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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 07 2012 08:24 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 07:56 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 07:48 Bogeyman wrote:
Is there anywhere we can read about each game, and whether or not there have been sufficient information/explanations to support Spades' actions in the game? And of course I only mean stuff that looks really shady (such as the above mentioned movement on Entombed, but like I said: Spades' actually had information to support his decisions there) and not circumstantial stuff such as choice of build-orders. And I guess a list of when Spades actually looks at the fog of war during these games, because I know he does that at least a few times, and if it's directly connected to a unit command or not.
I've personally lost track of all the stuff people have posted recently, and I've probably missed several questions and replies to my previous posts. Here is the one I did on Game 1 of Theognis vs Spades in IPL5. Remember I asked if I could do it in your style? Don't know if you ever got to see it in the wall of posts that followed.... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=215#4295 And here are the counterarguments: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14960769http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14961549tl;dr, before moving the tanks an inch he moves his marines an inch. I am not saying the maphack version of events is incorrect or illogical but personally I find the 'intended only a slight reposition from the start' to be just as viable.
And I countered with: a reposition slightly to the left did nothing to help him reposition to start sieging the main, and was redundant to the position he already held, so the sudden siege makes a lot more sense if he in fact did have unseen vision of the army under fog because it happened at the EXACT moment needed to shell it in time. Strange coincidence at best. Isolated incident? Could be written off. Multiple incidents in the series? Multiple incidents over the BO7 series? All these strange coincidences from someone who isn't blessed with them in FP POV streamed games and clean ladder games? magical Flash game sense and an insane win ratio rank 1 GM spot from a guy whose observable FP POV gameplay and decision making would be rated mid masters (and was) by anyone well versed in distinguishing high level play?
I don't criticize if it's not enough for you. But it's too much for me.
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On June 07 2012 08:31 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 08:28 Cokefreak wrote:On June 07 2012 08:27 Starshaped wrote:
Nah, anyone half-decent at the game can tell the Cloud Kingdom moment is pure filthy hacking. How about giving some actual evidence or arguments, your post is just pointless slander. I've done that in several posts in this thread already. Just check my post history in this thread and you'll see.
Sorry I don't find that one 9:50 moment evidence enough to condemn him just yet, there have been good enough counter arguments for that certain point, not going to comment on rest of the evidence as I haven't reviewed most of it.
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On June 07 2012 08:31 psychotics wrote:
PS if you were hacking the that showmatch you are iether brilliant at hiding it or completely retarded seeing as u lost the series i mean honestly why even bother hacking just to lose, seriously people he is hacking and loses? give me a break.
Hacking could just mean the difference between getting 4-0'd or 4-1'd instead of 4-3 vs someone like LucifroN.
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On June 07 2012 08:21 dakalro wrote:
Soo, any actual evidence, other than "I think nobody would do that", "I believe no pro would do that"? I mean the pixels clicks one was nice but minimap to map mapping can't be uniform, for one it let's you inject so there's some intelligence in that translation.
At this point there's nothing he can do to prove he's innocent, there's no way all the people poking with their pitchforks now to be convinced that he did nothing wrong. So he can wait till it's forgotten or until someone bored enough gets a real idea an proves he did something impossible (not improbable, that's useless, playing Diablo III can show you the difference between those) therefore he did hack.
Till then it's fun watching the creature grow, evolve, change to feed more and more. Actual real life mob mentality without needing a visit to the hospital afterwards.
I believe nobody plays 14 games without selecting enemy units to check for health or upgrades. guess what? thats how he got caught cheating in BW. because he did shit nobody would do. So is pretty valid argument.
If you dont think is valid thinking then is fine with me, but you should tell out loud "i dakalro, believe he is innocent in BW and he is innocent in SC2" , then a lot of us wont be wasting our time responding to someone who thinks spades is still innocent in BW.
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I don't think Spades is posting any more in this thread.
He knows its over. He has realized that it is possible to find hard evidence. (Pathetically easily, actually. The differences between his no-hack play and hack play are astounding.)
Saying that he supports people who are honestly spending their time finding out if he is guilty or not, "no matter what the outcome", is basically a gg.
gg wp, you did well not being found out for so long.
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Regarding the Mini-map Grid Coordinates:
If someone can click on a coordinate via the minimap another person cannot, then I'm assuming there's a misunderstanding of how the grid actually works, and/or how hardware and software settings might affect which coordinates an individual can click - and in what intervals - compared to another. If it's a matter of pixels then a person's 1) Display resolution 2) mouse DPI 3) mouse acceleration (software+hardware) and 4) windows acceleration might come into play when clicking on the mini-map, though I could be gravely mistaken.
