Flightan and jalstar are right, game developers want to explore new options to make a new game. It's pretty clear to anyone with half a brain that Starcraft II is NOT Brood War... and that rubs a lot of people the wrong way.
You can go back to BW for inspiration and a model for balance, but only to a point. Again, SC2 isn't Brood War, and many of the intricacies of BW "balance" is based on every other unit, upgrade, and metagame functions such as game speed, player view, unit control, etc. To balance or fundamentally change and aspect of the game requires messing with another aspect of the game.
For example, Suppose we wanted to bring back Zerg Scourge. Well, that would probably screw up the way Terran armies work right now, with their healing units up in the air. So to balance that we might consider adding some sustain for the Terrans on the ground, say, the old Medics. They get built of out the Barracks, logically, but if we do that then they'll be available earlier, which means the game is imbalanced again... and so it goes. The only solution we know is to simply copy Brood War, because it seems like it works well, but then SC2 wouldn't be much of SC2.
To say that BW has all the solutions to SC2's supposed "problems" is a misguided notion and has been spending a bit too much time looking at that game through the rose-colored glasses.
On June 17 2012 01:02 Flightan wrote: My guess is because, as a game developer, it really isn't fun to do the same things over and over again, you would much rather invent new stuff. Imagine being the one that came up with the idea of the colossus, you can then be proud because it is being loved by many, it really isn't the same as just re-coding the reaver.
Good choice of the colossus ;D Loved by many, feared by all.
On June 17 2012 01:10 Dahlian wrote: This will quickly turn out to be another SC II bash thread as it seems. Starcraft II is a different game with different mechanics. Even if you would reintroduce all that is brood war it would probably play out differently. Also it is not Blizzards intent to copy BW. Dustin Browder even said they would reintroduce the Goliath instead of the Warhound if they have to, balance wise ( I think, correct me if I'm wrong) but they want to create a new game with new ideas. The cool thing about it is that they dont force new ideas closed mindedly, they only favor them. At least that's how I feel about it. I personally like that approach seeing how everyone complains about CoD etc always being the same. SC II is not BW with different graphics obviously and consequently it shouldnt be viewed as such. Since BW is such a great game why would you make another game when BW is already out there and playable? Better Graphics for better enjoyability of the viewers I would guess but even the step from 2D to 3D would make it feel very differently. Improving the AI would have huge consequences, too, I think.
Why label it a bash thread when so far, literally nobody has bashed SC2. There is a legitimate concern about Blizzard attempting to reinvent the wheel at the detriment to the game. Needless to say there's nothing more than a superficial BW vs SC2 argument to be made here. You can call out people for that shit AFTER it happens, not before. All it does is make a self fulfilling prophecy.
The viking is for all intents and purposes a goliath that was given the ability to fly. Look at their rough stats and even the way their attacks work, its extremely similar. Lower range/damage machine guns against ground targets and long range missiles against air. Adding the goliath would create quite a bit of overlap in the terran army.
The lurker is in the game and they tried many ways to make it work during WOL alpha/beta, but eventually scrapped it. They couldn't find a place for it in the tech tree, I'm guessing it was pretty impossible to balance because of how the units ball up. I bet you can find more dev comments on it if you just look for them.
if anyone wants more BW units..... they should play BW....
i am really excited for the HOTS units and while there are similarities to BW units... i feel that abilities such as abduct and entomb.... are really unique and will add something new to the game...
Sc2 is already extremely derivative of BW, there's so much of the same things in there that have just been renamed. While I think the Warhound looks kinda dumb(I wouldnt mind the unit if they changed the art), it's not a goliath, because the goliath is still in Sc2, as the Viking, he just had to change his look after the Thor stole his art design away. And you don't like the swarm host...... because it's not the lurker? That's not a good reason. The zerg have evolved since the Brood Wars a decade ago. Lurkers evolved into swarm hosts. They give you the new lurker, and you complain that it's not the old lurker. If you are that difficult to please, then only going back to playing BW will please you. I thought the swarm was supposed to be a single-minded ever advancing sisyphean horde, not an self-destructive internal struggle to cling to failing traditions, like those Protoss nubs they overran on Aiur.
