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On July 25 2012 00:28 RampancyTW wrote:
The Widow Mine is almost nothing like a Terrordrone, other than the fact that it doesn't immediately kill a mechanical unit.
Small cheap vulnerable unit that shares a techpath with powerful mechanical units, gives you mapcontrol and attacks by attaching itself to a unit, which gives the opponent some time to minimize the damage? Sounds a lot like the concept for a Terrordrone to me.
True, it is a very Starcraftesque version of the Terrordrone, but as far as I have tested it in the HotS custom map, it shares a ton of dynamics with the Terrordrone.
But yeah, I wish they made it faster, gave it some form of channeling lockdown spell and cut the warhound 
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Never thought of it like that. I suppose they ARE somewhat similar in role.
The actual mechanics of their use are very, very different though.
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On July 25 2012 00:48 RampancyTW wrote:
Never thought of it like that. I suppose they ARE somewhat similar in role.
The actual mechanics of their use are very, very different though.
yeah ofc. It's obviously somewhat similar to the spider mine as well, but I mean... it's a dustin browder game, guess what was a Dustin Browder game as well 
There is obviously some thought behind it and I do like it. After all, we are talking about one of the better RTS units of all time
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On July 25 2012 00:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 00:28 RampancyTW wrote:
The Widow Mine is almost nothing like a Terrordrone, other than the fact that it doesn't immediately kill a mechanical unit. Small cheap vulnerable unit that shares a techpath with powerful mechanical units, gives you mapcontrol and attacks by attaching itself to a unit, which gives the opponent some time to minimize the damage? Sounds a lot like the concept for a Terrordrone to me.
There's a difference between "two units having a similar overall gameplay function" and "copy-and-past from another game." I was talking about the latter, which is what the entire idea behind this thread is: transforming the former into the latter simply because that's how SC1 did it.
Any unit idea is going to be reminiscent of something in another RTS game. But there's a difference between "reminiscent" and "put Lurkers in SC2."
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On July 25 2012 04:32 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 00:37 Big J wrote:On July 25 2012 00:28 RampancyTW wrote:
The Widow Mine is almost nothing like a Terrordrone, other than the fact that it doesn't immediately kill a mechanical unit. Small cheap vulnerable unit that shares a techpath with powerful mechanical units, gives you mapcontrol and attacks by attaching itself to a unit, which gives the opponent some time to minimize the damage? Sounds a lot like the concept for a Terrordrone to me. There's a difference between "two units having a similar overall gameplay function" and "copy-and-past from another game." I was talking about the latter, which is what the entire idea behind this thread is: transforming the former into the latter simply because that's how SC1 did it. Any unit idea is going to be reminiscent of something in another RTS game. But there's a difference between "reminiscent" and "put Lurkers in SC2."
Well, I completly agree with you. The original post from me said that I'm completly fine with adopting units from any game. I just do think, that people will have a very negative attitude towards such, because a lot of people are suffering from the misconception that it's the unit design, that make the RTS and therefore units from RTS games that are not BW are not good.
On the flipside those people often think, that things have to be very BWesque and it's quite hard to argue with that, because after all BW was probably the best RTS up to SC2 (well, some people will argue they prefer WC3, but you get what I want to say) and a lot of it will always come down to flavor. Yet I'm completly with you, SC2 is not Broodwar and no matter how much you try to fit BW units into SC2, they won't work out the same way unless the enviroment is somewhat the same - at which point it becomes a graphical update, imo.
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I actually think bw 3d would of been a better idea than sc2
but thats just my opinion having grown up with both games
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I had this brilliant idea as well. Let's take a game that is arguably dead, grab its units, and put them in this other game that has been thriving without the dead game's units.
Let's also fix (because obv. it's broken) this new game, because last time I checked, it's not exactly the same as this other dead game I love. This other dead game I love is exciting and epic, and exciting. It is very epic, with epic battles, and epic units. This other new game is just not epic, I'm sorry. It's not exciting or epic, either. So we have to fix it, because it's clearly broken.