Here's one thing I do know: I play at 1080p on a 22-inch display at 1400 DPI, acceleration is disabled (via drivers; my sensor has 0 hardware acceleration), Windows acceleration is disabled via CPL mouse fix, angle snapping is disabled, and SC2's mouse sensitivity is disabled. With these settings my mouse cursor always moves in fixed grid-like intervals whereas a mouse with different settings might not, HOWEVER, I cannot reproduce mouse clicks anywhere that close together on the minimap while moving it.
Does this mean Spades can? Highly unlikely, but there's no way to tell unless we know his exact hardware and software settings so we can try for ourselves, or unless the person who designed the minimap gives their personal input.
note: this post isn't in Spade's defense, it's simply my input on what looks like a promising yet still misunderstood method for catching hackers.
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On June 07 2012 08:36 Antylamon wrote:
I don't think Spades is posting any more in this thread.
He knows its over. He has realized that it is possible to find hard evidence. (Pathetically easily, actually. The differences between his no-hack play and hack play are astounding.)
Saying that he supports people who are honestly spending their time finding out if he is guilty or not, "no matter what the outcome", is basically a gg.
gg wp, you did well not being found out for so long.
Actually he has said he is practicing and posted not too long ago.
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On June 07 2012 08:31 psychotics wrote:
Its a sad day for eSports fans around the world when post like this are allowed to be started. this is not the way to deal with this type of situtation. IF you suspect a player of map hacking or any other type of dishonest play (win trading or w/e) contact their team let their team investigate the matter privately. the team can the either a, clear him of the accusations without killing his reputation, or b release him from the team and release the information publicly only after he is found guilty. but instead someone who most likely does not have the credentials and knowledge to actually and accurately identify proper signs of hacking makes a post with his OPINIONS that Spades is hacking.
Their reputation won't be damaged if the claims are baseless. Public outings of hackers is the best way to deal with them, and it can act as a deterrent. If you want to feel safe about it, why not try to pick some random pro, pick some of his/her replays and make a thread about how he/she hacks. I can assure you this player's career won't be ruined for nothing and unless you have convincing evidence you'll be shut down pretty quickly.
I honestly at this point dont care if spades is or isnt it seems like half the pros are convinced he is and half convinced he isnt. In american law system to be guilty the accuser must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused is guilty, the fact that their are pros that are saying they dont see him hacking tells me that there isnt enough proof to prove spades guilty.
He is, in fact, guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt.
Shout out to spades on this one never really been a huge fan of yours but ill stand behind you on this one hope u show up to MLG and just blow the fucking pants off everyone and take the whole thing and ill be cheering for you the whole time. seriously disappointed in how the community has treated you with this matter hopefully you wont disappear and can show us some amazing games in the future
PS if you were hacking the that showmatch you are iether brilliant at hiding it or completely retarded seeing as u lost the series i mean honestly why even bother hacking just to lose, seriously people he is hacking and loses? give me a break.
Stop supporting a hacker. It comes as no surprise to me that this awful hacker lost to a legit pro despite hacking in a Bo7. Maphack doesn't magically make you better at the game.
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On June 07 2012 08:37 Ghostface_Killa wrote:
Regarding the Mini-map Grid Coordinates:
If someone can click on a coordinate via the minimap another person cannot, then I'm assuming there's a misunderstanding of how the grid actually works, and/or how hardware and software settings might affect which coordinates an individual can click, and in what intervals. If it's a matter of pixels then a person's 1) Display resolution 2) mouse DPI 3) mouse acceleration (software+hardware) and 4) windows acceleration might come into play when clicking on the mini-map, though I could be gravely mistaken.
Here's one thing I do know: I play at 1080p on a 22-inch display at 1400 DPI, acceleration is disabled (via drivers; my sensor has 0 hardware acceleration), Windows acceleration is disabled via CPL mouse fix, angle snapping is disabled, and SC2's mouse sensitivity is disabled. With these settings my mouse cursor always moves in fixed grid-like intervals whereas a mouse with different settings might not, HOWEVER, I cannot reproduce mouse clicks anywhere that close together on the minimap while moving it.
Does this mean Spades can? Highly unlikely, but there's no way to tell unless we know his exact hardware and software settings so we can try for ourselves, or unless the person who designed the minimap gives their personal input.
1920x1080 on 17.3" laptop screenn, 3500dpi, acceleration disabled, mouse speed 51%. I can click really close together. However this is probably a moot point because if it's possible... eh may as well give the benefit of the doubt. There's plenty of other evidence.
