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Personally I think that a lot of the new HoTS units are going in the right direction by following the BW design philosophy of: 'If everything is OP then the game is balanced'. I mean, on their own, just about every new unit for each race seems overpowered, but because every race receives a unit of this sort, it will lead to a more interesting dynamic.
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On June 09 2012 13:15 Roarer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 12:50 Elvin wrote:
I like the fact that terran gets absolutely nothing new against zerg in HotS.
Warhound is only good against mechanical units ,zerg has none.
Widow mines are bullshit since they'll just attach to zerglings which will make them into an ultimate allahu akhbar unit.
Transformer hellions are without comment ,do not see any use for them in TvZ. I do think Terran changes will have an effect to the TvZ match up... with mines can be reactored out ..., Terran can definitely hold off eoch banes pushes easily. Moreover .. the transformed hellion can boost the power of the infamous marauder hellion push...which means zerg may not be able to take the third that quickly / safely. However, it seems the anti-air weapon are taken away from the warhounds ...
Don't forget that reapers have regeneration now and their speed upgrade no longer requires factory tech . So we could see a lot of cool reaper builds that may set you up better economy wise in the middle game then in WOL .
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On June 09 2012 13:45 oogieogie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 13:06 Plethora wrote:On June 09 2012 12:47 -Exalt- wrote:On June 09 2012 12:44 Plethora wrote:
Know what I'm deciding I dislike most about SC2 and all these new units are just hammering home? The lack of anything fun and microable...
I miss vultures, reaver & shuttle, muta micro, hell even marine vs lurker micro.
What are the most microable units in SC2?
Reaper (nerfed to the point of being irrelevent)
Banshees maybe? Blink Stalkers? Both have some fun micro tricks but nothing thats really going to make a crowd ooh and ahh. I think the coolest microing in SC2 is probably marine splitting vs banelings. That's one of the very few things you can watch a pro do and really just kinda marvel at sometimes. Aside from that, what is there? the oracle isn't micro-able and won't rely on multitasking/micro late game? oh, ok. what about a new mech TvP that will involve a lot of hellions that can be dropped / microd at protoss expansions, or mines that can be placed at mineral fields, etc. that isn't just as micro intensive as spam right-clicking a flock of mutas? ok. The kind of thing I'm talking about is a unit that, if microed well, can kill many times its cost in enemy units but if microed poorly will just die without doing much of anything. I never said anything about multi-tasking. I don't have that much of a problem with multi-tasking demands in SC2. Just take a vulture... a-move a vulture and it'll die to just about anything in the game. Do some top teir Korean micro with a vulture and it is capable of killing basically infinity zealots. What unit in SC2 can do that? stalker vs marine?
his quote is "..still like brood war better.." so yeah.. gl arguing with a brick wall
On June 09 2012 12:40 Nagano wrote:
Oracle entomb delays up to 31 seconds? Basically reducing income by 50% if cast once per minute? -.-
And abduct, don't have to say much about how this ability pretty much ruins any type of positional play. Especially when you combine it with Consume, you pretty much always have it up.
do people not realize that the mineral-block can easily be attacked/ destroyed?? IMO it's comparable to a weak unit drop in a mineral like, your probes lose mining time but you can deal with it easily if you have the apm. some speedlings will probably clean it up in seconds (assuming they didn't change the mechanic and they are still attackable).
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Ultra charge looks imba! I'm really sad that many things are making tanks useless....
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Looking pretty good so far. Don't really like the 22 range tempest and viper yank.
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On June 09 2012 13:53 Black[CAT] wrote:
Ultra charge looks imba! I'm really sad that many things are making tanks useless....
Tanks will still be big inTvT and mid game ZvT imo. Warhounds will make TvT more exciting because it wont be a pure positional campfest ( which is sometimes fun but not great for spectators), and ultras dont come out till late game so...
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On June 09 2012 13:52 -Exalt- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 13:45 oogieogie wrote:On June 09 2012 13:06 Plethora wrote:On June 09 2012 12:47 -Exalt- wrote:On June 09 2012 12:44 Plethora wrote:
Know what I'm deciding I dislike most about SC2 and all these new units are just hammering home? The lack of anything fun and microable...
