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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here 10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here. 08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) | ||
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Hollow27
United States111 Posts
On June 07 2012 04:37 Ghanburighan wrote: Isn't it relevant that the y axis is off by 2? Maybe. It might be better for this specific case to work out whether Spade's clicks were possible or not, rather than try to work out the general rules behind minimap clicks. | ||
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tonycheese
9 Posts
On June 07 2012 04:35 artanis2 wrote: Sorry guys, this method does not work. ![[image loading]](http://gyazo.com/96dbbf0e250e8abbb7e21527c109bfc2.png) How did you produce these coordinates? Did you just click the same spot on the minimap? My clicks were consistent even when I left the spot and came back so I'm a bit confused. If you came back to the same spot was it consistent? Are they different heights? | ||
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Santiago4ever
Sweden299 Posts
On June 07 2012 04:36 h41fgod wrote: Yes, totally agree, the defense really has gone out of their way too. Its not like he wasnt given "fair trial", everything that has been debunked is just harped on by people who have not read the entire thread. Others have been finding more proof all the time. It's always better to push for a method of detecting cheats for certain. If certainty can be assured to the same agree as with the oblivion-hack in BW then we will know who cheats or not and avoid the risk of screwing over non-cheaters. The more we fight against circumstantial evidence the more people will strive to find a real method of detection. | ||
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caradoc
Canada3022 Posts
On June 07 2012 04:35 artanis2 wrote: Sorry guys, this method does not work. 1) are you using the same map? 2) what resolution is your screen set to? 3) are you clicking the minimap? I can't imagine it not working since your minimap is static. It's also relevant that your y axis is off as well. We don't know the sc2 minimap-map mapping algorithm yet, so the fact that it's different y coords could be very relevant (minimap is a square, game area is not a square, therefore the mapping algorithm isn't a simple scalar zoom onto a square grid, and it may not even be a 2d zoom with independent values for x/y onto a stretched square grid). It would be relevant counterevidence if you could reproduce a click .2 x units off with the same y coordinates on the same map at a reasonable resolution. Also, given conventional assumptions, in order for the click to be .3 units off, you'd need an resolution of at least 7466x4199 (or whatever) EDIT: really have to go now. | ||
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artanis2
United States732 Posts
On June 07 2012 04:39 tonycheese wrote: How did you produce these coordinates? Did you just click the same spot on the minimap? My clicks were consistent even when I left the spot and came back so I'm a bit confused. If you came back to the same spot was it consistent? Are they different heights? I was clicking all over with the intent of generating x or y axis coords that were within one unit of each other. Not sure about the height, this was done on Agria Valley. Both of those clicks should be inside the top start base. | ||
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jacksonlee
175 Posts
On June 07 2012 04:41 artanis2 wrote: I was clicking all over with the intent of generating x or y axis coords that were within one unit of each other. Not sure about the height, this was done on Agria Valley. Both of those clicks should be inside the top start base. You should try the same map as tonycheese Edit: and the same location for that matter | ||
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quarkle
United Kingdom92 Posts
On June 07 2012 04:32 Bashion wrote: I think when WW parted ways with Spades, it made very clear they didnt believe him. I mean, if any other pro, like an EG or TL player, for example, was accused of maphacking, and we didnt have an 100% solid proof, i bet his team would defend and stick to him. WW did the opposite. Yeah a bit like that. Not sure how other teams would handle it to be honest especially since good sponsors (paymasters) are very rare. Sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and sacrifices have to be made. I just got the feeling that Spades himself didn't believe in the cause let alone his team. | ||
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TMOUllrich
England59 Posts
On June 07 2012 04:41 artanis2 wrote: I was clicking all over with the intent of generating x or y axis coords that were within one unit of each other. Not sure about the height, this was done on Agria Valley. Both of those clicks should be inside the top start base. Perhaps we should stick to the same map that spades and lucifron played on and that tony did his analysis for, which was Daybreak. Also the point was x=117.9, y=73.1. We should recreate the same situation and not similar ones. E: Agria valley is a much smaller map than daybreak (especially in the x-axis) so in comparison the ratio of minimapsize:mapsize will be higher for agria valley than daybreak, hence 0.2 could be perfectly possible. | ||
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Marradron
Netherlands1586 Posts
On June 07 2012 04:41 artanis2 wrote: I was clicking all over with the intent of generating x or y axis coords that were within one unit of each other. Not sure about the height, this was done on Agria Valley. Both of those clicks should be inside the top start base. I wonder if the minimap detects unwalkable terrain / minerals. Could it alter the click coordinates if they are not valid ? | ||
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ElPeque.fogata
Uruguay462 Posts