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On June 07 2012 08:16 EtherealDeath wrote:Alright, I just ran sc2 with the "popular maphack" to see how the camera lock works. This is a very popular hack, with a 61 page thread in its forums, and has been undetected since the first week of March 2012. This would be a likely maphack of choice, and appears to be the only publicly available maphack with internal hack features such as camera lock, blink hack, etc. Some people have suggested it was probably this hack. I fucking hope my bnet account doesn't get banned for this lol. Other than setting a hotkey for camera lock, the only other variable I found in the configuration file was ; Enable the use of middle mouse button for camera lock. ; 0 = Disable, 1 = Enable. ; 用鼠标中键锁定视角，０关闭，１开启 Mouse_Camera_Lock=0 If the mouse camear lock is set to 0, there is another setting which controls the hotkey for which keyboard button activates camera lock. By default this is F9. The Mouse Camera Lock button is the middle mouse button. Key note - it appears that camera lock has to be activated. There is no passive "avoid the fog of war" option.Run #1 - Mouse Camera Lock Activated- Without holding down mouse button, try to move vision around map. This shows up in replay, even in complete fog.
- Holding down mouse button, try to move vision around map. This does not show up in replay. However, my mouse is completely disabled during this - I have no mouse cursor. This means I cannot tell my scv to move to a location, etc. Also trying to build anything or hit a hotkey, even once, broke the camera lock, return vision to my screen previous to enabling camera lock.
Run #2 - Mouse Camera Lock Deactivated, not using Keyboard Camera Lock- Try to move around map with vision, including areas I have no vision of at all (i.e. computer's base at start of game). All of this shows up in replay. Does not try to stop me from watching over complete fog.
- Obvoiusly there is no way for me to activate camera lock like this
Run #3 - Mouse Camera Lock Deactivated, using Keyboard Camera Lock- Try to move around map with vision, including areas I have no vision of at all (i.e. computer's base at start of game). All of this shows up in replay. Does not try to stop me from watching over complete fog.
- Do the same, but now with camera lock enabled via pressing F9 once. This does not show up in replay. However, doing anything at all breaks camera lock. Trying to do a move command onto the screen jumped the screen back to where I was at previous to camera lock. Hitting a hotkey once broke camera lock without returning to my previous screen! My screen was now over the dark area. Spades cycled through hotkeys a lot during suspected camera locks. This should have placed his screen over the area he was looking at, but I did not notice this on Antiga.
My conclusion is that Spades either was not using this very popular maphack or he was not Camera Lock hacking. If you have any suggestions for further testing tell me and I'll try it out, but I now think that Spades did not utilise a camera hack, unless he's using some private one. Btw, it appears that the private version of the hack that person wrote basically is the same as the public version at the moment, due to lax policing by Blizzard, so the behavior is probably not different between the two with regards to this. In no way am I trying to make any statements concerning any other form of hacking. I am only saying that a camera lock hack appears to be less likely, or that he is using a less well known hackedit - A post did come up showing that he is friends with HRGZack, a known hacker, so perhaps he may have a different hack, who knows. edit2 - All tests were run on MLG Antiga Shipyard, if that even matters.
So the camera lock thing is down the drain  What theories are left? He made his own or has a private one with very different functioning?
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On June 07 2012 08:37 Ghostface_Killa wrote:
Regarding the Mini-map Grid Coordinates:
If someone can click on a coordinate via the minimap another person cannot, then I'm assuming there's a misunderstanding of how the grid actually works, and/or how hardware and software settings might affect which coordinates an individual can click, and in what intervals. If it's a matter of pixels then a person's 1) Display resolution 2) mouse DPI 3) mouse acceleration (software+hardware) and 4) windows acceleration might come into play when clicking on the mini-map, though I could be gravely mistaken.
Here's one thing I do know: I play at 1080p on a 22-inch display at 1400 DPI, acceleration is disabled (via drivers; my sensor has 0 hardware acceleration), Windows acceleration is disabled via CPL mouse fix, angle snapping is disabled, and SC2's mouse sensitivity is disabled. With these settings my mouse cursor always moves in fixed grid-like intervals whereas a mouse with different settings might not, HOWEVER, I cannot reproduce mouse clicks anywhere that close together on the minimap while moving it.
Does this mean Spades can? Highly unlikely, but there's no way to tell unless we know his exact hardware and software settings so we can try for ourselves, or unless the person who designed the minimap gives their personal input.