I miss vultures, reaver & shuttle, muta micro, hell even marine vs lurker micro.
What are the most microable units in SC2?
Reaper (nerfed to the point of being irrelevent)
Banshees maybe? Blink Stalkers? Both have some fun micro tricks but nothing thats really going to make a crowd ooh and ahh. I think the coolest microing in SC2 is probably marine splitting vs banelings. That's one of the very few things you can watch a pro do and really just kinda marvel at sometimes. Aside from that, what is there? the oracle isn't micro-able and won't rely on multitasking/micro late game? oh, ok. what about a new mech TvP that will involve a lot of hellions that can be dropped / microd at protoss expansions, or mines that can be placed at mineral fields, etc. that isn't just as micro intensive as spam right-clicking a flock of mutas? ok. The kind of thing I'm talking about is a unit that, if microed well, can kill many times its cost in enemy units but if microed poorly will just die without doing much of anything. I never said anything about multi-tasking. I don't have that much of a problem with multi-tasking demands in SC2. Just take a vulture... a-move a vulture and it'll die to just about anything in the game. Do some top teir Korean micro with a vulture and it is capable of killing basically infinity zealots. What unit in SC2 can do that? stalker vs marine? his quote is "..still like brood war better.." so yeah.. gl arguing with a brick wall Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 12:40 Nagano wrote:
Oracle entomb delays up to 31 seconds? Basically reducing income by 50% if cast once per minute? -.-
And abduct, don't have to say much about how this ability pretty much ruins any type of positional play. Especially when you combine it with Consume, you pretty much always have it up.
do people not realize that the mineral-block can easily be attacked/ destroyed?? IMO it's comparable to a weak unit drop in a mineral like, your probes lose mining time but you can deal with it easily if you have the apm. some speedlings will probably clean it up in seconds (assuming they didn't change the mechanic and they are still attackable).
drops and harassment is more than just dealing damage, it is about controlling the opponent's army position as well
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On June 09 2012 12:50 Elvin wrote:
I like the fact that terran gets absolutely nothing new against zerg in HotS.
[snip]
Widow mines are bullshit since they'll just attach to zerglings which will make them into an ultimate allahu akhbar unit.
If I interpreted the Battle Report correctly, you can choose which units the mines attach to. "Smart spider mines" was what I heard.
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Is there going to be more battlereports?
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On June 09 2012 13:58 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 13:52 -Exalt- wrote:On June 09 2012 13:45 oogieogie wrote:On June 09 2012 13:06 Plethora wrote:On June 09 2012 12:47 -Exalt- wrote:On June 09 2012 12:44 Plethora wrote:
Know what I'm deciding I dislike most about SC2 and all these new units are just hammering home? The lack of anything fun and microable...
I miss vultures, reaver & shuttle, muta micro, hell even marine vs lurker micro.
What are the most microable units in SC2?
Reaper (nerfed to the point of being irrelevent)
Banshees maybe? Blink Stalkers? Both have some fun micro tricks but nothing thats really going to make a crowd ooh and ahh. I think the coolest microing in SC2 is probably marine splitting vs banelings. That's one of the very few things you can watch a pro do and really just kinda marvel at sometimes. Aside from that, what is there? the oracle isn't micro-able and won't rely on multitasking/micro late game? oh, ok. what about a new mech TvP that will involve a lot of hellions that can be dropped / microd at protoss expansions, or mines that can be placed at mineral fields, etc. that isn't just as micro intensive as spam right-clicking a flock of mutas? ok. The kind of thing I'm talking about is a unit that, if microed well, can kill many times its cost in enemy units but if microed poorly will just die without doing much of anything. I never said anything about multi-tasking. I don't have that much of a problem with multi-tasking demands in SC2. Just take a vulture... a-move a vulture and it'll die to just about anything in the game. Do some top teir Korean micro with a vulture and it is capable of killing basically infinity zealots. What unit in SC2 can do that? stalker vs marine? his quote is "..still like brood war better.." so yeah.. gl arguing with a brick wall On June 09 2012 12:40 Nagano wrote:
Oracle entomb delays up to 31 seconds? Basically reducing income by 50% if cast once per minute? -.-
And abduct, don't have to say much about how this ability pretty much ruins any type of positional play. Especially when you combine it with Consume, you pretty much always have it up.
