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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 07 2012 04:20 Marradron wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:15 caradoc wrote:On June 07 2012 04:12 Tewks44 wrote:Update from the reddit post If you look at the two clicks at 12:14, the x coordinates are 117.9 and 117.6. This is only .3 units apart and I believe this is impossible in any known resolution that normal people have on their computers. At 1600x900 my computer jumps 1.4 units for 1 pixel on the minimap. Can anyone here on TL confirm this? very similar to what I was just looking at. I think this is accurate, I'm confirming it now. The evendence was already quite overwhelming. But this should really seal the deal for everyone
The best thing about this is it silences all the annoying "it's not conclusive, bla bla bla reasonable doubt" arguments.
If it's true, then what Spades did is impossible without maphacks. Everything else can be explained away in some fashion, even if it is unreasonable, but this cannot.
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I want to say congrats to the dude who figured out about the minimap pixels vs real map units, and to the two dudes relentlessly shitting on eachother maybe take a step back. It happens to all of us, but this is getting you no where and the contrast right now between the best parts of this community (the reddit guy who has offered some very convincing new evidence) and you two is making you the laughing stock of this thread right now.
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On June 07 2012 04:13 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:01 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 03:54 JustTray wrote:On June 07 2012 03:50 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 03:46 hinnolinn wrote:On June 07 2012 03:44 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:37 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote:
That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse! Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely) This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough. So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever True, but at least to those of us that aren't coming into this assuming Spades is guilty, there is plenty of reasonable doubt here, and I like to at least believe I'm a reasonable person. As I've said a ton of times already, yes, a lot of doubt, a lot of suspicion, but no proof. Please stop using the term "proof" when none is needed. Your entire premise is false, therefore everything you say based on that premise is without merit. Yet you keep parroting it like eventually it'll be true. Read the posts on this page about standard of proof and please stop posting afterwards. Listen boy, I'm as much part of this community as you are, and if I say I want proof before I can stand by and watch you judge another player by his actions, then I want it. There's no question about that in a million years, and I hope you're bright enough to realize that my presupposition does not have to mirror yours. Stop being a fucking strawman and understand that if you want to tell me that my premise is wrong, you better fucking tell me why, as well. If you want to be part of this community, you shouldn't call people "boy". It is poor form and rude. And there is a overwhelming evidence that something fishy was going on in many of Spades games. There is plenty to look at and you can go back any review the thread if you want to form your theory on the matter. And proof is a subjective word and one that is not used often in law. Proving something requires a standard of evidence that is accepted, with rules. What you are demanding is someone provide you with a "smoking gun" that Spades is a hacker. However, law rarely works that way and if there were a legal action, we would not be required to provide a "smoking gun". In fact, if someone were to bring a legal action to prevent Spades from entering a touranment, they would not be required to prove he was a hacker "beyond a reasonable doubt". They would only need to prove that he was most likely hacking, or show a "preponderance of evidence", since it would be a civil action. I feel there is a preponderance of evidence that Spades in hacking. It is more likley than not.
Sorry, but I get aggravated and I sometimes use the word "boy" when I take a lot of hits, especially when I say what I have to say and I share my opinion with others, only to be addressed in a vulgar manner, because they do not agree. I find this immature and frustrating, thank you.
Oh, and for your "proof is a subjective word", and all that good stuff. Here's a thread with another hacker, in which the opening post contains definitive proof for what he's done. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342704 Yep, not so subjective when your Stalkers start dancing Tango on their own, is it?
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Seems funny that long after Spades himself has thrown in the towel there's an endless amount of armchair experts willing and ready to prove his innocence.
The way I see it if Spades hasn't got the belly to fight and defend his own corner its probably time to move on and find another cause.
Its not just this thread either as there's an official WW retire/resign thread where Spades has hardly said a word.
A bit like someone who refuses to take the stand because they know they will end up hanging themselves.
I think Spades did the right thing by resigning his position not that he had any choice because WW would have had no choice to release him from their services if he hadn't.
Actually I have less respect for WW than I do for Spades because they implied this issue and the outcome has nothing to do with TL or the community when nothing could be further from the truth.
