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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
If MLG wants to put on a good show, then just put Spades' first round game on the main stage!!!
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On June 07 2012 08:44 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 08:41 Antylamon wrote:On June 07 2012 08:38 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 08:36 Antylamon wrote:
I don't think Spades is posting any more in this thread.
He knows its over. He has realized that it is possible to find hard evidence. (Pathetically easily, actually. The differences between his no-hack play and hack play are astounding.)
Saying that he supports people who are honestly spending their time finding out if he is guilty or not, "no matter what the outcome", is basically a gg.
gg wp, you did well not being found out for so long. Actually he has said he is practicing and posted not too long ago. Then my respect for him just dropped. What is he practicing for? His inevitable defeat? uhh.. ok so what is he supposed to do at this point... not practice for MLG which he goes to in two days? Be reasonable.
Haha, I guess that was a 5 second thought.
You're right, nothing to do but make the best he can out of it.
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On June 07 2012 08:36 insanet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 08:21 dakalro wrote:
Soo, any actual evidence, other than "I think nobody would do that", "I believe no pro would do that"? I mean the pixels clicks one was nice but minimap to map mapping can't be uniform, for one it let's you inject so there's some intelligence in that translation.
At this point there's nothing he can do to prove he's innocent, there's no way all the people poking with their pitchforks now to be convinced that he did nothing wrong. So he can wait till it's forgotten or until someone bored enough gets a real idea an proves he did something impossible (not improbable, that's useless, playing Diablo III can show you the difference between those) therefore he did hack.
Till then it's fun watching the creature grow, evolve, change to feed more and more. Actual real life mob mentality without needing a visit to the hospital afterwards. I believe nobody plays 14 games without selecting enemy units to check for health or upgrades. guess what? thats how he got caught cheating in BW. because he did shit nobody would do. So is pretty valid argument. If you dont think is valid thinking then is fine with me, but you should tell out loud "i dakalro, believe he is innocent in BW and he is innocent in SC2" , then i wont be wasting my time responding to someone who thinks spades is still innocent in BW.
Ah, but the point is he didn't do something everyone else did before. Did anyone post some sort of statistics that action x that spades did was never done by anyone else, or in identical situations a and b, 100% of the players do x? No, just that they believe nobody else would do. As far as I know there was a decent amount of research in the BW case.
I don't really care about the outcome, he's screwed either way. Just that there's no actual evidence, no consensus between people that may be entitled to have a relevant gameplay opinion.
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Can someone post a VALID reason why he hacks ? At start i even suspected him even if i tried to defend him but now i just feel sorry for the guy.
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Okay, if that thing about the Camera Locking has been debunked, then it seems that all we really have to go on are nebulous things like his decision making. That's...honestly not very convincing.
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On June 07 2012 08:41 Bogeyman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 08:16 EtherealDeath wrote:Alright, I just ran sc2 with the "popular maphack" to see how the camera lock works. This is a very popular hack, with a 61 page thread in its forums, and has been undetected since the first week of March 2012. This would be a likely maphack of choice, and appears to be the only publicly available maphack with internal hack features such as camera lock, blink hack, etc. Some people have suggested it was probably this hack. I fucking hope my bnet account doesn't get banned for this lol. Other than setting a hotkey for camera lock, the only other variable I found in the configuration file was ; Enable the use of middle mouse button for camera lock. ; 0 = Disable, 1 = Enable. ; 用鼠标中键锁定视角，０关闭，１开启 Mouse_Camera_Lock=0 If the mouse camear lock is set to 0, there is another setting which controls the hotkey for which keyboard button activates camera lock. By default this is F9. The Mouse Camera Lock button is the middle mouse button. Key note - it appears that camera lock has to be activated. There is no passive "avoid the fog of war" option.Run #1 - Mouse Camera Lock Activated- Without holding down mouse button, try to move vision around map. This shows up in replay, even in complete fog.
- Holding down mouse button, try to move vision around map. This does not show up in replay. However, my mouse is completely disabled during this - I have no mouse cursor. This means I cannot tell my scv to move to a location, etc. Also trying to build anything or hit a hotkey, even once, broke the camera lock, return vision to my screen previous to enabling camera lock.
