[?] Spades hacking? - Page 249

07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here

10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.

08:47 KST - Summary:
Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open.

Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims.

(also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here)

IvanGT

Iceland15 Posts

June 06 2012 19:52 GMT

#4961

lol didnt see any cheat there

caradoc

Canada3022 Posts

June 06 2012 19:52 GMT

#4962

On June 07 2012 04:47 EtherealDeath wrote:

Show nested quote +

Done at 1920x1080
Replay file: http://drop.sc/192619
Apparently I'm a boss at minimap clicking, even saw one that was just 0.2 apart on the x, with the same y.

0:10 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=133.2,y=108.2
0:10 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=133.8,y=108.2

0:11 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=135.3,y=107.7
0:11 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=135.6,y=107.7

0:13 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=135.6,y=107.7
0:14 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=135.3,y=107.7

0:15 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=135.3,y=107.7
0:16 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=135.6,y=107.2
0:16 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=135.8,y=107.2

Can you use the same map? antiga is a square. this makes a really really big difference.

REALLY GOTTA GO NOW. late for meeting.

Deleted User 137586

7859 Posts

June 06 2012 19:52 GMT

#4963

I'm confused now. How could these results come out different?

On June 07 2012 04:47 recallsm wrote:
I used a macro that clicked with exactly 1 pixel difference each time. tried both up-down and left-right. each time was consistent. My resolution is 1280 x 768

[image loading]

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[image loading]

On June 07 2012 04:47 EtherealDeath wrote:

Show nested quote +

StarStrider

United States689 Posts

June 06 2012 19:52 GMT

#4964

So this is this the basic idea that is being put forward am I right?

[image loading]

And so Spades' clicks should appear in the red scale since he is actually looking onscreen and not on black scale since he is supposedly not actually clicking minimap?

EtherealDeath

United States8366 Posts

June 06 2012 19:53 GMT

#4965

On June 07 2012 04:50 desuduesdeus wrote:
we shouldn't focus on one point on the grid, there's too many variables or there could be small inconsistencies in the replay files if you're talking about super detailed coordinates.

maybe look at the distances between spam clicks that Spades claims he did on the mini map and compare to what's the minimum distance between clicks on the mini map (1 pixel threshold).

Yo I think I just demonstrated that the minimum distance is quite probably 0.1, since I achieved both a 0.2 and a 0.3 difference on the x, without changing the y.

Tewks44

United States2032 Posts

June 06 2012 19:53 GMT

#4966

On June 07 2012 04:52 StarStrider wrote:
EDIT: fixing

Yeah, the idea is if Spades is hacking, his clicks on the map will achieve a higher level of precision as is possible by clicking on the mini-map. However, upon further testing we are finding that mini-map clicks are not as consistent as previously assumed.

EtherealDeath

United States8366 Posts

June 06 2012 19:55 GMT

#4967

On June 07 2012 04:52 caradoc wrote:

Show nested quote +

Can you use the same map? antiga is a square. this makes a really really big difference.

REALLY GOTTA GO NOW. late for meeting.

Oops I thought this was the antiga game, brb on daybreak

recallsm

14 Posts

June 06 2012 19:55 GMT

#4968

On June 07 2012 04:52 Ghanburighan wrote:
I'm confused now. How could these results come out different?

Show nested quote +

It shows that probably both map and screen resolution affects precision. I could never hit a 0.2 difference off 1 axis ever @ 1280 x 768 since my smallest permissible move (1px) resulted in a 0.5 difference on the y-axis.

Plansix

United States60190 Posts

June 06 2012 19:56 GMT

#4969

On June 07 2012 04:23 toiletCAT wrote:

Show nested quote +

On June 07 2012 04:13 Plansix wrote:

On June 07 2012 04:01 toiletCAT wrote:

On June 07 2012 03:54 JustTray wrote:

On June 07 2012 03:50 toiletCAT wrote:

On June 07 2012 03:46 hinnolinn wrote:

On June 07 2012 03:44 Benjamin99 wrote:

On June 07 2012 03:37 Chilling5pr33 wrote:

On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote:
That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!

Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life.
Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)

This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough.

So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever

True, but at least to those of us that aren't coming into this assuming Spades is guilty, there is plenty of reasonable doubt here, and I like to at least believe I'm a reasonable person.

As I've said a ton of times already, yes, a lot of doubt, a lot of suspicion, but no proof.

Please stop using the term "proof" when none is needed. Your entire premise is false, therefore everything you say based on that premise is without merit. Yet you keep parroting it like eventually it'll be true. Read the posts on this page about standard of proof and please stop posting afterwards.

Listen boy, I'm as much part of this community as you are, and if I say I want proof before I can stand by and watch you judge another player by his actions, then I want it. There's no question about that in a million years, and I hope you're bright enough to realize that my presupposition does not have to mirror yours. Stop being a fucking strawman and understand that if you want to tell me that my premise is wrong, you better fucking tell me why, as well.

If you want to be part of this community, you shouldn't call people "boy". It is poor form and rude. And there is a overwhelming evidence that something fishy was going on in many of Spades games. There is plenty to look at and you can go back any review the thread if you want to form your theory on the matter.

