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[?] Spades hacking? - Page 252

Forum Index > SC2 General
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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here

10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.

08:47 KST - Summary:
Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open.

Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims.

(also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here)
artanis2
Profile Joined April 2010
United States732 Posts
June 06 2012 20:25 GMT
#5021
This would be a lot easier to test with a custom mouse driver that clicked once per pixel in a specified grid range when you activated that feature.
EtherealDeath
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States8366 Posts
June 06 2012 20:25 GMT
#5022
On June 07 2012 05:21 Bellygareth wrote:
The method is still correct if you take into account the multiple clics as the original finder of the method did. I'm going to quote him : "Actually, if you look at the replay, you see two clicks that are .3 apart in the x direction. This should be impossible on the minimap."
He clicked 2 times very closely one to another in the fog of war. Until THAT is reproductible in the minimap, the method is correct.


On June 07 2012 04:59 EtherealDeath wrote:
Redone on Daybreak LE.

Replay File: http://drop.sc/192624
Resolution: 1920x1080

0:09 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.4,y=31.1
0:09 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.7,y=31.1

0:10 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.7,y=31.1
0:11 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.4,y=31.1
0:11 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.4,y=31.1
0:11 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.7,y=31.1
0:12 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.4,y=31.1
0:12 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.7,y=31.1

0:18 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=133.5,y=30.0
0:18 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=133.8,y=30.0

0:24 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.4,y=32.2
0:24 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.7,y=32.2
0:24 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.7,y=32.2
0:25 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.4,y=32.2

I'll try clicking that exact spot again but 0.3 appears to be as narrow as I can get it on Daybreak ;o. Happens to be exactly what was in Spade's replay though.


0.3 distance granularity on the x, y is unchanged.
MaK UK
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom47 Posts
June 06 2012 20:25 GMT
#5023
On June 07 2012 05:19 ch33psh33p wrote:

Show nested quote +
On June 07 2012 05:10 EtherealDeath wrote:
On June 07 2012 05:00 Shiori wrote:
Has anyone been able to get (117.9, 73.1)?


Here you go, on the second click on my first try to find the general area of the point I hit it.

http://drop.sc/192626

0:15 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=117.9,y=71.3
0:16 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=117.9,y=73.1


More people need to see this please.


You don't understand, its not a matter of being able to hit that point once, but consistently. When Spades is clicking in that specific area (the fog), the variance between clicks is about .3

Whereas if you try to do it on a mini map, the average variance is around 1.4.

As a redditor put it, 'His clicks were 0.3 units apart, and OP says his 1600x900 res monitor jumps 1.4 units, so Spades would need to have a monitor with like 7500x4200 for that kind of minimap precision.'
dani`
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands2402 Posts
June 06 2012 20:25 GMT
#5024
On June 07 2012 05:20 toiletCAT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 07 2012 05:18 revel8 wrote:
On June 07 2012 05:15 StarStrider wrote:
So what I'm gathering is that, while at first this method seemed to allow us to determine if he clicked with minimap, now it is being shown to be inconclusive?


No. I think it means that that particular click location was possible via the mini-map and not incriminating. I think the principle still stands that Spades may have made a click that is impossible via the mini-map. The trick is finding such an incriminating click.


I'm lost - what did he do that is impossible via the mini-map, again?

The idea is clicks on the minimap are transferred to the real map. However, because the minimap consists of much fewer pixels, your clicks can never be as accurate as on the real map.

So the thing people are thinking is; Spades was clicking on the real map through the fog of war, but his camera was locked so the only explanation (if he's NOT hacking) would be that he is using the minimap. So people want to find some location (x, y coordinate) that he clicked which is not possible using the minimap. If they can find it at a point his camera is somewhere else, it is proof he was in fact looking in the fog of war, clicking on the real map. But it's not easy to find such a click, apparently : )

Illustration below; clicks on a small square (minimap) are transferred to a big square. Obviously, the bigger squares have more pixels so you can click much more accurately on it.