Bring back the lurker, restore the honour. 2012.
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On July 26 2012 03:58 fer wrote:
I had this brilliant idea as well. Let's take a game that is arguably dead, grab its units, and put them in this other game that has been thriving without the dead game's units.
Let's also fix (because obv. it's broken) this new game, because last time I checked, it's not exactly the same as this other dead game I love. This other dead game I love is exciting and epic, and exciting. It is very epic, with epic battles, and epic units. This other new game is just not epic, I'm sorry. It's not exciting or epic, either. So we have to fix it, because it's clearly broken.
Bring back the lurker, restore the honour. 2012.
you figured out that the thread is about broodwar units in sc2?
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Im so tired of listening to people say "If you want x unit , go play BW you scrub!!!" . I know DB was one of the idiots that said go play bw if you think its so great.
You know what? This IS a sequel. It has STARCRAFT in its title ffs!!
As of matter of fact, since this game is trying so hard NOT to be starcraft, it shouldn't be called starcraft...
EDIT
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On July 26 2012 04:50 hpTheGreat wrote:
Im so tired of listening to people say "If you want x unit , go play BW you scrub!!!" . I know DB was one of the idiots that said go play bw if you think its so great.
You know what? This IS a sequel. It has STARCRAFT in its title ffs!!
As of matter of fact, since this game is trying so hard NOT to be starcraft, it shouldn't be called starcraft...
EDIT
id prefer starcraft 2 tried to be starcraft 2 and starcraft 1 stay starcraft 1. I agree with dustin browder, its still there , go play it.
Im glad they did not just remake sc1, because if they did. People would have grown bord of it really fast. And instead of people complaining about how bad sc2 is, they would be saying .. "all blizzard did was slap 3d graphics on the game and try to cash in again with no effort". Either way they come out like the bad guys.
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why would we downgrade? adding bw units would be boring. We know what they do. We have seen it before for past 10 years. Lets not be stuck on a game thats 14 years old
PS. Being a sequel doesnt mean its EXACT SAME GAME WITH BETTER GRAPHICS...thats called an expansion
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On July 26 2012 05:04 SuperYo1000 wrote:
why would we downgrade? adding bw units would be boring. We know what they do. We have seen it before for past 10 years. Lets not be stuck on a game thats 14 years old
PS. Being a sequel doesnt mean its EXACT SAME GAME WITH BETTER GRAPHICS...thats called an expansion
doesn't mean you should go backwards in game design. >_>
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On July 26 2012 05:00 johnny123 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 04:50 hpTheGreat wrote:
Im so tired of listening to people say "If you want x unit , go play BW you scrub!!!" . I know DB was one of the idiots that said go play bw if you think its so great.
You know what? This IS a sequel. It has STARCRAFT in its title ffs!!
As of matter of fact, since this game is trying so hard NOT to be starcraft, it shouldn't be called starcraft...
EDIT id prefer starcraft 2 tried to be starcraft 2 and starcraft 1 stay starcraft 1. I agree with dustin browder, its still there , go play it. Im glad they did not just remake sc1, because if they did. People would have grown bord of it really fast. And instead of people complaining about how bad sc2 is, they would be saying .. "all blizzard did was slap 3d graphics on the game and try to cash in again with no effort". Either way they come out like the bad guys.
Okay a gaming sequel is suppose to be an improvement upon the original w/o altering the designs set by the predecessors but to build upon those pillars. See none of these talks would have happened if they introduced better system than the original.
Lol its like a car company still having critics saying that "Well I guess this drives is pretty smooth but man that one model they introduced a decade ago is still sweeter."
And oh if they just made Brood War in 3D, they whole S.Korean scene would have switched in a heartbeat and we would have already seen the game played at the highest level AND we would have new fans joining in. Really, its the best of both world. Make new fans and render the loyalist satisfied. Now we got to wait like another decade.