do people not realize that the mineral-block can easily be attacked/ destroyed?? IMO it's comparable to a weak unit drop in a mineral like, your probes lose mining time but you can deal with it easily if you have the apm. some speedlings will probably clean it up in seconds (assuming they didn't change the mechanic and they are still attackable). drops and harassment is more than just dealing damage, it is about controlling the opponent's army position as well
That's the thing though, entombed doesn't do that.
Depending how much hp they have, like 6 supply of zerglings is probably able to clean it up in about the amount of time you'd lose to an actual drop, but with zero losses on either side. So once there's a dozen lings at each mineral line, entombed requires zero reaction.
In comparison, a drop always requires a reaction because you never quite know what's going to come out of it and always want to be sure you have overwhelming force to defend, because that minimises your losses. Entomb might be annoying as hell and sure, those are 20-odd zerglings that aren't in your army, but it's not the same kind of threat as a drop.
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On June 09 2012 14:03 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 13:58 ETisME wrote:On June 09 2012 13:52 -Exalt- wrote:On June 09 2012 13:45 oogieogie wrote:On June 09 2012 13:06 Plethora wrote:On June 09 2012 12:47 -Exalt- wrote:On June 09 2012 12:44 Plethora wrote:
Know what I'm deciding I dislike most about SC2 and all these new units are just hammering home? The lack of anything fun and microable...
I miss vultures, reaver & shuttle, muta micro, hell even marine vs lurker micro.
What are the most microable units in SC2?
Reaper (nerfed to the point of being irrelevent)
Banshees maybe? Blink Stalkers? Both have some fun micro tricks but nothing thats really going to make a crowd ooh and ahh. I think the coolest microing in SC2 is probably marine splitting vs banelings. That's one of the very few things you can watch a pro do and really just kinda marvel at sometimes. Aside from that, what is there? the oracle isn't micro-able and won't rely on multitasking/micro late game? oh, ok. what about a new mech TvP that will involve a lot of hellions that can be dropped / microd at protoss expansions, or mines that can be placed at mineral fields, etc. that isn't just as micro intensive as spam right-clicking a flock of mutas? ok. The kind of thing I'm talking about is a unit that, if microed well, can kill many times its cost in enemy units but if microed poorly will just die without doing much of anything. I never said anything about multi-tasking. I don't have that much of a problem with multi-tasking demands in SC2. Just take a vulture... a-move a vulture and it'll die to just about anything in the game. Do some top teir Korean micro with a vulture and it is capable of killing basically infinity zealots. What unit in SC2 can do that? stalker vs marine? his quote is "..still like brood war better.." so yeah.. gl arguing with a brick wall On June 09 2012 12:40 Nagano wrote:
Oracle entomb delays up to 31 seconds? Basically reducing income by 50% if cast once per minute? -.-
And abduct, don't have to say much about how this ability pretty much ruins any type of positional play. Especially when you combine it with Consume, you pretty much always have it up.
do people not realize that the mineral-block can easily be attacked/ destroyed?? IMO it's comparable to a weak unit drop in a mineral like, your probes lose mining time but you can deal with it easily if you have the apm. some speedlings will probably clean it up in seconds (assuming they didn't change the mechanic and they are still attackable). drops and harassment is more than just dealing damage, it is about controlling the opponent's army position as well That's the thing though, entombed doesn't do that. Depending how much hp they have, like 6 supply of zerglings is probably able to clean it up in about the amount of time you'd lose to an actual drop, but with zero losses on either side. So once there's a dozen lings at each mineral line, entombed requires zero reaction. In comparison, a drop always requires a reaction because you never quite know what's going to come out of it and always want to be sure you have overwhelming force to defend, because that minimises your losses. Entomb might be annoying as hell and sure, those are 20-odd zerglings that aren't in your army, but it's not the same kind of threat as a drop.