[image loading]
Bellygareth
Profile Joined October 2010
France512 Posts
June 06 2012 20:25 GMT
#5025
On June 07 2012 05:24 recallsm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 07 2012 05:21 Bellygareth wrote:
The method is still correct if you take into account the multiple clics as the original finder of the method did. I'm going to quote him : "Actually, if you look at the replay, you see two clicks that are .3 apart in the x direction. This should be impossible on the minimap."
He clicked 2 times very closely one to another in the fog of war. Until THAT is reproductible in the minimap, the method is correct.


I'm pretty sure someone a couple of posts above did a 0.3 difference via clicking on the minimap on daybreak.


Dang sorry all those data confused me :S.

Well back to the drawing board
Kyrillion
Profile Joined August 2011
Russian Federation748 Posts
June 06 2012 20:25 GMT
#5026
On June 05 2012 12:21 teamsolid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 05 2012 12:19 Psychonian wrote:
....Guys? What would we do if it turned out there was a liquid' maphacker? I know it sounds horrible but....what would we do?

You do realize Hayder was a former maphacker right?

Cheating is really much more common than you'd think.


Unless what is written there is complete lie, Liquipedia begs to disagree.
If you seek well, you shall find.
EtherealDeath
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States8366 Posts
June 06 2012 20:26 GMT
#5027
On June 07 2012 05:25 artanis2 wrote:
This would be a lot easier to test with a custom mouse driver that clicked once per pixel in a specified grid range when you activated that feature.


Yea, although somehow I'm clicking to better than 1 pixel granularity lol /shrug
StarStrider
Profile Joined August 2011
United States689 Posts
June 06 2012 20:26 GMT
#5028
On June 07 2012 05:20 toiletCAT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 07 2012 05:18 revel8 wrote:
On June 07 2012 05:15 StarStrider wrote:
So what I'm gathering is that, while at first this method seemed to allow us to determine if he clicked with minimap, now it is being shown to be inconclusive?


No. I think it means that that particular click location was possible via the mini-map and not incriminating. I think the principle still stands that Spades may have made a click that is impossible via the mini-map. The trick is finding such an incriminating click.


I'm lost - what did he do that is impossible via the mini-map, again?


Nothing has been shown to be conclusive yet. The method didn't really pan out as it was theorized it would.
Spontaneous Pneumothorax sucks, please keep MVP sC in your thoughts. sC fighting! 힘내세요
toiletCAT
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
Qatar284 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-06 20:28:13
June 06 2012 20:26 GMT
#5029
On June 07 2012 05:22 artanis2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 07 2012 05:20 toiletCAT wrote:
On June 07 2012 05:18 revel8 wrote:
On June 07 2012 05:15 StarStrider wrote:
So what I'm gathering is that, while at first this method seemed to allow us to determine if he clicked with minimap, now it is being shown to be inconclusive?


No. I think it means that that particular click location was possible via the mini-map and not incriminating. I think the principle still stands that Spades may have made a click that is impossible via the mini-map. The trick is finding such an incriminating click.


I'm lost - what did he do that is impossible via the mini-map, again?


The idea was that some of his clicks made "via minimap" or "during camera lock" were too close together to have been made by clicking on the minimap. As if he were actually clicking on the terrain. It has been debunked so far, but there might be another way to analyze it.


But you cannot do anything during Camera Lock, it prevents the user from doing anything apart from moving around with his or her screen.

+ Show Spoiler +
If that's your point, then I'm still missing something, haha.


Wait, are we talking about the Camera Lock included in the hack, or in the Replay Menu?
dani`
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands2402 Posts
June 06 2012 20:27 GMT
#5030
On June 07 2012 05:25 Kyrillion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 05 2012 12:21 teamsolid wrote:
On June 05 2012 12:19 Psychonian wrote:
....Guys? What would we do if it turned out there was a liquid' maphacker? I know it sounds horrible but....what would we do?

You do realize Hayder was a former maphacker right?

Cheating is really much more common than you'd think.


Unless what is written there is complete lie, Liquipedia begs to disagree.