Run #2 - Mouse Camera Lock Deactivated, not using Keyboard Camera Lock- Try to move around map with vision, including areas I have no vision of at all (i.e. computer's base at start of game). All of this shows up in replay. Does not try to stop me from watching over complete fog.
- Obvoiusly there is no way for me to activate camera lock like this
Run #3 - Mouse Camera Lock Deactivated, using Keyboard Camera Lock- Try to move around map with vision, including areas I have no vision of at all (i.e. computer's base at start of game). All of this shows up in replay. Does not try to stop me from watching over complete fog.
- Do the same, but now with camera lock enabled via pressing F9 once. This does not show up in replay. However, doing anything at all breaks camera lock. Trying to do a move command onto the screen jumped the screen back to where I was at previous to camera lock. Hitting a hotkey once broke camera lock without returning to my previous screen! My screen was now over the dark area. Spades cycled through hotkeys a lot during suspected camera locks. This should have placed his screen over the area he was looking at, but I did not notice this on Antiga.
My conclusion is that Spades either was not using this very popular maphack or he was not Camera Lock hacking. If you have any suggestions for further testing tell me and I'll try it out, but I now think that Spades did not utilise a camera hack, unless he's using some private one. Btw, it appears that the private version of the hack that person wrote basically is the same as the public version at the moment, due to lax policing by Blizzard, so the behavior is probably not different between the two with regards to this. In no way am I trying to make any statements concerning any other form of hacking. I am only saying that a camera lock hack appears to be less likely, or that he is using a less well known hackedit - A post did come up showing that he is friends with HRGZack, a known hacker, so perhaps he may have a different hack, who knows. edit2 - All tests were run on MLG Antiga Shipyard, if that even matters. Seems like a useless hack if the keyboard lock doesn't return you to screen when e.g. using hotkeys. Anyways, yeah it seems less likely that he used such functionality if he was hacking. He might have peeked over to the enemy base or an army position and then spammed his hotkeys as normal, returning him to the screen before using screen lock. That would only give him a split second to look at whatever he wanted to see, which should be enough of a complement if you also have production tabs and such available. Does this seem reasonable given your experience with the hack? Regardless it now seems of much smaller significance that the alleged screen locks are of a certain length (there was one for 9 or 11 seconds, but he was using hotkeys during), as the effective screen lock can't have been longer than until he used a hotkey or anything like that. Except of course if he used a different hack. Maybe you should check out the games with Zack for reference?
It does return your screen if you double tap or build units. However with a single hotkey tap it did not return when using the kyeboard hotkey! Although it did return when using mouse hotkey, maybe a bug or oversight?
And I dunno man he was spamming really fast, like 4-5 times per second. That'd be a super fucking fast peek, and if he already has an observer tab hack, minimap hack, and maphack, which that hack has among other things, there's really no need if you think about it...
Yea I'll check out the Zack replays. When are the camera locks anyways, guess I'll find them.
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On June 07 2012 08:40 oxxo wrote:
Why are people still trying to prove/disprove this? Any highish T player can tell that the type of play and responses in the OP is just unexplainable sans maphack at his level. The difference between the clean replays (with normal play) vs these replays are clear as day.
Well, because if it's true it would end his SC2 career.
I would hope that heresay and expert 'analysis' (let's get real, there a difference between the opinions of pro's and an actual scientific/forensic analysis) should not be enough to end a person's career in this community.
Imagine if someone more important like Stephano or Idra were accused of hacking, and there was a fishy replay pack, and there were a large group of pro's that believed they were ... the community would, and should, demand undeniable evidence. Because the implications would be huge.
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On June 07 2012 08:44 Ghostface_Killa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 08:39 Santiago4ever wrote:On June 07 2012 08:37 Ghostface_Killa wrote:
Regarding the Mini-map Grid Coordinates:
If someone can click on a coordinate via the minimap another person cannot, then I'm assuming there's a misunderstanding of how the grid actually works, and/or how hardware and software settings might affect which coordinates an individual can click, and in what intervals. If it's a matter of pixels then a person's 1) Display resolution 2) mouse DPI 3) mouse acceleration (software+hardware) and 4) windows acceleration might come into play when clicking on the mini-map, though I could be gravely mistaken.