Entombed had 75 HP each in the Battle Report.
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Overall the game looks amazing. The Viper abduct ability, Burrow Charge and Tempest range will all get nerfed probably even before beta, Blizzard said they design new units to be on the overpowered side and then nerf them. The Terran units are a little disappointing in comparison to zerg and protoss but with so much balance still needed I'm sure it will be fine. Just wish the warhound wasn't an a move unit and had an anti air attack.
Also not sure what I think about the recall ability, and the fact that reaper speed doesn't require factory/ it can heal itself. I guess 14 gas 14 pool against terran will be standard in HoTS to get early lings and speed to deal with reapers. I'm excited that at least Terran gets an exciting microable unit even if it's not technically new.
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Canada11607 Posts
On June 09 2012 14:03 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 13:58 ETisME wrote:On June 09 2012 13:52 -Exalt- wrote:On June 09 2012 13:45 oogieogie wrote:On June 09 2012 13:06 Plethora wrote:On June 09 2012 12:47 -Exalt- wrote:On June 09 2012 12:44 Plethora wrote:
Know what I'm deciding I dislike most about SC2 and all these new units are just hammering home? The lack of anything fun and microable...
I miss vultures, reaver & shuttle, muta micro, hell even marine vs lurker micro.
What are the most microable units in SC2?
Reaper (nerfed to the point of being irrelevent)
Banshees maybe? Blink Stalkers? Both have some fun micro tricks but nothing thats really going to make a crowd ooh and ahh. I think the coolest microing in SC2 is probably marine splitting vs banelings. That's one of the very few things you can watch a pro do and really just kinda marvel at sometimes. Aside from that, what is there? the oracle isn't micro-able and won't rely on multitasking/micro late game? oh, ok. what about a new mech TvP that will involve a lot of hellions that can be dropped / microd at protoss expansions, or mines that can be placed at mineral fields, etc. that isn't just as micro intensive as spam right-clicking a flock of mutas? ok. The kind of thing I'm talking about is a unit that, if microed well, can kill many times its cost in enemy units but if microed poorly will just die without doing much of anything. I never said anything about multi-tasking. I don't have that much of a problem with multi-tasking demands in SC2. Just take a vulture... a-move a vulture and it'll die to just about anything in the game. Do some top teir Korean micro with a vulture and it is capable of killing basically infinity zealots. What unit in SC2 can do that? stalker vs marine? his quote is "..still like brood war better.." so yeah.. gl arguing with a brick wall On June 09 2012 12:40 Nagano wrote:
Oracle entomb delays up to 31 seconds? Basically reducing income by 50% if cast once per minute? -.-
And abduct, don't have to say much about how this ability pretty much ruins any type of positional play. Especially when you combine it with Consume, you pretty much always have it up.
do people not realize that the mineral-block can easily be attacked/ destroyed?? IMO it's comparable to a weak unit drop in a mineral like, your probes lose mining time but you can deal with it easily if you have the apm. some speedlings will probably clean it up in seconds (assuming they didn't change the mechanic and they are still attackable). drops and harassment is more than just dealing damage, it is about controlling the opponent's army position as well That's the thing though, entombed doesn't do that. Depending how much hp they have, like 6 supply of zerglings is probably able to clean it up in about the amount of time you'd lose to an actual drop, but with zero losses on either side. So once there's a dozen lings at each mineral line, entombed requires zero reaction. In comparison, a drop always requires a reaction because you never quite know what's going to come out of it and always want to be sure you have overwhelming force to defend, because that minimises your losses. Entomb might be annoying as hell and sure, those are 20-odd zerglings that aren't in your army, but it's not the same kind of threat as a drop.
Not only that, but if you get denied, you can just fly it back and use it to defend or else join the rest of your forces- high templar drops- destroy workers, but can also be used for army support or defence. Now the cloak ability might help a bit, but if it needs to be stationary... It's just a really niche unit. Perhaps too niche. It has 2-3 uses that Blizzard designed and that's it. Rather than be both unique and versatile.