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On June 07 2012 04:21 intrigue wrote:can we find out what resolution spades plays in from his stream VODs? Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:15 caradoc wrote:On June 07 2012 04:12 Tewks44 wrote:Update from the reddit post If you look at the two clicks at 12:14, the x coordinates are 117.9 and 117.6. This is only .3 units apart and I believe this is impossible in any known resolution that normal people have on their computers. At 1600x900 my computer jumps 1.4 units for 1 pixel on the minimap. Can anyone here on TL confirm this? very similar to what I was just looking at. I think this is accurate, I'm confirming it now. edit: Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:20 artanis2 wrote:On June 07 2012 04:10 TMOUllrich wrote:This is a pretty nice *possible* breakthrough. Spades what resolution do you use ? The point is that you dont need to know the resolution, the two clicks shown in the OP are only .3 units apart on the x-axis, therefore he must have clicked on the terrain instead of the minimap. ah i see. tonycheese if this is true then this is the closest thing to proof we have, yes?
Beyond just being proof, I believe this method is scriptable and applicable to any replay where someone is suspected of maphacking.
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On June 07 2012 04:22 Marradron wrote:
The point is it should not even matter what resolution he uses since it is not possible to make such small increase in location on any minimap using any resolution.
The author of the article is not 100% sure of this fact, read carefully, however it can be tested for all available resolutions to check what the minimum increase is, it just takes time. If spades were to divulge his particular resolution it would speed up the search substantially.
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Whats also sad is that Blizzard doesn't have any sort of suspicious action checking implemented. With all the effort the community has to go through to prove Spades was hacking, a programmer could have done for us. Simple checks like selecting units that are not hotkeyed and not in vision, clicking the same co-ordinates too accurately, repeatedly, etc should be some simple indicators of suspicious behavior.
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On June 07 2012 04:20 artanis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:10 TMOUllrich wrote:This is a pretty nice *possible* breakthrough. Spades what resolution do you use ? The point is that you dont need to know the resolution, the two clicks shown in the OP are only .3 units apart on the x-axis, therefore he must have clicked on the terrain instead of the minimap.
I don't have SC2 installed at the moment, but has anybody checked to see what happens if you spam the same spot on the minimap, or move your mouse a pixel away and then move it back before clicking on the minimap again. Does this second dot show up at exactly the same place, or does the minimap select a spot from an area?
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On June 07 2012 04:23 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:13 Plansix wrote:On June 07 2012 04:01 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 03:54 JustTray wrote:On June 07 2012 03:50 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 03:46 hinnolinn wrote:On June 07 2012 03:44 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:37 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote:
That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse! Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely) This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough. So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever True, but at least to those of us that aren't coming into this assuming Spades is guilty, there is plenty of reasonable doubt here, and I like to at least believe I'm a reasonable person. As I've said a ton of times already, yes, a lot of doubt, a lot of suspicion, but no proof. Please stop using the term "proof" when none is needed. Your entire premise is false, therefore everything you say based on that premise is without merit. Yet you keep parroting it like eventually it'll be true. Read the posts on this page about standard of proof and please stop posting afterwards. Listen boy, I'm as much part of this community as you are, and if I say I want proof before I can stand by and watch you judge another player by his actions, then I want it. There's no question about that in a million years, and I hope you're bright enough to realize that my presupposition does not have to mirror yours. Stop being a fucking strawman and understand that if you want to tell me that my premise is wrong, you better fucking tell me why, as well. If you want to be part of this community, you shouldn't call people "boy". It is poor form and rude. And there is a overwhelming evidence that something fishy was going on in many of Spades games. There is plenty to look at and you can go back any review the thread if you want to form your theory on the matter. And proof is a subjective word and one that is not used often in law. Proving something requires a standard of evidence that is accepted, with rules. What you are demanding is someone provide you with a "smoking gun" that Spades is a hacker. However, law rarely works that way and if there were a legal action, we would not be required to provide a "smoking gun". In fact, if someone were to bring a legal action to prevent Spades from entering a touranment, they would not be required to prove he was a hacker "beyond a reasonable doubt". They would only need to prove that he was most likely hacking, or show a "preponderance of evidence", since it would be a civil action. I feel there is a preponderance of evidence that Spades in hacking. It is more likley than not. Sorry, but I get aggravated and I sometimes use the word "boy" when I take a lot of hits, especially when I say what I have to say and I share my opinion with others, only to be addressed in a vulgar manner, because they do not agree. I find this immature and frustrating, thank you. Oh, and for your "proof is a subjective word", and all that good stuff. Here's a thread with another hacker, in which the opening post contains definitive proof for what he's done. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342704 Yep, not so subjective when your Stalkers start dancing Tango on their own, is it?
