck compared with their BW counterparts, this coming from someone who isn't even a BW fan, should tell them something. Both the lurker and the goliath are strikingly similar to the host and hound, but i personally find the formers having cooler dynamics.
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EPT