I think he was right when he said that making SC2 is going to be like making basketball 2. Its insanely difficult to do. At least hes got the balls to try.
On June 17 2012 01:00 jalstar wrote: It's lose-lose for Blizzard. If they bring back exact copies they get flamed for lacking creativity. If they add new units they get flamed because there was nothing wrong with BW units, so why change them?
This reply seems the most logical to me. Kind of a shame. I, personally, would be one of the people that would not mind BW units being brought back. The lack of creativity doesn't really bother me.
Have you guys seriously played BW? That game is awful! And it's not even close to the level of balance that SC2 is. They just "balanced" it through maps and even then, 1 race is seriously UP.
Dustin Browder's enthusiasm for the game and his team dedication to balance and creative is awesome. Any who say other-wise are talking from their butts.
It's one thing to try be original but the blatant remakes of the same kind of unit with the same role(warhound, widowmine) or another additional uncreative long range A-move units(i.e tempest) just makes me want to facepalm. The widow mine is also pretty bad compared to the spidermine. Woohoo it can hit air and has a 10 sec timer before explosion? Just bring back spider mine already, it was perfect and useful as it was and can even punish its user when poorly placed. Dark Swarm is also back in another form in HoTS, why are high templars allowed to return but not defilers in the first place anyway? I also miss the reaver and hate the collosus when it comes to how entertaining they are to watch comparatively. BW's unit design are just fantastic compared to SC2, it's actually pretty sad. How long are terran bioblob vs protoss blob fights gonna remain entertaining to play and watch? It's already old for me a few months ago.
lurkers and reavers would obliterate everything due to the "ball" effect that the units have in this game. I'm happy to see new units although I miss when everything was either a ling or a -lisk for the most part (for zerg)
The new units are suppose to be similar imitations to what BW had. Oracle to Arbiter, Viper to Defiler, Swarm Host -> Lurker.
They all are meant to fit similar roles, just reinvented to both be new and attractive to StarCraft 2 without detracting the creativity and uniqueness of BW units.
I might be off-topic but you can play the Starbow mod which takes some of the Brood War units and puts them together into StarCraft 2 a long with some interesting changes.
It's really fun and you can help the creator the mod balance it out and give ideas to improve it even more. It is extremely similar to what the OP is saying about wanting to have Brood War units into StarCraft 2.
I say just bring back a defiler(get rid of viper/infestor) and have the defiler do fungal and cloud... swarm host is kinda gay tbh, I'd much rather a lurker. Who cares about creativity, we want a game that is great to play and makes sense. Some of the HotS units seem way to op... especially the viper.
On June 17 2012 01:26 Torte de Lini wrote: The new units are suppose to be similar imitations to what BW had. Oracle to Arbiter, Viper to Defiler, Swarm Host -> Lurker.
They all are meant to fit similar roles, just reinvented to both be new and attractive to StarCraft 2 without detracting the creativity and uniqueness of BW units.
Basically this. They fill the same roles as some BW units, but in practice, they're very different and (in some cases) more interesting. Why *would* you just bring back BW units, honestly? SC2 is not BW. Why wouldn't you try to come up with some more creative solutions?
I think they shot themselves in the foot with their "superior" pathing engine. It simply doesnt allow for a lot of creativity as in trying to make broken units that are spectator friendly ( such as the BW ones). Reason is that it is rather impossible to balance those units because the engine doesnt allow the player enough room to micro against them and making player skill a huge factor in the balance of the game. With perfect pathing balancing the game is a nightmare and tge easy way out is just toning the units down and getting rid of the broken stuff.
On June 17 2012 01:12 Eshez wrote: I'm really glad they're not tossing in BW units. Some people don't want to play a reuniformed BW. I loved the Lurker, Defiler, Science Vessel and Reaver but I want some new shit in here for SC2.
I absolutely agree with this, the problem is that the new units kind of suck. As a Protoss player, the Colossus is such a friggin' boring unit to play with! The warhound just looks and plays dumb as all hell. Its not that I want all the BW units back, I would love to get new shiny units! But the new units they are putting in are stupid and dont really look like any fun.
EPT