Here's one thing I do know: I play at 1080p on a 22-inch display at 1400 DPI, acceleration is disabled (via drivers; my sensor has 0 hardware acceleration), Windows acceleration is disabled via CPL mouse fix, angle snapping is disabled, and SC2's mouse sensitivity is disabled. With these settings my mouse cursor always moves in fixed grid-like intervals whereas a mouse with different settings might not, HOWEVER, I cannot reproduce mouse clicks anywhere that close together on the minimap while moving it.
Does this mean Spades can? Highly unlikely, but there's no way to tell unless we know his exact hardware and software settings so we can try for ourselves, or unless the person who designed the minimap gives their personal input.
Others have already reproduced the Spades pixels from mini-map clicking. To clarify, I meant it's unlikely a person playing at 200 APM could actually click that precisely on the minimap time after time. Click on the minimap, hold your mouse down and drag and watch how out of control the minimap moves compared to screen bumping, and you'll see what I mean.
I'm a 260 apm player and I'm quite confident I can do that in a normal game just by clicking a lot in a short period of time. But consistently ever time? Ehhh good point. I'd expect to fuck it up every now and then.
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On June 07 2012 08:45 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 08:40 oxxo wrote:
Why are people still trying to prove/disprove this? Any highish T player can tell that the type of play and responses in the OP is just unexplainable sans maphack at his level. The difference between the clean replays (with normal play) vs these replays are clear as day. Most of what the OP said was proven to be way over exagerated or in many places to be simply wrong.
The OP is not really relevant. I don't know why there isn't a mod link to the CatZ & Co analysis VOD. The arguments made their are 10x as strong as the OP and extremely convincing.
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On June 07 2012 08:53 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 08:45 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 08:40 oxxo wrote:
Why are people still trying to prove/disprove this? Any highish T player can tell that the type of play and responses in the OP is just unexplainable sans maphack at his level. The difference between the clean replays (with normal play) vs these replays are clear as day. Most of what the OP said was proven to be way over exagerated or in many places to be simply wrong. The OP is not really relevant. I don't know why there isn't a mod link to the CatZ & Co analysis VOD. The arguments made their are 10x as strong as the OP and extremely convincing.
Lots of his points are proven wrong too  Not sure what, other than possible gameplay style differences is left to say he cheated..
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On June 07 2012 08:53 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 08:45 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 08:40 oxxo wrote:
Why are people still trying to prove/disprove this? Any highish T player can tell that the type of play and responses in the OP is just unexplainable sans maphack at his level. The difference between the clean replays (with normal play) vs these replays are clear as day. Most of what the OP said was proven to be way over exagerated or in many places to be simply wrong. The OP is not really relevant. I don't know why there isn't a mod link to the CatZ & Co analysis VOD. The arguments made their are 10x as strong as the OP and extremely convincing.
http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912
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On June 07 2012 08:53 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 08:45 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 08:40 oxxo wrote:
Why are people still trying to prove/disprove this? Any highish T player can tell that the type of play and responses in the OP is just unexplainable sans maphack at his level. The difference between the clean replays (with normal play) vs these replays are clear as day. Most of what the OP said was proven to be way over exagerated or in many places to be simply wrong. The OP is not really relevant. I don't know why there isn't a mod link to the CatZ & Co analysis VOD. The arguments made their are 10x as strong as the OP and extremely convincing.
I would say because of the comment he makes here: http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912?t=1h7m50s
Paraphrase:
In-game Message: "What about Spades' side of the story?"
CatZ Voice: "Why would you want to hear his side?"
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On June 07 2012 08:51 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 08:41 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 08:16 EtherealDeath wrote:Alright, I just ran sc2 with the "popular maphack" to see how the camera lock works. This is a very popular hack, with a 61 page thread in its forums, and has been undetected since the first week of March 2012. This would be a likely maphack of choice, and appears to be the only publicly available maphack with internal hack features such as camera lock, blink hack, etc. Some people have suggested it was probably this hack. I fucking hope my bnet account doesn't get banned for this lol. Other than setting a hotkey for camera lock, the only other variable I found in the configuration file was ; Enable the use of middle mouse button for camera lock. ; 0 = Disable, 1 = Enable. ; 用鼠标中键锁定视角，０关闭，１开启 Mouse_Camera_Lock=0 If the mouse camear lock is set to 0, there is another setting which controls the hotkey for which keyboard button activates camera lock. By default this is F9. The Mouse Camera Lock button is the middle mouse button. Key note - it appears that camera lock has to be activated. There is no passive "avoid the fog of war" option.Run #1 - Mouse Camera Lock Activated- Without holding down mouse button, try to move vision around map. This shows up in replay, even in complete fog.