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IMO it doesn't make sense for Dustin Browder to say, "If you want BW units, go play BW," if a bunch of people playing his game are asking for BW units. In the thread here on TL the Lurker crushed the Swarm Host in every category (See: Lurker vs. Swarm Host), so obviously it's more liked than the Swarm Host. Why would a guy who's making a video game, who wants to make money, and therefore wants to appeal to the most people he can ignore the requests of his consumers?!?!?!
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Keeping sc2 unique is not really any reason to avoid re-introducing BW units.. the unit pathing is so good in sc2 that it is nothing like BW. Even if we were to copy paste every single unit from BW, it would still be nothing like BW.
Lurker would be an interesting unit, but what kind of a tech tree would suit them? Evolve from hydras? Hydras suck in this game.. evolved from roaches at lair tech I guess.
What I really want to say though is that it is in the best interest of the game to keep all units simple. Completely unlike what I've seen of HOTS so far. Introducing all sorts of technical herpderp units is only going to turn this game into a clusterfuck without equilibrium strategies with the result that winning single sets will be even more luck based than it already is.
To keep units simple, but to still have interesting units, we need brilliance. And brilliance is a characteristic blizzard has been woefully short on for the last several years.
I conclude that the best option most likely is to bring back broodwar units. Long live carriers lurkers and defilers! And replace vikings with wraith fighters and there's that whole carriers-suck-ass problem solved as well.
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Canada11369 Posts
On July 26 2012 05:00 johnny123 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 04:50 hpTheGreat wrote:
Im so tired of listening to people say "If you want x unit , go play BW you scrub!!!" . I know DB was one of the idiots that said go play bw if you think its so great.
You know what? This IS a sequel. It has STARCRAFT in its title ffs!!
As of matter of fact, since this game is trying so hard NOT to be starcraft, it shouldn't be called starcraft...
EDIT id prefer starcraft 2 tried to be starcraft 2 and starcraft 1 stay starcraft 1. I agree with dustin browder, its still there , go play it. Im glad they did not just remake sc1, because if they did. People would have grown bord of it really fast. And instead of people complaining about how bad sc2 is, they would be saying .. "all blizzard did was slap 3d graphics on the game and try to cash in again with no effort". Either way they come out like the bad guys.
I don't think people would miss bw units near so much if SC2 units showed an understanding of how important unit handling was to make BW into such an competitive game as well as an excellent spectator experience. I'm actually not as convinced that SC2 is as easy for non-Starcraft players to view as people make out.
That and if units demonstrated a solid understanding of synergy. I cannot emphasize enough the importance of having some sort of protective cover that allowed melee games to close the gap to remain viable late game against strong ranged, positional defence. (Dark swarm or mobile/ multiple cloaking fields.) There are so many interesting unit synergies that completely transforms the late game that I rarely see in SC2 beyond the big Vortex hit or miss.
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On July 26 2012 05:13 Kontys wrote:
Keeping sc2 unique is not really any reason to avoid re-introducing BW units.. the unit pathing is so good in sc2 that it is nothing like BW. Even if we were to copy paste every single unit from BW, it would still be nothing like BW.
Lurker would be an interesting unit, but what kind of a tech tree would suit them? Evolve from hydras? Hydras suck in this game.. evolved from roaches at lair tech I guess.
What I really want to say though is that it is in the best interest of the game to keep all units simple. Completely unlike what I've seen of HOTS so far. Introducing all sorts of technical herpderp units is only going to turn this game into a clusterfuck without equilibrium strategies with the result that winning single sets will be even more luck based than it already is.
To keep units simple, but to still have interesting units, we need brilliance. And brilliance is a characteristic blizzard has been woefully short on for the last several years.
I conclude that the best option most likely is to bring back broodwar units. Long live carriers lurkers and defilers! And replace vikings with wraith fighters and there's that whole carriers-suck-ass problem solved as well.
As long as they remove all theee banal units out of the game and get refreshing ones, I'm fine. Like the Viper, oh yeah that's one good unit that I would want to play with along with Hydras. Like use its tentacles and the Hydralisks rapes them from the back.
Or Stalkers/Force Field, ummm another sweet loving combos.