Check his BW Liquipedia: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/HayprO


Was caught using Oblivion hack in the spring 2008. Claimed it was unintentional but was kicked out of the Swedish National team and ToT for a year before he got back into both.
phatz
Profile Joined November 2011
Norway17 Posts
June 06 2012 20:27 GMT
#5031
You guys realize you cannot perform any action while under cameralock, right?
artanis2
Profile Joined April 2010
United States732 Posts
June 06 2012 20:28 GMT
#5032
On June 07 2012 05:25 MaK UK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 07 2012 05:19 ch33psh33p wrote:

On June 07 2012 05:10 EtherealDeath wrote:
On June 07 2012 05:00 Shiori wrote:
Has anyone been able to get (117.9, 73.1)?


Here you go, on the second click on my first try to find the general area of the point I hit it.

http://drop.sc/192626

0:15 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=117.9,y=71.3
0:16 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=117.9,y=73.1


More people need to see this please.


You don't understand, its not a matter of being able to hit that point once, but consistently. When Spades is clicking in that specific area (the fog), the variance between clicks is about .3

Whereas if you try to do it on a mini map, the average variance is around 1.4.

As a redditor put it, 'His clicks were 0.3 units apart, and OP says his 1600x900 res monitor jumps 1.4 units, so Spades would need to have a monitor with like 7500x4200 for that kind of minimap precision.'


Yes, but this has been debunked. Myself and others were able to achieve results 0.3 apart via the minimap, but it was odd. The x axis grid increases by the following sequence. 0.3 0.3 0.3 1.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 1.3 according to the data pulled out of my replay here:

On June 07 2012 04:57 artanis2 wrote:
Here is my test on daybreak: http://drop.sc/192623
Here are the results sorted by x coord: http://pastebin.com/eiZT5uRP

I was able to hit the x coordinates: 117.3 117.6 117.9, etc. and on the 117.9 x-axis:

117.9 71.2
117.9 71.8
117.9 72.5
117.9 73.0
117.9 73.6

Bellygareth
Profile Joined October 2010
France512 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-06 20:30:04
June 06 2012 20:29 GMT
#5033
Can't you actually see if he selects enemy units in the fog of war? Is that event registered?

Edit : just saw that camera lock prevented actions. Is selecting even possible?
StarStrider
Profile Joined August 2011
United States689 Posts
June 06 2012 20:31 GMT
#5034
On June 07 2012 05:26 toiletCAT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 07 2012 05:22 artanis2 wrote:
On June 07 2012 05:20 toiletCAT wrote:
On June 07 2012 05:18 revel8 wrote:
On June 07 2012 05:15 StarStrider wrote:
So what I'm gathering is that, while at first this method seemed to allow us to determine if he clicked with minimap, now it is being shown to be inconclusive?


No. I think it means that that particular click location was possible via the mini-map and not incriminating. I think the principle still stands that Spades may have made a click that is impossible via the mini-map. The trick is finding such an incriminating click.


I'm lost - what did he do that is impossible via the mini-map, again?


The idea was that some of his clicks made "via minimap" or "during camera lock" were too close together to have been made by clicking on the minimap. As if he were actually clicking on the terrain. It has been debunked so far, but there might be another way to analyze it.


But you cannot do anything during Camera Lock, it prevents the user from doing anything apart from moving around with his or her screen.

+ Show Spoiler +
If that's your point, then I'm still missing something, haha.


Wait, are we talking about the Camera Lock included in the hack, or in the Replay Menu?


As I understand it the camera lock simply locks your view in place. You can still do everything you can do normally, however your screen won't show you looking around on the replay, and doesn't snap to what you are really looking at until you look at something you have vision of, or override the lock by making a command (right click, build cmd, etc)
Spontaneous Pneumothorax sucks, please keep MVP sC in your thoughts. sC fighting! 힘내세요
dani`
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands2402 Posts
June 06 2012 20:31 GMT
#5035
On June 07 2012 05:27 phatz wrote:
You guys realize you cannot perform any action while under cameralock, right?