- Holding down mouse button, try to move vision around map. This does not show up in replay. However, my mouse is completely disabled during this - I have no mouse cursor. This means I cannot tell my scv to move to a location, etc. Also trying to build anything or hit a hotkey, even once, broke the camera lock, return vision to my screen previous to enabling camera lock.
Run #2 - Mouse Camera Lock Deactivated, not using Keyboard Camera Lock- Try to move around map with vision, including areas I have no vision of at all (i.e. computer's base at start of game). All of this shows up in replay. Does not try to stop me from watching over complete fog.
- Obvoiusly there is no way for me to activate camera lock like this
Run #3 - Mouse Camera Lock Deactivated, using Keyboard Camera Lock- Try to move around map with vision, including areas I have no vision of at all (i.e. computer's base at start of game). All of this shows up in replay. Does not try to stop me from watching over complete fog.
- Do the same, but now with camera lock enabled via pressing F9 once. This does not show up in replay. However, doing anything at all breaks camera lock. Trying to do a move command onto the screen jumped the screen back to where I was at previous to camera lock. Hitting a hotkey once broke camera lock without returning to my previous screen! My screen was now over the dark area. Spades cycled through hotkeys a lot during suspected camera locks. This should have placed his screen over the area he was looking at, but I did not notice this on Antiga.
My conclusion is that Spades either was not using this very popular maphack or he was not Camera Lock hacking. If you have any suggestions for further testing tell me and I'll try it out, but I now think that Spades did not utilise a camera hack, unless he's using some private one. Btw, it appears that the private version of the hack that person wrote basically is the same as the public version at the moment, due to lax policing by Blizzard, so the behavior is probably not different between the two with regards to this. In no way am I trying to make any statements concerning any other form of hacking. I am only saying that a camera lock hack appears to be less likely, or that he is using a less well known hackedit - A post did come up showing that he is friends with HRGZack, a known hacker, so perhaps he may have a different hack, who knows. edit2 - All tests were run on MLG Antiga Shipyard, if that even matters. Seems like a useless hack if the keyboard lock doesn't return you to screen when e.g. using hotkeys. Anyways, yeah it seems less likely that he used such functionality if he was hacking. He might have peeked over to the enemy base or an army position and then spammed his hotkeys as normal, returning him to the screen before using screen lock. That would only give him a split second to look at whatever he wanted to see, which should be enough of a complement if you also have production tabs and such available. Does this seem reasonable given your experience with the hack? Regardless it now seems of much smaller significance that the alleged screen locks are of a certain length (there was one for 9 or 11 seconds, but he was using hotkeys during), as the effective screen lock can't have been longer than until he used a hotkey or anything like that. Except of course if he used a different hack. Maybe you should check out the games with Zack for reference? It does return your screen if you double tap or build units. However with a single hotkey tap it did not return when using the kyeboard hotkey! Although it did return when using mouse hotkey, maybe a bug or oversight? And I dunno man he was spamming really fast, like 4-5 times per second. That'd be a super fucking fast peek, and if he already has an observer tab hack, minimap hack, and maphack, which that hack has among other things, there's really no need if you think about it... Yea I'll check out the Zack replays. When are the camera locks anyways, guess I'll find them.
I haven't checked them out, sorry. Good luck! And thanks for your work, even jeopardizing your bnet account. I'm sure you'll be fine though. ^^
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On June 07 2012 08:53 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 08:45 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 08:40 oxxo wrote:
Why are people still trying to prove/disprove this? Any highish T player can tell that the type of play and responses in the OP is just unexplainable sans maphack at his level. The difference between the clean replays (with normal play) vs these replays are clear as day. Most of what the OP said was proven to be way over exagerated or in many places to be simply wrong. The OP is not really relevant. I don't know why there isn't a mod link to the CatZ & Co analysis VOD. The arguments made their are 10x as strong as the OP and extremely convincing.