And proof is a subjective word and one that is not used often in law. Proving something requires a standard of evidence that is accepted, with rules. What you are demanding is someone provide you with a "smoking gun" that Spades is a hacker. However, law rarely works that way and if there were a legal action, we would not be required to provide a "smoking gun". In fact, if someone were to bring a legal action to prevent Spades from entering a touranment, they would not be required to prove he was a hacker "beyond a reasonable doubt". They would only need to prove that he was most likely hacking, or show a "preponderance of evidence", since it would be a civil action.

I feel there is a preponderance of evidence that Spades in hacking. It is more likley than not.

Sorry, but I get aggravated and I sometimes use the word "boy" when I take a lot of hits, especially when I say what I have to say and I share my opinion with others, only to be addressed in a vulgar manner, because they do not agree. I find this immature and frustrating, thank you.

Oh, and for your "proof is a subjective word", and all that good stuff. Here's a thread with another hacker, in which the opening post contains definitive proof for what he's done. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342704 Yep, not so subjective when your Stalkers start dancing Tango on their own, is it?

All evidence is subjective in varying levels. You will not get such strong evidence from anyone who is good at using hacks. They are designed mask and hide their use in replays. If a player is smart, there will never be this sort of "smoking gun" in any replay. This is their intent and what makes it hard to detect them. If you demend that level off proof in every case, it will be difficult, if not impossible, to root out the cheaters. We have to rely on expert opinions and other, smaller peices of evidence to clue us into when a player is cheating.

Tewks44

United States2032 Posts

June 06 2012 19:56 GMT

#4970

Something I just thought of...

Is it possible to issue an attack command on a specific unit via the mini-map?

If it is not, then perhaps we could look for instances when Spades issues an attack command on a specific unit or a move command on a specific unit.

Just throwing the idea out there, I'll start looking myself but I don't believe I've noticed anything like that yet.

desuduesdeus

Germany18 Posts

June 06 2012 19:56 GMT

#4971

On June 07 2012 04:53 EtherealDeath wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yo I think I just demonstrated that the minimum distance is quite probably 0.1, since I achieved both a 0.2 and a 0.3 difference on the x, without changing the y.

that's what, like a scv size on the normal map? sorry, not familiar with the grid size at all. if so, that's bad news for this method.

artanis2

United States732 Posts

June 06 2012 19:57 GMT

#4972

Here is my test on daybreak: http://drop.sc/192623
Here are the results sorted by x coord: http://pastebin.com/eiZT5uRP

I was able to hit the x coordinates: 117.3 117.6 117.9, etc. and on the 117.9 x-axis:

117.9 71.2
117.9 71.8
117.9 72.5
117.9 73.0
117.9 73.6

netherh

United Kingdom333 Posts

June 06 2012 19:58 GMT

#4973

On June 07 2012 04:48 Tewks44 wrote:

Show nested quote +

I wish we had conclusive proof as much as anybody so we could end this saga, but sadly, this is evidence that the mini-map clicks are not conclusive.

I don't think so. The y clicks are all .5 apart, and the x clicks are all approximately .3 apart. It may simply be rounding to 1 decimal place (i.e. the real value is .27 or something).

artanis2

United States732 Posts

June 06 2012 19:58 GMT

#4974

Oddly enough the next x coord above 117.9 was 119.2.

Marradron

Netherlands1586 Posts

June 06 2012 19:59 GMT

#4975

On June 07 2012 04:58 artanis2 wrote:
Oddly enough the next x coord above 117.9 was 119.2.

Is there something blocking movement between 117.9 and 119.2 ? As in some doodad on the map or a wall

EtherealDeath

United States8366 Posts

June 06 2012 19:59 GMT

#4976

Redone on Daybreak LE.

Replay File: http://drop.sc/192624
Resolution: 1920x1080

0:09 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.4,y=31.1
0:09 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.7,y=31.1

0:10 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.7,y=31.1
0:11 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.4,y=31.1
0:11 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.4,y=31.1
0:11 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.7,y=31.1
0:12 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.4,y=31.1
0:12 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.7,y=31.1

0:18 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=133.5,y=30.0
0:18 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=133.8,y=30.0

0:24 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.4,y=32.2
0:24 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.7,y=32.2
0:24 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.7,y=32.2
0:25 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.4,y=32.2

I'll try clicking that exact spot again but 0.3 appears to be as narrow as I can get it on Daybreak ;o. Happens to be exactly what was in Spade's replay though.

Shiori

3815 Posts

June 06 2012 20:00 GMT

#4977

Has anyone been able to get (117.9, 73.1)?

EtherealDeath

United States8366 Posts

June 06 2012 20:04 GMT

#4978

Btw I'm clicking now in the area of his front 3rd and I am getting a granularity of exactly 0.3 (minimap clicking)

Roxor9999

Netherlands771 Posts

June 06 2012 20:04 GMT

#4979

Even though this nothing has been proved by this new method. I'm fucking impressed by this community and proud to be part of it. Keep up the good work!

EtherealDeath

United States8366 Posts

June 06 2012 20:04 GMT

#4980

On June 07 2012 05:00 Shiori wrote:
Has anyone been able to get (117.9, 73.1)?

Where exactly is that point can you upload a pic ~_~

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