If those are the standards of proof you require then online tournaments are doomed to fail.
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On June 07 2012 04:24 TMOUllrich wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:22 Marradron wrote:
The point is it should not even matter what resolution he uses since it is not possible to make such small increase in location on any minimap using any resolution. The author of the article is not 100% sure of this fact, read carefully, however it can be tested for all available resolutions to check what the minimum increase is, it just takes time. If spades were to divulge his particular resolution it would speed up the search substantially.
While what you say is true the author used already a high resolution and the minimum step was already 1.4. Even with a double resolution in both direction the minimum step would be 0.7. I doubt spades games at a 6400-4000 resolution computer.
Note that all of this is only true if the minimap stepsize scales linear with resolution
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On June 07 2012 04:24 TMOUllrich wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:22 Marradron wrote:
The point is it should not even matter what resolution he uses since it is not possible to make such small increase in location on any minimap using any resolution. The author of the article is not 100% sure of this fact, read carefully, however it can be tested for all available resolutions to check what the minimum increase is, it just takes time. If spades were to divulge his particular resolution it would speed up the search substantially.
If his resolution is less than 6400x3600 it should be proof 
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On June 07 2012 04:23 tonycheese wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:21 intrigue wrote:can we find out what resolution spades plays in from his stream VODs? On June 07 2012 04:15 caradoc wrote:On June 07 2012 04:12 Tewks44 wrote:Update from the reddit post If you look at the two clicks at 12:14, the x coordinates are 117.9 and 117.6. This is only .3 units apart and I believe this is impossible in any known resolution that normal people have on their computers. At 1600x900 my computer jumps 1.4 units for 1 pixel on the minimap. Can anyone here on TL confirm this? very similar to what I was just looking at. I think this is accurate, I'm confirming it now. edit: On June 07 2012 04:20 artanis2 wrote:On June 07 2012 04:10 TMOUllrich wrote:This is a pretty nice *possible* breakthrough. Spades what resolution do you use ? The point is that you dont need to know the resolution, the two clicks shown in the OP are only .3 units apart on the x-axis, therefore he must have clicked on the terrain instead of the minimap. ah i see. tonycheese if this is true then this is the closest thing to proof we have, yes? Beyond just being proof, I believe this method is scriptable and applicable to any replay where someone is suspected of maphacking.
Amazing find, THIS is why we don't close these threads prematurely.
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246 pages for new evidence to come up! Props to the pixel distance finder for the effort whether or not its legit.
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On June 07 2012 04:21 tonycheese wrote:
Hi guys. Apparently I did have a TL account after all. I was the one who posted on reddit about the minimap grid. I think it's pretty self-explanatory but if you have any questions you can ask me.
Holy shit bro, next lvl iq on that analysis.
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Thanks this scandal for bringing new comers to Team Liquid forums, I just find two gentlemen joining on June 6 and posting mainly on this topic or map hacking related topics. It just reminded me of anther ridiculous cheating accuse. That was quite fun when everything reveals.
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On June 07 2012 04:25 hinnolinn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:20 artanis2 wrote:On June 07 2012 04:10 TMOUllrich wrote:This is a pretty nice *possible* breakthrough. Spades what resolution do you use ? The point is that you dont need to know the resolution, the two clicks shown in the OP are only .3 units apart on the x-axis, therefore he must have clicked on the terrain instead of the minimap. I don't have SC2 installed at the moment, but has anybody checked to see what happens if you spam the same spot on the minimap, or move your mouse a pixel away and then move it back before clicking on the minimap again. Does this second dot show up at exactly the same place, or does the minimap select a spot from an area?
Here are my replays. You (or someone else) can see how the clicks look (I did do some spamming and going back and forth and whatnot): https://www.rapidshare.com/#!download|433|104782746|Minimap_clicking.zip|156
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On June 07 2012 04:22 Hollow27 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:20 Marradron wrote:On June 07 2012 04:15 caradoc wrote:On June 07 2012 04:12 Tewks44 wrote:Update from the reddit post If you look at the two clicks at 12:14, the x coordinates are 117.9 and 117.6. This is only .3 units apart and I believe this is impossible in any known resolution that normal people have on their computers. At 1600x900 my computer jumps 1.4 units for 1 pixel on the minimap. Can anyone here on TL confirm this? very similar to what I was just looking at. I think this is accurate, I'm confirming it now. The evendence was already quite overwhelming. But this should really seal the deal for everyone The best thing about this is it silences all the annoying "it's not conclusive, bla bla bla reasonable doubt" arguments. If it's true, then what Spades did is impossible without maphacks. Everything else can be explained away in some fashion, even if it is unreasonable, but this cannot.