Others have already reproduced the Spades pixels from mini-map clicking.
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Why are people still trying to prove/disprove this? Any highish T player can tell that the type of play and responses in the OP is just unexplainable sans maphack at his level. The difference between the clean replays (with normal play) vs these replays are clear as day.
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On June 07 2012 08:38 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 08:36 Antylamon wrote:
I don't think Spades is posting any more in this thread.
He knows its over. He has realized that it is possible to find hard evidence. (Pathetically easily, actually. The differences between his no-hack play and hack play are astounding.)
Saying that he supports people who are honestly spending their time finding out if he is guilty or not, "no matter what the outcome", is basically a gg.
gg wp, you did well not being found out for so long. Actually he has said he is practicing and posted not too long ago.
Then my respect for him just dropped.
What is he practicing for? His inevitable defeat?
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On June 07 2012 08:16 EtherealDeath wrote:Alright, I just ran sc2 with the "popular maphack" to see how the camera lock works. This is a very popular hack, with a 61 page thread in its forums, and has been undetected since the first week of March 2012. This would be a likely maphack of choice, and appears to be the only publicly available maphack with internal hack features such as camera lock, blink hack, etc. Some people have suggested it was probably this hack. I fucking hope my bnet account doesn't get banned for this lol. Other than setting a hotkey for camera lock, the only other variable I found in the configuration file was ; Enable the use of middle mouse button for camera lock. ; 0 = Disable, 1 = Enable. ; 用鼠标中键锁定视角，０关闭，１开启 Mouse_Camera_Lock=0 If the mouse camear lock is set to 0, there is another setting which controls the hotkey for which keyboard button activates camera lock. By default this is F9. The Mouse Camera Lock button is the middle mouse button. Key note - it appears that camera lock has to be activated. There is no passive "avoid the fog of war" option.Run #1 - Mouse Camera Lock Activated- Without holding down mouse button, try to move vision around map. This shows up in replay, even in complete fog.
- Holding down mouse button, try to move vision around map. This does not show up in replay. However, my mouse is completely disabled during this - I have no mouse cursor. This means I cannot tell my scv to move to a location, etc. Also trying to build anything or hit a hotkey, even once, broke the camera lock, return vision to my screen previous to enabling camera lock.
Run #2 - Mouse Camera Lock Deactivated, not using Keyboard Camera Lock- Try to move around map with vision, including areas I have no vision of at all (i.e. computer's base at start of game). All of this shows up in replay. Does not try to stop me from watching over complete fog.
- Obvoiusly there is no way for me to activate camera lock like this
Run #3 - Mouse Camera Lock Deactivated, using Keyboard Camera Lock- Try to move around map with vision, including areas I have no vision of at all (i.e. computer's base at start of game). All of this shows up in replay. Does not try to stop me from watching over complete fog.
- Do the same, but now with camera lock enabled via pressing F9 once. This does not show up in replay. However, doing anything at all breaks camera lock. Trying to do a move command onto the screen jumped the screen back to where I was at previous to camera lock. Hitting a hotkey once broke camera lock without returning to my previous screen! My screen was now over the dark area. Spades cycled through hotkeys a lot during suspected camera locks. This should have placed his screen over the area he was looking at, but I did not notice this on Antiga.
My conclusion is that Spades either was not using this very popular maphack or he was not Camera Lock hacking. If you have any suggestions for further testing tell me and I'll try it out, but I now think that Spades did not utilise a camera hack, unless he's using some private one. Btw, it appears that the private version of the hack that person wrote basically is the same as the public version at the moment, due to lax policing by Blizzard, so the behavior is probably not different between the two with regards to this. In no way am I trying to make any statements concerning any other form of hacking. I am only saying that a camera lock hack appears to be less likely, or that he is using a less well known hackedit - A post did come up showing that he is friends with HRGZack, a known hacker, so perhaps he may have a different hack, who knows. edit2 - All tests were run on MLG Antiga Shipyard, if that even matters.
Seems like a useless hack if the keyboard lock doesn't return you to screen when e.g. using hotkeys.
Anyways, yeah it seems less likely that he used such functionality if he was hacking. He might have peeked over to the enemy base or an army position and then spammed his hotkeys as normal, returning him to the screen before using screen lock. That would only give him a split second to look at whatever he wanted to see, which should be enough of a complement if you also have production tabs and such available.
Does this seem reasonable given your experience with the hack?
Regardless it now seems of much smaller significance that the alleged screen locks are of a certain length (there was one for 9 or 11 seconds, but he was using hotkeys during), as the effective screen lock can't have been longer than until he used a hotkey or anything like that. Except of course if he used a different hack.