Totally forgot about it. Is it confirmed true with every cameralock? Cause then obviously we can stop this pixel finding campaign.
jmbthirteen
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States10734 Posts
June 06 2012 20:31 GMT
#5036
On June 07 2012 05:26 toiletCAT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 07 2012 05:22 artanis2 wrote:
On June 07 2012 05:20 toiletCAT wrote:
On June 07 2012 05:18 revel8 wrote:
On June 07 2012 05:15 StarStrider wrote:
So what I'm gathering is that, while at first this method seemed to allow us to determine if he clicked with minimap, now it is being shown to be inconclusive?


No. I think it means that that particular click location was possible via the mini-map and not incriminating. I think the principle still stands that Spades may have made a click that is impossible via the mini-map. The trick is finding such an incriminating click.


I'm lost - what did he do that is impossible via the mini-map, again?


The idea was that some of his clicks made "via minimap" or "during camera lock" were too close together to have been made by clicking on the minimap. As if he were actually clicking on the terrain. It has been debunked so far, but there might be another way to analyze it.


But you cannot do anything during Camera Lock, it prevents the user from doing anything apart from moving around with his or her screen.

+ Show Spoiler +
If that's your point, then I'm still missing something, haha.


Wait, are we talking about the Camera Lock included in the hack, or in the Replay Menu?

The only way to prove he wasn't using Camera Lock would be him using the minimap. If they prove the clicks aren't valid via the minimap, it proves he is using Camera Lock.

Quite frankly its pointless imo. Why would Spades play via the minimap in his showmatch vs Lucifron but in practice and on stream, he always goes through the Fog of War? Doesn't make sense, unless he was using Camera Lock to hide him looking into Fog of War because he is maphacking.
www.superbeerbrothers.com
toiletCAT
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
Qatar284 Posts
June 06 2012 20:32 GMT
#5037
On June 07 2012 05:29 Bellygareth wrote:
Can't you actually see if he selects enemy units in the fog of war? Is that event registered?

Edit : just saw that camera lock prevented actions. Is selecting even possible?


Not during Camera Lock -- if we're talking about the Camera Lock incl. in the hack -- it basically works like this; you hold Middle Mouse Button and you move your screen around to look at your opponents stuff. If you then watch a replay, it won't show you moving around your camera, because it will be locked to the position where you hit your Middle Mouse Button.
artanis2
Profile Joined April 2010
United States732 Posts
June 06 2012 20:32 GMT
#5038
On June 07 2012 05:29 Bellygareth wrote:
Can't you actually see if he selects enemy units in the fog of war? Is that event registered?

Edit : just saw that camera lock prevented actions. Is selecting even possible?


The known hack that most of spades' defenders refer to does not allow selection while camera locked, and may disable the camera lock automatically when an action is performed. The likelyhood of a pro player using the commonly available noob hack is very very unlikely though. People need to stop referring to it like it is the only hack available. Private hacks are common among pro gaming communities.
navy
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada197 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-06 20:46:38
June 06 2012 20:33 GMT
#5039
On June 07 2012 05:19 ch33psh33p wrote:

Show nested quote +
On June 07 2012 05:10 EtherealDeath wrote:
On June 07 2012 05:00 Shiori wrote:
Has anyone been able to get (117.9, 73.1)?


Here you go, on the second click on my first try to find the general area of the point I hit it.

http://drop.sc/192626

0:15 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=117.9,y=71.3
0:16 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=117.9,y=73.1


More people need to see this please.


NVM
mrk1
Profile Joined January 2011
91 Posts
June 06 2012 20:33 GMT
#5040
On June 07 2012 05:31 dani` wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 07 2012 05:27 phatz wrote:
You guys realize you cannot perform any action while under cameralock, right?

Totally forgot about it. Is it confirmed true with every cameralock? Cause then obviously we can stop this pixel finding campaign.

No, this is not confirmed. Someone posted a link to hacking forum where they said different hacks have different camera locks - some allow some don't.
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