Yeah I find it really convincing too, but a lot of people are arguing that CatZ and co began their analysis (on stream) already under the impression that Spades hacked during those games, so their collective opinions are very biased
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These threads are breeding alot of paranoia. Twice this week ive been accused of maphacking and even harassed by raging players on ladder who get a drop intercepted or a pylon discovered.
Im not saying we shouldnt deal with it, but not EVERYONE is maphacking, and its not the end of the world.
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On June 07 2012 08:59 JerKy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 08:53 teamsolid wrote:On June 07 2012 08:45 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 08:40 oxxo wrote:
Why are people still trying to prove/disprove this? Any highish T player can tell that the type of play and responses in the OP is just unexplainable sans maphack at his level. The difference between the clean replays (with normal play) vs these replays are clear as day. Most of what the OP said was proven to be way over exagerated or in many places to be simply wrong. The OP is not really relevant. I don't know why there isn't a mod link to the CatZ & Co analysis VOD. The arguments made their are 10x as strong as the OP and extremely convincing. Yeah I find it really convincing too, but a lot of people are arguing that CatZ and co began their analysis (on stream) already under the impression that Spades hacked during those games, so their collective opinions are very biased
because they had already gone over the replays for 3 hours before the stream.
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im just gona sit here and laugh at everyone when spades is proven innocent jump on the band wagon hate train more please like spades said i could go download a few replays of any pro and find suspicious looking play and claim it hack hype it up post on a forum and get hundreds of people to follow the hate train till that players career is all but gone.
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On June 07 2012 08:50 Shiori wrote:
Okay, if that thing about the Camera Locking has been debunked, then it seems that all we really have to go on are nebulous things like his decision making. That's...honestly not very convincing.
What? Where was this debunked? I thought the only thing debunked was that minimap clicking vs conclusive proof of clicking on fog of war. Doesn't Camera Lock still happen with the hack? Like, isn't Camera Lock still a real effect of the hack?
On June 07 2012 09:03 psychotics wrote:
im just gona sit here and laugh at everyone when spades is proven innocent jump on the band wagon hate train more please like spades said i could go download a few replays of any pro and find suspicious looking play and claim it hack hype it up post on a forum and get hundreds of people to follow the hate train till that players career is all but gone.
So we've heard this claim made a lot. Go do it.
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On June 07 2012 08:57 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 08:53 teamsolid wrote:On June 07 2012 08:45 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 08:40 oxxo wrote:
Why are people still trying to prove/disprove this? Any highish T player can tell that the type of play and responses in the OP is just unexplainable sans maphack at his level. The difference between the clean replays (with normal play) vs these replays are clear as day. Most of what the OP said was proven to be way over exagerated or in many places to be simply wrong. The OP is not really relevant. I don't know why there isn't a mod link to the CatZ & Co analysis VOD. The arguments made their are 10x as strong as the OP and extremely convincing. Lots of his points are proven wrong too Not sure what, other than possible gameplay style differences is left to say he cheated..
The fact that TL mods have allowed his OP to go up in the first place, let alone unchanged despite having countless errors, is actually extremely irresponsible.
I used to think that TL was the best moderated site on the internet ... it probably still is. But man, the way they handled this situation only reminds me how incestuous and non-transparent the pro-community actually is.
The OP poster obviously has a unique, insider relationship with TL or the pro-community that would allow him to get away with such an inflammatory, anonymous post.
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On June 07 2012 09:03 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 08:50 Shiori wrote:
Okay, if that thing about the Camera Locking has been debunked, then it seems that all we really have to go on are nebulous things like his decision making. That's...honestly not very convincing. What? Where was this debunked? I thought the only thing debunked was that minimap clicking vs conclusive proof of clicking on fog of war. Doesn't Camera Lock still happen with the hack? Like, isn't Camera Lock still a real effect of the hack?
On the previous page there's a rather long post detailing some problems with the Camera Lock hypothesis from, and I can't stress this enough, actual experience with the hack.
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EPT