Maybe you should check out the games with Zack for reference?
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this whole mob mentality thing probably shouldn't have been let happen. this doesn't happen often so i don't blame TL for reopening this thread for discussion between players, but there should have been a much more strict way of handling this behind closed doors, a way that perhaps, could have helped damage control for spades, regardless of the fact of if he hacked or not.
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On June 07 2012 08:40 oxxo wrote:
Why are people still trying to prove/disprove this? Any highish T player can tell that the type of play and responses in the OP is just unexplainable sans maphack at his level. The difference between the clean replays (with normal play) vs these replays are clear as day.
The playstyle evidence is quite clear. The "nonsubjective" evidence, i.e. fingerprints that the hack leaves, or other stuff that doesn't need to be interpreted by humans, is not so clear and so far pretty much false. That's why I'm bothering to disprove the latter, since we should try to have only clean evidence. I mean we are putting a guy's career on the line after all, if you're willing to shit on it you'd better be willing to make sure only good evidence is let in.
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On June 07 2012 08:41 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 08:38 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 08:36 Antylamon wrote:
I don't think Spades is posting any more in this thread.
He knows its over. He has realized that it is possible to find hard evidence. (Pathetically easily, actually. The differences between his no-hack play and hack play are astounding.)
Saying that he supports people who are honestly spending their time finding out if he is guilty or not, "no matter what the outcome", is basically a gg.
gg wp, you did well not being found out for so long. Actually he has said he is practicing and posted not too long ago. Then my respect for him just dropped. What is he practicing for? His inevitable defeat?
uhh.. ok so what is he supposed to do at this point... not practice for MLG which he goes to in two days? Be reasonable.
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On June 07 2012 08:36 Antylamon wrote:
I don't think Spades is posting any more in this thread.
He knows its over. He has realized that it is possible to find hard evidence. (Pathetically easily, actually. The differences between his no-hack play and hack play are astounding.)
Saying that he supports people who are honestly spending their time finding out if he is guilty or not, "no matter what the outcome", is basically a gg.
gg wp, you did well not being found out for so long.
Or, simply because his career is so screwed by this thread that its pointless to even comment anymore. The damage has already been done. Even if he was found innocent, its not going to change anything at this point with the stain on his name. People would just keep on hounding him in the future on stupid shit that will screw potential sponsors and teams.
If he gets invited to a big name tournament and gets poor results, it'll just end up in controversy and people would be dumb and question the professionalism of say, NASL or MLG. Hell, in this case it could be just a simple case of nerves but it'll get blown out of stupid proportions anyways.
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On June 07 2012 08:39 Santiago4ever wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 08:37 Ghostface_Killa wrote:
Regarding the Mini-map Grid Coordinates:
If someone can click on a coordinate via the minimap another person cannot, then I'm assuming there's a misunderstanding of how the grid actually works, and/or how hardware and software settings might affect which coordinates an individual can click, and in what intervals. If it's a matter of pixels then a person's 1) Display resolution 2) mouse DPI 3) mouse acceleration (software+hardware) and 4) windows acceleration might come into play when clicking on the mini-map, though I could be gravely mistaken.
Here's one thing I do know: I play at 1080p on a 22-inch display at 1400 DPI, acceleration is disabled (via drivers; my sensor has 0 hardware acceleration), Windows acceleration is disabled via CPL mouse fix, angle snapping is disabled, and SC2's mouse sensitivity is disabled. With these settings my mouse cursor always moves in fixed grid-like intervals whereas a mouse with different settings might not, HOWEVER, I cannot reproduce mouse clicks anywhere that close together on the minimap while moving it.
Does this mean Spades can? Highly unlikely, but there's no way to tell unless we know his exact hardware and software settings so we can try for ourselves, or unless the person who designed the minimap gives their personal input.
Others have already reproduced the Spades pixels from mini-map clicking.
To clarify, I meant it's unlikely a person playing at 200 APM could actually click that precisely on the minimap time after time. Click on the minimap, hold your mouse down and drag and watch how out of control the minimap moves compared to screen bumping, and you'll see what I mean.
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On June 07 2012 08:40 oxxo wrote:
Why are people still trying to prove/disprove this? Any highish T player can tell that the type of play and responses in the OP is just unexplainable sans maphack at his level. The difference between the clean replays (with normal play) vs these replays are clear as day.
Most of what the OP said was proven to be way over exagerated or in many places to be simply wrong.
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EPT