I can't really say anything for Terrans tbh lol. The Stim-Pull back-hold position marine micro isn't that impressive at all.
But what I feel is that WoL have done early Protoss game really well with cool units like Stalkers/Force Field and Pheonixs
But then at Tier 3, the race start to fall apart with Carriers and Collosi
Zergs were okay, I actually love Roaches (fav unit of the race). Bannelings is like 50/50 for me that none actually use it to ambush because it is more recommended to keep your guys close knit so its detonation use is underpowered.
Then Terran which is....the only innovation was that Thor could be build using SCV and Nukes can be used faster.
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I don't get why people say "Keep SC1 as SC1 and SC2 as SC2" Why? Because you cannot play SC1 much anymore. Go into the client there are 5-15 games on the list(at least where I got on from). The theory behind "Keep SC1 as SC1 and SC2 as SC2" is that the better game will get more people. That isn't a good reason because people will naturally flock to SC2 because of the graphics, marketing, and hype, whereas BW look old and blocky. Until there is a BW with as much graphics, and marketing behind it that makes people want to hype it up it is an unfair battle to determine what is actually better or not.
As of late with the introduction of things like BF3 and this argument of HOTS and BW I've been wondering how much better games could be if game history and understanding classics like BF2142/2 and BW respectively by making them in a modern setting (much the same as musicians have to play music to fully understand it) would effect the result of the sequel.
Games being games, no one really ever knows what really makes the best possible game because it could apply different things to different people. Sometimes bugs make games what they are(IE Tribes), and sometimes the difficulty of the game is what makes the game the most enjoyable and then allows people to find comfort in little things like "What this unit sounds like". Simplicity and realism have over time been problematic in some cases and amazing in others, I think that now is the time that people need to start to seriously analyze games across all time periods to determine what unideal things of popular game made it the most popular.
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On July 26 2012 05:04 SuperYo1000 wrote:
why would we downgrade? adding bw units would be boring. We know what they do. We have seen it before for past 10 years. Lets not be stuck on a game thats 14 years old
PS. Being a sequel doesnt mean its EXACT SAME GAME WITH BETTER GRAPHICS...thats called an expansion
I don't think you really thought through what you just wrote there.
The BW units in sc2 right now are the ones that are actually bringing excitement when they are controlled by the very best. What the fuck would TvZ be without Marines, Siege Tanks, Dropships, Ghosts, Zerglings, Mutalisks and Ultras? There is a reason TvZ is the best matchup in sc2 - because it's core is similar how TvZ was played in BW.
What are the best units when it comes to Protoss for you in sc2? I think Zealots and High Templar together with a Shuttle (Warp Prism) are like the only exciting with Protoss in sc2 (Blink stalkers can be cool too, an improvement over Dragoons for sure). Look at Oz vs Stephano on Entombed Valley when Oz went for a really BW-esque type of PvZ with alot of multipronged drops with Warp Prism together with zealots, high templars and dark templars. This combo is also what makes BW Protoss such an awesome fucking race. Is it so hard to understand why people would like say, have the Reaver which makes an awesome partner with a shuttle rather than the most hated unit ever, Colossi? It all makes even more sence to try out when we see how good TvZ, TvT and ZvP can be when they are played in a similar fashion how they are in BW.
Without BW units/concepts, what would sc2 even be today? But then again, I'm probably just a bw fanboy being nostalgic, right?
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What worries me the most is this....
Clearly the devs on Diablo 3 did not want their game to become Dablo2: 3D. So they set about changing things to try and make the game appeal to a wider audience. We all know how well that went - the changed the formula and Diablo franchise ruined.
they did the same thing to World of Warcraft - the original was different in many ways than Wrath or Cata - they kept listening to the whiners and they kept changing things to streamline the experience, and make it accessible to more people. Rather than copy the dark atmosphere of WC2, they changed things and made it a cartoon land.
Now the same thing is happening to Starcraft - they are trying to change things to make them better instead of sticking to the tried and true formula. I really hope they don't end up ruining their last franchise.
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