Yeah, stupid people not jumping on a lynch bandwagon! We gotta silence those annoying people who wants "evidence" and "certainty" and stuff.
If this means what you suggest, great, then there is no longer a reasonable doubt. This is what should have been waited for prior to this huge community shunning.
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On June 07 2012 04:23 quarkle wrote:
I think Spades did the right thing by resigning his position not that he had any choice because WW would have had no choice to release him from their services if he hadn't.
Actually I have less respect for WW than I do for Spades because they implied this issue and the outcome has nothing to do with TL or the community when nothing could be further from the truth.
WW might have given Spades an option? as you say, if they were going to release him, it looks a lot better for him to leave the team.
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On June 07 2012 04:27 tonycheese wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:25 hinnolinn wrote:On June 07 2012 04:20 artanis2 wrote:On June 07 2012 04:10 TMOUllrich wrote:This is a pretty nice *possible* breakthrough. Spades what resolution do you use ? The point is that you dont need to know the resolution, the two clicks shown in the OP are only .3 units apart on the x-axis, therefore he must have clicked on the terrain instead of the minimap. I don't have SC2 installed at the moment, but has anybody checked to see what happens if you spam the same spot on the minimap, or move your mouse a pixel away and then move it back before clicking on the minimap again. Does this second dot show up at exactly the same place, or does the minimap select a spot from an area? Here are my replays. You (or someone else) can see how the clicks look (I did do some spamming and going back and forth and whatnot): https://www.rapidshare.com/#!download|433|104782746|Minimap_clicking.zip|156
Where can i find the replay of the spades game in question?
It seems to be the daybreak game.
Of the showmatch against lucyfron?
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On June 07 2012 04:25 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:23 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 04:13 Plansix wrote:On June 07 2012 04:01 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 03:54 JustTray wrote:On June 07 2012 03:50 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 03:46 hinnolinn wrote:On June 07 2012 03:44 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:37 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote:
That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse! Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely) This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough. So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever True, but at least to those of us that aren't coming into this assuming Spades is guilty, there is plenty of reasonable doubt here, and I like to at least believe I'm a reasonable person. As I've said a ton of times already, yes, a lot of doubt, a lot of suspicion, but no proof. Please stop using the term "proof" when none is needed. Your entire premise is false, therefore everything you say based on that premise is without merit. Yet you keep parroting it like eventually it'll be true. Read the posts on this page about standard of proof and please stop posting afterwards. Listen boy, I'm as much part of this community as you are, and if I say I want proof before I can stand by and watch you judge another player by his actions, then I want it. There's no question about that in a million years, and I hope you're bright enough to realize that my presupposition does not have to mirror yours. Stop being a fucking strawman and understand that if you want to tell me that my premise is wrong, you better fucking tell me why, as well. If you want to be part of this community, you shouldn't call people "boy". It is poor form and rude. And there is a overwhelming evidence that something fishy was going on in many of Spades games. There is plenty to look at and you can go back any review the thread if you want to form your theory on the matter. And proof is a subjective word and one that is not used often in law. Proving something requires a standard of evidence that is accepted, with rules. What you are demanding is someone provide you with a "smoking gun" that Spades is a hacker. However, law rarely works that way and if there were a legal action, we would not be required to provide a "smoking gun". In fact, if someone were to bring a legal action to prevent Spades from entering a touranment, they would not be required to prove he was a hacker "beyond a reasonable doubt". They would only need to prove that he was most likely hacking, or show a "preponderance of evidence", since it would be a civil action. I feel there is a preponderance of evidence that Spades in hacking. It is more likley than not. Sorry, but I get aggravated and I sometimes use the word "boy" when I take a lot of hits, especially when I say what I have to say and I share my opinion with others, only to be addressed in a vulgar manner, because they do not agree. I find this immature and frustrating, thank you. Oh, and for your "proof is a subjective word", and all that good stuff. Here's a thread with another hacker, in which the opening post contains definitive proof for what he's done. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342704 Yep, not so subjective when your Stalkers start dancing Tango on their own, is it? If those are the standards of proof you require then online tournaments are doomed to fail.
Yeah, but that's just me. I'm a good guy and I'd like to believe in the good of others until I know for sure.
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EPT