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On June 09 2012 14:08 Solo Terran wrote:
Overall the game looks amazing. The Viper abduct ability, Burrow Charge and Tempest range will all get nerfed probably even before beta, Blizzard said they design new units to be on the overpowered side and then nerf them. The Terran units are a little disappointing in comparison to zerg and protoss but with so much balance still needed I'm sure it will be fine. Just wish the warhound wasn't an a move unit and had an anti air attack.
Also not sure what I think about the recall ability, and the fact that reaper speed doesn't require factory/ it can heal itself. I guess 14 gas 14 pool against terran will be standard in HoTS to get early lings and speed to deal with reapers. I'm excited that at least Terran gets an exciting microable unit even if it's not technically new.
Queens will still deal with Reapers with 6 range. 1 Rax FE seems to be dead in TvT though against stronger Reapers.
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On June 09 2012 14:10 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 14:08 Solo Terran wrote:
Overall the game looks amazing. The Viper abduct ability, Burrow Charge and Tempest range will all get nerfed probably even before beta, Blizzard said they design new units to be on the overpowered side and then nerf them. The Terran units are a little disappointing in comparison to zerg and protoss but with so much balance still needed I'm sure it will be fine. Just wish the warhound wasn't an a move unit and had an anti air attack.
Also not sure what I think about the recall ability, and the fact that reaper speed doesn't require factory/ it can heal itself. I guess 14 gas 14 pool against terran will be standard in HoTS to get early lings and speed to deal with reapers. I'm excited that at least Terran gets an exciting microable unit even if it's not technically new. Queens will still deal with Reapers with 6 range.
In the PvZ battle report, it only looked like they had 3 range unless I'm misjudging distance. Not sure if the change is reverted in HOTS, or maybe the latest patch changes has not been merged in yet.
Edit: Also, I think you mean 5 range.
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On June 09 2012 14:10 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 14:08 Solo Terran wrote:
Overall the game looks amazing. The Viper abduct ability, Burrow Charge and Tempest range will all get nerfed probably even before beta, Blizzard said they design new units to be on the overpowered side and then nerf them. The Terran units are a little disappointing in comparison to zerg and protoss but with so much balance still needed I'm sure it will be fine. Just wish the warhound wasn't an a move unit and had an anti air attack.
Also not sure what I think about the recall ability, and the fact that reaper speed doesn't require factory/ it can heal itself. I guess 14 gas 14 pool against terran will be standard in HoTS to get early lings and speed to deal with reapers. I'm excited that at least Terran gets an exciting microable unit even if it's not technically new. Queens will still deal with Reapers with 6 range. Thats why they have regen. The point isn't to kill the zerg, Queens should deal with Reapers reasonably. With reapers you just want to sniper a few drones and get out before losing a reaper, not clear the whole mineral line. And with speed before factory and regen that will be very viable.
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Looks amazing, but still kinda wish the new terran units were less a-movey. There really isn't anything interesting about the warhound if you ask me.
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On June 09 2012 14:15 Solo Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 14:10 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 14:08 Solo Terran wrote:
Overall the game looks amazing. The Viper abduct ability, Burrow Charge and Tempest range will all get nerfed probably even before beta, Blizzard said they design new units to be on the overpowered side and then nerf them. The Terran units are a little disappointing in comparison to zerg and protoss but with so much balance still needed I'm sure it will be fine. Just wish the warhound wasn't an a move unit and had an anti air attack.
Also not sure what I think about the recall ability, and the fact that reaper speed doesn't require factory/ it can heal itself. I guess 14 gas 14 pool against terran will be standard in HoTS to get early lings and speed to deal with reapers. I'm excited that at least Terran gets an exciting microable unit even if it's not technically new. Queens will still deal with Reapers with 6 range. Thats why they have regen. The point isn't to kill the zerg, Queens should deal with Reapers reasonably. With reapers you just want to sniper a few drones and get out before losing a reaper, not clear the whole mineral line. And with speed before factory and regen that will be very viable.
But it won't force Pool first builds . There's no way to deal damage that big to make the Zerg reconsider hatching first.
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EPT