Now any replay analisis tool could be tweaked to automatically search for these click/camblock/grid anomalies. The thing is... Now that hackers know this, if they abstain from clicking while watching over the fow this method will not suffice. And there are other several advantages just by having full vision in the minimap, like say... in a z v z, you can tell from just the minimap wether the opponent has already made a pool or expanding. Or later detecting drops, runbys, etc. I think this is a lost battle  . Just like piracy and drm, etc. | ||
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Polygamy
Austria1114 Posts
"It's really amazing how much the community puts up with. If half of this was directed at ACTIVISION BLIZZARD, they might actually care, but go ahead, use this one guy to release your anger." | ||
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Tewks44
United States2032 Posts
I feel like a way to resolve this is to compare Spades click patterns when he was supposedly using the mini-map and compare it with a TL member's click patters in a similar location while also using the mini map. If the trends in coordinates are similar then we need to assume this is not conclusive. However, if the trends are noticeably different, this should be considered a very strong piece of evidence for Spades hacking. | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
On June 07 2012 04:40 caradoc wrote: 1) are you using the same map? 2) what resolution is your screen set to? 3) are you clicking the minimap? I can't imagine it not working since your minimap is static. It's also relevant that your y axis is off as well. We don't know the sc2 minimap-map mapping algorithm yet, so the fact that it's different y coords could be very relevant (minimap is a square, game area is not a square, therefore the mapping algorithm isn't a square grid, and it may not even be a stretched square grid). It would be relevant counterevidence if you could reproduce a click .2 x units off with the same y coordinates on the same map at a reasonable resolution. Also, given conventional assumptions, in order for the click to be .3 units off, you'd need an resolution of at least 7466x4199 (or whatever) Done at 1920x1080 Replay file: http://drop.sc/192619 Apparently I'm a boss at minimap clicking, even saw one that was just 0.2 apart on the x, with the same y. 0:10 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=133.2,y=108.2 0:10 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=133.8,y=108.2 0:11 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=135.3,y=107.7 0:11 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=135.6,y=107.7 0:13 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=135.6,y=107.7 0:14 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=135.3,y=107.7 0:15 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=135.3,y=107.7 0:16 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=135.6,y=107.2 0:16 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=135.8,y=107.2 | ||
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recallsm
14 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8sjzP.png) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vac1V.png) | ||
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hinnolinn
212 Posts
On June 07 2012 04:45 TMOUllrich wrote: Perhaps we should stick to the same map that spades and lucifron played on and that tony did his analysis for, which was Daybreak. Also the point was x=117.9, y=73.1. We should recreate the same situation and not similar ones. Looks like it doesn't matter anymore. | ||
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Tewks44
United States2032 Posts
On June 07 2012 04:47 EtherealDeath wrote: Done at 1920x1080 Replay file: http://drop.sc/192619 Apparently I'm a boss at minimap clicking, even saw one that was just 0.2 apart on the x, with the same y. 0:10 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=133.2,y=108.2 0:10 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=133.8,y=108.2 0:11 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=135.3,y=107.7 0:11 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=135.6,y=107.7 0:13 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=135.6,y=107.7 0:14 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=135.3,y=107.7 0:15 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=135.3,y=107.7 0:16 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=135.6,y=107.2 0:16 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=135.8,y=107.2 I wish we had conclusive proof as much as anybody so we could end this saga, but sadly, this is evidence that the mini-map clicks are not conclusive. | ||
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dani`
Netherlands2402 Posts
On June 07 2012 04:47 recallsm wrote: I used a macro that clicked with exactly 1 pixel difference each time. tried both up-down and left-right. each time was consistent. ![[image loading]](http://postimage.org/image/cjkkgmwo1/) ![[image loading]](http://postimage.org/image/w07kryc6d/) #1: ![[image loading]](http://s16.postimage.org/4qtwonqoz/working.png) #2: ![[image loading]](http://s18.postimage.org/6u6ml4aw7/working2.png) Fixed for you. | ||
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desuduesdeus
Germany18 Posts
maybe look at the distances between spam clicks that Spades claims he did on the mini map and compare to what's the minimum distance between clicks on the mini map (1 pixel threshold). | ||
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TMOUllrich
England59 Posts
On June 07 2012 04:48 Tewks44 wrote: I wish we had conclusive proof as much as anybody so we could end this saga, but sadly, this is evidence that the mini-map clicks are not conclusive. It's not over till someone obtains x=117.9, y=73.1 on Daybreak (from the minimap). | ||
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Marradron
Netherlands1586 Posts
On June 07 2012 04:47 recallsm wrote: I used a macro that clicked with exactly 1 pixel difference each time. tried both up-down and left-right. each time was consistent. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Can you try your script at faster speeds ? Since the other examples seem to be spam clicking way faster. | ||
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